I have fucking HAD IT with health insurance in this country

[magellan]

My husband and I are self-employed. Late last year we were able to afford health insurance coverage for the first time since leaving the UK (where as you know, like all other civilized countries, healthcare is nationalised). It took us a lot of shopping around to find one that wouldn't be a waste of our money.

With a $2500 deductible we can just afford our policy, which costs $1390/quarter. That is until next month, when they're jacking it up to $1740!! No reason stated except "medical costs keep rising." We haven't even USED the damn insurance yet.

The notice says we can take a $5000 deductible and reduce the payments to $1560/quarter. How nice of them. Of course if we accept that and something does happen to one of us, we can always set up a repayment schedule with the hospital for the first $5000. But then we'll be paying that PLUS the quarterly insurance payments, and voila -- having the coverage becomes virtually useless at our very modest income level.

So besides ranting, I'd like to ask what's been asked before: can anyone here who's self-employed with insurance recommend a good, cost-effective health insurance plan? Thank you. In the meantime, I'm going out to cool down.

[MNDemNY]

1. You could do what a lot of folks do...

A Wing And A Prayer Underwriters. The coverage sucks, but it's cheap.

[liberaldemocrat7]

22. Make some local phone calls today.

Force BIG PHARMA to lower their prices of patented drugs with no generic competition.

Today I announce an effort to force Pharma to lower the prices of patented drugs that have no generic competition. Call your local Eckerd, CVS, and Walgreens pharmacy and tell them that unless they lower their patented drugs to a DOLLAR a pill or capsule you will not buy any consumer products or any prescription drugs from them. Then go buy elsewhere from now on..

For those who remain stuck with one of the 3 pharmacies, still call them and tell them the above but get your medication at the pharmacy you remain stuck with but do not buy any consumer items there. Buy your consumer items elsewhere from now on. Make the phone calls because they will wake up these pharmacies and tell them that the middle class will not put up with patented medication that costs 60 dollars or more a month. We will force it down to 30 dollars a month.

http://endthewar.dmocrats.org

http://wage.dmocrats.org

http://medicare.dmocrats.org

http://www.dmocrats.org

http://buyblue.biz

[meow2u3]

49. That--and outlaw for-profit health insurance

Obscene profits for the top execs amount for the bulk of the skyrocketing premiums coupled with the arbitrary denial of payments for services listed on the policies. Common sense says these practices amount to racketeering, and IMO, the captains of the health care industry are no better than the Mafia....BTA, I think the mob either has its tentacles in, or is actually in charge of, the health care and pharmaceutical industries.

Execs--and the shareholders who buy stock in insurance companies--are effectively rewarded for killing the most vulnerable among us: sick kids, sick old folks, and the disabled. I think those execs deserve a long stretch in the slammer, and I don't mean Club Fed.

[PA Democrat]

99. I had my insurance company deny payment for a procedure

stating that it was for a "preexisting condition" which it most definitely was not. I did some research and found out that this company had been investigated in the state of Connecticut for the same thing. Seems they routinely deny treatment for catastrophic illness by stating that it was a preexisting condition. In the vast majority of the cases, the denial was completely unfounded.

So what did the head of that state's Dept. of Insurance (a former insurance company executive BTW) do? Allowed the company to pay back its customers for the treatment they had denied and basically just promise not to do it again. No fines, no penalties for what should be considered a crime. The Connecticut State Attorney General was so outraged, that he broke tradition by publicly criticizing another member of state government. His press release is here:

http://insurancetransparencyproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/blumenthalrelease.pdf

The whole system is set up to protect the insurance industries profits. Greedy profiteering pigs have no place in health care. I am at the point that I want to publicly humiliate these CEOs and medical directors who are making decisions to wrongly deny payment. If I robbed a gas station and shot the clerk, my name and picture would be all over the evening news and the local papers. Why are these pigs in the insurance companies allowed to harm and even KILL people by wrongly denying payment for life-saving treatment and get away with it? Why aren't their names and pictures all over the news? If the corporate news won't cover their crimes, maybe it's time to take it upon ourselves to let the friends and neighbors of these greedy bastards know how they make a living.

[raccoon]

106. I had my insurance company deny payment for a procedure

Totally agree with you about those "these CEOs and medical directors who are making decisions to wrongly deny payment."

Great post.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

158. Ha! Some of the worst gougers are allegedly "non-profit"

They don't show a profit, but their execs make big bucks.

[kurth]

169. They deserve a long and painful demise

that's what the motherfuckers deserve.

[magellan]

31. Yeah, cheap & cheery health coverage

They smile as they take your money, which pays for basically nothing when you need it. I'm thinking what's the point. Might as well burn your money!

My husband wants proper coverage since we're in our 40s and 50s, and I see his point. But damn, this is infuriating. I was happier when we couldn't afford health insurance...even though that was a crap shoot.

[question everything]

34. Have you tried a different carrier?

You may want to make some phone calls.

[magellan]

60. We're going to phone around

From the prices we've seen online it seems comparison shopping will be worth the effort, even if we wind up going somewhere else every year to get the best possible deal.

[magellan]

135. Thought I should let you know what our broker said

First, yearly rate increases are the norm. She also told me that switching each year to get a better price won't work for long because the carriers look at that and will simply deny coverage if you have a history of jumping from one to another. At that point I commented that they treat us like a captive audience and she averred that that was correct (and added that she'd be very happy to be put out of business by socialized healthcare).

So eventually we all have to pay what they demand or go without.

[Carni]

47. I wouldn't recommend that

I just racked up a 25,000 dollar bill in Dec 06 and they are already suing me--they refuse to take payments.

[madmom]

115. used to be in the "olden days" if you owed some one money and

offered them something on the account but not the whole thing, and they refused you could say "oh well I tried to pay you, you refused to accept my money consider yourself paid in full"!
Don't know if this was wide spread or not but my SO did this back in the late 60's with a divorce attorney and that was the last he heard of him.

[bunkerbuster1]

2. They don't really want you to remain their customer.

This is how it works:

They offer a somewhat affordable plan to start. However, pre-existing conditions aren't covered.

A year passes. Rates are raised. However, they will offer you the old rates if you go to a higher deductable.

Which you'll do, grudgingly.

Another year passes. Rates are raised. However, they will offer you the old rates if you go to an even higher deductable.

Which you'll do, grudgingly.

Another year passes. Rates are raised. Period.

You go in search of another insurer. They won't cover pre-existing conditions. But they can start you at a lower rate.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

None of the insurance companies expect you to stay with them for long, and they sure don't expect to actually pay any of your medical expenses save for a very few doc visits which are typically covered.

I speak from some experience, obviously.

[ComerPerro]

4. That's what I hate about insurance of any kind, but espeically health insurance

You buy a policy, you pay every month and don't use it. Then, when you do use it, they penalize you, for using a service you have been paying for these past several years! The insurance companies actually act like they are doing you a favor when they pay on a procedure. Its as though you suddenly owe them more because they decided to help you out of the goodness of their heart!

[bunkerbuster1]

14. It's just a matter of time before this country goes to a single-payer system

might be ten years, might be fifty, but it will happen.

It's really just a matter of how much tribute will have to be paid by the pirates who act as gatekeepers to our medical profession, that is, the insurance industry. I am not optimistic about this transition phase--I think we will be fscrewn in many ways we haven't even imagined yet.

[windbreeze]

29. Wait until you have two insurances....and they argue over who isn't going to pay

and we are going through the rate raise business right now...They are going to force us off....one way or another...my husband had a 5 way bypass 10 years ago...we cannot afford to be w/o insurance...but the premiums have gotten so high...plus deductibles, and co pays...that I don't know how long we can afford it, now that he retired...jumped $100 bucks this month...for a fixed income...that's a lot of moola...(we pay almost $800 per month)
wb

[magellan]

32. You nailed it

We'll have had insurance for a year next month when the rate increase takes effect. And funny enough, using one of the links someone provided below, I was able to get a quote on an almost identical policy, underwritten by our current company (Golden Rule), for the same price we're paying now.

I'm putting hubby on to it; we'll see if they let us change to the alternative cheaper provider.

[kurth]

170. Same here

It's a goddamned scam that ought to be banned in any civilized society.

[ComerPerro]

3. but gee, aren't you glad to live here in the land of the free, where you can see any doctor you want

(as long as your HMO approves) and have access to the best health care (you can afford) and have access to top notch medical facilities and procedures (as longs as your Insurance decides to pay for it)?

ugh...

