Are college students over age 18 adults or not?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

The reason I'm asking is twofold: I'm watching the Today show right now (I know, it's corporate dreck but my cable's out so throw me a bone here). A woman who I am assuming is their resident health expert was talking about when you should switch from a pediatrician to a regular doctor for your kid and also about patient privacy issues with minors. Meredith Viera was shocked to learn that doctors don't necessarily have to tell parents what teenagers confide to them. Then she made a comment about how sometimes it's "sticky when it comes to college students getting healthcare too". Now, aren't most college students over 18 so why is their privacy even an issue?

Then there was a thread last night about the Duke case (this post is NOT about that so no comments on it, okay?) and a DUer was incensed that the defendants were talking to the police and attorneys and no one from the college had told their parents. Which I don't get. Why is it the college's responsibility to inform the parents of adult students about pending criminal charges? My understanding is that you get to make one call to your attorney when you are arrested. Do college students get a special exception to call Mommy and Daddy, or have someone call on their behalf?


By the time I was 20, I was fully supporting myself and it never occured to me to run to my parents for anything and I sure as shit would have been furious if someone told them something I didn't want them to know. I'm just amazed at the way young people in college are coddled, protected, and infantilized. Is it because a lot of parents are paying for their school? And you do realize that a big part of the reason we have a stupid, unconstitutional-as-all-hell drinking age of 21 in this country is because the parents of - you guessed it - college students agitated for it way back when. So if you are a 19 year old who happens to be working full time, married, and a parent you can't enjoy a beer after work because so many of your "future leaders" on the campuses can't handle it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Welcome to the new infantilized America

It's disgusting.

My niece just graduated college last year, and I was constantly appalled at how the school treated the ADULTS attending school there, and coddled the parents who refuse to let their children grow up - sending report cards to the parents, excessive amounts of "parents days" so the parents could come check the place out a couple times a year, reports to the parents about what the ADULT STUDENTS are up to (not individual ones, thankfully, but still...), parents calling professors to complain about grades or ague over shit, professors calling parents, parents giving their ADULT STUDENT offspring cell phones and requiring them to check in every day, and so on...

When I was in college, I called the parents about every two weeks and chatted a bit, and that was pretty much all they ever saw or heard about what was happening at school, except the couple times that they came to my fraternity's parents day (the college didn't have them at all).

The whole situation pisses me off, so I'm gonna stop thinking about it.

[uppityperson]

13. I can't check Jr's grades or health stuff, even paying college bills

College Jr is at has total privacy for students 18. I can't check grades, classes, anything, without permission. And healthcare is privatized for over 16 for many things now. They have "parents days" so parents can stay involved, I have visited as Jr has asked. I pay the bills but can't see the grades or classes.

As of now, I don't know if I'll have to pay for college next yr, not sure if Jr passed enough classes. Is this fair? Outcome being if Jr wants us to pay, will have to keep us more in the loop. That is fair.


There are all sorts of ways of being and casting asparagus on others gets sticky since we all have our own backgrounds and reasons.

[LiberalFighter]

23. Do they still use your income to determine student loan?

Do they still expect the parent to provide a set amount towards the tuition?

If there considered adults then they should not consider the income of their parents.

Laws are all screwed up. If parents deduct their children on their federal return then they should be considered minors.

[triguy46]

42. So economic status will define one's privacy rights?

In order to have privacy your premise is that you must be financially independent. Interesting.

[qdemn7]

64. The converse of rights

Are responsibilities. You want to be 100% freedom to do whatever you wish, you should be 100% financially self-sufficient.

[triguy46]

69. So voting, lets say, should just be for the self sufficient.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. White male landowners, just like our Founding Fathers envisioned. nt

[triguy46]

112. As a white male landowner, of course!

[Katrinepa2]

140. Voting! A DUTY!!!

Responsibility for voting should be honored by all Americans, as so many men and women died for the right to vote. SO MANY COUNTRIES have NO RIGHT TO VOTE AT ALL!! In America, we have a DUTY to vote!! Even if we vote for those who can not! There is NO EXCUSE NOT TO VOTE!! All Employers give time to leave and Vote. ALL!!

[fishwax]

101. wow

our freedoms depend on our finances? :wtf:

[LiberalFighter]

87. So it's okay to require the parents personal financial information

which isn't any business of school but they don't have to reveal the classes and/or grades the student is receiving.

[uppityperson]

79. It depends. A student can declare themselves independent or dependent.

We do dependent so we get more tax breaks, but a student can declare themselves independent and not take parent's income into consideration. Being a dependent helps with health insurance rates also.

[Xithras]

94. That's a college decision, not a legal one.

FERPA actually does permit parents to check the grades of their college aged kids, for the very reasons you outlined. Many colleges have prohibited the practice, however, because of privacy concerns.

I already know what my rule will be with my kids. If I'm paying, I get access to your grades. I'm not going to mortgage my house do my kids can wing it with a C or D average.

[Radical Activist]

120. So you want to use money to control your adult child?

I think that's what most of it comes down to. Parents trying to hold onto control of their child and using money as a justification to do so.

[uppityperson]

133. Partially, yes.

If I pay the college bills, I want passing grades. If Jr decides to not pass (and in this case yes, it is a decision), then I won't pay anymore. As far as control, Jr has the option of taking care of self entirely. As long as I am paying, must live up to my minimal standards. My boundaries, Jr's choice. T

There are all sorts of life lessons to be learned in college and not all of them are about what grade you get. Things like how to balance giving the one in control what they want with getting what you want out of the situation (learning for yourself yet getting passing grade). These things carry over into the larger working world (give your boss or clients what they want while balancing out personal ethics and satisfaction). If you don't do your job to the satisfaction of your boss or clients, you won't be working for them long or again. If you don't pass classes, you don't get school paid for.

I do believe that parents play a role in their offspring's lives forever, being good role models, encouraging proper behavior, helping as is appropriate, backing off and letting them make mistakes and being willing to help but not to take total control. Being a parent involves giving so much of yourself, accepting the breaking away while still offering what you can and making/holding new boundaries.

[mondo joe]

136. I expect to do the same. My kids don't have to do what I want them to do - but if they

want me to spend my money I will need to know I'm making a reasonable investment.

After quite a few years writing grants, I can't help but think of any request for money in those terms - what is the need, what will be done with the funds, how will we know the investment is yielding the agreed upon outcome.

[Katrinepa2]

141. no way!

All parents can get their kid's grades! My Dad always asked for my grades,and I gave them to him when they arrived, as HE PAID MY TUITION! No grades, no tuition paymnt! Plain and simple. My daughter has always shown us her grades, and no argument a all. None to be had, as WE paid the tuition and book bills!
You pay, they owe you whatever you want. Grades,Class lists, extra curriculars, etc.
I was soo gratefu; that my parents would pay my tuition (I lived at home and commuted to Rutgers), I gave them all info about all college events, even those I volunteered for, and worked part time at as well. I owed them Big Time!

[tblue37]

147. I teach college. The Buckley Amendment protects student privacy.

We can't tell parents anything about their kids without written permission from the student.

[WinkyDink]

107. "Infantilized America" for SURE. I love it when, just because they pay the bills, parents think

their 20-year-olds are minor children in a college's eyes!

Meanwhile, 18-year-old Jenny McJobafterhighschool and Mikey Marine are totally responsible for their own behaviors and have privacy rights.

[BuelahWitch]

144. I get calls from Mommy and Daddy over Jr's cable bill all the time

It makes you want to say, "When are you going to cut the apron strings, eh?" Then there are those who are still indulging in "youthful indiscretions" at the age of 40...

[BlooInBloo]

2. Depends on whether DUers think they're being treated unfairly or not.

EDIT: Typos.

[Karmageddon]

3. 18 is adult enough to vote and get shot at in a foreign land. But not adult enough to drink a beer.

Tell me how that's fair.

[noamnety]

12. It's not fair, but

the government recognizes that the ability to make sound judgments isn't fully formed at 18. (Medical thing, brain development, yada yada).

So, to protect them from bad judgments, they aren't allowed access to alcohol.

But to adequately brainwash recruits into military culture, to train them to go into stupid and dangerous situations that no adult sane person would walk into, we need to grab them before their ability to make sound judgments based on long term consequences is fully formed.

It's a whole lot easier to train an 18 year old to want to kill a random person they have no personal grief with than it is to train a 30 year old to do that, you know?

[Breeze54]

18. The lowered drinking age was all about $ & it is still legal to drink at 18!

Not because the GOV. wanted to 'protect' them. It's about $$ !


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act

The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 (Title 23 U.S.C. §158) was passed on July 17, 1984
by the United States Congress as a mechanism whereby all states would become thereafter required
to legislate and enforce the age of 21 years as a minimum age for purchasing or public possession
of alcoholic beverages. Under the Federal Aid Highway Act, a state not enforcing the minimum age
would be subjected to a ten percent decrease in its annual federal highway apportionment. <1>

While this act did not outlaw the consumption of alcoholic beverages by those under 21 years
of age, some states extended its provisions into an outright ban. However, most states still
permit "underage" consumption of alcohol in some circumstances. In some states, no restriction
on private consumption is made, while in others, consumption is only allowed in specific locations,
in the presence of consenting and supervising family members, and/or during religious occasions.<2><3>


Pressure from Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) was attributed with passage of the bill.

----------------------------------------------------------

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/youthissues/1092767630.html

The national law specifically prohibits purchase and public possession of alcoholic beverages.

It does not prohibit persons under 21 (also called youth or minors) from drinking.

The term "public possession" is strictly defined and does not apply to possession for the following:


* An established religious purpose, when accompanied by a parent, spouse or legal guardian age 21 or older

* Medical purposes when prescribed or administered by a licensed physician, pharmacist,
dentist, nurse, hospital or medical institution

* In private clubs or establishments

* In the course of lawful employment by a duly licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or retailer.” 1
(Emphasis in original. Conspicuously not emphasized is the significant fact that
“the law does not prohibit persons under 21 (also called youth or minors) from drinking.”)

[IntravenousDemilo]

29. Wouldn't repeal of this Act be something a Democratic presidential candidate could get behind?

Even if the law doesn't prohibit under-21s from drinking, just buying alcohol and consuming it in public, it's nevertheless discriminatory.

Would there be possible ill effects for a candidate who campaigned on this issue?

