I can't beleive the digusting things I've read here about the Duke rape case the last few days

[ButterflyBlood]

People are actually saying things along the lines of:

1-No matter what the evidence says, the boys are obviously guilty because they are rich and white.
2-The boys probably aren't guilty, but they should be prosecuted anyway just because poor people are unfairly prosecuted.
3-There was no rape at that party, but they hired a stripper, so they deserve to be prosecuted just for that (A sentiment the Taliban and Christian Coalition no doubt would share)

This is hardly too far from the type of crap you'd find at Free Republic. Hell this way of thinking leads to exactly the type of reasoning this "administration" uses to justify torture and indefinitely locking up "enemy combatants" at Gitmo. This whole case shows exactly the type of flaws that can arise in the judicial system when you have prosecutors willing to lie, hide evidence and make a mockery of the whole system, much like Gonzo's department. Yet some here want to overlook all that and just take a knee-jerk position to lynch the innocent boys just because of their race and class. Which of course, is the type of thing the Freepers do all the time.

[bunkerbuster1]

1. And I'm tired of the ridiculous amount of attention this case has received.

Sucks, huh?

[onenote]

78. yet you managed to be the first to comment on it.

Must not be as tired as you thought.

[Atman]

2. You can't?

And you have over a thousand posts? You obviously haven't been paying close attention to DU over the years.

:hi:

.

[ChoralScholar]

3. Wow ... that's not what I was expecting to read in this thread....

I haven't read any posts at all - is this really what's being said?

[Iris]

4. No different than a lot of crap said on this board about women and minorities who find themselves

in equally precarious and/or humiliating circumstances.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. "Two wrongs make a right" is hardly a good standard n/t

[Iris]

8. Well, I just find it interesting when a man all of a sudden realizes that some posts are insensitive

It's not about 2 wrongs making a right. I've made exactly 1 post about that rape case, but I have seen many, many posts against people in similar situations and been attacked for defending them.

So, if your feathers are ruffled, then welcome to the club.

[Bjornsdotter]

9. Nicely done

:toast:

You said it better than I could.

[Iris]

13. thank you. I'm trying to build up a think skin for this one.

But it's nice to have some support!

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Which "one"? The topic this thread is about?

Or the topic you would like it to be about?

[Iris]

15. For this particular post. Care to comment about it? n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Yeah. I think you're trying to make it ALL ABOUT YOU.

It's not ALL ABOUT YOU. :hi:

[Iris]

20. I hardly think I made it all about me, but you seem to be doing a good job of making it all about

you.

I simply made the point that the same phenomena can be observed on various other threads where the people being discussed happen not to be male or white. And, I'm not the only person around who is not male. And I'm sure there are plenty of others around who are not white. And even some who are neither white, nor male.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. The "same phenomena"?

Okay, I promise you- the VERY NEXT TIME anyone on DU is arguing that someone- who is not male or not white- that is deliberately accused of a crime they didn't commit "deserves to be punished anyway" simply because they're not male or not white, I will call it for the bullshit it is. Okay?

But I challenge you to find me one single example of that.

[Madspirit]

48. Thank-you!

...and just btw, with what evidence there is, I don't think they should be prosecuted and I don't think hiring a stripper makes them moral miscreants and I STILL don't have to like THOSE particular boys. ...and I still don't have to feel particularly sorry for them.

As you pointed out, it happens to minorities ALL the time. That's what justice looks like to minorities. No, I'm not saying two wrongs make a right but THESE boys got off, uncharged, ultimately. If the defendants were minorities they wouldn't see the light of day for years.

When you look upon women as pieces of meat and one of those pieces of meat happens to also be a traumatized, PTSD, sexual abuse victim with a history of mental illness, well...dang. Shit happens. THESE BOYS ARE FREE. Minorities in the SAME situation would not be free for a long long time.

They have no need to whine. They'll be raking in all the money from the book deals and all the good ol' boys offering up jobs and etc.

Give me a break. The shoe, one little time, being on the other foot....and STILL turning out all right, just isn't one of the things I'm going to get all bent about. I won't lose any sleep for those boys.
Lee

[Iris]

156. Not only that, one of the boys received a "Distinguished Almuni" award from his high school.

How's that for a "ruined life".

You bet this pisses me off and I won't keep quiet about it.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Some folks need to get their 2 minutes hate in. It's sort of sad.

Like the people fantasizing about Paris Hilton being guillotined for being born rich. It's the ravings of frustrated, angry little minds with an axe to grind.

[tularetom]

7. There are a lot of people sitting their ass on death row

who are just as innocent as these Rollo the Rich Kids but lack the resources and the connections to get their cause heard. So why the fuck should I waste my sympathy on these little twits? They'll get along just fine without me feeling sorry for them because their daddies will pull strings for them throughout their life.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Do you have any reason to believe that NOT prosecuting these boys for something they didn't do

is going to harm the cause of innocent poor people on Death Row?

I would think that the cause of one innocent person unjustly accused would be the cause of ALL innocent people unjustly accused. But, then, I don't run around carrying bucketfuls of bile for people who have more money than I do.

[tularetom]

22. Um, what these guys were facing was a lot less severe

than getting fried for a crime you didn't commit. But I also don't believe that no matter how overzealous and ultimately incompetent Nifong was, that what happened at that party was totally innocent either. I was a college athlete in a non-scholarship sport 40 years ago and I know what took place at our parties. And we had no assurance that our daddies could pull strings and keep our asses out of trouble.