Just all the myths and lies that conservatives spread about nationalized and/or single-payer health care.

"You have to wait a year to see a doctor!" (even if that were true, things aren't much better here in the US where it would take me ten years to pay for the treatment!)

[Freddie Stubbs]

6. And yet people keep immigrating here

[ProudDad]

77. Only because here is where

most of the world's PLUNDER is stored...

[raccoon]

107. Many of those immigrants have no medical insurance in their original

country and make so little there that minimum wage looks good to them.

[magellan]

37. Well to be honest, our one major experience with the UK healthcare system wasn't great

My husband started having arrhythmia, and the GP was USELESS. Wouldn't give us a clear understanding of what was wrong, didn't have the time for our questions and pushed us off on the specialist -- who we initially had to wait 3 months to see. (I ranted and raved until they pushed it up a month.) For two months my husband worried he was going to have "the big one" because of that, but once he was in specialist care it was good. Turned out it was only stress...a lot of it caused by the GP.

But indeed, we'd take the British system over this NON-system any day of the week. I used to think healthcare was bad here before I moved to the UK -- I had my own horrifying experience with an HMO -- but now it's just DEPLORABLE.

And to think we have the nerve to consider ourselves the "greatest" nation on earth. Bah! Greatest at ripping off everyone and their mother is more like it.

[Raven]

5. I'll rant with you! How about $893 a MONTH for an individual

policy! That's what I pay and there are deductables and co-pays. I'm afraid that there is no such thing as a cost effective health insurance policy unless you go with a huge deductable and essentially self-insure.

Remember, health insurance in this country is a money making proposition and tons of money is made. Between the insurance companies and the drup companies, we're screwed. The other people who are getting screwed are the docs who go through years of expensive schooling only to have to spend hours filling out forms and only minutes with their patients.

[ComerPerro]

8. Heh, the last time I ever bought my seizure medicine it was $550 for a month

Naturally, I have since stopped visiting my neurologist and no longer take meds.

[lildreamer316]

20. I will

be holding you in my lightworking,if you don't mind.
Hope no offense.

[Warpy]

10. I wish I could find one for that little.

The only plan that will insure me is Blue Cross, and then they will only pay 80% of the bill. I can go bankrupt for that 20% just as easily as for that 80%, so I've decided to hold my breath and wait. Plus, until last winter when my dad died, it was always a choice between paying an insurance company and paying my mortgage. Since a roof over my head contributes more to my health than a fat insurance executive does, my choice was obvious.

As far as the rest of the plans out there are concerned, I am uninsurable. I was an RN who couldn't get hired as regular staff because nobody wanted to put me on their insurance plan. I turned into just another worker who couldn't afford what s/he produced.

I have been without insurance for 20 years and that means going without preventive care and only getting care when something is obviously broken.

It is a horrible way to live. This country is cruel to its citizens.

[Virginian]

88. They only pay 80%

of the bill, but then they have negotiated the part they really pay the doctor to a lot less than that. They may be paying the same amount as your 20% when they finally pay.

I am moonlighting for a Doctor who wants to drop insurance completely and charge the patient $50 a visit. He charges less than that if they don't have the money.

He showed me a w-2 from last year showing less than $1,000 paid for the entire year. He said at one time that insurance would have paid him $70k during a calendar year.

[Warpy]

104. he's right, everybody's taken a pay cut but insurance execs

I finally found a private practice GP in this town, a vascular surgeon who dropped out of the HMO rat race a few months ago and opened up a storefront drop in clinic and advertises he does house calls. He's got the bedside manner of a puff adder that is trying to digest a Volkswagen, but he's got the right idea.

I have a funny feeling that other docs are going to be joining his practice or opening up clinics of their own, offering affordable basic care to people like me without insurance.

[magellan]

39. OMG, that's outrageous!

For that amount you should be able to get the doctor to come to YOU!

I know, health insurance like everything else here is for profit. That's why I'm so angry with this. I've been bumping my head up against corporate greed in general for a while now, and today was just the frosting on the cake.

[Pharaoh]

45. one word....Capitalism

it is the biggest evil on earth yet the capitalists will tell you socialism(actually taking care of people verses corporations) is the spawn of satan. It boggles the mind what the sheep will believe.

[magellan]

56. Well, I'm not opposed to capitalism as long as it's well regulated

This unregulated crap the Repugs keep ramming down our throats is the problem. No oversight, no interest in what laws are broken even when lives are destroyed -- corporations are bloodsuckers, plain and simple. They shouldn't be trusted to do what's right; precious few of them will on their own.

But I agree with you on the view of socialism. Do the 70% or so Christians in this country not realize that RELIGION is a form of socialism? The community spirit engendered by local churches -- help thy neighbor, charity work, etc -- is socialism at its finest (as long as it isn't discriminatory). And just try to take SOCIAL security away from retired Repugs.

Ignorance is holding this country back.

[KansDem]

143. Capitalism is wonderful for fast food, CDs, and baseball caps...

But for health care and energy, it is woefully inadequate due to the reasons you cited. Energy and health need to be nationalized...pure and simple. It's a national security issue.

[aikoaiko]

7. Sometimes associations have group plans -- have you checked out

the small business associations?

[magellan]

40. We haven't

We actually run a business in the UK so I'm not sure we'd qualify. But it's worth a look-see. Thanks for the tip!

[ProudDad]

79. The only ones I've heard about

are SCAMS!!!

Be VERY careful...

[aikoaiko]

108. Sounds like ProudDad is giving good advice

[Big Blue Marble]

9. If you are fairly young and fairly healthy,

consider the combination of high deductibles and health savings accounts. That way
at least, you pay the deductibles and co-pays with untaxed dollars and if you do
not use the funds in the health savings accounts, it's yours to keep.

[DemReadingDU]

15. Spouse & I have an HSA this year

$468 per month covers both of us. Spouse retired early, and we are not yet old enough for Medicare, so we had to get our own health coverage. Annual physical exams are covered, plus female pap and mammogram. :)

Deductible is $5000, but it is in an untaxed HSA account. Prescriptions are expensive (they are paid from the HSA), but we get a discount from the insurer. What isn't used in the HSA account, carries over from year to year.

I expect the monthly premium will increase next year :(

[ProudDad]

81. HSAs are UTTER BULLSHIT

It's the same old repuke bullshit about You have to take care of YOU and if you're among the 80+ percent of folks who can't, then FUCK YOU!!! Go die under a freeway overpass somewhere say the repukes (and "conservative" Dems)...

Bullshit.

When it comes to the selfish FUCKS who run this country and define its approach to limited access to high priced "health insurance" with no guarantee of care instead of HEALTH CARE FOR ALL (for less money), I get ballistic!!!

GOD, HOW I HATE THE BASTARDS!!!

[MiniMe]

105. I disagree, they have their place

But not as the sole form of health insurance. I put enough in mine to cover a pair of new glasses, and the copay on my prescription, and dental bills (if I know about them in advance.

While I think they have their place with those kinds of things, it is not insurance, and should not be mistaken for insurance.

[RB TexLa]

119. That's a FSA

A HSA is for paying medical costs, you couple it with a high deductible insurance plan.

[magellan]

42. I'm just opposed to HSAs

Maybe unreasonably. But it doesn't sound any better than what we're already facing with straight insurance, considering what DemReadingDU says above. Pay for the pleasure of having what's essentially a savings account? And what happens if you take money out and get terribly sick the next month? :scared:

[RB TexLa]

62. You have the money in the account invested, it grows tax free

If you take the money out, you are putting money back in either once a year, quarterly, or monthly plus you are earning on the money in the account as I said. If you put the maximum in at the begining of the year you have 12 months of tax free earnings. After you have taken your deductible out for the year your insurance plan kicks in. If you can get by without spending large amounts on health care you get more money when you hit 65.

Think about it, if you keep the lower deductible plans and no HSA how much do you get to keep if you avoid health costs? None.

[magellan]

64. I'd like to trust HSAs

But I'll admit I don't because it was Bush**'s idea, so I figure there's got to be one gigantic shoe to drop somewhere in it. And I don't want it dropping on us. But I'm listening. Where's the snag in this plan? You pay taxes on anything you withdraw for personal use, right? At what rate?

Sorry to be paranoid, but 6 years of watching the antics of BushCo and the corporatists has really worn thin with me.

