immigration floodgates will not be opened.

[datasuspect]

i'm not really of the temperament to peruse biased INTERNET sources for biased statistics about anything, so i will speak generally.

but how on earth can switching a mass of people's immigration status from illegal to legal be detrimental to the economy?

"we're" here. mexicans are here, more will continue to come, and there isn't anything you can really do about it. and i say "we" because i have a spanish surname, am primarily identified as mexican or hispanic prior to any other description in this country (born in chicago illinois of mixed ethnic heritages), and well, i consider those people to be closer to me than the lords who rule us.

i've said it before, the average immigration "detractor" has more in common with the average undocumented worker than they do with corporate or political royalty. you're more likely to share a meal with your local landscaper, cook, or dishwasher than you would be to share a meal with the CEO of your company or your representative in congress.

diversionary tactic, pure and simple. the economy isn't imploding because of ANY people WORKING, it's imploding because the valuation of the dollar is based almost entirely on speculative mortgage bonds and other credit instruments. the economy is bad because it is PROFITABLE for the very few to have such conditions. the bottom is falling out, the economic witch doctors and their social class cashed out early on, and the average person is left holding the bag.

[Cleita]

1. Good points and those of us who aren't influenced by our

biases recognize that the immigration issue is a red herring thrown out before the election like abortion and gay marriage in past elections to tip the votes to the conservative candidates who unabashedly appeal to the prejudices of those who can't seem to overcome them. Nothing will be done, just like in those other issues when the election is over and the issue will disappear. In almost six years of being at DU I have seen it happen over and over.

[RB TexLa]

2. Every generation has people who accumulate money and/or power by telling people

what ethnic group is to blame for all that ails them

[EFerrari]

3. Agree but, imho, the workers who come here from Latin America

as economic refugees seem to come because of messed up US foreign policy in that region -- i.e., supporting corporations that rips them off there and us here. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing but I know here we had waves of folks from Nicaragua and El Salvador when Reagan was fighting his proxy wars there. And NAFTA has been a disaster for the whole region -- again, our policy necessitated the migration.

To then turn around and blame these people who are at bottom fleeing the consequences of our policies seems sort of strange to me. :shrug:

[Cleita]

4. I totally agree but suffice it to say that any one who has doubts

should read what Noam Chomsky has written about our foreign policy in Latin America which is based on the Monroe Doctrine. It's time to put that dusty old document out in the dinosaur pasture.

Also, blaming the victims of government policies seems to go with the territory and those sheep blinded by their prejudices follow right along until they vote in the next Republican neo-con into office who has no intention of righting the wrongs.

[EFerrari]

6. That's right. They exploit us here AND there. And then,

they morph immigration with terrorism to scare us into stupidity.

I, for the record, think illegal immigration is dangerous -- for the immigrants. I think our borders should be secured -- our ports, too -- that's just reasonable. And, it's not going to happen just as the levees in NOLA weren't really fixed.

I don't believe everyone who has a concern about illegal immigration is a racist. People have concerns. :shrug: But this whole debate has been used by the Republics to fan their racist base and sometimes it seems as though we get these different issues mixed up. How could we avoid it -- with all the disinfo that we are being inundated with?

The solution the SEIU came up with in Los Angeles makes much more sense to me: workers making common cause. It consolidates a coalition and gives management little wiggle room.

It's going to be a long, difficult debate. :(

[Cleita]

14. For those who don't remember what the Monroe Doctrine wa

about here's what Wikipedia has to say about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

[L. Coyote]

5. TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ

TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ

http://kennedy.senate.gov/newsroom/press_release.cfm

PDF File: http://kennedy.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/MDM07620_xml.pdf

[L. Coyote]

7. A thread for those who have read the proposed language

Senate Bill 1348 is much discussed, but who has read the text?
Perhaps this one DU thread could be limited to those who have.

TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = READ first, then comment.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x289114

[Cleita]

8. Thanks for the 628 pages. You won't mind if I take awhile to get

back to you. :) As far as Senator Kennedy is concerned he seems to show compassion however has said nothing about the root causes of this problem, our foreign policy in Latin America that backs corrupt governments who allow us to exploit their resources and attempts to overthrow and assassinate the leaders of governments who are trying to address the social problems in their countries that contribute to this exodus of their poor to our country.

[EFerrari]

10. I'll try to read it tonight. Sort of scared to read the tamale

but, better to know than not to know.