I don't resent those who have more money than I do, but I do kind of flinch when they throw it in my face like that Evans kid's parents did at that press conference I saw right after the charges were filed.

[Sadie4629]

27. I didn't see the press conference

What was said that was so offensive to you?

[Tulum_Moon]

35. I don't remember the press conference

Could you please elaborate?

Thanks.

[mondo joe]

19. Because equality and justice are good things.

Sometimes DU is just the Bizarro version of FR.

:eyes:

[OzarkDem]

38. Especially when

they're applied to everyone, regardless of race, income, gender or athletic ability.

[mondo joe]

44. Indeed - equality, regardless of race, income, gender and

athletic ability.

REGARDLESS.

[OzarkDem]

101. And they got their day in court

they got equal treatment. That doesn't change the fact that many people think they are still scum based on their actions that night, before and since then. We're entitled to our opinions. Get over it.

[mondo joe]

108. No one said you're not entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

:-)

[tammywammy]

21. Just because I agree with Nifong's disbarrment

and how the case finally ended up, doesn't mean that I can't have outrage for other innocent men/women in jail.

Any, and I mean any DA that acts the way Nifong did deserves to be disbarred.

[Sadie4629]

23. It isn't so much about them being innocent

as it is about the way in which they were railroaded. Many innocent people are in prison, but have been given fair trials, and fair prosecutions. There was never anything fair about this thing.

[tularetom]

24. Fair trials? Ya mean like the guy in Texas whose attorney slept

through the trial? Or the guy who was advised by his court appointed attorney to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty? Sorry, but these guys were not railroaded. They may have been convicetd in the court of public opinion but if I remember correctly they never spent a day in jail. It ain't the same.

[tammywammy]

25. But, can't you be outraged about those cases

and this case at the same time? Does outrage only go so far to you?

These guys weren't railroaded, because someone else finally took over and the media reported so much about it. They could have been though, isn't that worrisome enough. :shrug:

[Sadie4629]

26. Just because those people were wrongly convicted

doesn't excuse what Nifong did (or attempted to do) to three people he probably KNEW to be innocent. Did you know that there were death threats made against them? With the racial tensions he knowingly whipped up, those young men could have easily been convicted and spent many years in prison.

[noamnety]

34. Are you equally outraged

at the death threat the Duke man wrote? Are you equally outraged at the misogynitic tensions that man knowingly whipped up?

"i plan on killing the bitches"

Or have you saved ALL your outrage for the death threats against the white men, and have NONE for the death threats they were making against women of color?

[Sadie4629]

49. Were they specific threats?

Were they made to specific women? If not, then they are not credible.

[Mike Daniels]

50. Not to mention that the threat in question wasn't even written by the accused

But like so much other non-evidence in this case that tends to be overlooked by those still pissed that three white boys "got away with something" whatever that evidence challenged "something" may be.

[noamnety]

53. Specific threat, yes

Email summary: I will invite these women to this location, I plan to kill them, here is how I plan to kill them, do you want to show up?

I'll take your response as a "no - I am more outraged by falsified evidence against perpetrators of hate speech than I am by a written threat to invite women over, kill the "bitches" and skin them."

[LisaL]

62. Oh give me a break. That e-mail was not a specific threat.

It was a private e-mail send to friends, who all understood it was a joke.

[OzarkDem]

66. That's pretty specific

and indicative of the groupthink among the players. They got their day in court and they won. But don't expect the community to rally around them.

[onenote]

81. does anyone have a link to the full text of the email?

From what has been reported, I regard the email as the work of a jackass, not necessarily a specific threat. But I think that it is impossible to judge the email without actually reading it in it entirety. The student who wrote was reinstated to school because it was determined that the email was actually a very poor effort at humor, based in part on the book "American Psycho". Whether or not that is the case is something that I doubt anyone can determine without actually seeing the entire email.

Link anyone?

[OzarkDem]

97. Smoking Gun

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

[onenote]

105. doesn't have the text of the email

just the warrant, as far as I can tell.

[OzarkDem]

111. Check links

I'm sure if they were making it up, the court would have thrown the book at them for it. They didn't.

Why don't you go to the local RNC and get some donations to launch a legal attack on the court for it.

[OzarkDem]

36. Agree

They're not model citizens and no one should be surprised if people are turned off by those who would cast them as innocent victims, pure as the driven snow.

[mondo joe]

69. Is justice and equality supposed to be reserved for "model citizens"?

That's the same crappy thinking that says a prostitute can't be raped.

[OzarkDem]

83. Are you deliberately missing the point

or just incapable of processing the information?

As many of us have repeated here, no one is disputing the verdict for the players.

Just don't ask us to rally around them or consider them heroes or martyrs. They're sick people who have problems and a history of ignoring the rights of others, as well as flouting the law.

[mondo joe]

89. Which of the three accused players ignored the rights of others?

?

[NaturalHigh]

121. In this case at least, they were "innocent victims".

Hiring a stripper and making lewd and/or racist comments doesn't make a person deserving of rape charges, although I'm sure there will be some who disagree.

[LisaL]

128. The three accused didn't even make any lewd/or racist comments.

And two of them left the party early.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. 'innocent kids'

They're adult men

[Warren DeMontague]

12. And so they're guilty of... what?

being adult men?

[Mike Daniels]

16. Fine, innocent adult men who did nothing illegal based on evaluation of the evidence.

but found themselves facing charges of rape because of an unethical DA and the word of a mentally unbalanced individual.

