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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 10:58 AM
Original message
The Pentagon Memo - "normal strictures on torture might not apply"
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 11:05 AM by Solly Mack
"Pentagon Memo Comics"


Cartoon by Mikhaela B.Reid - The Boiling Point




Pentagon Memo


Working Group Report on Detainee Interrogations in the Global War on Terrorism:
Assessment of Legal, Historical, Policy and Operational Considerations.
March 6, 2003




Pentagon Report Set Framework For Use of Torture

"Bush administration lawyers contended last year that the president wasn't bound by laws prohibiting torture and that government agents who might torture prisoners at his direction couldn't be prosecuted by the Justice Department.

The advice was part of a classified report on interrogation methods prepared for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld after commanders at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, complained in late 2002 that with conventional methods they weren't getting enough information from prisoners.


The report outlined U.S. laws and international treaties forbidding torture, and why those restrictions might be overcome by national-security considerations or legal technicalities. In a March 6, 2003, draft of the report reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, passages were deleted as was an attachment listing specific interrogation techniques and whether Mr. Rumsfeld himself or other officials must grant permission before they could be used. The complete draft document was classified "secret" by Mr. Rumsfeld and scheduled for declassification in 2013.

The draft report, which exceeds 100 pages, deals with a range of legal issues related to interrogations, offering definitions of the degree of pain or psychological manipulation that could be considered lawful. But at its core is an exceptional argument that because nothing is more important than "obtaining intelligence vital to the protection of untold thousands of American citizens," normal strictures on torture might not apply.



In 2002, commanders at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, complained about the conventional (legal) methods of interrogations not being good enough.

On March 6, 2003 - 13 days before Bush addressed the nation regarding the invasion of Iraq on March 19, 2003 - the Pentagon Memo came into existence. A memo that was classified by Donald Rumsfeld.


On January 13, 2004, soldier Joseph Darby, a military policeman at Abu Ghraib, gave a CD containing the abuse photos to a military investigator.


In late April of 2004, photos of the abuse at Abu Ghraib were made available to the public.

60 Minutes II - a very mainstream news show - aired a report, complete with photos.


May 10, 2004 report from Seymour Hersh regarding torture at Abu Ghraib.


On May 7, 2004 Donald Rumsfeld, appearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee said:

"RUMSFELD: Certainly anyone who recommended the kind of behavior that I have seen depicted in those photos needs to be brought to justice."

-snip-

"Now, with respect to when were we knowledgeable of this, the situation was this: Specialist Darby told the CID that he had information about abuses in the prison. I believe it was on the 13th or 14th of January."

"Again, by mid-March(2004), when some criminal -- I don't know the legal term but -- some criminal actions were initiated, the Central Command's public affairs people went out again and announced that not only were there allegations of abuses but they listed the types of abuses. And then this is to the world. Everyone knew it. CNN was there asking questions.

And that is the time frame when General Myers and I were meeting with the president and discussed the reports that we had obviously heard because they weren't hiding anything. They disclosed it to the world."

And this beauty:

ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I mean in no way to diminish the seriousness of what has occurred here, but it seems very clear to me that the task before Congress is to determine whether or not these abuses are a result of flaws in the system or if this was a matter, as has been indicated, of individuals that simply broke the rules.

With that in mind, I'd like to know, Mr. Secretary, were any of the abuses that occurred in Iraq encouraged, condoned or committed by Department of Defense regulations or policy? Were any local or unit level policies in effect that would have encouraged or condoned or permitted these abuses?

RUMSFELD: Certainly not to my knowledge. And when one looks at the abuses and the cruelty, the idea that you would have regulations that would permit or condone or encourage that type of thing is just not comprehensible.

However...

What Rumsfeld knew

"Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was personally involved in the late 2002 interrogation of a high-value al-Qaida detainee known in intelligence circles as "the 20th hijacker." He also communicated weekly with the man in charge of the interrogation, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the controversial commander of the Guantánamo Bay detention center.