[Cleita]

12. My notes on the first scan and perusal. They are very rough and

I may have missed some things.

Title I—Border Enforcement and Title II—Interior Enforcement

(D)Worksite enforcement tools – page 8 of pdf document.

Refers to what we call the Green Card. All employers should be required to demand a verifiable one when hiring immigrants. My question is, what is to stop them from hiring employees and not entering them into the system or an under the table hire as they are called. Not putting a worker in the system enables a person to work here without the employer being caught and fined. It seems we need to expand our quotas to issue more green cards to meet the demand for these workers and to prevent them from being exploited by the employers.

It seems that improving the provisions of paragraph (D) would make the enforcements of (A), (B) and (C) unnecessary. I am not against providing 18,000 border guards, however, because it provides civil service jobs in a country where jobs are eroding. But that’s a socialist idea so ignore me.

Three fences to be built with roads in between. That should keep them out by land. Don’t know about by air and by sea. What an exercise in futility. However, on the plus side there are those jobs that will be created unless the building of the roads are subcontracted to Halliburton.

For those who resists a command from a law enforcement agent will get a fine and/or imprisonment of up to five years not to mention the special penalties that can incarcerate violators of immigration law up to twenty or thirty years. Yet Scooter Libby only gets 30 months in jail for a treasonous act. Talk about draconian measures.

About the building of detention facilites. Yes this also creates jobs, but certainly increasing the quotas so that not so many need to be detained would be a better solution. IMHO only those who have committed real crimes like drug trafficking should be detained. This should make further detention facilities unnecessary and are more alike concentration camps than not.

Establishment of a United States-Mexico border enforcement commission. What no United States-Canada border enforcement commission?

Felons and gang bangers? It seems this doesn’t belong in this document. Any law enforcement can claim that five or more immigrants consists of a gang is inviting abuse of the detainees by police who can designate anyone they please as gang bangers. This needs to be addressed separately, considering gangs that are in this country are mostly are formed on this side of the border. Gang bangers in Latin countries are doing well and don’t need to immigrate here.

Title III—Worksite Enforcement
I’m sceptical of letting the employer verify the documents. What we need is copies of the document, mainly the Green Card type work permit to be vetted by the INS directly whenever there is a hire. Also, there needs to be a way to do this quickly, which means more INS employees and modern electronic equipment. Since law enforcement agencies seem to be able to do this with driver’s licenses and other legal documentation and credit card companies do this instantly, I see no reason the INS and SSA can’t do this, too. The minute the middleman, the employer is allowed to do this through the I-9 and W-4 documents, it invites fraud. The EEVS will prove nothing. An alien can work under someone’s name and SS # if that person is willing to allow it.

The way I see it you need only two documents a Social Security card and a Green Card type work permit. Employers should verify the genuineness of both documents through the agencies that distribute them the Social Security Administration and the Immigration and Naturalization Service directly each time they hire an immigrant. It should be easy if both agencies are brought up to date both in personnel and electronically. All that other BS is just that BS and will continue the abuse of the system.

Good that the penalties have increased. I don’t know if it will make a big difference with the mega-corporations, who will probably outsource more than ever, but it should reign in the smaller companies and wealthy individuals who exploit the cheap labor offered by immigrants. It may be a step in the right direction.

Title IV—New Temporary Worker Program

Does this deposit to the treasury if the employer of Y immigrants doesn’t provide health insurance mean the the government will? Or do they just pocket the money? Just asking. At least it stipulates that the immigrant would be hired at the same wage and conditions that a native would be hired. So at least in theory it prevents that exploitation. Too bad the provisions against torture don’t extend to our prisoners of war.

I have mixed feelings about this. In a way I want these field laborers to be able to work without fearing La Migra. I worked alongside the braceros back in the fifties in the fields of So. California. For us American kids, It was our summer job. The pay was pitiful and the immigrant workers slept in the fields when we went home but at least they weren’t hunted down. We, as well as them, also had FICA and SDI taken from our checks back then.

I can see the abuse that can arise in the area of domestic and farm workers who don’t go home when their visas are up and they are liable to slip throught he cracks in the system. This extends to British, Irish and Scandanavian nannies too as well as the hispanic ones. I feel, either give them a work visa with permanent residency as the need for immigrant workers arises or forget about it. Why send the farm workers home if they don’t want to go home? They follow the crop harvests around the country anyway. I don’t like the possibilities at all.

My skin crawls when I read Homeland Security. I wish they weren’t involved.

Title V—Immigration Benefits

Merit based immigration IMHO is just plain wrong. Why bring over a bunch of professionals to compete with our professionals, when it’s the menial labor that we need? The old system of having an employer verify that he couldn’t find an American as well qualified as the immigrant he wants to bring over worked quite well until now. Why change?


Title VI—Nonimmigrants In the United States Previously In Unlawful Status.

This is of course amnesty, which I suppose is better than rounding up the millions of them, putting them in detention camps and then deporting them. I don’t like the fines. It opens up a business opportunity for predatory lenders who make their money on the backs of the poor. This must have come from the Republican side of the aisle who can’t punish economic victims enough these days just because they broke an unjust law.

Title VII—Miscellaneous

Declaration of English as the national language. Well, that went over so well in Canada and Great Britain. :sarcasm: Why don’t we try it here. :dunce:

[TahitiNut]

9. Then what??

Oh gosh golly gee it's just too much trouble to think about so what the fuck just call 'em "legal" so I can go back to watching American Idol but I don't care so you're all racists they're just people I like people that mow my lawn for cheap and it doesn't hurt me so open the borders but what about the children and we're all illegal anyway and I don't want to think about it pass the pizza and who cares and I want to be friends with everyone so it's not fair and can't we all just get along and it's not my job that gets lost so vote for me and Nader is evil so where's my beer and what's my stock worth today.

:puke:

Then what?

[datasuspect]

11. alrighty then

i still think its important to see who the REAL enemies are.

hint: it's the people who parade "non-issues" as real problems all while they continue to steal from the most vulnerable.

and the REAL enemy isn't anybody who posts on this board. people who manipulate currency markets and control federal reserve policies probably aren't spending much time hurling absurdities at each other in cyberspace.

[Cleita]

13. You're wrong. There is a well paid cadre hired by publicists who

in turn are hired by lobbyists to do just that, not only for this issue but health care, gay marriage and abortion. After awhile you learn to spot them.

[datasuspect]

15. you're probably right

i just wonder how effective a poster on any public board truly is.

if what you say is true, then they are functionaries and can be exposed with sunlight.

[Nick at Noon]

16. Because that mass will multiply

but how on earth can switching a mass of people's immigration status from illegal to legal be detrimental to the economy?

When Jose becomes legal he will send for Maria. She will bring along little Maria, Juan and Roberto. Maria and Jose will both bring their parents and their parents other children to the land of plenty.

In ten years that 12 million "mass" you refer to will be up to 30 or 40 million. Can our social services, prisons and education system handle that strain ?

[datasuspect]

17. there's something vaguely offensive about your post

would you refer to black people generically as "shanequa" or "tyrone?"

people seem to take many "colorful" liberties where it concerns latinos lately.

must be all the fear-mongering rhetoric like what you posted.

[pampango]

18. If we shared a border with a Black Third World country it would

make the immigration discussion here quite a bit more interesting, wouldn't it?

Given our culture and history, it seems to be much easier to take support actions that target Hispanics or Asians than if Blacks were the targets. You wouldn't be able to keep the racism charges suppressed for long, even here at DU, if history has produced Haiti just across our southern border and Mexico was an island in the Carribean.

[datasuspect]

19. yeah it would

i suppose they save THAT invective for family time and private use.

[Nick at Noon]

21. No more offensive than your post is to me.

I find it offensive when another American is willing to give MY country away to anybody who wants to claim a share whether they have a right to it or not.

Suppose a man walks by your house tonight and decides that he prefers your car to his, or your wife to his. Or maybe he has had a bad day and wants to sleep in your bed. Does he have the right to make himself at home and takes what he wants ? That is the right that many people like you demand for the Mexican who has entered my country illegally.

When the Founders drew up the Great Document of this country their first words were --- "We the People of the United States.... " . They did not feel any need to add "... and the People of Mexico....or wherever".

[treestar]

20. John and Mary reproduce, too

And their ancestors came from somewhere else, too.

Migration happens. Being in the place where migration is to, not from, is an advantage, not a disadvantage. It's a sign of having the most active economy.

John and Mary, Juan and Maria, and their kids all buy their clothes here and their houses and send their kids to school here and that employers teachers, real estate agents, and car salesman. For a start.