That work better for you?

[noamnety]

32. It's good to remember

that the words "unethical" and "mentally unbalanced" also apply to the duke player who wrote:

tomorrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. i plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex

That's not evidence of a crime, but no starched shirt and tie can dress the ugliness that wrote those words.

I would not call them "fine." Maybe you look at that email, and it looks like "fine" to you. They were some sick hateful bastards - the guy who wrote it, and those who received it and a) didn't report it at the time they received it, and b) decided to show up to the event, after getting that invitation.

[Mike Daniels]

51. And that one person was not one of the accused

That he was on the team is not, in and of itself, an indication that the accused shared his opinions or agreed with what he did.

It's only proper that the men in question were found innocent and are now free to put this behind them. I also hope that they stick the screws to Nifong and anyone else who advanced the charges.

[LisaL]

55. What event?

This was not written before the party.

[noamnety]

59. maybe I have to go back and look at the dates.

How many of the players reported it?

[LisaL]

63. Reported what?

It was obviously not meant to be taken seriously.

[OzarkDem]

107. Mind reading?

Get over it, folks. Your guys had their day in court, paid their lawyers and won their case.

That doesn't entitle them to the respect and admiration of the community. If they want our respect, they'll have to earn it. In the meantime, they and their supporters should stop harassing everyone who doesn't agree with them and get on with their lives.

[mondo joe]

110. If you are harassed, hit the ALERT button. DU has rules.

Please note, simply disagreeing or asking questions is not harassment.

[OzarkDem]

114. Thanks for the reminder

I think I will make use of it.

[noamnety]

150. I report that stuff.

If there's a threat of violence, and no indication in the note that it's a "joke" (WTF @ that "joke"), I report it.

Hate crimes happen, and these fellows seem to have some issues with hate. Let the authorities sort out if it's a "joke" or not. Glad you feel qualified to make that judgment, that these guys aren't capable of hate crimes or violence.

[jberryhill]

151. It Is Evidence That The Author Saw The Movie "American Psycho"

The two WOMEN who wrote the screenplay were not "guys".

If it is your opinion that the WOMEN who wrote that screenplay were "sick hateful bastards", then you are entitled to your opinion about what drove those WOMEN to write that screenplay, to which the email in question is a reference.

So if you are going to call out Mary Harron and Guinevere Turner, who wrote the damned screenplay, then you might mention the fact that they ARE NOT MEN.

And the email was not an "invitation" to anything. It was written after the team had collectively been accused of a crime that they had not committed.

[OzarkDem]

40. Complain all you want

Most people here are not going to see these kids as upstanding citizens. They were and are an accident waiting to happen.

[NeedleCast]

68. True!

We should just arrest them now. You know, to prevent the future crimes you're sure they'll commit. From what I can infer from your posts on this topic, we should go ahead and pick up all male "jocks" at universities country-wide because they're all just a bunch of beer swilling, racist frat-boys. Maybe we can make an exception for acedimc All-Americans or something, I'm sure they're less likely to grow up to be criminals.

Maybe we can make like, a wheel-of-fortune type wheel where the jocks spin the wheel to find out what future crime they'll be charged with and we can just skip straight to the sentencing phase?

[OzarkDem]

84. Take it

to freeperland, I'm sure you'll have a more receptive audience there.

[mondo joe]

17. Because no one ever refers to people in college as "kids".

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

28. Can we all agree to stop calling it a "rape case"?

There was no rape.

There was no case.

This was an incident of misconduct by a prosecutor. A scandal.

[noamnety]

58. I'll continue to call it that.

It was a rape case without evidence to move forward.

I'll continue to call my sister's rape a rape case, even though the prosecutor didn't move forward.

If you were raped, there was no DNA evidence and you couldn't prosecute, you would refer to your own case as a rape case.

[live love laugh]

103. Common sense prevails. nt

[NaturalHigh]

122. I take it then, that you believe Crystal Mangum's story?

By the way, there was DNA evidence in this case from several "donors" - they just didn't match any of the Duke lacrosse players.

[noamnety]

29. Is this one of those posts

where the OP deliberately misrepresents and sensationalizes other people's statements in order to feign outrage?

'Cause I gotta say, I'm highly doubtful that anyone has ever said on this board they are "obviously guilty because they are rich and white."

I'm highly doubtful anyone has ever said on this board that we should prosecute people who probably aren't guilty "just because poor people are unfairly prosecuted."

[Lex]

31. Yes. It's just MADE UP.

I've ask for links that DUers said such a thing.

[Lex]

30. PLEASE USE A LINK to demonstrate

your allegations

You said DU'ers posted the following:

"1-No matter what the evidence says, the boys are obviously guilty because they are rich and white.
2-The boys probably aren't guilty, but they should be prosecuted anyway just because poor people are unfairly prosecuted."

LINKS to show DU'ers posted those 2 things?

[OzarkDem]

33. With sexual violence epidemic on college campuses

and the history of these "boys" prior criminal records, excessively abusing alcohol, hiring strippers, etc. I don't know how you raise your kids, but I wouldn't consider these kids to be model students.

There's legitimate concern that the overzealous attempts to "cleanse" these "angels" and vilify the prosecutor will have a very nasty backlash in the ever growing problem of sexual violence against women on campuses. Its necessary to look at the "big picture here" and weigh the collateral affects of this entire sordid mess.

