Ethanol and tinfoil.

[kansasblue]

I was listening to Rush Limbaugh today (someone sitting in for him). They were talking about the down side of ethanol.

I'll admit I'm biased in favor of ethanol being from the corn producing area. Another market for corn, reduction in foreign oil imports. Lot's of upside.

On my drive to central Nebraska I passed two new large ethanol plants under construction. One in south central Nebraska south of York and the new (in production) plant at Ord, NE. The south central plant is one of MANY being built by Fagen.

http://www.fageninc.com/gallery/ethanol.htm

So who would stand to gain from making ethanol the demon? Even DU threads are regularly negative on ethanol. I'm going to put on my tinfoil hat here and say I think big oil is behind this. I'll keep an open mind as long as everyone else does too. Why do you think ethanol is bad? and where do your 'facts' come from?




Ethanol is 200-proof alcohol, usually made from corn, that is finding acceptance as an additive to oxygenated gasoline and being touted by advocates as a cleaner-burning alternative fuel that could reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

edit for spelling

[Tektonik]

1. Well to begin with, corn isn't even a good source for ethanol production

:popcorn: Can't wait to see this thread unravel

[kansasblue]

2. yes other substances make more ethanol but the left over products

from corn are reused as cattle feed.

[Rosemary2205]

3. My uncles have been making moon---er, um, ethanol for decades

anyone who's been there knows it will absolutely destroy a car engine even in concentrations as low as 5% (and 95% gasoline)

We are also pricing a lot of people out of buying food........

[kansasblue]

5. if too much of your paycheck is going for foreign oil based gas.......

and that money is leaving the country.......

then some competition from locally grown, locally processed alternate energy source seems like a good idea. Money going to farmers...not to Exxon. Doesn't sound too bad.

[AndyTiedye]

9. That's Too Bad Because They're Already Putting 10% Ethanol in all the Gas Here in CA

anyone who's been there knows it will absolutely destroy a car engine even in concentrations as low as 5% (and 95% gasoline)

All the gas they sell here in CA has 10% ethanol in it. I sure hope it isn't destroying our car engines.
They seem to be running OK on it so far, though mileage dropped about 10% when they switched over.

[Rosemary2205]

11. Virginia too.

My mechanic friends and relatives tell me the alcohol slowly eats away all the plastic and rubber engine parts and makes them wear out faster -- basically we are talking about 7 years from a car instead of 9 or 10 before you need a whole new engine (basically meaning a new car nowadays). there's also a chance a manufacturer will void the warrantee because the vehicle was not manufactured to run any level of ethanol (that remains to be seen and quite frankly I think any car company would be committing suicide if they did it)


We had a newish rented liftvan on vacation recently and got 25mpg until we had to buy gas in Virginia at 10% ethanol. My mileage dropped so much that I not only wasted the ethanol but an additional 4 gallons of gasoline that I would not have burned with 100% gas.

I know the corn farmers love this, but I see no benefit to the consumer at all.

[Random_Australian]

12. Well, hate to be a smart-alec guy, but only concentrations between 2 and 12% or so are harmful.

Because there is always some water dissolved in the ethanol - after all, glacial ethanol is hygroscopic. (As in, will get water from the air if you don't leave water in)

Below 2%, the amount of water is not a problem.

Between 2 and about 10%, the ethanol is dissolved in the fuel, but the water isn't. It forms a layer and ruins car engines.

At about 10%, there is enough ethanol to start redissolving the water.

By 12%, it's not a problem.

:)

Hope you learned something!

Yay chemistry!

I love chemistry.

[Rosemary2205]

13. So it's the water, not the alcohol??

I believe you but I'd like to read more. If you have any links I'd be grateful. If not I'll spend half the night poking around Google. :) Thanks.

[Random_Australian]

14. I'm afraid I was not using links - I have an exam on this stuff in about

6 or so days, and I was talking straight from the lecture notes I was revising. :)

So sorry, no linkie!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. So who would stand to gain from making ethanol the demon? The earth and people who live on it

turning food into fuel just so we can drive more is ludicrous. Especially when corn is one of the worst as far as energy outcome.

a good article that has lots of info...
http://www.cleanhouston.org/energy/features/ethanol2.htm

[kansasblue]

6. Thanks....they make some good points for ethanol....

'- the peak of oil production will soon result in a tremendous rise in its price. We have blindly depended on cheap and abundant oil to fuel our economy, with little thought of what to do when it is no longer cheap and abundant. Signs of petroleum’s peaking are evident now and as it becomes less and less affordable, we will have to look to other forms of energy to fulfill our energy demands.'


http://www.cleanhouston.org/energy/index.htm


ok.... I'll read some more. :-).