[RB TexLa]

68. You pay taxes and a 10% penalty on anything withdrawn before age 65 that is not for medical

use. It's a health account. There are waivers to the penalty for disability and some other things. You put the money in with it set in your budget and mind that it is only for health use and hopefully a nice 65th birthday present to yourself. If you invest it wisely and are able to avoid health issues it can grow nicely. If it grows well after a few years you do not have to put as much in as you can have plenty to cover a yearly deductible.

It wasn't Bush's idea, the idea came from the financial industry. Insurance companies like it for the reasons they always like lower premiums and higher deductibles, stays on the books and puts them off the hook for smaller more routine things.

Here is the treasury's page on HSA's. The "All about HSA's" page answers many questions. They aren't for everyone, but they are a good deal.

http://www.treas.gov/offices/public-affairs/hsa/

[magellan]

71. Okay, I'll admit it

You've opened my eyes to the possibility of HSAs. We'll check out the link and ask our broker about it too.

Thank you so much for taking the time to elaborate. :hi:

[RB TexLa]

72. No problem.

Be sure to ask every question you have. I have been very general about them.

Good luck. :)

[DemReadingDU]

92. I was hesitant about HSA too, but

Regular insurance plan got too expensive every month, and the HSA is cheaper, at least for now. The amount that you put into the HSA account can be taken off the top of your income when filing taxes every April. :)

And you don't have to have your insurance company setup the HSA at their associated bank. If they have to setup the HSA at a bank for you, then there will probably be a processing fee and a monthly service charge with the bank handling the HSA account. I went to my bank and learned that it could setup the HSA for me with no additional charges because I already had an account there. :)

Here is the Anthem Lumenos Q & A sheet that may have additional info
http://www.anthem.com/wps/portal/cdhp?content_path=cdhp/co/f1/s1/t7/pw_ad082642.htm&product=HSA&rootLevel=0&state=co_grp&label=Questions%20^%20Answers

edit to add the same link, in tiny format
http://tinyurl.com/2p5tuf

[magellan]

114. Thanks!

All the info is an enormous help in sorting this out. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

159. This assumes that you have the financial resources to

pay the monthly costs of even a high-deductible plan (even that's expensive if you're over fifty) AND put a few hundred in savings on top of what you're already putting aside for other purposes?

It's a fantastic tax shelter for the affluent. I considered it, but realized that it would make me "insurance poor" in the same way that some people are "house poor."

[Marrah_G]

11. Check with your chamber of commerce

You can often buy into a group plan and it costs less.

[magellan]

43. Are you talking about the small business association?

Someone above suggested that too. I'm not sure we'd qualify as our business is in the UK. But it's worth checking out, thanks!

[Marrah_G]

48. Yes, SBA works also

CoC can generally point you in the direction of associations like a local SBA.

I'm going from a self employed consultant position to full employee in July and my boss is going through the SBA for mine and my assistant's insurance. Thankfully it won't hit him too hard since MA has a bunch of new programs to help small businesses afford healthcare. The state is actually kicking in a good amount of the cost.

[magellan]

59. You and your boss are fortunate

I'm doubtful FL will be as helpful -- if we even qualify. But I've had one of those days (on top of that wonderful piece of news in the mail). Maybe we'll be surprised!

[ProudDad]

82. I'd rather the chambers of commerce

dry up and FUCKING DIE.

They're among the main reasons we don't have health care in this country in the first place.

FUCK 'EM!!!!!!!!

[Marrah_G]

98. True but if they can point a small business owner to a group health plan it's worth a call

[guitar man]

12. tell me about it

My ins carier at work has collected more than $22k in premiums from me over the last 4 years, 1/3 of that I have paid out of pocket (paycheck deduction) and the other 2/3 of the premium is the part I earn from my employer.

Now, I just added up what we have spent in med bills over that same period, including the birth of my daughter and it added up to around $9k.

So if my math is correct, that means they have turned 140% profit from servicing my family's medical bills. But, we get an email from corporate telling us that next enrollment period the rates are going up!?

give me a fucking break :grr:

[Supersedeas]

27. making a killing -- hand over fist

[Decruiter]

30. Same here. If we had put what we paid the insurance company into the

bank instead, we would not be in debt now. We had a major health crisis last summer, emergency type situation, multiple doctors, day surgery, anesthisia, 6 week recovery plus many more doctor visits. We can't wait to see Sicko and loved what we heard yesterday or this morning on C-Span about the ad Michael Moore took out in the Washington Post inviting all the health industry lobbyists to the screening.

Beautiful. It really is time for us "common folk" to look back to what lessons we can learn from our predecessors who fought so hard for social justice in the late 1800's into the 20th century.

Impeach the Bush regime and do some late "spring cleaning" of the House and the Senate. Granny D has always promoted brooms and mops.

[depakid]

13. "...since leaving the UK"

That was your first mistake.
What you're seeing is pretty much the norm in America- and it's only going to get worse until at least 2011.

[magellan]

53. It wasn't a mistake, actually

Income and property taxes in the UK combined with the very high cost of living were plowing us under. They have a 17.5% flat sales tax, and when we left gas cost in the region of $6.00 a gallon. 70% of the UK gas price is government revenue.

I like to remind my husband that all that taxation is why we kicked their butts out of THIS country long ago. ;)

I'm afraid their nationalised healthcare, though very reasonably priced (I think our contributions were somewhere around $50/month combined), didn't alleviate the other financial burdens. We're doing comparatively well here, treading water instead of going further down the drain every month as we were in the UK.

[ben_meyers]

57. What did I miss here?

Your cost of private health insurance here is to much, but your taxes in the UK are to high in order to pay for national health care? If you are self employed, like I am, you should be able to deduct your health care premiums at tax time. Talk to your financial people.

[magellan]

63. No, no

We run a business in the UK. We used to live there too, till the high taxes on ordinary cost of living expenses (property, sales, car, etc) drove us out. We can't deduct our US healthcare costs on our UK tax returns. We don't pay taxes here -- yet -- because we haven't earned enough. Next year we'll have to, so your advice is timely and appreciated.

[ProudDad]

84. You may change your mind

"We're doing comparatively well here, treading water instead of going further down the drain every month as we were in the UK."

Until, God forbid, you actually have a health emergency and find out that your "health insurance" won't cover SHIT. I wish you the best but buying into the myth of this bullshit "free country" is dangerous. Cowboy capitalism does great for the very few and FUCKS the rest of us.

[magellan]

90. I don't buy into the myth at all

And I've never been a proponent of cowboy capitalism. But having lived in the UK for several years, I think I'm capable of making a decent comparison between the general cost of living there and here. It's gotten worse in the US since we've moved here, but it's also worsened in the UK.

We're well versed in the perils of having insurance as well as being without it, which is why I'm so incensed at the rate hike. In the US, where health insurance is concerned, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[july302001]

95. and now....?!

So....

You left the UK because their taxes were too high, and the cost of gas (in a nation of small geographic area with more public transit options than the U.S.) was too high. I think ya made your decision already.

And, now, you're complaining about the costs of our private American system?!?

Whyncha just pay the &*&^**(% insurance bill and join the U.S. Libertarians who believe in privatising everything? You've already voted with your feet against the Queen's taxes and the NHS.

P.S. Hope you're in good health.

[magellan]

122. Toodles!

:rofl:

[youngdem]

16. You should consider catastrophic care with high deductable

You can carry insurance where you are responsible for the first $10,000 of health care each year or so, and the catastrophic insurance covers everything above that up to $1M or more, depending on your level of coverage.

I think most people should do this if they have a little cash on hand generally. They are not asking insurance to cover every little thing, which makes insurance very expensive, and they still have coverage, usually better than normal coverage because there is little denying the validity of the illness if you are catastrophically ill.

No insurance is perfect.

[magellan]

66. If we were younger we'd do that

But I'm in my 40s and hubby's in his 50s, and he's less compelled to run the increasing risk of forking over $10K as time goes on.

[ProudDad]

85. No insurance is perfect

But Canada's and Britain's and France's and Germany's and Spain's and New Zealand's and (shit) Italy's are a HELL OF A LOT CLOSER to perfect than here in the selfish empire of the U.S. of A. where the filthy rich get so much richer and the rest of us get fucked.

[dogday]

17. Michael Moore Tackles these issues in his movie Sicko

He talks about people with health care in this country just like you that are being used by privatized insurance for profit companies....

Canada, Great Britain and France all have free health care... Makes me sick....

[eridani]

41. That's "free at the point of service" health care

Not "free" health care. Just like your fire department putting out fires is free at the point of service.

[dogday]

118. They pay nothing

yes they pay their taxes, these countries strive to give their people quality healthcare...