Those kids rights have been protected, it still doesn't make them model citizens or even martyrs. They're some sick kids who need intervention. Their behavior should be condemned not praised.

[marions ghost]

41. yes this is what bothers me too

making these boys out to be heroes (and fine upstanding citizens)is bizarre. It's narcissistic overcompensation on the part of the principals in the case and the onlookers, IMO.

This has a direct impact on how women are treated in general. Blowing a case like this up has very big repercussions.

[noamnety]

147. It is bizarre

Their email was some filthy ugly shit worthy of KKK members. There is NOBODY in my circle of friends that would consider that a light-hearted joke, and I am having a hard time understanding that others here on DU read that email and think it's humorous. What do they do, circulate lynching jokes amongst themselves when they aren't on DU? Send each other jokes about raping sweat shop workers? I just don't understand that sort of hate speech against people with less privilege being passed off as humor, or the folks that see it as humor and bonding being described as "fine" young men.

"You hate them cause they are rich and white" nicely avoids any responsibility for their behavior. I hate them because they are rich white men who think it's good fun to be racist sexist assholes, yelling racist slurs at people, buying women like they are property for group consumption and humiliation, and who think it's good sport and humor to talk about killing and skinning black women.

I do hope that's clear.

I wasn't one of the people dancing on Falwell's grave when he died, but I am relieved that there's one less voice of hate and bigotry in the world. I won't shed any tears over him.


When Larry Flynt dies, I'll be glad that misogynistic asshole is dead. Even if he didn't break any laws.

When these Duke guys finally die, I won't dance on their grave, but I'll be happy there's that many less bigoted assholes who get their jollies exploiting those with less privilege in the world.

When the DUers who insist on calling women whores and sluts and bitches die, I won't dance on their graves, but I'll be glad their slurs are silenced as well.

I can do all that, and still feel that they were legally entitled to a fair trial without trumped up evidence. Funny how I can manage to have two thoughts at once, eh?

Kinda like when that Phelps kid got busted for standing on a flag, I supported his constitutional rights, but I didn't feel any particular empathy for him, and I don't think he's a freaking hero. The world would be a better place without that whole clan.

[jberryhill]

152. What Do You Have Against Women Screenwriters?

The authors of the screenplay for American Psycho, on which the email is based, are both women.

Here's one of your "KKK Members":



And here's the other one:



Why do you hate them so much?

Here, as long as you are on "Hate Women Authors Week", have some more of the work of these two women:


Harold, it's Bateman, Patrick Bateman. You're my lawyer so I think you should know: I've killed a lot of people. Some girls in the apartment uptown uh, some homeless people maybe 5 or 10 um an NYU girl I met in Central Park. I left her in a parking lot behind some donut shop. I killed Bethany, my old girlfriend, with a nail gun, and some man uh some old faggot with a dog last week. I killed another girl with a chainsaw, I had to, she almost got away and uh someone else there I can't remember maybe a model, but she's dead too. And Paul Allen. I killed Paul Allen with an axe in the face, his body is dissolving in a bathtub in Hell's Kitchen. I don't want to leave anything out here. I guess I've killed maybe 20 people, maybe 40. I have tapes of a lot of it, uh some of the girls have seen the tapes. I even, um... I ate some of their brains, and I tried to cook a little. Tonight I, uh, I just had to kill a LOT of people. And I'm not sure I'm gonna get away with it this time. I guess I'll uh, I mean, ah, I guess I'm a pretty uh, I mean I guess I'm a pretty sick guy. So, if you get back tomorrow, meet me at Harry's Bar, so you know, keep your eyes open.

[noamnety]

154. I'm sorry, I'm sure there's a connection in your head somewhere

Between people who use hate slurs, and those who depict characters who use them.

I'm not quite limber enough to make that stretch with you, though.

[jberryhill]

158. Really?

I thought it was violent literature that inspired this sort of thing.

However, one of the common failings of electronic communications divorced from a social context, is that this was an email sent from one person (not accused of anything, btw) to people who knew him, and probably understood that it was a take-off on the movie.

The proof of that proposition is that nobody showed up at his room to skin anyone alive the next day, so they probably did understand it to be a reference to the movie, written by women, that they had just seen.

The author of the email is a "person", and not a "people".

[Stinky The Clown]

153. Here's a little more about one of these fine, innocent 'boys' .... a little gay bashing ......

D.C. Judge Convicts Duke Athlete In '05 Fight



Collin Finnerty, one of the Duke University lacrosse players charged with raping a stripper at an off-campus party this year, was convicted yesterday on an unrelated assault charge stemming from a street fight last year in Georgetown.

Finnerty, 19, was placed on probation for six months and faces up to 30 days in jail if he gets into trouble during that time -- a typical penalty for a first-time misdemeanor conviction.

The sentence by D.C. Superior Court Judge John H. Bayly Jr. capped two days of testimony and argument about the Nov. 5 fracas, which probably would have been consigned to the courthouse archives if not for Finnerty's subsequent indictment in Durham, N.C.

But when Finnerty was charged with raping the stripper hired for a team party, prosecutors in the District -- who had agreed to drop the misdemeanor assault charge if Finnerty, stayed out of trouble -- said they were going to go forward with the case.

snip ...... much more at link

Essentially, he was charged with assaulting a gay guy in Georgetown. Seems like this fine 'youngster' left Georgetown under a cloud, too.

[jberryhill]

167. Oh, the irony...

Actually it was a "homophobe bashing".