I did say I have an open mind and with that I go off and read.

thanks!

[frogcycle]

7. ethanol is good but not from corn

the energy spent planting, harvesting, and processing the corn to produce ethanol is almost as much as what is produced. it would not be economically viable without huge subsidies.

The knock on ethanol by the naysayers is pretty much valid when applied to corn. Here's the rub: Agribusiness just LOVES the subsidies for corn-ethanol, and the driving up of prices for feed corn and table corn. So agribusiness keeps lobbying for it, and that gives the naysayers a legitimate target for their derisive broadsides against anything progressive.

That said, several plant sources CAN produce ethanol with positive energy yield.
Notably, sugar cane, switchgrass, and sugar beets.

Switchgrass and sugarcane are referred to as cellulosic biofuels (not sure about beets) The high-cellulose biomass needs to be broken down with an enzyme process before fermentation to produce alcohol. Several test facilities are in production, and results are quite promising.

Sugarcane and switchgrass are perennials; when grown in their natural environment, they will choke out any competitor plants. So you plant once, harvest annually, don't need pesticides, don't need herbicides. Switchgrass is a native prairie grass, highly drought-tolerant. It will put roots down 6-8 feet, and just keep on producing pretty much forever. It could, and should, be planted on the 40 million acres now in the federal "land bank" - where farmers are paid not to grow anything. It takes about three years to mature, and it would take quite a while just to develop sufficient seed crop to cover those acres. If production plants gear up and become viable, then there are another 600 million acres in "pasture and forage" that could probably be put partially in switchgrass. That is without touching the existing corn/soy acreage.

This is a threat to agribusiness. There is just not as much money to be made selling fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, and it does not artificially prop up corn prices.

[Sanctified]

8. Several Issues I have with Corn Based Ethanol.

First most farmers who are raising corn for Ethanol will opt for GMO crops that require heavy amounts of fertilizer and pesticides because they will supply bumper crops, mot caring about the damage they are doing to the earth and water supplies. Second Ethanol does not burn cleaner than gasoline and cars who run on ethanol actually get less mpg than regular gasoline cars so they are actually worse for the environment. Finally I think we should be looking at soy based Biodiesel instead of corn based Ethanol for our fuel replacement, ethanol only delivers 25% more energy than is used to produce it while Biodiesel produces 93% more energy than is used to produce it.

[Captain Angry]

10. We need to consume less FUEL. Not just less oil.

Ethanol is a lovely idea. But it's crap.

It does not increase fuel efficiency, so a car getting 30mpg is still 30mpg. It just means somebody else gets the money, no reduction in consumption.


This is a problem because the world fuel consumption will continue to grow. If we continue to drive the same vehicles, it doesn't matter what fuel source is used, if it burns, it will become more and more expensive.

Until we make a dedicated effort to get off of fuel entirely, and move the standard consumer car to an electric or at least plug-in hybrid, we're not making a long term decision.

18-wheelers, aircraft and other such vehicles will need petroleum based fuels for a long time. The more of us normal consumers that move off of fuel, the lower the demand will become, which means the people that have to stay with liquid fuel will be able to afford it easier.

[elocs]

15. The lust for ethanol is so we can keep on doing what we are doing.

Driving as much and as far as we want. This nation needs to make better use of rail for both passengers and freight. There should not be semis be-bopping all over the country, but there should be rail hubs with the freight being delivered by trucks locally.

[Captain Angry]

17. There are parts of the country where the big rigs are the only way to go.

I don't begrudge them that. I would prefer far more rail based freight, but most Americans aren't patient enough to wait for FedEx Overnight, much less 5-10 days.

The amount of driving those guys have to do sucks. If people stopped using fuel in the commuter cars, the fuel prices would fall far enough through decreased demand that it would become a little easier on the truckers. The drivers are bearing the brunt of these increases, not the freight companies.

[elocs]

16. Concerning facts, here's a clue: try looking at all the facts

and not just the ones that support your own point of view. Rail against the oil companies for protecting their self-interest, but realize that agribusiness, corn farmers, ADM, and ethanol pushers have their own self interest that they are promoting also. It doesn't take a tinfoil hat to see that. On the surface ethanol may seem like a rosy picture, and maybe for a small country, but it has big problems in a country as large as the U.S. and with our large population which sucks up energy like there is no tomorrow. In the big picture, corn ethanol is bad news. Everybody here has Google and other search engines available to them to look up the easily found pros and cons about ethanol. It's not hard to do, but you need to be willing to look at both sides, which is hard to do for anything if you are making a buck from it.