If you had cancer or lost a limb, you would get good health coverage, and would pay the same amount of tax reagardless....

[Spazito]

120. Actually, we do pay a monthly premium, providing we are above a defined poverty

level, but that premium is very small. For example, I pay $49.00 a month for my health coverage and an additional $29.00 for my dental, optometric care and for reasonably priced prescription drugs. There are no co-pay or deductibles attached to that. If I find the need to go to the doctor or the hospital, I pay nothing extra with regard to my care.

The primary costs, overall, are covered by tax dollars and, imo, it is cheap at the cost overall.

[dogday]

140. In MM movie Sicko, every single person he interviewed

in Canada said it was for free... Except the insurance they take out when they come to the States... You should write to him and let him know that is the case as I got the idea from his film that people in Canada don't spend any money for health care (other than the taxes that are paid)...

[Spazito]

144. It depends on how the question is asked, imo

If Moore's question related to hospital bills after care, bills for seeing the doctor, etc, and the person responded they didn't receive any bills for that care, that is correct. If Mr. Moore asked if Canadians payed any monthly premium and Canadians said no, then they would have to have been found to be below the poverty line and then do, indeed, pay no premium.

I have yet to see Sicko so cannot determine the line of questions but I suspect it relates more to receiving bills for doctor, hospital care. I stand to be corrected, however, if someone has the actual transcript of the questions and answers.

[dogday]

149. It was how much money did you pay for the

Doctor or the hospital or your medication? I truly believe nobody paid anything.. If it is misleading, then it needs to be brought to his attention....

[Spazito]

151. Ahhh, the answer to those questions, then, could well be no

one does not pay the doctor and, in some cases they do not have to pay for their medications, they only have to show their healthcare card. Paying a premium based on income is very different especially when compared to US private health care insurance. Moore's question and the answers were not misleading in the least, imo. He did not ask if they paid a monthly premium at all, it seems, he asked them if they had to pay their doctor and the answer is, for everyone, no.

[eridani]

121. Paying taxes isn't "nothing"

Health care should be a public good, but public goods have to be paid for collectively.

[dogday]

139. We pay a great deal in Taxes, would like to see

some of that going to a health care program... They would pay taxes anyway, great that they take a portion of it to take care of it's people.....

[eridani]

156. What we need to do is to take the premiums that are wasted by private insurers--

add them to the share of our taxes already going to health care, and put them in one big pot and there's more than enough to take care of everybody. We don't need new taxes. As Kucinich always says "We are already paying for universal health care; we just aren't getting it."

[dogday]

176. I don't think we need new taxes anyway

There is so much waste in spending of our Tax dollars, I am sure we could come up with the amount without having to charge new tax...

[niyad]

18. see michael moore's newest, "sicko" --and see just how awful things really are here in the richest

nation in the world--and 37th in health care.

a total, complete disgrace.

[catmandu57]

19. You could try our plan

We have the ever popular JUST DON'T GET SICK plan with a 100% deductible. Seriously your situation sucks I wish I could help, but I don't know a thing about insurance.

[magellan]

80. You gave both me and hubby a laugh

...and after the day I've had (it got worse after my original rant) that's the best kind of help I could possibly ask for at this point! Thanks. :hi:

[LSK]

21. have you been to this site yet?

www.ehealthinsurance.com

[Cleita]

36. I used to get my health insurance from them and they are quite

good at sorting out what's available for the best price, but they can't solve the problem of affordable access to health care because the health plans are calling all the shots. Congress could have prevented a lot of this by legislating and limiting the amount of the deductibles and co-pays. It would have helped but insurance would still be expensive.

[magellan]

65. No, but it turns out my husband has

I went out there at your prompting, and without realizing managed to single out the same plan we're on now that's increasing its rates on us! Husband is having a good laugh at me. lol

We're going to call our car/home insurance broker tomorrow. They also do healthcare and have been very good to us since we moved to FL.

[Clark2008]

23. Jeezus.

For those prices, it might benefit you to just SAVE that money in short-term CDs and draw it out when you need it for medical coverage.

I had to do that when I was a single Mom and couldn't afford my own healthcare insurance. I paid $90 a month for my son's healthcare insurance (they put him in some sort of student group with more buying power, resulting in the reduced costs). For myself, since I'm still relatively young, I would just save back half of what it would have cost me to purchase healthcare at my work (I couldn't afford the whole $200 a month for myself) and used it when I needed to go to the doctor.

That method works, of course, when you don't get more than a sinus infection or a stomach virus, but it was the only thing I could do at the time.

[magellan]

83. If it were just me I'd do that

I'm only 44, still relatively young and in good health. My husband isn't keen on the idea though, and believe me, I pushed it after seeing the intended rate hike.

Is that a photo of your son (and baby daughter?) in your sig line? Both cutie pies!

[Clark2008]

174. I know - healthcare coverage in this country SUCKS.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And, yes, those are my kidlets. My son is 8 years old and my daughter is two weeks old today. :) I also think they're extremely cute, but I'm prejudiced. :7

[China_cat]

24. Read your fine print

You'll find at the very bottom that it says 'valid only until needed'.

[Cleita]

38. LOL!

Good one but so close to the truth.

[magellan]

67. ROFL

Too true, thank you for the laugh! :)

[Golden Raisin]

25. And of course our swell Congresspeople

have voted themselves and their families super-duper, gold-plated health insurance and never have to deal with the expense and bureaucratic horrors that average citizens confront with every insurance claim. If Congress had to cope like an average citizen, the dysfunctional disaster that passes for health insurance in this country would be fixed within 24 hours.

[dragonlady]

26. Russ Feingold had a great ad in the last election

You see him sitting there fiddling with the button on his shirt cuff, talking about the need for health care in the United States, and toward the end the camera pulls back and you see that he's getting ready to roll up his sleeve for a blood pressure check. He says something like, "I won't stop until everyone in America has the same health care that we in Congress have." It was a powerful ad. Of course, he can't do it alone.

[Coyote_Bandit]

28. I have only seen a doctor

twice in the last 15 years. Last visit was at an urgent care center about ten years ago. Fifteen years ago I had my last routine checkup. I pay about $275 a month for high deductible catastrophic health care coverage. I have no pre-existing conditions and only a minimal medical history. I'm afraid to see a doctor for even routine care. I've known several folks who did and lost what health coverage they had because they had precursors to various disorders and diseases. I realize that at some point in the future I will have to forego health care - and it may be care that is necessary to prolong my life.

Any citizen who ignores the issue or remains silent and any government leader who is not working to see that everyone in this country has access to health care is just as much to blame as those who profiteer off of the death and misery of fellow humans. The status quo is simply not going to change unless people demand that their leaders make it happen.

Personally, I am of the opinion that litigation should be brought against the government under the equal protection clause. Seems that Native American citizens are afforded health care. Seems to me that all citizens should be afforded at least that same level of care.

[magellan]

69. We deserve the same level of care that CONGRESS gets

Which they get on OUR dime, needless to add.

I'm with you, Coyote_Bandit. And I feel dirty buying into the system. Every time I write the health insurance check I know I'm validating these con artists. They've got us right where they want us and it's got to end.

Too bad there isn't a way to get a huge number of Americans to agree to STOP paying for health insurance all at once. That'd force the bastards in DC to do something.

[Breeze54]

33. What the HELL is health insurance??????

:shrug:

[magellan]

70. It's an effin' SCAM, that's what!

I guess I should feel fortunate that we earn enough now to (barely) afford the privilege of being bled dry. My sympathies really lie with those who have no coverage at all -- children and the elderly especially.

Either way it's hell...unless you're filthy rich. Like the people running the healthcare ponzi scheme.

[Cleita]

35. Also, those deductibles are per year and only for the

amounts they approve of. So if you get a chronic disease that requires expensive therapy, you must not only pay for your premiums but the deductible amount, which probably won't cover what your therapy actually costs. Then you must pay the co-pay after that, which is usually 20%. When the year ends you start all over again. It's a crime what they are doing.

Medicare for all. It's the only solution.

[magellan]

73. Agreed, Medicare for all

People should not have to make these kinds of choices with their health, or be forced to go without adequate health care period, based on what they can afford. It's just another of the many ways corporatism has hollowed out the heart of this country and left us standing in the dust of other, "less powerful" nations. This is nothing to be proud of.

[ProudDad]

86. HR 676

Conyers/Kucinich Medicare for all

Call your congress critters and RAISE HELL until they sign on and pass it...