[Breeze54]

32. What? And lose Fed. dollars??

"Under the Federal Aid Highway Act, a state not enforcing the minimum age would
be subjected to a ten percent decrease in its annual federal highway apportionment"


I voted to lower the drinking age, from 21 to 18, in 1972, I think that was the year.
But I seriously doubt anybody or state wants to lose that highway money, ya know?

[IntravenousDemilo]

34. Well, then, the Federal Aid Highway Act just has to be fixed as well.

Surely there are more important things than money... no?

[Breeze54]

37. I think it should be amended at least for soldiers !

It's ludicrous that they can die in war but can't have a beer before they do!
That's why I voted to lower the age to 18, when I was 18, during the Vietnam War.
It was crazy then and imho, it's crazy and unreasonable now.
The US has the highest drinking age of all countries, from what I read.

[IntravenousDemilo]

49. No, that would also be discriminatory.

Up here we used to have capital punishment for people who killed police officers and prison guards, but not anyone else. Why, I wondered, were cops and guards considered so much more special than the rest of the population? Luckily, we solved this discrimination by getting rid of capital punishment altogether.

BTW, drinking age in Canada is a provincial rather than federal responsibility, so it's 18 in Alberta, Manitoba, and Québec, but 19 everywhere else.

[Breeze54]

52. I agree, to a point, but

don't soldiers get any 'extra privileges' just because they're
soldiers, that a regular 18 yr. old wouldn't necessarily get?

Wait a minute.....

What the hell am I thinking?? :crazy:

I must be really overheated! .. :P

They're lucky they have body armor!! :grr:

[BlooInBloo]

102. Yah - if there's one thing that would make our military better, it's more liquor!

[Breeze54]

105. The soldiers don't drink in the ME. It's outlawed!

[BlooInBloo]

31. If that's someone's biggest problem, then they're not doing too badly. Wah.

[TahitiNut]

39. 18 is adult enough to vote and get shot at in a foreign land. But not adult enough to be President

Tell me how that's fair?

18 is adult enough to vote and get shot at in a foreign land. But not adult enough to collect Social Security.

Tell me how that's fair?

18 is adult enough to vote and get shot at in a foreign land. But not adult enough to get a senior's discount.

Tell me how that's fair?



The FACT of the matter is that there are quite a few age-limited entitlements in the law and even in the Constitution.

[IntravenousDemilo]

50. Apparently an IQ score of 18 is enough to be president, though. n/m

[TransitJohn]

51. I'm with you

There should be one age, 18, for everything.....voting, alcohol, financial contracts, credit cards, loans, taxes, and yes, even driving. Make it the real deal.

[TahitiNut]

53. Should that also be the age of consent?

Is it rape otherwise? :shrug:

After all, if a person can't be trusted to drink how can they be trusted to become a parent?

:evilgrin:

[TransitJohn]

54. oh yes absolutely

if that's majority, that's majority. Statutory rape, I think should only be applied to someone of majority having sex with a minor. Make it the age for marriage too (financial contracts). It'd be so much easier.

[Katrinepa2]

143. LOL!

When I was 18, living in NJ, the Legal Drinking age was 18. If you can be drafted, then yo can certainly drink!
As I see it, those who might obey the law may not drink before 21, but most will drink anyway, no matter what age they are. Kids in HS steal it from parents, or get an older sibling to buy it for them and their friends. IMHO, it was better in the late 1970's and early '80s, where we had Pubs at the college, and walked home. No driving. Much safer! I was shocked and saddened when the laws changed. I let my daughter drink a glass of wine in HS at home, and she is 22 and is very careful now. Adults need to TEACH KIDS HOW TO DRINK!! At Home!
A parents' responsibility!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Excellent point

In my experience, college serves two purposes: 1) get you a diploma which you can trade for future income, and 2) temporarily delay the icky parts of adulthood.

How many independent 19 year olds go to Daytona Beach for spring break? Not many, because they're grown ups.

I was living on my own when I was 18, married by 21 and owned my own house by 23. When I was 18 I knew what I was going to be when I grew up because I was already grownup.

[Bill McBlueState]

57. to be fair...

A lot fewer college students go to the beach for spring break than pop culture would have us believe. Many undergrads are working a job or two to get through, and certainly, jobs don't come with a spring break.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

127. You are absolutely right

It is pop culture that promotes the idea that the college experience of the minority of lucky students in the norm. However, it is the parents of those young people who wield a disproportionate share of very real political power.

[noamnety]

5. Speaking as someone with a daughter in college

I think I can explain the problem.

She's on my health insurance policy. So their privacy (which I fully support) is a sticky issue for doctors who want to bill the parents' policy but not let the parents have access to what the insurance company is being billed for. If something isn't covered by insurance, or is in the deductible portion of what's not covered, who gets the bill?

Many kids are covered on their parents insurance policy up until they graduate from college, even though they are adults by then.

For those who aren't on their parents' insurance, this obviously isn't an issue at all.

[KurtNYC]

7. my thoughts were along those lines -- "Adult" = paying the bill

How can a doctor send a bill to your insurance company and you (for co=pay) without saying what the bill is for?

[BlooInBloo]

27. There are unexpected consequences to that equating.

[triguy46]

71. Two different issues

First, if your 18 year old goes to a clinic and signs an authorization to bill medical insurance provided by a parent, the insurance company will send an explanation of benefits to the policy holder. They are in fact consenting to this release of information as part of the relationship with the insurer.

This is not the same as a parent calling the physician and asking for protected health information of their adult child. That would require a release of information signed by the adult child.

If the adult child does not want you to know what is going on, the loophole to close is to not bill insurance, but pay cash.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. Ah, I can see that

The Today Show segment was interesting on the doctor/patient confidentiality thing. Like I said, Meridith was flabbergasted that her kid's doctor didn't have to tell her if he confided that he was drinking or using drugs. But the expert pointed out that the doc's first responsibility is to the patient, and that sometimes a kid would be endangered by the parent knowing certain things.

[triguy46]

43. This is at best a loophole.

A student, 19 years old, goes to a physician, who then bills an insurance company. The insurance company pays and send the policy holder an EOB, (explanation of benefits). These will give some basic information about date of service, general description of what was done, what was paid. This is because the student chose to use the insurance provided, and the insurer reports to the covered individual. This is different than the parent calling a clinic and asking for access to the medical record. The student will have signed a release that the medical information can be released for billing purposes, some of which will be reporrted to the insurer.

We have many student who choose to pay cash so their parents will not see the EOB and question why they were in the clinic.

[Horse with no Name]

129. I have a healthcare spending account

and my kids since they are students are both on it.
However, when my insurance company questions something and I have to send documentation to support the expense, I cannot have access to that--whether it is a pharmacy record or a Dr. office expense.
It makes it really difficult at times.
However, I understand and I don't have a problem with it.

[seaglass]

6. Age 18 is an adult as far as I'm concerned. The moment I stopped

going into the doctor's office when my kids had check-ups was the moment I felt they had the right to privacy about medical issues. I know the doctor would have told me if there was something of concern.

My kids' pediatrician said they do not transfer out of pediatrics until they are 18. My daughter, age 17 had her college physical a couple weeks ago and I gave her permission to get a prescription for the pill. The doctor made me sign permission for both the HPV and the gyno appointment because she was under 18.

I hate this half adult/half child thing - being legally responsible, being able to go to war, not being able to drink alcohol legally - I think it's arbitrary and ridiculous.

[nosillies]

8. I think it's about a bigger issue than just parents/kids.

I think it's the fear that any of us have of something terrible happening to anyone we care about because of something we didn't know about and could have assisted with. While I believe it went unmentioned in that report, I'm sure the Va. Tech shooting was on their minds.

Yes, college students are adults, and their health care issues are private. (And yes, some students are still being supported by their parents at age 21, and that does not make them or their parents bad people, btw. It makes them different from you.)

However, it is frustrating for anyone to think that their child or parent or best friend may be suffering in some terrible way and may need lots of extra support, encouragement, whatever, and that they might not know what their loved one is going through.

I'm in my thirties and my mom still calls me when she knows that I have had a doctor's appointment. She's not controlling, she's not a freak, I'm not a baby who has to run to Mommy for everything. The simple fact of the matter is that she loves me and will always be concerned about me, and would want to help in any way if bad things were happening to me.

The same goes for adult children who are assisting with providing care for their parents. They often want to know all the details of their parent's medical issues so that they can provide the best support possible for their loved ones.

Let's face it -- age has nothing to do with whether someone is mature and rational enough to make the best decisions for themselves at all times. Thank goodness there are people out there who care enough to want to provide assistance to others in their times of need.

[treestar]

65. I think that's a good way to look at it

Though the parents probably need to have their relationship with the kid cultivated a bit more. Make it so your kid tells you and you don't have to be dependent on third parties to do it, and you've got it as good as you can get it.

[nosillies]

77. You've got it -- in fact the doctor on this report stressed your point

She said that if your relationship with your child is strong, then you don't need to worry about what's going on behind your back, because they'll involve you when necessary, and make good decisions on their own when necessary.

She said -- SHOCK HORROR -- that the parents have to be responsible and DO THEIR JOB as parents!

[triguy46]

73. We encourage our student patients to involve family

when dealing with crises. But ultimately, (with exceptions), it is their choice.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

90. I think you make some great points

Especially about maturity being highly individual. What chafes me is that college students, as opposed to everyone else in the 18-22 y.o. demographic, seem to be in a special protected class of extended and extralegal adolescence. And they apparently need so much extra protection, that it is sometimes necessary to pass bogus, arbitrary laws that impose upon the freedoms of every 18 year old, a la the drinking age and restrictions on gambling. An 18 year old can't even buy a damn lottery ticket in my state! Sure, many 18 to 22 year olds aren't able to handle certain things, I know I sure wasn't, bur how is it helping them in the long run to shield them from the consequences of their decisions?

And this stuff IS the result of college parents, not parents in general. Who else has the clout and social position to demand these things and get them passed? Not to mention that the vast majority of political leaders and media figures go to, and send their own kids to, colleges and universities. So I think there is a lot of classism in play here, along with an obliviousness to the existence of anyone outside of their social circles.

[nosillies]

92. A good parent/child relationship solves so many of these issues

Health care issues, "underage" drinking issues, financial issues...

Thankfully, caring parents and good children transcend all classes, can be found in all communities and all walks of life and in many different colors.

[triguy46]

From my perspective after 15 years in college health...