During the same period, detainee Mohammed al-Kahtani suffered from what Army investigators have called "degrading and abusive" treatment by soldiers who were following the interrogation plan Rumsfeld had approved."


On May 5, 2004, Bush gave 2 interviews to Arab-speaking TV.


"Though Mr Bush stopped short of a direct apology for the abuse at Abu Ghraib jail, where prisoners were stripped naked and sexually humiliated, he continued: "In a democracy everything is not perfect _ mistakes are made."

The perpetrators would be investigated and brought to justice, he said. "We will do to ourselves what we expect of others." He contrasted this approach with the attitude of the ousted Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein. "His trained torturers were never brought to justice _ there were never investigations about mistreatment," Mr Bush said."


A June 17, 2007 article by Seymour Hersh, The Generals' Report was published.

"In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib"


"These (military police) troops were not that creative," he said. "Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority."


Army General Advised Using Dogs at Abu Ghraib, Officer Testifies

"Army Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller told top officers during an advisory visit to Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison that they needed to get military working dogs for use in interrogations, and he advocated procedures then in use at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to court testimony yesterday.

Maj. David DiNenna, the top military police operations officer at Abu Ghraib in 2003, said that when Miller and a team of Guantanamo Bay officials visited in early September 2003, Miller advocated mirroring the Cuba operation.

The use of military dogs to exploit fear in detainees was approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for use on a specific important detainee in Cuba in late 2002 and early 2003."




On June 18, 2007, White House denies prior knowledge of Abu Ghraib abuse


"The White House has insisted that President George W Bush first learned about abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison from media reports, contrary to assertions by a former top general that Bush likely knew about the scandal before it broke."

The August 1, 2002 "Torture Memo" by (Yoo/Bybee) sent to Alberto Gonzales, then White House counsel to the President.



Dear Judge Gonzales:

You have requested the views of our Office concerning the legality, under international law, of interrogation methods to be used in the current war on terrorism












They knew. They lied.
They continue to lie.
















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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. thanks for gathering this all together, Solly
sad

:kick:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks, librechik
I couldn't let their continued denial go unchallenged.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great post
Bookmarked.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Thank you, malaise!!
They may not ever be held accountable but I'll be good and damned before I stop pushing for it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Heads up! Sy Hersh on Amy's show today!
:hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thanks, sfexpat2000!!
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. the fact that the United States government can even discuss "normal strictures . . .
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 11:34 AM by OneBlueSky
on torture" possibly not applying is so-o-o-o-o far removed from what we all believed this country was all about . . . never would I have imagined this kind of statement emanating from MY government, ever . . .

don't these people understand that if we don't take a firm and absolute position against torture, then when OUR troops are captured they will be in unconscionable jeopardy? . . . what is wrong with these peoples' minds? . . .
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Yes - the fact they we are even having this "debate"
criminal
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. They are treasosnous bastards... How dare they do this to OUR Country?
The graves of the Founding Fathers must be drenched in tears....
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I'm all for them dying of old age in prison
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. . . . dying in agonies of remorse and regret.
(if those emotions are physically possible for people like that)
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm doubting they can feel regret or remorse for their actions
but I'm OK with them rotting away with a poor put upon "why me?" attitude...because they would blame others if they were ever held accountable
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. The whole crew, from those who ordered it, to those that carried out should be on trial.
Not to mention all the ones who kept their hands clean and their mouths shut.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yep..silence is complicity
I agree with you fully.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Rumsfeld lied to Congress. Bush and Cheney and Rice lied
to us on national television.

And the torturing hasn't stopped. It's ongoing.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Exactly. The torture hasn't stopped
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. I really hate these people
n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I know how you feel
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I do, too. There's no other word for it. n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. ...
...

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. Hello? See this?
CIA's Rizzo: Our Interrogations Were Humane, Except When They Weren't


http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003477.php

Understand why this will ALWAYS be important?

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