[magellan]

91. Kucinich is my man

...and trust me, I've been all over this (even before today) :)

[Gatchaman]

44. Makes me feel better about working for the state

I may not get paid as much as some people in my field, but I'm only paying $446 per year for single coverage, $100 deductable, $15 office copay, and $4 prescriptions.

I definitely feel the pain of those being shafted by greedy insurance companies though. Good luck.

[magellan]

74. Wow, that's good!

After reading what you wrote, I wondered how your state does it. The answer must be with subsidies from the government, i.e. our (or just Pennsylvanians') tax dollars.

So if a little socialism is okay for state and federal employees, why isn't it okay for the American people as a whole? That question really needs answering by the government.

[robinlynne]

46. try an HMO if you can near you. or just getting major medical, i.e. catastrophic coverage, which

is less expensive. neither is ideal, I know. jsut trying to asnwer your immediate concerns, as opposed to CHANGING THIS COUNTRY, which is, of course, what we need to do.
Also, are you self-employed? There are often professional organizations which are worth joining, even if only to get group health insurance.

[magellan]

78. Oh, I had a very bad experience with an HMO some years ago

It would take a whole lot of bang for the buck to get me into an HMO again!

We are self-employed but our business is in the UK. (It's a very peculiar and rather unique situation.) So I don't know if we'd qualify for any professional organizations, like the local small business association. But we're going to check it out. Thank you!

[robinlynne]

111. I have kaiser. i'm in california. around 300 a month (I'm 49). no deductible. The

problem is there are good doctors and bad ones. you have to go get to know doctors until you find one you can trust. then the system "works", pretty much. yes you feel like a sheep in a corral and wait for hours, but once you find someone you trust, everything seems ot be ok. but I hve not had any serious illnesses since I've lived here..

[magellan]

113. Coincidentally it happened when I lived in CA and was on Kaiser

You're right, there are good docs and bad ones. I had a bad one. But my experience was more to do with Kaiser's criminally dangerous policies than the actual care given. This was some time ago as I said, I hope they've changed since then. I did make a formal complaint through my company.

[Cleita]

123. I was stuck with Kaiser when I lived in So. California.

The doctors were okay, when you finally were able to see one. It was the system that sucked big time. I actually had to ambush a doctor in the hallway to get some help once when I had a septic infection from a fall I had taken the day before on the concrete that I knew would be toxic if I didn't get some penicillin soon. Emergency and urgent care were swamped and I couldn't get an appointment with my primary for a couple of months. This is what the propagandists for the health care industry say NHC would be like. They don't like to talk about the fact that privitized HMOs operate just like that.

[philly_bob]

50. We're in same position, paying about the same $$.

Why not self-insure? Because there's an agreement in our family never to go without insurance.

We all know if one of us got a zillion-dollar illness, the others would have to bail them out, ruining their future.

It sucks to pay so much. The only hope is (1) single-payor universal or (2) Medicare for all or (3) wait till you're 65.

For-profit movie "free market" insurance companies aren't going to solve anything.

[magellan]

87. That's the blessed truth

For-profit movie "free market" insurance companies aren't going to solve anything.

Yep, my husband and I have gone through the very same risk analysis your family has. But it should NOT be this way.

I keep wondering what it's going to take to get this country straightened out (in all aspects, not just this, though it points straight back to the #1 cause of our sorrow: unbridled corporatism). And then I think I don't really want to know the answer to that question.

[pitohui]

51. no, you simply can't be self-employed in this country any more

one of you needs to get a job that provides includes health benefits for spouse and family

i never advise anyone to get into self-employment these days, working for myself was the worst mistake of my life and unfortunately after so many years of it i am unemployable at a job so i'm stuck w. it but i always advise the young NEVER to work for themselves, work for a larger co. so that your health insurance can't be snatched away from you

but if it is at all possible one of you must get a job w. benefits

private health insurance for self-employeds is not much better than being uninsured

[hunter]

132. My wife and I can't get private insurance. Period.

We've been on the wrong end of COBRAs too.

Insurance companies do everything they can to exclude people with chronic health problems.

Our current insurance, a group plan, is essentially a catastrophic policy. Every year we go over the limit, more than $10,000 and maybe closer to $15,000, and that's in addition to the obscene premiums we pay.

I honestly don't know what the point of my insurance card is. Yeah, it's something they can copy when I first see a healthcare provider, but when I meet them we both know we're going to get screwed over one way or another by the insurance company.

No matter how crappy I feel, I always try to be cheerful with doctors and nurses and therapists, because then maybe they will see me again even if the bills haven't been paid.

It's long reached the point where I simply don't give a damn about money. If a medical bill goes to collections and I start to get calls, so what? Once the collection agencies realize you simply can't care anymore, then they suddenly become less nasty dealing with you, like maybe if they are nice to you they'll you'll put them on the list of people you send partial payments to every month.

But I get so tired of it. I hope the U.S. gets a healthcare system of the sort all civilized nations have before I qualify for medicare, either by age or disability. Or maybe I'll get lucky and find a job with excellent health care benefits, although those seem to be getting rarer these days.

[treestar]

146. Now that's sad

Really. How hopeless. That means the capitalists DO run our lives. And they can take "our" jobs elsewhere, too.

I don't think it's that bad, but we do need more legislation to equalize the effects, in fact NASE did work on and get equal treatment of health insurance premiums - the employers write them off, so the self employed should be able to also.

The IRS naturally hates the self employed, and everything is set up for the employed, and there's a drag there.

More incentives for people to go into business should be enacted - that's one thing the corporatists don't want - they're afraid of competition.

[HardRocker05]

52. i've had it w/ insurance, period. it's a racket; they take your money every month, but when it come

comes time for them to pay on a legitimate claim, you know they're going to find some loophole to make sure they don't have to pay a dime. if you can't afford or don't have the know-how to wage a successful lawsuit against them, you're screwed. it happens every day, and the insurance companies know they can get away with it.

[orleans]

54. self employed and no insurance. ta da! n/t

[rasputin1952]

55. The ONLY reason hat there is not Universal Health Care in

this country is because insurance companies would lose billions in liquid cash.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors. I listened to a doc tell me about "rising malpractice premiums)...sure, he has a $450,000 house that is paid off, 4 cars, a fistfull of very healthy kids, and belongs to every club in the area.

I told him that if some docs weren't so bad they get sued every 12 days, their would be little to no problem. But there are bad docs out there, and as long as they practice, and make tragic errors, everyone else will pay for it, "tough luck, doc".

He was pissed about that, but it is the truth, bad docs kill and maim people ever day, but the state Medical Boards allow them to "practice" on...x(

[Morgana LaFey]

58. I think I've found a solution for myself -- some of you may be interested

My COBRA runs out in July. I've been remiss about doing the studying I need to, but this thread has me hysterical.

EXCEPT that the other day I'd run across some information offered by an organization that I'm a member of, and this thread made me look up some of the details on that. This looks very interesting -- and definitely affordable (under $200/month) for other than catastrophic coverage. It's called a Defined Benefit Medical Plan.

Because the "organization" offering it is commercial (and a very fine commercial outfit), I feel funny posting anything more about it here, but I can say this: it's definitely worth looking at if for no other reason than to know what's out there. Anyone interested, please PM me. I'll be signing off soon but checking in again tomorrow probably afternoon or evening.

I'm really psyched about this/. It's not an unlimited plan (not unlimited doctor's office visits, for example), but it covers doctor's visits, wellness visits, emeregency room, diagnostic testing, Xray and lab, some hospitalization and surgery and anesthesia, and it pays along with other insurance you might have. Choose your own doctor or use their PPO list for reduced out of pocket expenses. This looks like an answer to a prayer for this 59-year old with a typical array of those pre-existing conditions the insurance companies don't like -- at all. Catch this: two levels of benefit, either $121 or $179/mo. for an individual, NO HEALTH QUESTIONS ASKED!! I'm thinking I can pick this up, and then consider fairly high deductible catastrophic insurance to supplement. That's exactly what I need: a few doctor's visits a year, some diagnostic stuff (just in case), and then catastrophic coverage.

[pitohui]

75. get a reference from someone in your area who has done this

you may find out that if you have two insurance plans that there is finger pointing and neither plan covers your payments in time to save your credit rating if you have a serious accident or illness

in my experience if something is too good to be true, it isn't

[Morgana LaFey]

152. Good advice, but I trust the company thru which this is being offered

Thanks for the heads up

[ProudDad]

89. BE VERY CAREFUL

There are as many scam artists selling "health insurance" as there are "legitimate" health insurance companies (an obvious oxymoron that!).