Richard Bloxsom, the person in question, actually hired a lawyer to deal with press inquiries when this thing came out after the Duke incident, and to point out, repeatedly, that he is "not gay".

Bloxsom's lawyer even went to the Washington Blade, to persuade them to run an article on how "not gay" Bloxsom is:

http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=6308

Lawyer for lacrosse player's victim: D.C. attack wasn't bashing

Bloxsom’s attorney, Chip Royer, said Bloxsom “is not gay” and has a girlfriend.
<...>
D.C. prosecutors did not treat the attack as a hate crime, said U.S. Attorney spokesperson Stephanie Bragg Lee, because the circumstances didn’t warrant hate crime status.

"It was an argument between two young guys who were sizing each other up," she said. "Both sides had an equal portion of discussion, so we felt it wasn’t specifically a hate crime. So we waived the option there."


It was being called gay, that got things heated up on Bloxsom's end.

Can you imagine how Bloxsom must feel? He spends good money on a lawyer to make sure everyone knows he is "not gay and has a girlfriend", and he will forever be known as the "gay guy in Georgetown".



:rofl:

[Stinky The Clown]

168. Be all of that as it may .... the essential fact is ......

... Finnerty already had a court beef for some flavor or another of assault or bashing, or whatever, already adjudicated and set aside ... until he again got himself mixed up in some shit.

Maybe coincidence ..... maybe not.

[jberryhill]

169. Problem is...

Finnerty, like Seligman left the house to avoid getting "mixed up in shit".

http://www.ncdoj.com/DocumentStreamerClient?directory=PressReleases/&file=SummaryConclusions.pdf

While the dancers were still at the house, Collin Finnerty walked to 1105 Urban Street, a nearby
house rented by other Duke students. At 12:22 a.m. Finnerty made a 2-minute call to a fellow
lacrosse player using his cell phone. At 12:27 a.m. another lacrosse player called Finnerty’s cell
phone looking for him. Finnerty told the player that he was at 1105 Urban St., and that player
walked to the house and met Finnerty there.

Finnerty called Domino’s Pizza at 12:30 a.m. and again at 12:33 a.m. Finnerty and three other
players walked from 1105 Urban St. to Cosmic Cantina restaurant where they ordered food and
paid at 12:56 a.m.


That's what the investigation showed.

I understand that you may not be a veteran of the Duke Lacrosse War I, but the only reason these three were fingered was that the "victim" couldn't pick anyone out of a photo lineup. So, on the second try of the photo lineup, Nifong gave her a "can't miss" lineup consisting *only* of the lacrosse players (with the exception of the one African American who was at the party), and essentially told her to pick three.

Of the three she picked, Seligman was documented using an ATM elsewhere at the time of the alleged assault, and Finnerty claimed to have been at a Mexican restaurant. I don't know if his alibi was ever run to ground, as the prosecution timeline started shifting around wildly because it kept running into contradictions.

But, yes, an 18 year old and his friends got into a shouting match with a "not gay and has a girlfriend" guy and his friend across a street after last call in Georgetown.

I just get a chuckle every time someone calls the Bloxsom thing a "gay bashing", because I can't imagine what kind of person would bother to hire a lawyer to run around media outlets proclaiming he's "not gay and has a girlfriend". Bloxsom is the world's most famous "not gay" man.

[marions ghost]

170. "buying women for group consumption and humiliation"

and racist & sexist "humor" defended as ordinary behavior...

We have sunk to a new societal low if these are "fine young men" bonding with each other...

I couldn't agree more, lwfern:hug: --this is not a group I want my daughter to be associated with. YUK!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

165. Rodney King was a convict & a drunk driver. Yet he was still a symbol for police brutality.

These kids had an overzealous prosecutor go after them, hiding clear exculpatory evidence, bending the rules on a trumped-up case.

Yes, they ARE 'martyrs', martyrs for everyone who is charged with something they clearly didn't do.

As for "excessively abusing alcohol" or even "hiring strippers", maybe you think that makes them "sick", I think it makes them fairly typical college students. They may be something of a bunch of yahoos, but being a yahoo doesn't make you a pathological menace to society.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Yeah, But It Isn't From A Many As You'd Think. The Ignorant Few Are Just Simply Repetitive And Vocal

The overwhelming majority of DU'ers recognize it as overblown attention seeking ignorant rhetoric, so I wouldn't sweat it.

[Lex]

39. I can't find a single link where DU'ers said

"1-No matter what the evidence says, the boys are obviously guilty because they are rich and white.

2-The boys probably aren't guilty, but they should be prosecuted anyway just because poor people are unfairly prosecuted."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. I Think That's A Slight Exaggeration, But Same Overall Resentful Premise. And The Threads Went

*Poof* after a while. At least one of them did anyway.

But there were absolutely a few who were being way unfair and ridiculous in their resentments towards these kids due to their class and race. There were statements of "tough shit on them, boo hoo they were prosecuted unfairly, I'm glad they were cause poor people are" etc. Maybe not exact, but some pretty significant bullshit resentment was being thrown out them. I don't consider the OP's own interpretation of them to be that huge of a stretch actually. But regardless, it was only expressed by a few, though they tried to talk loudly.

[OzarkDem]

46. "Killing the bitches"

These guys were not upstanding citizens, their actions and comments are more than worthy of scorn and derision, regardless of how they were treated by the legal system.

"Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player. ..