In general our students would be better served by acting independently and without parental involvement. But that might be a luddite view in light of the proliferation of cell phones. In higher ed, we now talk of 'helicopter parents' because of how they hover. It is not uncommon for the parent to call instructors to complain of grades; hall directors to complain about their child's roommate. These conflict issues should be handled by the student, not the parent.

By the same token, the student should be encouraged to make health and medical decisions without the risk of exposure of sensitive information to a parent, if they so choose.

[Breeze54]

9. Age of Majority vs Age of Consent varies state to state....

You make a lot of valid points! I think the colleges notify the parents
because the parents are probably paying the bills. Possibly the colleges
have an agreement with the parents and the students that covers this issue?

-------------------------------------------------------

Age of Majority

http://www.answers.com/topic/age-of-majority?cat=biz-fin

The age at which a person, formerly a minor or an infant, is recognized by law to be an adult,
capable of managing his or her own affairs and responsible for any legal obligations created
by his or her actions.

A person who has reached the age of majority is bound by any contracts, deeds, or legal relationships,
such as marriage, which he or she undertakes. In most states the age of majority is eighteen, but it
may vary depending upon the nature of the activity in which the person is engaged. In the same state
the age of majority for driving may be sixteen while that for drinking alcoholic beverages is twenty-one.

Another name for the age of majority is legal age.


http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/majority.htm">Age of Majority Chart


http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/g/consent.htm">"Age of Consent"

Definition:
The age of consent is the age at which an individual can legally say yes to having sexual activity.

The age of consent varies from state to state in the United States, and in other countries.
Also Known As: AOC


http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/g/threeyear.htm">"Three Year Rule"
New one on me!!

---------------------------------


People under 21 can't drink or gamble but they can take a bullet and die in Iraq or Afghanistan!
Ludicrous!!!

[happyslug]

25. I question this cite

For example. Pennsylvania age of Majority is still 21 (Unlike the age 18 given in the cite). Now Pennsylvania has
passed a law that people age 18-21 are to be treated for contracts purposes as if over 21, but that is NOT the same as if age if 18 was "age of consent". Thus the law in Pennsylvania right now is age of Majority is still 21, but 18-21 year olds are treated for purposes of contract law and to be sued and sue as being over age 21 (For criminal sex laws, age of the "Protected age group" is 18, again not the same as age of Consent"..).

Thus it is more complicated then just changing the age of Majority to age 18.

[Breeze54]

35. Good catch!

http://www.defense.gov/comptroller/fmr/07b/07b_appendix_h.pdf">AGE OF MAJORITY BY STATE & UNITED STATES POSSESSIONS

Alabama
19
Ohio
18
Alaska
19
Oklahoma
18
Arizona
18
Oregon
18
Arkansas
18

Pennsylvania
21

California
18
Puerto Rico
21
Colorado
18
Rhode Island
18
(For Contracts)
South Carolina
18
Connecticut
18
South Dakota
18
Delaware
18
Tennessee
18
District of Columbia
18
Texas
18
Florida
18
Utah
18
Georgia
18
Vermont
18
Hawaii
18
Virginia
18
Idaho
18
Virgin Islands
18
Illinois
18
Washington
18
Indiana
18
West Virginia
18
Iowa
18
Wisconsin
18
Kansas
18
Wyoming
19
Kentucky
18
Louisiana
18
Maine
18
Maryland
18
Massachusetts
18
Michigan
18
Minnesota
18
Mississippi
21
Missouri
18
Montana
18
Nebraska
19
Nevada
18
New Hampshire
18
New Jersey
18
New Mexico
18
New York
18
North Carolina
18
North Dakota
18

[Progressive_In_NC]

10. As a parent, I find this to be fuzzy area

My kids are young so I looking way forward on this (and back on my childhood as well). I don't know that a 14 year old is an adult. But an 18 year old is about as close as one could get without being one.

I got my first job at 15. I worked til I was 18. I went to college on my own money and worked 3 jobs to get there. My parents never EVER saw my grades (even though I got a 3.4). It was my business, I paid my own rent after my freshman year (I was 17 when I went to college so signing contracts waso ut of the question that first year).

Kids in college are coddled. My friends all partied because they didn't have to have jobs to get through. I had to be at a Great Harvest Bread Company at 5 am to start the bake five days a week, so I didn't party all that much. Plus I had two other PT jobs just to play for books, meal plan and gas.

[happyslug]

33. Sound like you were an "Emancipated" Minor

Emancipation of minors occurs when such minors are on their own and are treated by the law as if an adult Technically no minimum age to be an emancipate minor, my father was one at age 12, his family dissolved during the Great Depression and his mother's insanity). Minors can exit the emancipated status (Come under the rule of an adult, or even another emancipate minor) at any time, but only by clear events (i.e you moved back in with your parents). If a Minor is NOT under the control of someone else, that minor is an emancipated minor and treated as if an adult if mature enough to do so. No minimum age to be an emancipated minor, but rare for anyone under age 12. The big issue over the last 100-150 years has been "is the child going ot school"? IF below the state mandatory school age, rare to be an emancipated minor, but if above that age, widespread in the days before WWII (My Own Father was an emancipated minor when he was 14 during the great Depression). 14 was the minimum age to attend school in his home state during that time period (The Great Depression).

The issue were you under the control of someone else? (Do to the FAILURE of your parents to exercise control) If not an Emancipated minor unless of the age that YOU MUST ATTEND SCHOOL (Generally age 17 today).

[triguy46]

45. Except at 18 you are not a minor.

[happyslug]

172. Depends om The state.

My home State of Pennsylvania, still say you are a Minor till you turn 21. Now Pennsylvania has a law that 18-21 year olds are treated the same as if over 21 for any purposes (mostly Contracts) not otherwise set by stature (This was to permit continued restrictions on people below 21 from drinking, Pennsylvania being one of a few states NEVER to have dropped drinking down to age 18).

[Progressive_In_NC]

60. I think I was, but it actually wasn't intentional

My parents were GREAT. They raised me to value hard work and to never quit. But they didn't make a lot of money, and my dad became disabled when I was in the 10th grade and had to fight for four years to get disability.

I still went home a lot and they visited on the weekends, but I was responsible financially for myself. And I think it made me a better person today.

[happyslug]

173. Almost never is, most cases involve some act that shows a lack of Supervision.

Being set off to Collage was NOT enough (Being drafted into the Army was worse, and states REFUSED to say merely being drafted was enough to make you an emancipated Minors). The act of Emancipated had to be some act of the PARENT that they were no longer doing "Care. control or supervision" over the minor (This is the rule as to ALL minors to this day, even minors below 18 years of age). Some act that showed a lack of supervision would suffice. Today when minors want into Public Housing (independent of their parents) I do affidavits of the minors and their parents about the lack of "Care, control and Supervision" and my local Public Housing Authority accepts those statements. Just because you are NO longer under your Parent's control does not mean you can not get support from them (For example your parents babysitting your child}, but the key is how much control and who is responsible for the rent? If you are an emancipate minor, you parents are NO longer responsible for debts you incur (Housing, medical, etc). For example my Father was an emancipated minor at age 14 when his mother went insane and his father was working out of state (He had to find his own place to stay, which he did with the farmers of his area who took him in as a worker whose worked paid for his housing and food, very common in rural america at that time, the 1930s). Rarer today, given modern conditions, but no unheard of and remains the law for those people below age 18 who are no longer under the "care, control or supervision" of their parents do to some act of the parent.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

11. I wasn't

I started college about a month after I turned 17. (Skipped a grade when I was younger.)

I actually got busted for curfew in my hometown when I was home over Christmas break (forgot that I couldn't just stay out all night like I could at school) during my freshman year.

[Warpy]

14. I think there's still a certain amount of

"if I pay for it, I control it" whose kids are teenagers and going to pediatricians.

It's really too bad because kids won't talk to a snitch, and if they don't talk, a doctor won't be able to help them. Some parents don't seem to realize it's an ongoing process, and if a doctor blabs just once, the line of communication is shut down forever.

[mondo joe]

15. The answer is not as clear-cut as yiou might like it to be.

The answer is: Sort of.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. I wasn't 'sort of' an adult when I was 18

Why is it different with college students? What is so special about them that they must be shielded and cosseted?

[mondo joe]

28. Well, for one thing, few college students even qualify as financially

independent. In terms of financial aid apps, parental income is a factor. If the college thinks a student is not sufficuently an adult that their parental income is a factor, then they have already blurred the line between independence and dependence, adult and child.

Legally, most college students can vote and can be drafted, but can't buy a beer. Another blurring of the line.

In your last post here you asked why college students "NEED" to be "shielded and cosseted".

I'm not addressing NEED.

[Breeze54]

58. I'd bet there are a lot of kids that do qualify as independent!

6. Are my parents responsible for my educational loans?

http://www.finaid.org/questions/faq.phtml

No. Parents are, however, responsible for the Federal PLUS loans. Parents will only be responsible
for your educational loans if they co-sign your loan. In general you and you alone are responsible
for repaying your educational loans.

You do not need to get your parents to cosign your federal student loans, even if you are under age 18,
as the 'defense of infancy' does not apply to federal student loans. (The defense of infancy presumes
that a minor is not able to enter into contracts, and considers any such contract to be void. There is
an explicit exemption to this principle in the Higher Education Act with regard to federal student
loans.) However, lenders may require a cosigner on private student loans if your credit history is
insufficient or if you are underage. In fact, many private student loan programs are not available to
students under age 18 because of the defense of infancy.

[mondo joe]

There are a variety of plans. At least when

I was a student, you had to be off your parents' taxes for at least a year nefore you qualified as independent for purposes of financial aid.

But my point was not that this is a hard and fast rule that means 18 year olds aren't adults - my point was that the line is sometimes more blurry.

[Breeze54]

67. I understood! But I was thinking of poor kids

that do qualify and get Fin. Aid. I think they may get more help,
if they don't include their parents on the application.

[triguy46]

117. Why is there this synthetic linkage

being constructed that requires financial independence as a prerequisite for medical privacy?

[mondo joe]

131. I don't know - I don't believe in such a link myself. I believe in medical privacy.

[triguy46]

46. Right on target.

parent student relationships are very different. REgardless of how much hovering parents do, how many bills they pay, the student is able to give consent at 18 whether or not they are prepared for that. Parents no longer have a say in those issues. We have parents coming with their 19 year olds to our clinic and want to sign the authorization for treatment and we have to explain that their signature doesn't work.