Check this book out:

http://www.amazon.com/Sick-Untold-Americas-Health-Crisis/dp/0060580453

"Sick: The Untold Story of America's Health Care Crisis---and the People Who Pay the Price" by Dr. Jonathan Cohn.

[Morgana LaFey]

153. Oh, I'm very sure this isn't a scam

PM me and I'll send you the link if you like. Again, I trust the company thru which this is being offered.

[datasuspect]

93. are you in marketing?

[Morgana LaFey]

154. no nt

[Lorien]

61. I'm self employed and I'm with Golden Rule (United Health care)

I haven't had to use the insurance yet, but it only costs me (an individual) $189.00 a month. I can't remember what the deductible is. I had been with NASE (National Association for the Self employed) and that was a total scam. They never covered ANYTHING and I was left $32,000 in debt after several procedures. The monthly cost for NASE's non-coverage was $285.00.

[magellan]

127. Same as us

We're currently on their Plan 100.

According to another DUer, rate hikes every year is usual. And our broker informed me today that we can't play the comparison shopping game each year to offset those rate hikes because carriers will just start turning us down for switching too much.

How long have you had your coverage?

[Lorien]

134. Less than a year

so I suspect that it will go up at some point. The NASE insurance went up once, sometimes twice a year. I paid out many thousands to them (NASE) over ten years and never saw a dime in coverage. It's downright criminal.

[ProudDad]

76. I hate to break it to you but $1740 a quarter for 2 people

is cheap in this fucked up country.

SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE NOW!!!

Call your congresscritter and DEMAND that they pass HR676.

[Vinca]

94. We're self-employed, too, and my only advice to you is to not age

and - above all else - never get sick. In 1997 we had a decent insurance with a $3500 deductible at about $750 a quarter. High for the time, but affordable for us. Over the years it got higher and higher and higher. We upped the deductible to $5,000. It continued to go higher and higher and higher. Did I mention we never filed a claim? Finally, about 4 years ago, it went to the stratosphere: $1,200 a month with a $5,000 deductible. We could go to $1,000 a month with an $8,000 deductible (and, of course, the policy only covers 80% of costs when it does kick in). Neither was affordable and we had to drop it in favor of the keep-your-fingers-crossed-until-you-hit-65 plan. Why on earth did you leave the UK for this??

[magellan]

130. I know this is what we're facing

By switching to a new carrier we'll get by for another year or two. But if they keep raising rates we'll be priced right out of the market again.

We left the UK for a number of reasons. The one that's pertinent to this thread is the cost of living; it's much higher in the UK and it was becoming impossible for us to keep our heads above water. Moving here (an option available to us because I'm American) was partly tactical. It helped save our business and it's growing now.

[july302001]

96. here's your problem:

You left the UK. You came to the U.S.

You voted with your feet.

You don't like the high taxes, socialized medicine, or gasoline taxes that you experienced in Europe.

Now, put up or shut up. You voted with your feet, and you're a part of the American health care system. You're here to make money, so pay your bills!

Put that poster of Ronnie Reagan back up on the wall, and get on with your own individual life, which is the purpose that you came to the U.S. and left "socialist" Great Britain.

You are responsible for your own decisions. If you want it any other way, go back across the Pond.

[july302001]

97. This post infuriates me

Honestly, this post infuriates me.

You come from a country in Europe to America, which is well-known to have privatised health care. I can't believe you didn't read the newspapers in your home country before coming here. You knew that health care was going to be expensive here.

And, then, you complain.

One of the conditions of coming to this country is that you accept the concepts behind this country. One of these fundamentals, since the early 1980s is the Reagan ideal of self-sufficiency, which is why you left YOUR country that has higher taxes and nationalized health care.

Now, whaddaya want? If you don't like it, GO HOME.

In Europe, health care is viewed as a human right, and also gasoline costs more because there are a lot more options available other than one's own personal car.

Either you accept the way we do things here in the United States, or you go back home.

It's up to us AMERICANS to do the changes that are needed to our health care system. I believe that we need plenty of those changes.

It's fine for Europeans and Britons who live in their home countries (and accept their home countries' politics, taxes etc.) to share solutions and ways to fix the health care system.

But for someone who is already a "tax refugee" from "socialist Europe" to come here and COMPLAIN about the very thing that you came here for IN THE FIRST PLACE (lower taxes and more privatisation) really GETS MY GOAT.

[PA Democrat]

100. PSST! The poster is an American. This is her home.

No need to be so nasty. The problem is our for-profit health care system which is pricing many Americans, most especially the self-employed, completely out of affordable health insurance.

[agtcovert]

101. I think you need to chill.

She's asking for some opinions and help...and you don't know her background or circumstances, so how about a little compassion.

You may also want to reflect on what boards you choose to post on, because I have a feeling you may have wandered a little too far left.

Just sayin'.

[Lyric]

102. Well that was the last thing I was expecting to read at DU today.

America--LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!11

:puke:

[Lars39]

103. I was born here and I'll be damned before I accept the Reagan ideal of anything.

Are you aware that one of the owners of this site is a Brit?

[Zuiderelle]

116. "Either you accept the way we do things here in the United States, or you go back home."

Hello? This is a progressive website, right? "Go back home" isn't how progressives solve issues.

I take from your post that you admire Ronald Reagan and his policies. I think you're in the wrong place.

[magellan]

125. PA Democrat is right: I'm an American, born and bred

Which pretty much renders the rest of your nasty assumptions about me and why I'm living here null and void.

However, your attack reveals two things about you: 1) you know nothing about the EU (people move here for "more privatisation"? That's a new one by me!); and 2) you're in the wrong place, because telling a Brit or otherwise living in America to "GO HOME" just because they might disagree with how something is done in this country isn't democratic OR American. But it sure is a familiar refrain. I wonder where I've heard it before.....

[Radio_Lady]

168. Magellan, I wish you good luck in getting some health insurance.

I see the poster, july302001, has been tombstoned. Apologies for those tirades...

My husband's employer went bankrupt and we both immediately lost our health insurance (the company was SELF INSURED).

He was over 65, so he signed up for Medicare and Kaiser's Senior Advantage.

However, I was several years away from full Medicare benefits. No private insurance company would even insure me!!!

For those years, we had to pay almost $500 a month just for me, under Oregon's Medical Insurance Pool, which I qualified for because there were NO COBRA benefits. I was lucky to get that. It was a terrible blow to our pocketbook -- the highest price we've ever had to pay for any insurance.

Now we are both under Kaiser's plan. I agree that it is difficult to manage via telephone, but there is a silver lining -- I found a young doctor who is reasonable and with whom I can communicate via email.

I guess this is it for us. My husband will be 73 next Saturday, and I am 68.

I feel so badly for all the people in the U.S. We just visited Britain and things were so very expensive there because of the declining dollar vs. the pound.

Let us know what you figure out. I'd be interested in reporting on it.

By the way, we're going to the preview of "Sicko" at 12 Noon tomorrow.

[magellan]

171. Thanks, Radio Lady

I'm sorry to hear what you and your husband went through. Our system is unfair to everyone one way or another...except those for whom premiums amount to pocket change -- or who get five-star coverage on our dime at reduced rates, like state and federal employees.

Since my husband and I are both healthy and middle-aged, we're going to take another look at catastrophic coverage as a way to (hopefully) see us through till Medicare kicks in. It's not perfect and entails risk -- we were both opposed to even considering it at first -- but we've realized that can be said of any of the insurance policies available. At least it will be something, and the payments won't put us back in the poor house. We've worked so hard to get beyond eking out our lives, I'll be damned if we'll let corporate greed get the better of us now.

I'll let you know what we decide. Please give us a report on Sicko! I look forward to reading what you think of it.

[july302001]

109. an ideological choice

My POINT is that the poster already said that he or she came to the States to escape Great Britain's high taxes.

The poster KNEW that the United States was the place where he or she would meet the goal of paying LESS TAXES, precisely because, since the Reagan era, our country has been very vigorously AGAINST anything that even comes close to "socialized medicine."

This is the country of pure individualism. That is why the poster came to this country, to get away from England and the taxes there.

The poster obviously was disappointed that Margaret Thatcher didn't go far enough in cutting British taxes..or s/he would have stayed in England. Well, maybe that's because Maggie Thatcher didn't dismantle the NHS in England.

By the way, I'll have ya know that if an American tries to seek medical care in Europe, they need to pay on their own through their insurance.