"The e-mail from McFadyen's account notes that, after the strippers were killed, they would be skinned while the author was "cumming in my duke issue spandex." The e-mail is signed "41," which is McFadyen's jersey number."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Two Completely Separate Issues.

The context this OP is referencing is in relation to the charges themselves and the ridiculously ignorant declarations made by a few about those charges. Those things have absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not these kids could be criticized for other things or not. The focus was on the actual false rape charges and proceeding overzealous ridiculous prosecution.

Whether or not they've done other things that can be scorned is irrelevant in this context. It is about quite simply did they rape her, didn't they rape her. Did she file false charges of which she should now be imprisoned or didn't she? Are they innocent or weren't they?

And the fact is they were innocent. They didn't rape her. She should go to prison for the false accusation and horrible things she put them through. That's all this was about. Whether or not they were perfect citizens is irrelevant.

[noamnety]

54. lol @ your idea of justice

You've decided she is guilty and should go to prison without a trial?

What happened to HER rights?

The FACT is they weren't found guilty. I am guessing you haven't seen a lot of rape trials up close and personal if you believe "Either the accused is proven guilty or the accuser is guilty" as a binary thing. Most rape cases don't fall into either of those categories - you know that, right?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. It's Pretty Obvious She Made Shit Up. You Don't Think The Facts Have MORE Than Come Out Enough Yet?

If you actually want to think for a second that there hasn't been enough information put forth already to make such a deduction, than I believe it is more a matter of your tendency to defend no matter what simply because she's a woman. But I'm more than objective enough to make the call already. She falsely accused them and should go to prison for it. There is more than enough information ALREADY available for one to conclude that she lied and exaggerated REPEATEDLY, and had these innocent kids put through hell because of it. Falsely accusing others of rape is an absolutely disgraceful and shameful act, and a strong message should be sent that it's absolutely unacceptable. Yes, she should absolutely be in prison. That's just simply being objective to the FACTS of which MORE than enough have come out already. I believe you don't see it cause you don't want to; cause she's a woman. But I don't include gender in my process of objective deduction, and have no problem seeing it for what it is. Lock her ass up.

[mondo joe]

67. Inaccurate. "Weren't found guilty" doesn't cover it - they were exonerated.

[OzarkDem]

95. So what?

They had their day in court and won their verdict, let them go back to their lives and leave the rest of us alone.

They're not heroes, they're sick, perverted people. Their supporters need to accept that not everyone likes them and let it go. No one owes them or you anything.

The ongoing harping at members of this forum who don't see the students as nice people is beginning to border on abusive.

Back off. Everyone here is entitled to their opinion and those who don't share the same opinion as you about the quality of the students character don't deserved to be victimized just because we disagree.

We disagree and we have good reason to. You can't change that. Get over it.

[mondo joe]

99. Who ever said they LIKE the students? Not me. I don't know them.

What about them is SICK?

[OzarkDem]

115. Discussion over. nt/

[NaturalHigh]

123. I wouldn't want her to go to prison without a trial...

I would be perfectly satisfied with Crystal Mangum being charged with making a false report and going to trial.

[Forkboy]

42. Because a lot of people are only interested in their vision of justice,not justice itself.

[TahitiNut]

43. Their 'crime' was an error in judgment in not hiring Paris Hilton for their party.

:evilgrin:

WHENEVER an individual's gender, race, religion, or economic class affects our sense of justice we're demonstrating bias or bigotry, not justice.

[blondeatlast]

52. Indeed (regarding your message, not the SL).

If the most fortunate of us can't get justice (as in upper-middle class white males) the rest of us haven't a prayer in hell.

[marions ghost]

56. that's a common delusion...

but it's not the way things work. If there really were a fair justice system your theory might make some sense. But upper class white males (with big money) have ALL of the advantages. In any case you want to name, if you have serious money you will win far more often than not. This is especially true in white collar crimes, but it also influences violent crimes.

"Justice" is a romantic notion in America. You'd have to follow some cases in your local courts before you can really grasp that fact.

[LisaL]

57. By the way, Hilton does charge for appearing at parties and events, or so

I've heard from Talking Heads on TV. But it's supposedly hundreds of thousands, and stripping is not included.

[BornagainDUer]

172. LOL. I do believe you is a genius!!

[ComerPerro]

60. besides, we all know that black people, especially strippers, cannot be trusted. ever

surely there wasn't any badgering or harassment of the accuser by the defense, the police, and members of the community. Surely that never happend. And even if it did, I am certain that constant harassment wouldn't intimidate someone into backing down, would it?

[LisaL]

61. You seem to be completely clueless on what went on.

The community rallied behind the stripper.
And she actually never backed down, she wanted to proceed even after AG took over the case.
Maybe you should find out WTF you are talking about first.

[ComerPerro]

70. true, I never heard anyone anywhere say she was a liar or a slut or a whore druing the case

it never happened. At all.

[NeedleCast]

71. At a minimum, she was a liar

As to the rest, that's open to debate.

[LisaL]

73. I don't know who you heard saying it, but that community held

demonstrations and vigils in her support.

[ComerPerro]

74. its nice to see that the DU community cares about the rights of the falsely accused

good thing these two angels are the only two people in history ever to be falsely accused of something, eh?

[LisaL]

75. I haven't a faintest clue WTF you are talking about?

What two angels? Do you mean the two strippers?
What were they falsely accused of?