[nonconformist]

16. There is a new phenomenon called delayed adulthood

Time Magazine, I think, did a huge report on it a year or so ago. I remember it because I made sure my mother saw it. I'm 34, but my brother is 19 and my sister is 21. Both still live at home and basically still consider themselves children... especially my sister. It's funny too - listening to her is like listening to a rebelling 14 year old... "I'm a grown up!" - yet, everything she does is childish. I could rant about this for days.

I was on my own supporting myself at 18 with a shitty job in a cramped studio apartment with a roommate at 18. Married at 21, a parent at 22. Now, I'm not saying that everyone should marry and start a family that early, but cripes. What kills me is that working a shitty job or three to afford some shitty studio apartment isn't "good enough" for many of today's young adults. They want to wait until they're pulling in mega bucks and able to afford to buy their own house or a really nice apartment sans roommates. Does the word "independent" mean nothing to them?? They'd rather live at home than struggle in the least?? That's how you grow UP. Every ADULT has gone through the hard knocks of life. "Protecting" these young adults from that is NOT doing them any favors.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

24. I remember that article

What irritated me about it was the easy assumption by the writers that affluent college kids represent their entire age group. There's a ginormous difference between the lives of Johnnie Frat and Susie Sorority and their non-college attending contemporaries.

I can relate to what you're talking about with your sibs. My b/f's daughter is 20 and in college. She has an apartment, paid for by her dad, along with her tuition and living expenses. She sorta kinda looking for a job this summer but there's no pressure coming from him because he wants to make sure his widdle pookums isn't doing menial work. Gawd forbid. :eyes:

Drives me nuts, especially when I think back to what my life was like at her age. Then again, I'm glad that I learned to be independent quickly.

[DarkTirade]

153. My parents were big on that whole 'sink or swim' thing

which was fine with me because I was going off to college anyway. :) But they didn't pay my way through college, I did that myself with the help of some student loans.
When I was 19, I met a girl at work and started dating her. She was only 16, but her parents would leave her alone for weekends at a time and let her watch over their numerous pets. (They used to run a greyhound shelter, and still had several left from that. And they loved dachshunds so they had a few of them too.) She was mature enough for me at the time. When I broke up with her, I started dating a 20 year old who was still living with mommy and daddy, they were paying her way through college, the works. She hadn't done anything on her own in her entire life. She'd never held down a job. Her parents provided everything for her. And that relationship only lasted a couple of weeks, because she was basically a child and I just couldn't date her. She wasn't mature enough for me. She hadn't grown up yet, and I was well on my way even though she was older than me. And yet a 16 year old who had taken responsibility in her life was mature enough for me.
Just an interesting anectode that I think fits here. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Of course they are

Although many like to believe that they're not.

[happyslug]

21. The general rule of law is that you are a minor till your turn 21.

Now prior to the 1970s, 18-21 year olds, would claim they were "Emancipated minors", and as such they were treated as NO LONGER BEING A MINOR. 18 year olds males were subject to the draft. Women would be viewed as no longer being a minor when they married (But Marriage at 18 tended to end when the males were drafted at 18).

Thus by the 1970s 18-21 year olds were no longer considered Children, but adults given that the boys were drafted and the women waited for the drafted males to serve they time in the Army. By the early 1970s most states had passed laws treating 18-21 year olds like they were over 21, This was the result of both the draft (mostly males), and the history of women marrying 2-3 year older males. Given that most males were drafted at age 18, forced most females to wait to marry till after the males served their military times. Thus the draft lead to people marrying later in life. The end of the Draft caused men to be treated like their 18 year old sisters (i.e. no yet on his own). Remember when a man was drafted, his life was "Fixed" for the next three years of his life. By the 1970s Women between the age of 18-21 no longer could marry slightly older men (They were in the Army) but wanted to go to collage. At that point Collages insistent on a change of the law in the 1970s so that people who were below 21 upon reaching 21 could no longer said the contracts entered into before they turn 21 were invalid for the 18-21 year old contractor were to being to young to entered into valid enforceable contracts. People on turning 21 could state that the contracts entered into before they turn 21 were invalid for they were "UN-Emancipated minors" and as such the Contract were NOT valid against them.

The solution to the above problem was for each state to change they law to state minority stooped at age 18 (or in the case of Pennsylvania state that 18-21 year olds are treated as if over 21). Thus collages could get students age 18-21 to sign valid contracts, that they could sue the student for the terms of the Contracts. That is the law today, 18-21 year old are treated as if over age 21 for purposes of contracts, but for things like drinking alcohol, it is still age 21.

[triguy46]

47. Can't speak for all 50 states...

But in the states that the Big XII conference is located, 18 year olds are adults as regards access to health care and privacy protections of such information. There is no emancipation issue involved.

[happyslug]

174. Even when age of Majority was 21, teens could seek medical treatment.

When it came to health care, most states adopted very broad definitions, including NOT having a minimal age to request medical treatment. Under the common law a Doctor was viewed as having the obligations to treat anyone who requested his services, no matter the age. During the Great Depression (if not before) most states passed very strict privacy laws EVEN FOR UN-EMANCIPATED MINORS, to encourage people to look for health treatment. Regarding law income areas, this privacy expanded beyond whether a minor was emancipated or NOT (In fact came out of various VD control efforts where victims were often below the "age of Consent"). My father often told the story of his days on Maneuvers for the US Army in Georgia before WWII. In one maneuver he was approached by a Woman who offered her body to him for pay, he refused he could see the signs of VD on her (Through his two buddies with him wanted to borrow his $5 to pay for her "services"). The whole fifth Army (I might be wrong as to which US Army) was looking for her for spreading VD among the troops. All involved were below age 21 (and age of "consent" in 1941 America). My father KNEW the army was looking for her from statements read to the troops about who was spreading VD among the troops (And trying to get the troops NOT to have sex with her). VD was widespread in the South Prior to WWII, and an effort was made to reduce VD as part of the War Effort. As part of that effort the states had to make access to heath care "private" to encourage people to have themselves tested and treated for VD. These laws did NOT affect the general rule as to 21 being the age of Majority, but made a narrow exception for sexual diseases (and by doing so, other medical problems). Congress then expanded the exception to include all medical records when it was found out that was the best cover for people looking for a cure for their VD. This started in the 1930s when the Federal Government forced the states to expand their Medical Assistance to ALL Americas, but it took WWII for most states to pass the needed laws.

My point here is that the attempt to reduce VD in the military Servicemen is that really forced the Changing the law. No emancipation as needed as to medical treatment do to the perceived greater need to treat early cases of VD. At the same time, this narrow exception to emancipation was NOT viewed as Emancipation itself. This was a narrow exception that ended up being taught in the Local High Schools and Collages (Do to the high rate of VD in the South at that time). For any other right, to rent a house or room, to join a club a person below age 21 had to show they were an emancipated minor till the law was changed in the early 1970s to age 18. Even today, this two track system survives in almost every states, one saying for medical Treatment all you have to go is the local clinic no matter your age, while for other purposes you must show you are over 18 (Since the early 1970s) or an emancipated minor.

[qdemn7]

66. Very good post

One other thing. Federally, you can purchase a long gun (rifle or shotgun) when you turn 18, but you cannot purchase a handgun until you turn 21.

[sandnsea]

22. If your child shows up missing

and the college didn't inform you because the kids an adult, then you'll understand why privacy is a sticky issue. When my kids were away at school, yes I expected the school to at least send a letter regarding school issues. The majority of 19 year olds aren't responsible, and the ones who decide to have babies at 19 would be in that list too. I was 18 and it was the dumbest thing I ever did, and I chose to do it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. Then raise the age of majority back to 21

And no one enlists in the military prior to that. But this bullshit of saying "you're an adult now" while for all intents and purposes treating you like a kid does nothing but give a lot of young people enough rope to hang themselves.

And certainly, if someone goes missing it should be reported to family members. At any age.

[sandnsea]

30. I would totally support that

I don't approve of trying teens as adults either. There is something different about a teen brain, lots of studies that show its not fully developed, hormones aren't settled, etc. I don't think it's fair to stick adult consequences on people under 20.

[triguy46]

48. Do we really want to be that controlling of our children...

forget the military and our current non-draft. Do we really want to have to parent our 19 year olds in the same manner as a 14 year old?

Maybe I'm jaded after working in higher ed for 16 years but I would suggest that at best it would complicate things, at worst be a burden that exceeds the benefits.

[qdemn7]

76. I would say yes, as a society.....

We obviously do want to be that controlling. If you can die for your country, get married, sign a contract, be incarcerated for life or sentenced to death.... all at age 18. But you can't drink alcohol, or as I previously mentioned, buy a handgun, then obviously you aren't an adult until you turn 21.

[triguy46]

80. So the real point here is drinking age?

You list all kinds of reasons why an 18 year old should be an adult, and as such afforded the privacy of their medical records, which I believe was the original point. I'm not sure which side is being supported here, other than it seems that most want drinking ages lowered.

for that matter, you don't have to be 18 to be sentenced to death.

[qdemn7]

81. I'm 50 yrs old

I was able to drink at 18. I see raising the drinking age to 21 as the fault of MADD whom I consider just another cult of (religious so-to-speak) zealots. Read the PDF here if you have the time. http://www.ridl.us/articles/BackDoortoProhibition.pdf

[triguy46]

85. I don't think I have a dog in this fight...

except as it regards an 18 year old's privacy rights. Why should an 18 year old not have privacy just because of drinking age? Plus I trump you, age wise, I'm 55!

[MiniMe]

36. Things are so different now than when I was a kid

Of course, I did manage to be 18 just after the drinking age changed to 18, so that was never an issue for me. However, I was pretty stupid about drinking and driving. And I think that was part of the problem, teen deaths from drunk driving crashes went way up. I also remember when speed limits were up to the states. I think it was Jimmy Carter that changed it to 55 as the max, for gas conservation.

When I was a little kid, my friends and I would go all over on our bikes, and our parents never knew exactly where we were, and they weren't worried about it. We had our curfews when we had to be back, but we were on our own. It seems like every moment of kids days are planned now. This time for soccor, this time for dance lessons (or whatever), this time for homework, etc. I can't imagine growing up without the freedom that I had, and I didn't abuse it. OK, I'm starting to ramble now.

[Breeze54]

38. Nixon signed the 55 MPH bill into law;

Although he supported it, it was Jimmy Carter that most people "blamed" for the law.

It was President Clinton who reversed this law.

From a report at PBS:

"The national speed limit was originally intended to save fuel, not lives.
In the early 70's, an Arab oil embargo created a serious gasoline shortage in the United States.
In 1973, the 55 mile an hour speed limit was signed into law by President Richard Nixon, and later
endorsed by President Carter, who touted improved safety, as well as fuel economy."

[MiniMe]

83. Interesting. Thanks Breeze. I guess I don't equate republicans

with fuel economy, don't understand why. :rolleyes: I do know that once it was in place, they realized how many accidents it prevented, because accident rates went down. Hey, I got one part right.:hi:

[Reverend_Smitty]

40. 18 is an adult IMHO...

as a recent college graduate, I would be appalled if my doctor discussed my medical records with my parents without my permission or if my college called home about my grades. Speaking as someone who has access to some medical records of college students, I know that they have to sign all sorts of wavers before I can access them or forward them to a third party. I wouldn't dare discuss their medical problems (usually benign orthopedic injuries) with their parents without permission first.

With that said, I would hope a college student would be able to talk to his or her parents about his or her problems but a third party should NOT make that decision for them

[triguy46]

41. I work in college health. Simple answer: age is the determinant, not student status.

We deal with this all the time: "I'm paying the bills, let me see my 20 year old's medical record." We say,"No, sorry." States will vary slightly on minor issues, but simply put, at 18 you are an adult as regards your medical care and records. Information will only be released by specific authorization, (I know, I know, there are tons of special cases, but for this discussion, lets keep it simple). A parent does not have the right to an 18 year olds medical information regardless of the fact that they are a student, living at home, daddy paying the bills etc. One's economic dependence or independence is not relevant. Only age.

Meridith Viera's reaction simply reinforces that being on TV is not related to knowledge.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. and this is exactly how it should be

We can't expect a campus health clinic to apply two sets of rules depending on how much a patient's parents contribute to the cost of education. It would be a logistical mess.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

99. I wonder if the people on this thread who think students should have no medical privacy

Since their parents are footing the bills, would also agree that a woman should have no medical privacy from her husband if she's a homemaker? I mean, he's paying the bills, right?

[triguy46]

115. It does seem a little controlling and out of character for DU n/t

[TrogL]

44. A single good reason for 21 drinking age

Addictions research has shown that use of an addictive substance (eg. alcohol) during teenage years greatly increases the chance of addiction vs. drinking taken up later in life eg. 21.

Yes, I'm well aware a piddly little thing like a law isn't going to stop most people but every little bit helps.

[depakid]

75. Yet in practice, binge drinking is less of a problem abroad

where underage drinking is tolerated, taught more responsibly and the drinking age is 18.

Basically, this was a Reagan era "just say no" zero tolerance type thing- it had little to do with science or reason.

[mondo joe]

78. In addition, rights are not generally recognized first as ways to reduce addiction.

If they were, shouldn't people with family history of addiction be denied the right to drink?

Your constitutionl rights are yours - they are not for the government to use to babysit you.

[slackmaster]

55. Legally, in most respects they are

They can't drink alcohol, buy handguns, or run for Congress; but they can vote, enter into contracts, and potentially be drafted into the military.

Emotionally, generally not IMO. But that too is a matter of perspective. To a nine-year-old someone who is 18 seems almost unfathomably old and wise.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. As a Mom of a 20 year old and 16 year old..........

Although my oldest has been considered an "adult" for the last 2 years, there is no way that I can objectively consider him an adult. He is a brilliant young man but his maturity level is far less than what mine was when I was the same age, and even far less than my parents when they married at 21 and 19.

As to my youngest, I am almost on the floor laughing when I think that in 2 years he'll be considered an "adult"!

On edit..regarding my 20 year old. Recently he mentioned how he and his girlfriend were going to get their own apartment. Please note that we live in one of the most expensive counties in the country. I asked how he was going to pay for it. He said his girlfriend would be making blank dollars per month, which was the average rent for an apartment. Meanwhile, my son is a student who makes all kinds of excuses not to work. He said he would get a job waiting tables. I explained that he has to take into account not only rent, but utilities (heat, electric, gas, phone, Internet), car expenses, food.

Two weeks later he asks if we can get another dog or cat. I asked him what happened to the apartment idea. He said he listened to me and realized it wasn't possible right now.

[Breeze54]

59. I hear that but

boys mature slower than girls. I have three, so I know! ;)

http://www.supportingoursons.org/misc/moreinfo.cfm

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

63. lol! Not much lately. I was talking to a friend of mine who is 29 and she's become

friends recently with 21 year old girls. She said they were like babies! Meanwhile, check out the post you replied to. I just edited it!

[Breeze54]

72. LMAO!!!

My 18 yr. old just did almost the exact same thing to me!!! :rofl: He graduated HS last week
and then told me, he and his friend were going to get an apt! So, I asked how he'd pay the rent
with a part-time job. He has been offered full-time. He gave me the run down but forgot to
add in 'little' things like: food, electricity, gas, car insurance, furniture, cable, game rentals etc!
I asked him how much he thought rent was and then asked what his take home was usually.
He sort of smirked and was quiet about it. I also reminded him that his friend was going away
to college in Sept. About a week later, he says; "Well, ok. Maybe I'll live with you for the
next two yrs and then we'll get a place!" :P

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

84. lol! I knew there was a reason why I asked you to read my edit!!!

Just way too funny!!!

:rofl:

Seriously though. It is so much harder now for young people to go out on their own than when I was in my early 20's. At 22 I had my own 1 bedroom apartment in Queens, NY (a borough of NYC_ that cost $115.00 a month. That was exactly what I was earning a week as a receptionist in a law firm in Manhattan. I lived very comfortably. The same apartment now would run about $1500 a month.. and do you think receptionists make $1500???? I think not.

[Breeze54]

88. It is way more expensive now, for kids starting out!

I moved out of my parents' house at age 18 but I was also working full-time
and my rent was $25.00 a WEEK for a 1 bdrm!! That included ALL my utilities!!
There's no way that would happen today. No way!

[mondo joe]

96. Not to mention the credit checks, the first last and security deposit.

It used to be a lot easier to just live in most cities.

[Breeze54]

97. Exactly! I mentioned that too!

But he just didn't realize all that!
He's still a 'kid', in my book.
A very young 18 going on 16. :P

[mondo joe]

100. A few years ago there was an essay in the NYT from on old hippie mom,

describing her conversation with her teenage daughter. She talked about how she and a bunch of friends moved out as soon as they could, and a bunch of them got an apartment. As they talked she realized how impossible it would be for her daughter to do the same, because there are now so many barriers to what was once an ordinary event.

[Breeze54]

103. Wasn't the change due to the passing of Prop. 13?

I know that changed things and rents etc. here in MA. It was a long time ago
and I vaguely remember a lot of people against it. And rent control was thrown
out in a lot of cities too! Made things really hard for a lot of people. Poor people!

[Radical Activist]

121. I wonder if your parents thought the same thing.

Your attitude is pretty common among parents, most of whom have a hard time seeing their children as anything but children. I don't know how much it has to do with how immature the adult in question really is.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

145. As I said, I am being objective with him. As to my parents and how they viewed me?

I had worked part-time starting at 15 and never asked my parents for Anything. I had my own phone, bought my own tv, stereo and purchased my own clothing. On top of that, I gave my parents $20 a week for room and board. At 18 I was working full time in NYC and saved until I was 22 and moved out on my own. Yes, they thought me to be very mature.

[ComerPerro]

62. Our society is very unclear on who is a child and who is not, its very strange

There's times when a 19 year old is called a "child", and there are times when the same people would describe a 13 year old as an adult...

[gravity]

68. They are

They have the right to privacy to withhold medical information to their parents or anyone else for the matter. Not everyone wants their parents to know every detail of their medical history, like getting an abortion or having alcohol poisoning.

And about todays 18 year olds are not responsible, you can't teach responsibility unless you allow them to take responsibility. They aren't going to learn to take care of themselves if you keep bailing them out all the time.

[rinsd]

70. Iwas 17 when I entered college, turning 18 during my fall semester (nt)

[triguy46]

104. In our university clinic...

we would have needed your parents permission to provide medical care to you and they would have had full access to your medical records. On your birthday, the switch would have been thrown, you would have to have provided your own consent for treatment and your parents would not have had access to your records. I know that it sounds silly, that one days makes such a difference, but its how things are done. I've yet to read a better solution on this thread.

[mondo joe]

74. Parts of this thread make e wonder if I'm on the right board.

"When I was 18, yadda yadda yadda..."

Haven't older people been saying this forever? And putting down the next generation as being somehow irresponsible and immature, and their parents as ruining them?

It's a different world than the one you grew up in. There are ways in which young people today seem less mature than they did when I was that age, and some ways in which they seem more mature.

I sometimes feel sorry for my kids because of some of the things they need to contend with that I didn't face until I was much older. And other times I almost envy them for opportunities they'll have that I didn't.

Every generation is different - every family is different - every relationship is different.

It seems a shame to me that instead of embracing difference, there are so many chips on so many shoulders.

[Breeze54]

82. I didn't see any put downs... maybe one or two.

Perhaps these are parents of 18 year old that are replying? :rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. I disagree. Independence is the same for every generation.

I see few of the people of my kids generation who are inclined toward independence.

When I was 18-1/2, I told my folks I was moving out. Dad asked if I could manage on my $4.00/hour pay. I said "there's only one way to find out".

He nodded and said "I guess you're right. Good luck."

This didn't seem unusual at all to him, because he left home when he was 11.

My 17 year old is more inclined toward independence than his peers, but they are dramatically different from the attitudes of the people I grew up with. Prolonged adolescence becomes worse with each generation.

[mondo joe]

93. I don't know why prolonged adolescence is necessarily a negative.

People live longer, generally, and birth control allows people to spend many more year unencumbered by children of their own than in any previous time.

It seems quite natural to me that adolescence would be somewhat prolonged, and I don't place a particular value judgment on it.

[triguy46]

109. This is at odds with what is happening both physiologically

but also culturally. Onset of menses is coming at younger and younger ages. Culturally adolescents are exposed to images, language, freedoms that were not the norm 20 or 30 years ago. So it seems that we are not encouraging adolescence rather the converse, pushing adulthood. I don't think that treating 20 year olds in a protective shell of prolonged adolescence does anything to promote responsibility or maturity.

[mondo joe]

114. Actually, a few posts up I said pretty much the same thing -

that in some ways kids today are MORE mature.

But I don't have a fixed notion of what adolescence is SUPPOSED to be. It is what it is, and cultures and families treat it differently.

I also don't think I support a "protective shell".

[triguy46]

118. oops.

been in on this thread most of the pm, can't tell who is who without a program.

[nosillies]

91. well said

:applause:

Thanks for noticing the elephant in the room.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

95. Knock the chip off your own shoulder

Maybe some of the responses here are things you need to hear. My point with the OP was not to make it a generational "In MY day we did it this way!" thing, or to proclaim my moral superiority. I fully agree that we should embrace difference. To that end, I'd like it if the media and power structure would realize that the majority of young people do not go to college right after high school. Last I read, about 70% don't. They get full time jobs or they go to vocational school or they join the military. Yet the ubiquitous Face of Young America is what? A teenaged college student.

And the wry irony is that all those other young people are paying taxes to help subsidize 4 years of glorified babysitting for their luckier contemporaries. Some of whom repay them by behaving irresponsibly and causing intrusive, infantalizing laws to be passed. For their "protection".

[mondo joe]

98. You sound resentful.

I don't consider college "4 years of glorified babysitting".

I further don't begrudge anyone getting a college education, even with taxpayer funding. It's an important part of our infrastructure, and a good use of taxpayer funds.

In fact I'd like rather a lot more money go into supporting higher education, particularly for those whohave the greatest economic barriers.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

106. Spare me your 2 dollar psychoanalysis

I don't begrudge anyone going to college, I went myself and finished my degree at the age of 35. My experience is actually closer to the norm, as most people who attend college do so later in life. It wasn't football games and frat parties for me. I was there to learn, as are the (silent) majority of students. I don't have a problem paying taxes for higher ed and I'd gladly pay more, particularly if it would enable economically challenged people to go. But the way things are going with college loans and the economy in general, pretty soon only the affluent (as in: the frat party set) are going to be able to afford a degree, while we still get to subsidize them.

What you consider to be unfounded resentment is simply my observation of the unconscious classism, elitism, and paternalism that defines thinking and policies where young, LEGAL adults are concerned.

[mondo joe]

110. Please identify the policies you speak of, and explain how they are defined

by "unconscious classism, elitism, and paternalism".

[nosillies]

122. Ahhh, don't stress yourself...

I'm sure you've realized over the past few days, as I have, that anyone who:

Went to college (especially straight out of high school) OR
Played a sport OR
Had supportive parents OR
Has any level of financial comfort OR
Was in a fraternity or sorority OR
Owns a house OR
Has investments OR
Was never abused physically or mentally or sexually
(I could go on, but God help you if more than one applies to you)

is a low-life piece of shit who surely does not deserve anything good that might come their way, can in no way call themselves progressive, and should pretty much just fuck off and die.

So I'm off to walk both ways to work uphill in the snow barefoot in a sackcloth carrying a crack dealer on my back while my teeth rot out of my head. And if I have time, I'm going to see if my parents will come over and treat me real nasty since they were so good to me all these years. Then, when someone throws me a party to celebrate my martyrdom, I'll invite you so you can wallow in my misery with me.

Shame on you for being both rational AND happy.

/sarcasm

[mrreowwr_kittty]

126. What is that about?

What, pray tell, did I do to you to earn such a venomous post?

[Rabrrrrrr]

157. I hear ya on that one. You also suck if you have high IQ.

It's funny how often I am forced to face my own shititude for having the gall - the un-liberal, poor-hating, non-progressive GALL - to go to college straight from high school AND to be in a fraternity AND to work for a couple Fortune 500 companies AND have a pretty good retirement set aside, all because I had the audacity - THE UNMITIGATED FUCKING AUDACITY I TELLS YA - to, gasp and sputter, work for it and earn it.

:eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

123. Drinking age and gambling laws

The ages to drink and gamble were raised to 21, under pressure from parents who were concerned about their college age children. Contrary to popular belief it wasn't MADD who spearheaded the drinking age effort, though they got on board early on and became strong backers of it. With gambling, it wasn't community organizations who were worried about the effects of gambling in poor communities. Again, it was overprotective parents of college kids. Now a 20 year old who works full time, who may be serving in the military or on the police force, can't buy a 6 pack of beer and a lottery ticket. Meanwhile, underage drinking continues to be a problem on campuses and the most frequent underage gambling addicts are college students. Good thing they took that stuff away from everyone under 21, huh?

John McCardell, the former President of Middlebury College, wrote a scathing article about the drinking age in the New York Times in 2004. He said the drinking age is "bad social policy and a terrible law, turning many campuses into either arms of the law or havens from the law".

[mondo joe]

130. So parents of kids in college passed laws against drinking and gambling,

but parents of kids not in college don't care if their 20 year olds drink or gamble?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

155. I am suggesting no such thing

I'm saying that parents with kids in college wield a lot more political clout than parents whose kids don't go to college, generally speaking. And the former group chooses to focus its energies toward public policies that infantilize their own adult children while taking no account of the effects that those policies have on other young adults.

In my city there are several hundred arrests for underage drinking every year, of persons who are over 18 but under 21 (the reason I know that is from research for a project). Scarce few of them are college students, despite there being a large state university in the area. This isn't because the 18-21 year olds at the college are teetotalers by any stretch of the imagination. The school regularly ranks among the top 10 'party schools' in the nation. The people getting arrested and having to go through fines and probation are mostly working class. They can also have their driver's licenses suspended as well, even if they were not driving when arrested. Most of them have full time jobs and probably many of them have families to support. Meanwhile, their college counterparts do their drinking in a protected environment and as long as they don't drive they have little to no fear of consequences. Well, except that deaths from alcohol poisoning are a fairly regular occurrence. Again, good thing we're keeping that stuff away from them, huh?

Don't even get me started on our stupid-ass drug laws....

[triguy46]

86. For those who support abortion rights...

A major point of contention is the effort by the other side to require parental consent. If it is argued that an 18 year old does not have privacy rights, that parents who pay bills should have full access to their records of all kinds, then in fact would that position not be a de facto support of parental approval for abortion?

I think we are being a little inconsistent by proposing fewer rights for 18 year olds, but demanding unrestricted access to abortion. I support the latter, and cannot see how we can have it if we limit the privacy rights of 18 year olds.

[BlueStater]

111. When I was 18 I pretty much considered myself an adult

Being able to vote for the first time obviously had a big impact on me.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

113. I was pretty much on my own by age 16, without much adult guidance - not a good thing

I wish the heck that I had the support of adults when I began wheeling and dealing in the real world (college, buying a car). A teenager/young adult is much more likely to taken advantage of than an older adult, & believe me I was.

My friend's son joined the military on his own, & talk about lies and false promises. My friend (a former recruiter) marched his son back to the recruiter's office. The father/son left the office with a upfront recruitment package. This could have been a fatal error.

There's always room in everyone's life for the wisdom of elders, for good role modeling, for a good swift kick in the butt.

[BoneDaddy]

116. We have reduced adults to children

and we do it more everyday. Adolescence has gone from a period of bio/psycho/emotional changes over a relative short period of time to an "infantalized" period of no accountability or proper education on what it means to be an autonomous, independent adult.

For 99% of our human existence cultures across the planet have provided rites of passage for children to become powerful meaningful adults in their societies. We provide none of that. In fact, we do the opposite.

[Kerrytravelers]

119. I'd hope most parents would use college as the opportunity to make their little ones grow up.

I know mine did.

What just floors me is the stories that our college professor friends tell us about mommy and daddy calling or showing up at their offices, crying over their precious little baby's grades, or how hard the assignment was. Seriously. We are coddling to such a degree that these children never grow up and make it in the real world. They just whine and fuss until you give them their way because you just don't want to listen to it anymore.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

125. I'm sure this happens, but I also know of at least 2 instances of injustices

done to college students which would have not been corrected had they not had the support of older adult family members. There are just too many "professionals" who, for what ever reason (work load, ambition, laziness), put forth greater effort if they know there is parental scrutiny. There's nothing wrong with older adults helping/teaching/modeling how to be assertive.

[Kerrytravelers]

135. There is nothing wrong with older adults counseling someone how to be assertive.

However, by the time one goes to college, they should be responsible enough to sit down with their professor, bring their work and ask for justification of their grade. There are steps one can take if there is not a satisfactory meeting with the professor.

And sometimes, life isn't fair. Just like in the workplace. If there is a problem, I don't expect my mom to call my boss. I have ways of taking care of the problem. There are also procedure in place to deal with the situation.

College is preparing people for jobs in the real world. I can't imagine getting a call from a parent because a student in my college-level class didn't think I was being fair. I'm not sure how I personally would handle that call. Some of our friends who have been in this situation have told the parents to put their complaint in writing. When they receive the letter, they call the student in and turn it into a lesson about how to deal with situations in the real world. Others tell the parents to lodge their complaints with the deans and/or department chair. Others say that they won't accept the call. I can't imagine a professor, lecturer or dean/department chair taking a call from a parent seriously, unless there was some serious issue, such as a death in the family and the professor refused to take a late assignment. But calling because a grade isn't fair without some extreme circumstances? I worked in a public school classroom for years and I had principals who would limit the amount a parent could complain due in part that some parents would simple argue over everything in an effort to wear everyone down to get their way, even if their child had not earned the "A" they were irrate to get.

Off on a tangent, but not too far off the subject, Mr. kt and I often discuss how it seems that no one is ever wrong anymore. Even when someone is wrong, just yell loud enough and long enough until finally the other side gives in just to stop the screaming. It is considered a sign of weakness to be wrong or to not be #1. While there is something to be said for healthy competition, our society is all about yelling and screaming and aggression. I see this as an extension of that.

I'm glad that my parents made me take responsibility for myself with teachers in high school. If I had a gripe, they would talk with me about the best way to approach the teacher, but I was on my own. And it sure made a difference for me when I was in college and though my first job out of school. I felt far more empowered and in control of my own life because I was able to be correctly assertive and able to be independent.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

149. Thanks for your reply. I think we agree on this issue. I would not condone or support

a parent's intervention for frivolous reasons. That is the student's responsibility. The parent should be there to offer advice, suggestions, and direction, or just be there as a sounding board.

And it's difficult to understand (I know it happens) a parent's irrational need to influence a child's grade.

But I believe there are circumstances that require the experience and maturity of an older adult. The incidence in "A Scent of a Woman" and the suspension of the Duke lacrosse players come to mind. These young men would be in difficult positions without the support of their families. These are extreme incidents. But there are serious circumstances that do present themselves, and when they do, the student should not feel a need to go it alone because "they are an adult now" and a parent should not hesitate to intervene because their child "is an adult now".

[Kerrytravelers]

152. Oh, no. I completely agree. There are times when we all need family support.

Family support has nothing to do with being an adult. There have been plenty of times in my lift when I needed my parents support. And even now that I'm married, there have been times that Mr. kt and I definitely needed my parents support and advice. Support and encouragement is part of being family. And there are times that someone else needs to intervene and assist someone, child or adult. I totally agree with that.


I totally got what you meant in your previous post! :hi:

[Nikki Stone1]

124. In terms of healthcare, the college student 18 or over IS considered an adult

Campuses and hospitals will NOT report anything to the parents. That is why Virginia Tech's shooter Cho was able to get as bad as he got: had he been a high school student, the school could have called his parents about his very odd, antisocial and criminal behavior. Because he was a college students, they could do nothing.

[Horse with no Name]

128. My 19-year old still goes to her Pediatrician

Basically because she isn't sick that often and he will ONLY continue to see them past the age of 18 if they are unmarried, without children and in College.
As far as confidentiality goes--everyone over 18 has a right to privacy just like any other adult. This includes medical care.
As adults, College is their responsibility. Both of my kids are in College and I don't see their grades unless they show them to me.
I assume they are passing because they both graduated from Community College in May.
I'll help everywhere I can--but whether I am ready or not, they are both adults.

[Breeze54]

132. I understand that! -- My son still goes to his ...

pediatrician also but that's because his Ped. is also an ADD/ADHD Specialist (up to 21 yrs. old)
and he always asks my son permission to also talk with me. The HS required that my son sign a
waiver, so that they could discuss his progress with me as soon as he turned 18. He wanted me to
be at the meetings, so; he signed but it was his decision, not mine. I do foster his independence
and I have been doing that since he entered his junior year! ;) How else was he going learn to
make his own decisions? My goal has been his independence, since he was a baby! I'm no fool! :P

[AnotherMother4Peace]

134. Good for you. You're son will probably be a caring, nurturing father one day.

When my young adult son was scheduled for surgery, the doctor sat down with the whole family for discussion and questions. My son was very grateful for this support. The surgery went very well.

[Breeze54]

138. I'd want family with me regarding surgery and I'm

all grown up! ;) I didn't interfer with my son's teachers decisions and I made my son talk
to them, by himself, when he didn't agree with their decisions but if he was having surgery?
You bet I'd be there! Thanks for the compliment! I think your son will be the same! ;)

Good job, Mom!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Katrinepa2]

137. Duke

I have a daughter who graduated this year from Bryn Mawr College in PA, at the age of 22. As far as I was concerned, she was an adult at 18, just as I was back when. Her father still provides her Medical Insurance thru his work plan, and I offer her what I can, when I can. She is an adult, and can choose her own path in many ways, and has done since High School. If she needs help, she calls us, and otherwise she deals with her own issues. Mom and Dad are grateful, as she is now a grown adult.
With these young MEN at Duke U., the school had NO RESPONSIBILITY to contact Mommy and Daddy!! These young men were old enough to have sex, or whatever, and also old enough to handle their own problems-which they helped cause.
I hope they learned something from their experience!! As in, "Keep it in their Pants!!". If you do nothing, then nothing can be done to you.
Being RICH should have NOTHING to do with what happens in any criminal case!!

[mondo joe]

139. Since the Duke students didn't do ANYTHING illegal, how can they

be said to have caused the problem?

They were VICTIMS of prosecutorial misconduct.

What are you gonna' say next - women cause sexual harassment by dressing provocatively?

[ikojo]

142. I don't consider anyone an adult until they are paying

their own bills. If mommy and daddy are paying your bills, you are not an adult, regardless of age. That being said, I think the current crop of 18 year olds are rather child like. For the most part, if they are upper middle class, they have had almost every aspect of their lives scheduled for them by their parents. They don't know much about spontaneous play with kids who are not part of a group approved by their parents (I'm talking about "play dates").

I know it's a generalization and there are always those who fall outside, but we are talking about college students and as many on DU know, college is increasingly becoming the purvue of the well off.

http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2007/hc/200704/20070410study.html

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

College study finds wealth of difference
Income levels for the families of freshmen are at their highest point in 35 years

By James M. O'Neill

U.S. college freshmen are wealthier than at any point in the past 35 years, and the income gap is widening between their families and the rest of the nation, a study indicates.

This academic year's entering class came from families with income 60 percent greater than the national median, as tuition increases shut out lower-income students, the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles, said in a report Monday. The gap was 46 percent in 1971, according to the study of more than 8 million students over 40 years.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

156. That article is disturbing, to say the least

More evidence of the chilling direction our economy is heading. Welcome to the Second Robber Baron Era. :scared:

[WinkyDink]

146. 18 is the age of maturity. Educational, work, or family status is not LEGALLY pertinent.

I found out the hard way when I got booted from my parents' golf/swim club, as I was no longer considered a dependent!

[The Backlash Cometh]

148. Let's give this perspective.

Yes, they're legally adults. However, the majority are getting their tuition paid by their parents. So, if they want the next year paid, they better tell the parents their grades.

On the other hand, only Americans tend to kick their kids out of the nest at the age of 18. Many cultures continue to give emotional, as well as financial support because the culture lends itself to having a large, extended family unit. Not too surprising, many of these cultures also get stereo-typed as being "smart" because the kids do so well in college.

By the way, even the colleges admit that family support is a help to a child's transition and success in college. So, pat yourself on the back for being so independent, but be aware that some people are happier having to share a bathroom with abuelo and kid sis come summer time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

159. Thank you for that perspective

The way you put it, I can see how a supportive family environment is a positive thing throughout life and can especially help a young person become a responsible and caring adult. I just don't agree with the way that some parents are wielding the pursestrings and influencing public policy to control their own adult children, in a way that infringes on the rights of others.

[The Backlash Cometh]

163. Of course, you're right.

Parents shouldn't have all that control, but, having experienced it, it is also wrong for colleges to give the wrong impression that kids are completely on their own at the age of 18. Realistically, a kid can come home at the end of his freshman year, struggling with "C"s because he has a tough time getting motivated due to a bad case of homesickness which he's afraid to admit to anyone, and the parents receive him and his report card with shock and disappointment. After paying $30,000, a parent may begin to wonder if it was a good idea for the school to convince them to cut the umbilical cord at orientation. So, I can see why a parent would be motivated to get involved by the second year.

There should be a balance, somewhere. My fear is that schools want to force kids to get emancipated from their parents early because they have a few public policy ideas of their own. Like getting the Army recruiter involved with their course selections.

[Kerrytravelers]

160. I completely agree that a supportive family environment is a great thing.

It's a shame that some people go too far and try to shield their children from all of life's obstacles. I feel so fortunate that I had and still have a supportive family environment that also taught me how to be independent and to be properly assertive for my own self. It was very empowering to know that I can take care of my personal business, but still had a soft place to fall when I needed them. I see a lot of people in my generation are missing that. I have grown up watching them flounder and it's sad to see that as adults, they are now passing along this same inability to cope and handle life's rough spots without falling apart.

[The Backlash Cometh]

164. Lots of factors probably enter into it.

A supportive community may play into it, for instance. My kids, for example, were raised in a very hostile, but upwardly mobile community. People yelled at them if they stepped on the common grounds, or if they even sat on the grass by the road which is public easement and which is not deeded to anyone. We have had little positive contact with the neighbors. As the city planned it, any social interaction they have had was completely controlled by carpooling them out of the community to attend boy scout meetings, baseball, soccer or any other sports practices.

Do you really think my kids will grow up trusting anybody or really wanting to get to know their neighbors or want to take risks with people? Yet these are the kinds of experiences that are left for families all across Florida because Republican controlled city boards are more intent on property rights and real estate values, than they are about building good community centers and protecting open space, where neighborhood kids can reach by foot and congregate and get to know each other, on their own terms.

Isn't it ironic, that in an upscale neighborhood, community planners in the city expected that "rich" people would supervise every minute of their children's activities? Yet, that's how the Comprehensive Plan reads. Which is probably why they looked the other way as good open space was improperly gobbled up by developers and adverse possessors. They didn't think rich people would allow their kids to play outdoors like commoners, so now, their kids are playing on narrow streets without sidewalks, or around dangerous retention ponds. Michael Moore said it best. Stupid white men.

[DarkTirade]

150. Yeah, that's something I just don't get...

Especially when I found out that my college had a policy of CALLING THE STUDENT'S PARENTS if the student was caught drinking under the age of 21 on campus.
That just blew my mind.

[Evoman]

151. The prof I work for says that this is an epidemic.

He gets a lot of parents wanting to make appointment with him or call him to talk about their ADULT offsprings' grades. They also are the one who come in to ask for permission for their ADULT offspring to take this or that classes.

He quite simply refuses to talk to them. Refuses. He will not make an appointment with parents, nor will he make an appointment with a student who brings their parents. He is adamant about this. I can't help but agree with him. College students are not children. If they are children, their parents are doing something wrong.

[Rabrrrrrr]

158. Good for your prof - I wish more professors were like him.

Parents and other family members should be told to just go fuck themselves every time they call a college about anything that doesn't involve the death, dismemberment, or near-death of a family member.

I don't know why colleges put up with the bullshit.

Colleges are filled with professional educators, people who (barring a couple of my professors) are trained educators, who know what they're doing, and are professionals.

They should put up with the whining and infringement no more than a lawyer, doctor, or plumber would.

I can't imagine any of them putting up with a client constantly second-guessing their expertise.

[Odin2005]

154. If you are 18 you are an adult, period.

You parents have no right to peek into your life without your permission once you hit 18. I swear, our parents are making my generation is the most infantilized generation in history, this "helicopter parenting" shit needs to stop.

[Jed Dilligan]

161. It would be rather disturbing to me if they weren't

seeing as I've had, um, relations with some of them since I became an adult (on my 18th birthday, when I was in college).

[Downtown Hound]

162. I take it you haven't been in college for awhile

or maybe never since you were fully self sufficient at a young age. So let me give a brief lowdown on everything I see in this highly pampered environment you are currently berating.

One of my friends at the school where I'm currently studying Information Technology goes to school from 8:00 A.M. to 2:30 p.m. Then he goes to work as a security guard in a hospital from 4:00 until midnight. On his downtime in his shifts, that's when he does his homework, but we I.T. people have a lot of homework and he often doesn't get it all done. So he has to finish it up when he comes home. He maybe gets 5 hours of sleep on a good night, and he does this day after day. Sometimes he is so tired the next day that he falls asleep in class.

Another classmate of mine injured his back on his auto mechanic job, and often has to come to school hopped up on pain pills. Yet he still works his butt off and gets straight A's, all the while working on cars in his spare time despite the fact that he has a bad back and risks injuring it further. He has no choice though, he has a wife and mortgage to pay on his house that he bought while he was making good money as a full time mechanic, which he can no longer do because of his back.

Another girl works three jobs while going to school full time. And she barely has enough money to pay her rent and her car insurance. Yet she always has a smile on her face and is the sweetest thing you could ever imagine.

And another girl gets off of school, goes home to spend two hours with her 2 year old daughter, and then goes out again to work a late shift at a grocery store.

I could go on and on, but I'm hoping you get the idea. I don't know how old you are or when you were 20, but I can tell you that rent is much higher than it used to be, especially where I live, housing is staggering, gas is super expensive, and most of the jobs young people have available to them today pay jack shit. Very few will pay enough to do all the things that are considered standard in this society; have a car, health insurance, pay your rent, buy a home, buy groceries, ect. Hell, many of the students I know would love to have a little money left over for some beer, let alone a trip to Florida for Spring Break.

Sometimes I just get really sick of all the bashing of young people and college students, not only on this board but by people in general. Lots of us fucking bust our asses.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

165. Wow, thanks for this prospective-My son's friend works a night shift & attends school during the day

He is a brilliant young man. His dedication and determination amazes me. The very best to you and your friends.

[Breeze54]

166. Hell yeah!!! Great post!!! I would Recommend, if I could!

Been there, done that!! Over and over!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Hang in there!! Graduation is SWEET!!!! ;)

:hug:

[Kerrytravelers]

167. It wasn't that long ago that I was in my BA program and my MA program.

And you're right. Tons of people are there to get an education and to bust their ass. I know that was the reason I went. And I did bust my ass. And didn't have near the hardship that many others did.

It's just a shame everyone doesn't take the same attitude toward their education and their life. Can you imagine how much stronger we'd be as a nation if education was as respected as it is for those you mentioned in your post?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

168. I did go to college and I am aware of how hard it is for most students

I also live in a college town and see the ones driving the brand new sportscars, living in nice apartments paid for by their folks. Are they in the minority? Absolutely, and I think I have made that clear in some of my posts on this thread.

The median age of undergrads is actually 25 or 26 these days, so the kid who goes to college right out of high school, courtesy of Mom and Dad is not the norm. I got my degree when I was in my 30s and working full time. You obviously realize that the portrayal of college life by the media and the impression that people have of college students and their overall competence to handle their own affairs is far out of line with reality. We are in agreement on that.

What I am chafed about is how the Meredith Vieras in our country wield their considerable political clout to shape public policy so as to coddle and infantilize their adult offspring, at the ultimate expense of everyone else in their age group. She thinks that college health centers should disclose private information about adult students to parents. Do you agree with that? Do you think any of the exemplary young people that you cited in your post should be denied a hardearned six pack if they happen to be under age 21? Do you think they shouldn't be able to buy a freakin' lottery ticket? Do you think that the colleges they attend should take it upon themselves to inform their parents if they get arrested? Have you read some of the posts in this thread from people who work in higher ed. and have to contend with hovering "helicopter parents"?

I don't get where you think I'm bashing college students. I'm not. I'm bashing a small subset of extremely annoying and inordinately powerful overprotective halfwit parents and their dumbass fuckup sprogs who ruin it for everyone. If that's not you and your friends, then it's not about you.

[Downtown Hound]

169. I can see now where you're coming from

It was your last paragraph in your OP that threw me for a loop, and I can see I'm not the only one in this thread that mistook your intentions. It was the way that you mentioned being totally self-sufficient at 20, and then went on to say how college students today were coddled and infantilized. I took it as a slam against today's students for not being more independent, but I realize now you meant nothing of the sort. The fact that a few others on this thread proceeded to jump on the student bashing bandwagon didn't help my misconception any. So I apologize for my misunderstanding.

And actually, I agree with everything you say. I believe students should have a total right to privacy in all matters; grades, medical records, arrests, you name it. And yeah, they should be able to legally have a beer or spark a joint when they want. And yeah, the helicopter parents can go to hell.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

171. Yeah, I think I expressed myself awkwardly there

I should have made it clear in my OP that I wasn't talking about all college students. I was thinking of myself as that 20 year old and saying, "Hey! Who the hell are you to tell me what I can't do in my private time? And why should my parents be informed of the events in my life, unless I choose to tell them?" I was wondering what was different about college students of the same age that they are in some special category, such that intrusive policies and laws need to be enacted in order to protect them.

[ellisonz]

170. Just don't confuse that with things like co-signing loans or limited financial support.

Perhaps you would understand the quandry this way, if my parents expect me to help support them when retirement runs out with both labor and money they damn well better give me a chance to put myself in a position where that is possible. Trust is a two way street. I do not approve of parent's being called into dispute graves, but at the same time I recognize damn well the harsh realities of American political economy. Most families do not get very far with the sink or swim attitude in the absolute. What ever happened to the concept of nurture? And yes, I support medical privacy, and frankly I think its telling that you carried on the ignorant opinion of a talking head that it is the college's responsibility to disclose drug and alcohol counseling information to the parents. A good parent knows what their kid is up to and handles it appropriately. The notion of the individual as a seperate socio-economic unit is a myth.

"Of course, the desire for the power and recognition which the mere fact of wealth brings plays its part. When the imagination of a whole people has once been turned toward purely quantitative bigness, as in the United States, this romanticism of numbers exercises an irresistible appeal to the poets among business men. Otherwise it is in general not the real leaders, and especially not the permanently successful entrepreneurs, who are taken in by it. In particular, the resort to entailed estates and the nobility, with sons whose conduct at the university and in the officers' corps tries to cover up their social origin, as has been the typical history of German capitalistic parvenu families, is a product of later decadence. The ideal type 28 of the capitalistic entrepreneur, as it has been represented even in Germany by occasional outstanding examples, has no relation to such more or less refined climbers. He avoids ostentation and unnecessary expenditure, as well as conscious enjoyment of his power, and is embarrassed by the outward signs of the social recognition which he receives. His manner of life is, in other words, often, and we shall have to investigate the historical significance of just this important fact, distinguished by a certain ascetic tendency, as appears clearly enough in the sermon of Franklin which we have quoted. It is, namely, by no means exceptional, but rather the rule, for him to have a sort of modesty which is essentially more honest than the reserve which Franklin so shrewdly recommends. He gets nothing out of his wealth for himself, except the irrational sense of having done his job well."

But it is just that which seems to the pre-capitalistic man so incomprehensible and mysterious, so unworthy and contemptible. That anyone should be able to make it the sole purpose of his life-work, to sink into the grave weighed down with a great material load of money and goods, seems to him explicable only as the product of a perverse instinct, the greed for gold.

At present under our individualistic political, legal, and economic institutions, with the forms of organization and general structure which are peculiar to our economic order, this spirit of capitalism might be understandable, as has been said, purely as a result of adaptation. The capitalistic system so needs this devotion to the calling of making money, it is an attitude toward material goods which is so well suited to that system, so intimately bound up with the conditions of survival in the economic struggle for existence, that there can to-day no longer be any question of a necessary connection of that acquisitive manner of life with any single worldview. In fact, it no longer needs the support of any religious forces, and feels the attempts of religion to influence economic life, in so far as they can still be felt at all, to be as much an unjustified interference as its regulation by the State. In such circumstances men's commercial and social interests do tend to determine their opinions and attitudes. Whoever does not adapt his manner of life to the conditions of capitalistic success must go under, or at least cannot rise. But these are phenomena of a time in which modern capitalism has become dominant and has become emancipated from its old supports. But as it could at one time destroy the old forms of medieval regulation of economic life only in alliance with the growing power of the modern State, the same, we may say provisionally, may have been the case in its relations with religious forces. Whether and in what sense that was the case, it is our task to investigate. For that the conception of money-making as an end in itself to which people were bound, as a calling, was contrary to the ethical feelings of whole epochs, it is hardly necessary to prove. The dogma "You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24) which was incorporated into the canon law and applied to the activities of the merchant, and which at that time (like the passage in the gospel about interest) 29 was considered genuine, as well as St. Thomas's characterization of the desire for gain as turpitudo (which term even included unavoidable and hence ethically justified profit-making), already contained a high degree of concession on the part of the Catholic doctrine to the financial powers with which the Church had such intimate political relations in the Italian cities, 30 as compared with the much more radically anti-chrematistic views of comparatively wide circles. But even where the doctrine was still better accommodated to the facts, as for instance with Anthony of Florence, the feeling was never quite overcome, that activity directed to acquisition for its own sake was at bottom a pudendum which was to be tolerated only because of the unalterable necessities of life in this world.

Some moralists of that time, especially of the nominalistic school, accepted developed capitalistic business forms as inevitable, and attempted to justify them, especially commerce, as necessary. The industry developed in it they were able to regard, though not without contradictions, as a legitimate source of profit, and hence ethically unobjectionable. But the dominant doctrine rejected the spirit of capitalistic acquisition as turpitudo, or at least could not give it a positive ethical sanction. An ethical attitude like that of Benjamin Franklin would have been simply unthinkable. This was, above all, the attitude of capitalistic circles themselves. Their life-work was, so long as they clung to the tradition of the Church, at best something morally indifferent. It was tolerated, but was still, even if only on account of the continual danger of collision with the Church's doctrine on usury, somewhat dangerous to salvation. Quite considerable sums, as the sources show, went at the death of rich people to religious institutions as conscience money, at times even back to former debtors as usury which had been unjustly taken from them. It was otherwise, along with heretical and other tendencies looked upon with disapproval, only in those parts of the commercial aristocracy which were already emancipated from the tradition. But even sceptics and people indifferent to the Church often reconciled themselves with it by gifts, because it was a sort of insurance against the uncertainties of what might come after death, or because (at least according to the very widely held latter view) an external obedience to the commands of the Church was sufficient to insure salvation. 31 Here the either non-moral or immoral character of their action in the opinion of the participants themselves comes clearly to light.

-Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, Ch. II, The Spirit of Capitalism, 1905, http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abukuma/weber/world/ethic/pro_eth_frame.html