So, the poster who CAME TO THIS COUNTRY TO ESCAPE "SOCIALISTIC TAXES" and now COMPLAINS about the cost of our private health insurance system has no ground whatsoever to stand on in their complaints.

I am happy to hear valid discussion and comparisons regarding health care from the RESIDENTS of European countries who accept their own sociopolitical systems. But to hear this from someone who has already voted with their feet for the Reaganite ideal (because apparently Maggie Thatcher didn't go far enough) is particularly galling for this UNINSURED American who is in the United States because of the accident of birth.

I am also happy to hear from Americans who have moved to Europe perhaps because they prefer the way medicine and transit are handled over there.

I realize I sound unhospitable, but I believe this poster has plenty of financial resources from his or her endeavors as a business owner who is here as a "tax refugee" afford health insurance.

SO STOP COMPLAINING.

When I say, "love it or leave it," it's hardly in the McCarthyite sense. It's in the sense that the poster made an *active ideological choice* to come to America to avoid high European taxes. The poster should live with, and in fact, take pride in, the consequences of that choice. He should have a big, broad smile on his face every time he or she mails in that health insurance bill.

[PA Democrat]

112. Wow! YOU "believe" that the poster has plenty of resources to afford

How would you feel if people made nasty comments about your uninsured status, without knowing the details of your situation? Or are you the only person entitled to make such judgments?

BTW, don't expect to make too many friends here with your attitude.

[Zuiderelle]

117. delete

Never mind... I should learn not to argue with walls.

[pitohui]

129. it doesn't appear to be an ideological choice, it appears the OP is an american citizen

i think you have put your foot in it bigtime and the best thing to do is apologize and move on

if the poster was a brit who came here, saved a million in taxes, and simply failed to invest the money wisely to provide for health care in her older years...you might have an argument

but this does not appear to be the situation at all, not at all

[treestar]

145. How do you know why the poster came to the US from the UK?

There can be a lot of reasons that aren't political. Maybe it was marrying a US citizen? Or maybe to be near parents who live in the US?

We all learn in our lives, too - a person could come here not realizing how tough it's going to be to be self-employed - in fact, most of American's hype is about how entrepreneurial we allegedly are, so actually one would expect that if one works, one can afford private health insurance.

[magellan]

147. Actually, I'm the American citizen and my husband is British

But I thank you and the others who rushed to my defense.

In the early 90s I moved to the UK, married and lived there until 2003 when we decided, for several reasons -- our business among them -- that overall we'd be better off here. And we are...as long as you don't factor in unaffordable health insurance and my general depression over what BushCo is doing to this country.

Our business is in the UK. The magic of the internet allows us to manage it and work from here.

[dkofos]

110. It would be cheaper to buy a plane ticket back to the UK and get

your treatment there.

[Cleita]

124. Yes, probably even Cuba. n/t

[magellan]

126. Can't do that because we're no longer residents of the UK

Even though my husband is still a British citizen, UK healthcare coverage is contingent on residency. If we could have afforded to maintain residence in both countries we would have.

[pitohui]

128. seriously consider doing what we did

one of had to give up self employment and get a job that includes health benefits for the worker and immediate family

in my case my husband was able to get such a job

being self employed is a dead end road, even if you find private health insurance that you can afford, often it's a scam like nat'l assoc. for the self-employed or other assoc. insurance that doesn't really cover anything, or it goes month to month and what if one of you has an illness or injury that lasts longer than a month and they decide to cancel you or make up some reason not to pay? once i turned 40, my insurer was pushing me into more and more expensive plans almost every 3 months -- and i am a thin non smoker!

self employment is a ticket to losing everything you've worked for once you lose your health, seriously, if there is any way to get a job with benefits so you have a corporation fighting for your rights when you get sick, you must try to grab it

i don't know where we would be w.out my husband's co's insurance plan, i would likely have to commit suicide at some point so that he would not be left penniless after a lifetime of work

i really feel it's my duty and calling now to warn people against taking the path of starting their own business, the chance of a big hit is so small and the chance of not being insurable as you age is huge

[magellan]

131. It wouldn't make much sense in our situation

Our business keeps us both too busy 24/7 (literally, every day and at various hours) to take on anything but part-time work, which usually doesn't include benefits. And the hit from transportation costs would pretty much wipe out any income gains. We live in a rural area so a car is essential but it gets little use at the moment as we work from home.

Yep, I think we're looking at the "hope we make it to 65" plan.

[pitohui]

150. oh dear i was afraid it might be something like that

there's no time off when you're self-employed, is there?

[magellan]

161. It's hard for us to find time off in lengths

An hour here, a few hours there...you are/were self-employed, you know what I mean! And our sleep schedule is constantly being screwed up too, due to the time difference between here and the UK and who needs what when. We roll with it since our time is our own (and the commute is short when you work from home, lol)...but it pretty much rules out an outside job. Except maybe paper delivery.

[BlackVelvet04]

133. I feel your pain....

we are paying $600 a month for two people and have a $5000 deductible each.

If we didn't own our house I would just take my chances but I don't want to lose my house.

[magellan]

136. Just wow

And then you start thinking about what else you could have done with that money and it infuriates all the more. You could pay off your house quicker. You could better afford the "great economy" Bush** has handed us.

And if you do get sick, you go in the hole for your deductible on top of those monthly payments.

There will come a point when the healthcare insurers will price a majority of Americans out of the market. Then what will they do? They're probably already doing it: globalizing.

:mad:

[Vinca]

137. I think many more than 47 million are uninsured. They've been using

that number for years. We should stop using the number and say "1/6 of the American population." That's even more shocking.

[BlackVelvet04]

138. Every year we've had this insurance which is BCBS

Anthem, it has gone up right at $100 a month. I need to find a job with benefits but that usually requires a full time position and I really shouldn't be working full time. I had back surgery over 10 years ago and compared to most people I do quite well....I take no drugs for pain and am fairly active but I don't really have it in me to work full time and still take care of a home and deal with elderly parents.

Every month when I send in that payment I resent the hell out of it.

[sybylla]

141. dupe-self delete

[sybylla]

142. Self employed and in the same situation

We were with the same company for about five years but over time they jacked the cost of our high deductible insurance up to $2700 per quarter for a family of four last year and we couldn't afford it anymore. I think they were trying to get us to budge to the larger deductible policy just like your company is suggesting. We used to get three rate increases - two for our birthdays because we dared to live another year and one on our anniversary date for, as you say, "increased medical costs." The last increase was nearly $500 per quarter alone. I think I cried for a week after the bill arrived.

We shopped around and found something similar and much cheaper with a local insurance parasite attached to our clinic at $867 per quarter. We jumped through all the ridiculous hoops they make you jump through just to agree to accept you into their plan. But, as you may have guessed, now less than a year later we have yet to use the insurance and they're jacking it up to $1,107 a quarter. At this rate, I expect it will be unaffordable again in about two to three years and we will find ourselves among the ranks of the uninsured for the first time in our middle-aged lives.

If you're healthy, you can shop around. If not, it looks like you're either stuck with unaffordable insurance rates or no insurance at all.

I'm flirting with trying to find a job that has health insurance. It may take working a job and the business just to have health insurance.

What a country!

[magellan]

148. It's heartbreaking to read your story

...particularly because your children are caught up in this healthcare mess as well. It doesn't take a great imagination to wonder what happens to a family if a parent gets very sick or injured, can't work, perhaps even winds up disabled and unemployed, and is faced with medical bills because they either couldn't afford coverage or have a policy with a huge deductible.

We know this happens somewhere in America every day. Families are one illness/accident away from financial ruin.

And Bush** is busy vetoing stem cell research to protect frozen fetuses! I can only think it's so those zygotes can also one day be robbed, crushed and cast off by conservative values.

[warren pease]

155. Welcome to the land of the medically fucked...

You ask: "can anyone here who's self-employed with insurance recommend a good, cost-effective health insurance plan?"

The answer, of course, is no since there's no such thing as a health plan that's both good and cost-effective, unless you're employed by one of the few remaining pseudo-altruists who have a valuable work force and need to keep them happy and on the job.

My wife and I are both self-employed, both mid-50s, and both with fairly serious pre-existing conditions (which is to say, non-lethal, but reasonably high maintenance, pain-in-the-ass kind of diseases that might cost the for-profit parasites maybe a new Lexus every couple of years).

So we pay through the nose. We're in Oregon and there's a kind of public/private insurance pool for people who are denied coverage by the usual cast of sons of bitches, who only want to take premiums from 24-year-olds in perfect health with no dangerous habits or activities.

Paying through the nose in our case means about $1,050 a month for the two of us, plus co-payments, deductibles ("only" $500 each in this case), miserable pharmaceutical coverage, no vision or dental care. So that's more than $12,000 a year donated to for-profit medical entities who routinely squander between 25 and 40 percent on stuff that doesn't provide a penny's worth of health care -- exec salaries, paper shuffling, well-paid investigators whose entire job is finding a pretense to deny a claim, and of course share holder return.

And according to industry figures and analyst estimates for 2000 (the last year I have numbers for), at least 25 percent of this forced per capita largesse (some estimates range as high as 40 percent), or more than $1,000 for every man, woman and child in this country, was squandered on paper pushing, shareholder return, benefits verification, advertising, executive salaries and other elements of the managed care bureaucracy – none of which do a single thing to provide actual health care.

In 2000, the American health care system was a $1.3 trillion business. Which means that at least $325 billion and as much as $520 billion was wasted on non-medical items. Take just that money and you've got a considerable war chest to spend on an estimated 80 million uninsured and under-insured Americans. But that wouldn't be a market-based solution, so it's off the agenda.

This alleged "system" is broken primarily because it includes the for-profit insurance industry, whose mandates and objectives are in inevitable and irreconcilable opposition to those of its subscribers. But you'll notice that, other than Kucinich, all the rest of our blowhard candidates are all talking about expanding the current system or "universal coverage," or some such rot that specifically invites the same rapacious bastards to destroy any efforts at building a legitimate, first-world, single-payer system.

A new system that includes the main source of the current system's collapse makes no sense, and virtually guarantees it will grow to closely resemble the current system once the insurers stop making nice and get down to the serious business of making money.

And how did you know this is my favorite subject? I almost immigrated to Canada about 10 years ago for this reason only, although now in Bushland there are many, many more good reasons these days. Unfortunately, my wife nixed the idea in no uncertain terms. Which is weird, because she's at least as disgusted with this place as I am. But she's got close family ties and now a new granddaughter, so I doubt we're going anywhere any time soon.

Anyway, I wish I could offer more than stats and sympathy. You're now living in the world champ of don't-give-a-fuck capitalism, and this is just one of the ways we pay for our subservience to the mythology of the free market. So expect a life of institutional abuse, followed by a pine box and an unmarked grave. Oooo .... that's a little grim. You'll probably do better.


On edit: I forgot to mention... The reason we carry this usurious fucking policy at all is we have a house, a couple of paid-for cars, a couple of modest savings accounts and so forth. If either of us got sick enough to spend, say, a week in intensive care, the fuckers would own the house, the cars, the accounts and anything else that isn't nailed down.

And two more stats just to piss you off further: more than 50 percent of all bankruptcies filed in the US today are due to medical bills people just can't pay. Meanwhile, CEOs at the top 15 managed care companies made an aggregate $63.3 million in salary alone in 2001. They, along with eight additional high-level execs at these same companies, held stock options worth $109 million at the end of 2001. Doesn't that just warm your heart? And you can assume those salaries and option values have climbed nicely in the past seven years.

Anybody want to kidnap one of the bastards and force him to watch Blue Cross happy talk commercials non-stop for a couple of weeks?


wp

[magellan]

163. I know (sigh)

It's miserable. There are so many horror stories like yours and your wife's. And I got to experience how bad the system was myself back in the early 90s, before I got married and moved to the UK.

Incredibly, it's only gotten worse since then. America, the "greatest nation on earth"! :eyes:

I know I was asking a pointless question in my OP; I already knew the answer. But I wanted to rant and hope somebody had found a gem in the US healthcare insurance system no one else knew about.

It even ticks me off to call it "health care". It's no such thing. It's the antithesis to health care; it's a handful of rich bastards lining their pockets by stacking the insurance deck against people who need health services.

We're very fortunate that we have no pre-existing conditions except my husband's high cholesterol, which we're managing quite well, thank you very much, through diet and supplements. He's solid otherwise, no blockage or anything untoward according to a recent exam.

There isn't a single goddamn good reason why everyone in this country shouldn't be afforded the same level of healthcare benefits as state and federal employees -- and at the same cost!! Instead we have to pay their tab as well as our own, which is doled out grudgingly and at a much higher rate.

Stay well, wp. Maybe one day we'll all make it to "Canada".

[warren pease]

173. How the bastards justify it all...

To understand why for-profit medicine does such a woeful job of providing actual health care, it's first necessary to understand the nature of any public, for-profit American corporation. By statute, a publicly held corporation's sole responsibility is to maximize return on investment for its shareholders. Any nonsense about good corporate citizenship or civic duty is subordinate to that fiduciary obligation.

Because paying the bills for subscribers is directly contrary to the best interests of shareholders, managed care entities skimp, redefine, obstruct, obfuscate and generally chisel their way out of payment whenever possible.

And that's hardly surprising; in fact, that's exactly what they should be doing to meet their fiduciary responsibilities. It's called "prudent business practices" and is a given throughout corporate America. Asking a for-profit, publicly held corporation to behave otherwise would be like asking a shark to go vegan.

And, of course, the stats reflect that market ethos: Statistically, the U.S. is dead last in the industrialized world, or getting there rapidly, in average life spans, average disease-free life spans and infant mortality rates. It’s also tied for 54th, with the island of Fiji, in a World Health Organization study of fairness and assess to quality health care for all.

A study released in May 2002 by the Minnesota-based research firm Institute of Medicine documents the obvious. Approximately 18,000 Americans die each year because they lack the basic medical coverage necessary to get proper health care. Another study, this one by Tufts University in the mid-'90s, confirmed that the single most dangerous risk factor in America is poverty. Not genetics, not destructive habits (cigs, excessive drinking, drugs, etc), not dangerous jobs or recreational activities -- just simple grinding poverty and its inherent exclusion from the US medical system. Only in America is lack of private health insurance treated as a capital crime.


USA! USA! USA!


wp


On edit: Just had to add one more heart warming stat.

[Nikki Stone1]

157. Welcome to America. Insurance rates gp up for no apparent reason (except greed)

Sorry about that.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

160. 2 words - "medical tourism" - Google it, my friend

I sincerely believe this may be the only answer for people in your situation. Research it now, when your situations are not emergencies. More and more Americans will turn to this answer to the idiotic system we have in this country.

You will probably be able to fly, get medical care and have a semi- vacation for what you were paying for nothing.

[magellan]

164. Fascinating, thanks!

We could use a holiday....

[warren pease]

177. And check these rates...

A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the U.S., for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the U.S. costs $500 in India.

Full story here: http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/mar/tourism072505.html


See you in Calcutta,


wp

[Bozita]

162. Sounds like you Brits aren't tough enough to survive the American healthcare industry.

Sorry about the smart-ass reply.

You now understand more about healthcare in the US than your kin across the pond.

[magellan]

165. I'm American, my husband is British

I should have explained that in my OP because others have responded similarly on this thread. I didn't realize that by inadvertently giving the mistaken impression we're both immigrants whining about US healthcare, some would view my complaint as nothing but an object lesson -- for us.

My bad.

We're more than tough enough to survive. Others in this country go through far worse at the hands of our asinine health insurance system than a 30% rate hike. I just needed to rant and add my voice to the growing din for a single-payer or Medicare for all system.

[Bozita]

166. I'm furious.

Spent the evening watching 'Sicko' at the home of a techie.

I'm sharpening my pitchfork.

That time IS coming!

[magellan]

167. I hope you're right!

F/911 seemed to wake a lot of people up. Let's hope Sicko does too.

[Eurobabe]

175. I watched it too a few days ago, it is definitely going to stir up the pot

[SmokingJacket]

172. A new job. That's what we did.

My husband and I were making it on our freelance-writing incomes, but we were being eaten alive by health insurance costs. We had the highest possible deductible -- the $5K, I think, though it could have been $10K, needless to say we never reached it, or we'd know -- and were paying more and more every single quarter. It was ridiculous. Then one day when my son hit his head and later vomited, we found ourselves debating whether we should take him to the emergency room: risk of brain damage, vs. shelling out several thousand bucks for nothing. At that point, I knew we couldn't go on like that.

Fortunately he found a job with great insurance. But I'm angry we couldn't continue being self-employed -- it worked great for us in all ways but insurance.

[Bozita]

178. Canadian auto plants are cheaper to operate due to (are you ready?) ... healthcare costs

Medicare for everyone NOW!

Bless those Canucks.