[ComerPerro]

79. no, I mean the falsely accused who everyone is falling all over themselves to kiss ass to

[LisaL]

85. There are three of them, not two.

[onenote]

90. now you're just trying to confuse things with facts

Don't you know that if you criticize the prosecution in this case you are clearly opposed to fair justice for anyone else?

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

91. three, two, who gives a fuck? But apparently you have to kiss ass

[LisaL]

96. Obviously not you. You think you can discuss something without

having a clue on the facts.
Do you have any clue WTF you are discussing?

[ComerPerro]

100. naturally, you have all the facts. But seriously, I am glad these defendants are the only ones ever

to be falsely accused of anything. Otherwise you might have to actually get out and fucking do something for real, rather than sit on your ass and pretend to give a shit.

[LisaL]

104. Right back at you. Maybe you should step away from your

computer and "fucking do something for real."
WTF are you doing here posting?

[ComerPerro]

Well, the OP implied that anyone who wasn't fawning over the Duke boys was a freeper

And I am not the one who is pretending to be a champion of the falsely accused.

Part of the reason I think you are so interested in kissing ass to these guys is because it is such an easy position to take.

[onenote]

119. you have a very fertile imagination

The OP simply stated his/her disgust at what he/she considered very negative comments about the outcome of the Duke case. If there was something in the OP that went beyond suggesting attacking the Duke students was wrong and actually took offense that people weren't "fawning" over them, I missed it. In the real world, its possible to object when people attack someone without demanding that they fawn over them. Here's an example. I think that the attacks on Bill Clinton for his dalliance with Monica Lewinsky were over the top. At the same time, that's a far cry from suggesting that people should've fawned over Bill.

[ComerPerro]

129. Well, considering that the OP wrongly claimed that those who don't fall in line are like freepers...

[Forkboy]

77. You repeatedly bring this up with no evidence whatsoever other than what's in your mind.

I hope you'll understand if I think that's a questionable source of truth,seeing as though you've provided nothing but your own prejudices so far.You have a storyline all made up,things you're convinced happened...but not one ounce of proof.

Do the things you bring up happen? Yup.

Did they happen here? Don't know.Why don't you give us some evidence to support your theory and we'll go from there.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

88. You personally don't even know how many people were accused.

[Forkboy]

94. Good counter argument. ABout what can be expected from you based on your posting history.

So I'll take that to mean you have zero evidence and it is just in your own head.

[ComerPerro]

98. just like cliche, bullshit groupthink is about all I can expect from you. Not suprising

So many people here get joy in pretending to care about things. That's why this case is so perfect. Rich people to kiss ass to, while you still get to pretend to be against the system.
And that's not even the best part. You also get to pretend that you care about the rights of the wrongly accused!

[Forkboy]

116. Well I least I pretend to care about the rights of the wrongly accused.

You can't even muster that much.

[ComerPerro]

125. that's where it stops with most people here. Pretending. Posing

[Forkboy]

133. You should try it.

It's better than not caring at all. :silly:

[ComerPerro]

135. Yeah, and you get to invoke moral superiority

[Forkboy]

137. Not hard to do at times.

[ComerPerro]

139. its the nice thing about pretending and posing, I admit

you know you are better than everyone else, but you don't have do actually do anything

[Forkboy]

145. I can see you've been busy today actually doing things.

Like posting online all day because you have issues with people you don't like being found innocent.

Way to get things done! You're making this a better country by the second!

[onenote]

140. seems better than adopting a position of moral inferiority

[ComerPerro]

143. Believe it or not, I'm holding a lot of my opinions back about the Duke sycophants

[Iris]

87. And don't forget, a black 17 year old boy getting a blow job is a SIN and a CRIME.

He should just go to jail for 10 years simply for putting himself in that situation.

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

92. actually, according to a very large group here, he should be beaten and tortured

[LisaL]

102. LOL.

I doubt you can find anyone, let alone a large group, saying he should have been beaten and tortured.

[ComerPerro]

106. try any sex offender thread. Shit like "_________ should be brutally beaten to death"

[LisaL]

112. I don't recall a single person on any thread claiming

Mr. Wilson should be brutally beaten, which is what you claimed.

[ComerPerro]

126. not what I said at all, but twist all you want.

[onenote]

131. I'm afraid you are the twisting champion here

In direct response to a post about the Wilson case, you said: "actually, according to a very large group here, he should be beaten and tortured."

"He" as in Wison. Not "according to a very large group here anyone who commits a sex crime should be beaten and tortured"

Shake it up baby...

[ComerPerro]

134. he is a sex offender, and according to many sex offenders should be tortured and imprisoned

without exception.

How much more simply do I need to state this in order for you to understand it?

[onenote]

138. you just need to admit that your original statement was misleading

and that you didn't mean to suggest what you clear did suggest -- which was that in specific refernce to the Wilson case loads of people have suggested that he be beaten and tortured.

If you want to extend and clarify your remarks that's fine. But don't pretend your post wasn't misleading when its obvious to any sentient being that it was.

[ComerPerro]

141. nothing misleading about it. Point is, many get so caught up in pretending to help children

that they make broad brush claims about "all sex offenders" and just jump into blindly supporting legislation that would do just that. Not only that, they even attack people for opposing it. So well intentioned or not, they are actively working to bring about policies that would lead to his torture and 25 year imprisonment.

They just don't give a fuck, because they are so high on pretending to help children.

[onenote]

113. in other words, you have nothing to back up your claim about the Wilson case

That's what I thought.

[OzarkDem]

117. It was entered into evidence

in the trial, per legal docs at the link. Why don't you give the judge a call and ask him if he'll send you a copy.

[onenote]

120. You are the one who has been making arguments based on it

I would think you would actually have read it. Apparently not.

I merely said that I wanted to see it before making a judgment about it. You obviously don't feel the need to actually read it before you draw conclusions.

(I'm assuming that you weren't responding to my post about the Wilson case, but rather to my request for a link to the Duke email).

[ComerPerro]

127. I don't need to cite evidence that could be gathered in hundreds of "sex offender" threads here

there is a rather large population here that will flame and attack and even make accusations of pedophilia to anyone who doesn't believe that sex offenders should be put to death. Compound that with all the prison rape jokes and "anyone who hurts a child should have their balls cut off" and I think you have your evidence.

[LisaL]

130. No, you specifically said that posters wanted Wilson

beaten and tortured, which is simply not true.
I don't recall even one poster suggesting that.

[ComerPerro]

132. actually, I didn't say that.

however, many sex offender laws with strict enforcement and mandotory jail terms that so many here support wouldn't make exceptions for cases like this. And its pretty established that many here do not want to make exceptions, and think that no law is too cruel for sex offenders.

[mondo joe]

142. "according to a very large group here, he should be beaten and tortured"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1132999&mesg_id=1134607

[ComerPerro]

144. That's not out of context at all. Nice job

[mondo joe]

146. That's the context and the link.

Did you say it or not>?

[onenote]

148. actually, its the context that proves you wrong

The context was that you were responding to a specific post about the Wilson case and, thus, read in context, the "he" that you claimed people "actually" had suggested should be beaten and tortured was Wilson.

Now, you've clarified that you were extrapolating from posts NOT about Wilson but rather about sex offenders in general or, in many cases, about completely unrelated sex offender cases. Quite a leap.

[onenote]

109. I'll settle for a link to a single person suggesting that.

Just one.

I searched and found none. The ball is back in your court to back up your statement.

[onenote]

93. Looking for a link

PLease show me a link to anyone who has expressed satisfaction that justice has been upheld in the Duke case who also has expressed satisfaction with the result in the case you cite.

Not saying that there isn't such a thing. Just haven't seen it.

[OzarkDem]

118. Smoking Gun

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

Contact the Durham County Court and ask to see a copy of it.

http://www.durhamcountync.gov/

[onenote]

136. so you''ve actually never read it yourself then

Since the Smoking Gun cite doesn't actually have it and you don't seem to have a cite to where it can be read online, I'm guessing you haven't actually read it. I haven't either, but at least I'm willing to admit that and to reserve making a judgment on something I haven't seen.

[Warren DeMontague]

149. No, some of us think NEITHER that guy or the Duke players should have been prosecuted.

I know that's hard to fathom.

[Iris]

155. No, what's hard to fathom is that some people only seem to notice the blame the victim mentality

exists around here until some white guys are involved.

[mondo joe]

157. And some indulge in it when white guys are involved.

Suggestion: equality without regard to race or gender or class.

[Iris]

159. Hey, I'm just saying some people need to wake up and smell the coffee. n/t

[mondo joe]

160. Hey, I'm just saying some practice a double standard. n/t

[Iris]

162. I'm not practicing a double standard. I'm just pointing one out. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

161. Actually, what's hard to fathom is what you're trying to say in that sentence.

"No, what's hard to fathom is that some people only seem to notice the blame the victim mentality
exists around here until some white guys are involved."

? :shrug: ?

I know what I think you're saying, although even translated into English it's not really relevant to the fact that lots of us- like me- found the case of the 17 year old black kid being prosecuted for consensual sex with his girlfriend just as outrageous as Nifong trying to railroad the Duke players on what was obviously a trumped-up, bogus case.

Again, :shrug:. But don't let that interfere with your righteous indignation. :patriot:

[Iris]

163. what part of "some people" do you not understand?

If you're not guilty of it, then why take offense?

[Warren DeMontague]

164. I'd be extremely curious to see an actual example of someone on DU who supported the prosecution

of the 17 year old kid for consensual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend, and is ALSO vociferously defending the Duke Players.

I'm willing to bet a dancing banana that there isn't a single one.

[mondo joe]

166. It's like the 2004 elections. "Some people" = some unidentifiable non-existent persons used to

support a baseless smear!

[NaturalHigh]

124. Do you think the black panthers were in town...

to harass Crystal Mangum or the "rich, scumbag, raping, fraternity asshole white boys"?

[Odin2005]

65. Scapegoating is wrong, period.

Just because these students are rich WASPs doesn't mean they should be fair game for people who want to use them as scapegoats for injustices committed by some other rich WASPs. We are a nation founded upon the Rule of Law, not petty, irrational expressions of tribalistic hate that blame an entire demographic for the acts of individuals.

[Catherine Vincent]

72. Get over it, people!

There was a settlement. Move the f*** on!

[BornagainDUer]

173. Yea, it doesn't matter.

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

82. Why don't you do some god damned research before calling people Freepers?

Try doing a search of their website. I think you'll find most of the comments before, during, and after the whole incident mirror opinions like yours.

[JVS]

86. Well, some people are fucked in the head and it's better that they sit at a computer and let the...

shit flow out than that they keep it bottled up and start bringing "justice" to the streets, so take it all with a grain of salt.

[BornagainDUer]

171. Well all white people are racists

according to some at DU. So yea, they are guilty. :eyes: