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Wow! Major abuse by the airport police at MSP

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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:36 AM
Original message
Wow! Major abuse by the airport police at MSP
This guy could probably use some help from a good civil rights attorney

http://greencycles.blogspot.com/
greencycles
I was accosted, assaulted with battery, and tased at Minneapolis St Paul international airport, simply for leaving the airport by bicycle. I had broken NO laws.

Here are the salient facts of this case:
I was leaving MSP airport by bicycle after a flight from California. I was legally operating my bicycle completely in accord with MN statutes and MAC airport ordinances. I was following all posted signs. There were NO signs at that time prohibiting bicycles. I was rudely accosted by an officer in a passing squad car, came to a stop, and was immediately threatened with mace and taser if I didn't get off the bike and up on the curb. I did not understand the reason for this outrage.
I calmly yet firmly protested the threats, and said that I was happy to abide by all laws that applied, but asked what I had done wrong and why the process was so immediately belligerent. Officer Wingate said 'You can't ride here'.
I asked where that was posted. Officer Wingate made a vague gesture in the direction of the Lindbergh terminal and angrily said 'back there'. I asked for specifics of where it was and what the sign said, and tried to explain that I had been to the airport many times and had never seen such a sign. Officer Wingate became more angry at this questioning of his authority, and burst out 'I'm *telling* you you can't ride here'. I never raised my voice, used profanity or made threatening gestures yet I was threatened again: 'I'm going to mace you, I'm going to tase you!'.

I told Officer Wingate that he was being rude to me, and as I said that, I read his name clearly aloud off his shirt and asked to speak with his supervisor. At this, he took a step back and changed his tone for the better. He asked if I worked at the airport. I answered 'no' and explained that I had just come in on a NW flight from California. He asked where I was going. I said I was on my way to St Paul to see my family. He asked how I planned to get there. I explained my planned route out of the airport that completely avoids the highway, using the service roads, connecting to Post Road and then the bike trails in Fort Snelling State Park. Officer Wingate said, 'Well, I see you've done your homework. *Just this once* I'll let you ride out along here', referring to the one-way service road that parallels the main airport egress, but traveling against the marked flow of traffic, and that connects to Post Road, Fort Snelling, and so forth.

I replied 'OK, that's fine, but what do I do the next time I come to the airport, because I don't want to go through this again?'
The notion that I was even thinking of ever operating my bicycle again at the airport brought back Officer Wingate's anger in full force. He vehemently replied, 'NO, you're going to *WALK* your bike to Post Road'. I asked what had changed all of a sudden. The one way service road is rarely traveled, a walking cyclist is twice the width of a riding one and with more limited control and you would be on the road 10 times longer. I stated that I saw no problem with doing what he had just said, as there was no traffic at all on the road. Officer Wingate then blurted, 'NO, you're going to *walk your bike back to the terminal and take public transportation*'.
This last order was clearly not in the interests of my safety, but was delivered in a vindictive and punitive way. I would have become a pedestrian (illegal), double the width of a normal cyclist, walking back against 2 to 3 lanes of oncoming traffic on the main airport egress road with no sidewalks, blind walled curves allowing no margin of safe retreat from the road, and regular posts and pillars along the small curb that is there. I stated what was obvious: 'that's ridiculous, that would put me at risk'. Officer Wingate then ordered me to 'get on my knees'.

I replied that that was absurd, that there was no basis for that as I wasn't doing anything threatening to him. I stated again, 'You are being rude to me and I want to speak to your supervisor'. Officer Wingate then said, 'Look, you're wasting our time. We were on a call to the Humphrey Terminal for a runaway teenage girl, and we would have been there by now.' I completely agreed that it was a waste of time for everybody. I noted that I was not being cited for any violation, nor told any statute that I had violated. I explained that I would follow the first and most reasonable, safety-wise, of the conflicting orders given to me, and then said 'I'm going to wish you both a good evening, and hope the rest of it goes better than this has gone.' I then got on my bike and began to leave.

I was instantly and with absolutely no verbal warning whatsoever attacked from behind and thrown to the ground. I received wounds to chin and arm. The impact put a new casing crack on my helmet. My glasses were thrown off by the impact and bounced several feet away. The bicycle continued to roll forwards a few feet, coming to a stop in the center of the road. (A gold van would later have to stop, because the bike was crumpled in the middle of the one lane road.) Officer Wingate then came up behind me and jerked me up into a standing position. I then heard him yell an order to Officer Bryant- 'Shoot him!'. Officer Bryant then shot me with the taser. I fell uncontrolled to the pavement for the second time, experiencing the full force of a weapon that can only be considered barbaric. (There are many documented deaths by taser. For this reason police departments do not consider it a 'non' lethal weapon, but a 'less' lethal weapon. It was developed to be used in lieu of a gun, as a weapon of last resort when a person is seriously threatened. Needless to say, I did not give permission for this to be used on me as part of the exercise, nor was I asked in advance if I had any medical history that could have led to my death. Only after the fact, in the hospital, was I asked my medical history.)

As I lay still on the pavement, Officer Wingate walked over to my glasses and smashed them into the ground with his boot. I was handcuffed, body searched and baggage searched. Reinforcements were called in, a total of (4) squad cars and a paramedic unit.

Officer Wingate said, 'Well, you wanted to speak to my supervisor, here he is'. I then asked Sergeant Karsnia 'What in the world is going on here?' He also wanted to know from me what had happened but said 'first, I'd like to speak to my officer, and then I'll get back to you'. He had a private conversation with Officer Wingate, came back, asked what had happened but immediately interrupted me and said 'Look, I'll do the talking here because you tried to take a swing at my officer'. At this point the collusion was clear. I then had no reason to believe that the brutality was over. As I stood on Outbound Rd next to the squad car, handcuffed, I called out 'Help!' to all passing traffic, hoping to draw attention to the situation, and in hope of a witness. No cars would stop. When ironically asked to 'calm down' I explained to Sergeant Karsnia that I wanted a third party present, as I no longer had reason to trust the police. At no time did I physically resist arrest.

After being taken to the hospital, I was again in the squad car. At this point Officer Wingate was calm. I asked him if he *really* thought that I was going to take a swing at him. I think this caught him off-guard, and he replied, a bit hesitatingly and somewhat sheepishly, that in police work any gesture has to be interpreted as potentially aggressive. In demonstration he put his fist to his chest, and said 'you never know when someone could put their hand like this, and then suddenly strike out'.

My California driver's license passed with flying colors- I have no criminal record, and no recent moving violations. The Minnesota test also passed with no violations or adverse history of any kind.
I was put in Hennepin County jail, and on the entry form the box was checked that I should be detained WITHOUT bail, because I was 'likely to commit another crime'.
I was thus held without charges and without bail. The admission process was intentionally made to take over 8 hours, so I could legally be held through the long weekend to an arraignment on Monday. Everything was taken from me. I could only make collect calls to numbers I had remembered. It was impossible with this arrangement to even leave a message on a message machine.
Police photographs were made that night of a series of 'NO PED XING' signs and a lone 'AUTHORIZED VEHICLES ONLY' sign that is buried in the transit hub, and not even visible from the road. That is the photo 'evidence' against me.
24 hours later I was released on a negotiated $2000 bail, reduced from an intermediate $10,000. (note- Vikings player Travis Taylor in an incident earlier this year, was released in 45 minutes on a $50 bail.)

Sergeant Karsnia had by now reviewed the CCTV video evidence and made a margin note ordering the video evidence from 5 cameras burned to disc. My personal request for video evidence was never answered by Airport Police. There are over 800 CCTV cameras at MSP Airport. The system was substantially upgraded after 9-11. Police are now claiming through the prosecution that I didn't show up on any camera.

I was kept in limbo for one month, then finally charged with (6) counts, including a Gross Misdemeanor of Obstructing Legal Process 'with force or violence or threat thereof'. (see the CASE SUMMARY link for details on all the counts).

Four months later, new signs prohibiting bicycles are installed by police without the knowledge of the Metropolitan Airports Council.

I think the underlying circumstance of the incident is clear. I later learned that the threatening officer, Officer Wingate, had taken his oath of office less than 3 years previously. The squad car driver, Officer Bryant, had taken his oath of office less than 3 weeks before. To begin with, Officer Wingate probably doesn't like cyclists. He was also likely showing off to the younger recruit, using me as ready educational fodder, demonstrating how immediate threats of violence can quickly force the compliance of a suspicious person. He became angry when I legally questioned the legitimacy of it all. Is this what his education taught him? Is this courtesy, respect and professionalism? Hubris and unchecked authority are a volatile combination, and should have no place in a peace officer who has taken an oath to 'serve and protect'.

An altogether illegitimate police stop cannot trump our Constitutional Rights. If this is not the case, then any officer for any whim whatsoever could blurt out (4) warnings to anybody's grandmother that they 'will be tased', and then do it if they don't like being disagreed with. It would be hard to imagine a clearer definition of a police state.

At the very least MSP Airport Police are in violation of the U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights Amendments IV and VIII, Metropolitan Airport Council Ordinance 58, discrimination and profiling of a cyclist, flagrant violation of the MN police policy manual's stated force continuum policy, collusion and embroidery of police narratives to support a Complaint against an innocent person supported by spurious and irrelevant evidence, posting of new signs without due notification of the appropriate authorities and the likely destruction of key CCTV video evidence that would make the truth of what happened clear to all.

I remain committed to the peaceful and lawful resolution of these issues. For whatever reason I am truly glad to have no anger over the matter, but this is fully replaced by a heightened concern for everybody of what the precedent could be from the outcome of this case. On one level this is a personal case for me, and an important test of cycling civil rights, but at an even deeper and more profound level it is about the Constitutional Rights of all of us and whether we will allow them to be trod upon.

With thanks to the many voices of support,

Peace and best wishes to all,

Stephan Orsak

(more complete details may be read in the CASE SUMMARY. Court documents and evidence details are linked from the margin above.)
////////////////////////////

Posted by Stephan Orsak at 7:56 PM 89 comments
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Get yourself a civil rights attorney
That is outrageous. Sue the pants off them.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. seconded
contact the Minnesota Bar Association to see if they can recommend an attorney who specializes in "Section 1983" actions.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Cops like these give them all a bad name
I'm scared to death of them because I always fear they'll decide to do something like this to me-again, for no reason. Sue the ______s and get a HUGE settlement.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. The problem is
90% of cops are cops like these in my experience.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. you know what it is NOT ALL cops who are like this
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:31 PM by datasuspect
just about 95% of them.

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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. And you arrived at that bogus number by what scientific methods?
I've met some bad cops, but I've met a lot more decent ones.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hope to heck he sues and wins big time
Evil MF'ers.
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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Like our lead guitar player said when we got shut down at a gig
"Give a guy with a small dick a gun and a badge and this is what you get."

If the good cops in this country are serious about maintaining a good image, they would do VERY well to ACTIVELY weed brainless oafs like Wingate from their ranks. The fact that they have yet to do so in any visibly meaningful manner, IMHO, speaks volumes.

More candidates for public office need to make this a *Serious* campaign issue.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. No doubt n/t
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Spacemom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. k & R
I'm speechless. Where did my country go? :(
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sue then
Efuggingnough of these fascist cops.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. fuckerrods with 1/2 a brain cell with access to tasers and wannabe cops
make me sick.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. This why police need to have video cameras on their person at all times they are on duty.
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 12:31 PM by Kingshakabobo
When they strap on the gun and badge they should be recorded in everything they do.

Why not? The technology is there......AND the need is there. We are told WE need to be on video almost 24 hours a day no matter where we go or what we do - All for our own good. What do the police have to hide? Enough of the "he took a swing at me" bullshit that gets put in every arrest report when te cops need to pile on. We, as civilians, need to demand 100% accountability of our increasingly militarized police forces.

I think the first thing a rookie learns out of the academy is "testilying" and "who are they gonna believe"....

I'm from Chicago - home of the "What the fuck are you looking at" police force.
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes, but they altered (or "lost") the video from the airport security cameras
what's to stop them from doing it for a personal camera?
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I thought the article stated the police said there was NO video at all? n/t
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Never question the police IMO
The goal is get away from them in one piece. Questioning cops is bad news; just comply and stay safe.
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. ALWAYS question authority. They're wrong alot!
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I always question authority
But questioning some cop who may or may not be a good guy, but is definitely armed with weaponry and the full force of the law is dangerous and poor judgment. Although I do admire the idealism, it's just not practical. IMO.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. it's idiotic to fuck with the police
your rights end when you interact with them. they are like mobile regions of fascism.

you are not a US citizen while you are in your car, an airport, an interstate common carrier, or in a government building.

they can do whatever they want to you.

sure, you can seek redress, but they get the first shot.

to hell with them, i'd rather wiggle and squirm and swallow some shit than get put in the system.

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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. At some point you need to stand up for your rights or they'll just continue to fuck with you
I think this guy was justified and they "cops" need to be brought down a few pegs.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. When you stand up for your rights.....
You also stand up for everyone's rights that come after you.

It is easy to SAY that you believe in freedom, but we are defined by our actions. You can't call yourself a lover of freedom if you don't stand up for it in the face of those who want to take it away from you, no matter how powerful they are.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Being right and being smart aren't always the same thing.
I've been to MSP a lot (I live about 90 minutes away, and MSP is the only big airport in the region), and there's really no good bike access into or out of the airport. I've never seen anyone riding a bike there--so it's not surprising that he stood out a bit. Cops are trained to pay attention to whatever doesn't fit, so it was reasonable, in a way, for the cop to stop the guy and ask him what was up (not that most cops would see a guy on a bike as a threat--more like a curiosity in those surroundings). But if you go all legal on cops ("I know my rights! Blah blah blah"), they HATE it--what they want is immediate deference to their authority. Once you've got their attention, you fail to defer to them at your considerable peril. That's obvious, if unfortunate, but you'd think that everyone in this country with half a brain would be aware of it. Cops can't function if every mojo on a bike gets to give them shit and tell them how to do their jobs--at least that's what they think. If you "stand up to them," there's a good chance you'll get tased, and/or get your teeth kicked in, and then tossed into the can for "resisting arrest" while you were writhing in agony on the ground. This particular cop sounds like an idiot and a bully way above and beyond the normal run of things, and certainly ought not to have the auhtority and weaponry he has, but still--very bad idea to give a cop a hard time. Correct response: "Sorry officer--I didn't know. Can I take my bike and go home now?"
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
67. I view them sort of like sharks. The point is to get away intact, not out macho them.
Edited on Thu Jun-21-07 11:52 AM by kineta
Being overly polite, even when they are clearly being assholes, usually helps to diffuse the situation. I learned that in martial arts - diffusing a situation is *always* the better choice, even it you don't appear to 'dominate' the situation.

I had one guy look right at us and say "I pulled you over because you weren't wearing your seatbelts" - and we all were, which he could clearly see. We could have argued with him and it would have gotten ugly - for us. The guy probably didn't like the way we looked and seemed to be looking for a fight. We didn't give him one. We were polite, even in the face of his surreal assertions, and things worked out okay. We were traveling through a small town in Oregon, if it had been the town I live in I would have made a stink *after* the fact. When I was safely away from the guy.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. never question the cops AND NEVER assert your rights
that will get you in a bind right quick with the police.

if anything, begin complying before they even speak.

if on foot: face them and have your arms away from your pockets.

if in a car: place your hands on the dash and INFORM them of your movements, strike that, seek permission.

be calm, polite, say your "sirs" and "ma'ams" and let them know that you understand that they have ABSOLUTE power over you.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
58. I agree..I do not want to
interupt my day getting into their system which would only lead to more of my days intruded on.

Good Luck to the bicyclist, though..gotta love his guts!
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. When they came for the innocent bicyclists, I said nothing.
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:56 PM by OmelasExpat
It seemed so rational ... just take a little blame from the guilty when everyone knew I was innocent. Buy a little time and a little peace while others got punished for standing up for my rights. I learned it on the junior high school playground - appease the bullies and the whip might land on someone else. How little those idealists and rugged individualists understood - there aren't really any rights when the cops have the weapons and the code of blue, and we're just isolated individuals.

Because we authorized the use of indiscriminate fascism with our complicity, they came after us in the end, and there was no peace for anyone. And we weren't even left with an argument.

Just a little hint about the karma you're provoking, DemGa. Real patriots like Samuel Adams would have a few words with you.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. it's not karma, it's REALITY
what practical sense does it make to provoke sadists who have the ultimate power to take your life if they (IMPORTANT: if THEY, not you) deem you pose an immediate threat to their personal safety?

the 4th amendment really doesn't exist anymore.

assert your constitutional rights during a routine traffic stop and then come back here and talk about karma.

the onus is on the cops, not on the average citizen who isn't a criminal or who poses no real threat to a cop.

invoking samuel adams is absurd, real patriots would rail against the erosion of fundamental civil liberties.

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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Karma is reality. And *they're* the provocateurs, not innocent people like the OP.
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 03:16 PM by OmelasExpat
But I'll tell you (and eventually you'll believe me when you see it happening), the one thing that is going to turn friendly, good-natured, law-abiding people into the opposite is this kind of treatment becoming accepted and standard.

"assert your constitutional rights during a routine traffic stop and then come back here and talk about karma."

I have done that and it worked, because I was dealing with cops who understand what you apparently don't.

You aren't railing against the erosion of fundamental civil liberties, you're defending it and you've already accepted it. Which means you're either ignorant, one of these crooked cops, or a troll.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. karma is a philosophical/theological concept
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 03:24 PM by datasuspect
and resorting to name calling/imputing motives/assuming certain knowledge about anything concerning me invalidates anything further you have to say.

try to talk about IDEAS and not your fellow DUers around here. it's nonsensical to talk shit about people when you know nothing about them, in fact, it just makes a person look bad.

and welcome to DU!

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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I haven't assumed anything you haven't already freely expressed about yourself.
The fact that I support the principle of an innocent person questioning the illegitimate exercise of authority makes me look darn good (in fact, awesome) to the RIGHT people. The kind of people who don't see a fundamental difference between this cop, a Blackwater mercenary, and a dry-drunk frat boy in the Oval Office. They're all bullies and wannabe tyrants, nothing different.

And you've already stated your belief that the 4th amendment doesn't really exist. You think you're going to get a lot of support for that around here?

Please try thinking about the IDEAS I presented to you. They're important ones.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. i don't "play" with asparagus casters, it's like trying to corral pigeons
you end up with a bunch of shit.

have a good one!

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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I'm just pointing out that it's stupidity to challenge police
It can turn against you very quickly and nothing will be gained. Do you see that?

OmelasExpat, you should look at your judgment of me and consider your own karma.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. No, it's stupidity not the stand up for yourself when you're innocent. nt
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 03:29 PM by OmelasExpat

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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Mr. Orsak tried that
It got him verbally abused, tased, beaten and jailed.

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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Which is why we all need to stand up for ourselves when we are inocent
This cannot stand as a righteous act.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. I'm not advocating letting it stand
I hope he sues and winds up owning the airport.

I'm saying you don't fuck with someone who has a badge, a gun and an attitude. They can hurt you.

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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. He was brave to stand up for his rights
Too bad he's somewhat of a martyr now.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. I do stand up for myself when I'm innocent
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 06:17 PM by DemGa
Like now for example. I'm very protective of my rights and of my fellow citizens rights as well. The obvious subtext to my original statement is that the police have too much power.

I certainly will not lie down while someone "hints" at my karmic concerns which is nonsense, and implies I am not a "real patriot."

Too many assumptions on too little information. It leads to errors. EOM.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
16. We should all send this to Keith Olbermann. It looks like another
"Worst Person in the World" award is in order.
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. Welcome To Amerika
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. I moved from MN in November and BELIEVE me my two
"kids" 29 and 31 have both had awful experiences with police. But I telling you it will be a hard row to hoe, fighting them that is. Go for it and the best to you.....my experiences at the airport in 2002 made me a no flyer.....as much as I love MN, the north country, I am truly afraid of the police, guards,TSA, any of them.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
59. That's too bad!
I freaked out when a cop stopped me for going over the speed limit in our small town.

He was nice though cause he gave me a "no seat belt" ticket instead so it wouldn't go on my record for the ol' car insurance.

Got rid of my car and now I walk everywhere and just watch the policemen drive by. :)
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. Here's one short story.
My son is a manager of a privately owned restaurant...kinda high end. He's very responsible, well for most things, but forgot to update his auto tags. Late one night, after closing the restaurant, he was on his way home and at a stoplight waiting for the light to change. A squad car was behind him and the cop noticed the out of date plates. Pulled him over, HANDCUFFED him, and ran a drug sniffing dog through his vehicle. The cop did ask permission to do this but.........they were nasty. Took him to the police station et. al. He ended up paying a fine and re-instating his plates. That's just one of his stories....another landed him in jail over a weekend much like the OP's situation! It's a college town and he had a university decal across the back window. The cops do not like these students. Many stories about that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. That's horrible! The Police
Chief should turn this around or resign. They job is To Protect and Serve..not to harass and hate!
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think that these days, a lot of police are combat veterans of Iraq or
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:01 PM by truedelphi
Afghanistan, in many cases compliments of having been in the National Guard.

They are not used to being questioned - after two tours in Iraq when they could just throw an Iraqi family against a wall and run through that house busting down doors and what not - they just are not used to being questioned.

Post traumatic stress and the stress of everyday police duties are not a good mix.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. PTSD or no, they know the difference between being in Iraq and being in America.
These kind of cops just don't respect that difference enough.
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ryanus Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. sue them under this
TITLE 42, CHAPTER 21, SUBCHAPTER I, SECTION 1983

"Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. get a lawyer, and press charges, these cops are total bullies.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. this happens more often than not
good thing he is a higher profile citizen in this country, he might get some satisfaction in this matter.

at least he didn't end up in the hospital.

but the system takes people like him very seriously when situations like this arise.

he'll get a nice settlement out of this.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. he won't get a settlement -- previous case involving this officer
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:41 PM by pitohui
and he had best tread carefully, or the threat of being sued may be enough to give the police dept a strong incentive to prosecute him for some crine, in order to protect the officer from a civil suit

i already found another case where officer wingate was involved, IF this other case is true, wingate has no problem making his case a little more colorful -- end result, the victim was convicted of a "minor" assault, this was the case:

http://mothereyewitnessnwaattack.blogspot.com/2007/05/mother-eye-witness-to-nwa-racial.html
again, assuming the story is true
sounds to me like there is a good chance that wingate is believed in court and the person unwise enough to tangle w. him is going to end up with some criminal record, one can only hope minor, but certainly enough to put any hope of a civil suit in the victim's favor to rest

in this other case several officers were involved, not just wingate, and it sounds like they covered for ea. other --
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. well, the guy in the OP is white, so that MIGHT help him
plus i think he is a concert violinist. that gives him some social prestige.

if he has a good attorney, he can benefit.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. maybe but the other victim was a damn cripple w. a crippled arm
so i dunno if the juries even care in some areas, if an officer says it, seems like they believe any old horseshit sometimes

i don't know what to think honestly
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
50. Apparently the airport personnel is being trained by Homeland Security program developed in Israel.
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 07:43 PM by shance
Here is the case of Aaron James that you linked.

Unbelievably horrific what is being enacted at the Minneapolis Airport.

One can only wonder where else it is being implemented.


Excerpts:



HERE ARE THE DETAILS OF OUR TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE:

We boarded the plane in Minneapolis, on January 18th, at approximately 6:50 P.M. We had seats B & C in row 8. Seat A (window seat) appeared not to be taken, so we were hoping to be able to spread out a bit, since Aaron is a bodybuilder, and has very broad shoulders.

Aaron and I were both feeling very disheartened and dejected by the information we had received from Dr. O’Driscoll on the previous day, and we discussed this quietly as we boarded. The fact that we appeared unhappy and upset was immediately noted by the flight attendants, as we later discovered, when this was stated, in court.

We have since learned that all Minneapolis Airport personnel and all Northwest Airlines personnel had been required to attend a Homeland Security Training Program, originally developed in Israel. This program encourages passenger profiling, to the point of paranoia. Among other things, the program teaches that “A person who has explosives strapped to their body will behave differently, appearing distressed and unhappy.”


AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 3

Aaron left his jacket and carry on bag in the seats, and went down the isle to the washroom.

While Aaron was gone, Sherri Caudell, a flight attendant, strode up to our row. (This same flight attendant later stated, on the stand, ‘WE are trained to KILL, before WE are KILLED!’) She began to speak to me very loudly and in a confrontational manner: “Is there a problem here?” I did not understand what she was talking about. She repeated herself in the same loud, rude and abrasive manner as before: “Is there a problem here?!” I asked her what she meant. She demanded “Is this your bag, or does it belong to someone else?” Surprised, I explained that it was my son’s bag, and that he had gone to the washroom. I explained that we weren’t sure if seat A was taken or not, so we had to wait and see, before we settled in properly. The flight attendant then began handing out customs forms to passengers. I specifically requested an extra form for my son, whose bag was resting in seat C, as I then reminded her. She gave me two extra forms – more than enough for both of us.

This flight attendant then walked down the isle towards the back of the aircraft.

Shortly after that, Aaron came out of the washroom and walked back down the isle towards his seat, continuing to feel very dejected about his right arm.

As Aaron passed by this same flight attendant, she said “hello”, or something similar. Aaron was feeling despondent, and was lost in his own inner thoughts, so he continued on his way down the isle without acknowledging her, and hardly aware of her.
The flight attendant then hastened to follow him down the isle of the aircraft, calling out after him, loudly, “Excuse me!” “Excuse me!” “Is there a problem here?!” “Can I help you?!” She was alarmingly loud, and her tone was very confrontational, drawing the attention of all the passengers on both sides of the isle. Everyone was staring, and Aaron was shocked and horrified by her public harassment, and the spectacle she was creating, so he stopped. He told her quietly that nothing was wrong, and there was no problem. She responded loudly and accusingly, “You know you walked right by me!!”
AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 4

(*** A pattern of deliberate profiling is obvious here. Two days earlier, when we had flown from Winnipeg to Minneapolis to Rochester, MN, to attend the Mayo Clinic, we were also profiled. Our bags were missing when we arrived in Rochester. They were delivered to our hotel approximately 3 hours later. They had been seized by security, at customs. The locks had been cut, the bags had been rummaged through, and notes were attached stating “This luggage has been seized and searched for security purposes”. There had been no need for this action. We had deliberately gone through customs at the Winnipeg airport several hours early, so that customs officials would be able to have us unlock the bags for the purpose of searching them, should they wish to do so. Further, since we carried the Mayo Clinic surgeon’s letter with us, officials were well aware that the purpose of our visit to Minnesota was to obtain medical care. We did make a complaint about the seizure of our bags, at the time, given the circumstances. We feel that we may have been targeted even further, as a result of this complaint.***)

When Sherri Caudell accused Aaron of having walked right past her, Aaron assured her that there was no problem, and continued back down the isle to our seats. The flight attendant then followed him down the isle, and started in again, by trying to push customs forms on Aaron in a very antagonistic manner, although she knew that just minutes ago she had given me more than enough forms for both of us. I hastened to remind her of this. (I believe that she had not forgotten, but was deliberately using the subject of customs forms as a ruse to allow her to continue harassing and needling Aaron at this point.) Her manner did not improve at all when I “reminded” her that she had already given customs forms to me for Aaron. She simply stated, again very loudly, that regardless, it was her responsibility to speak to all the passengers about getting the customs forms. “I’m just doing my job you know! I have to hand out these customs forms to all passengers!”

Aaron and I spoke after she left. Aaron described how loud and rude she had been minutes earlier, when he had been returning to his seat. We both agreed that she had been very rude, abrasive, and confrontational, without cause.


AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 5

To our amazement, Sherri Caudell then came back and began to verbally accost us even further! Having been eyeing us all the while, she quickly returned to where we were sitting, and demanded sharply, “Excuse me! Are you two talking about me?!”

This now constituted the fourth time, collectively, that Sherri Caudell had verbally accosted us since we had boarded the plane! Aaron softly replied “That would be quite enough of your behavior, thank you”, in a hushed tone. (We had both been speaking very quietly in response to her outbursts, appalled at the negative display she had been creating. She responded by saying “Well! I’m going to talk to the captain; I don’t think you should be on this flight!”, and stormed off.

We were aghast. It became clear to us then, that this had quickly developed into the epitome of profiling and related persecution.

Aaron then got up and quietly walked the short distance to where the loud and confrontational attendant was standing, next to the senior flight attendant, and asked that she not speak to him any further. He spoke extremely quietly. I barely heard him speak. As he walked back to our seats, he also commented “please save your racism for someone else.” This was done to be sure that others on the plane were made aware that we felt that we were being treated badly.

The senior flight attendant, Beverly Banks, then came over and spoke very quietly to us, crouched down and resting on her heels so our conversation would be quiet and private. She asked Aaron why he had said what he did. (That we had been verbally accosted before an audience of numerous other passengers on four separate occasions by that point, she seemed to be unaware.)

We both explained that the flight attendant in question had been very rude, to both of us, and that was why Aaron had made the request. Neither one of us, at any point in time, became “irate” or began yelling (as was later claimed).

Beverly Banks later testified on the stand that at no time was Aaron yelling while on the plane.

AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 6

The senior flight attendant left. She spoke with both the flight attendant in question, and the pilot. We heard the attendant in question exclaim loudly, “I didn’t do ANYTHING!!!” We also heard her protesting, over the open P/A system, “These guys are lunatics!” Given her behavior to this point, this was particularly disturbing!

The senior flight attendant then returned to speak to Aaron again. This conversation also took place in somewhat hushed tones, with the senior attendant resting on her heels, so as to be at our level and keep the conversation quiet.


Aaron assured her, when she inquired, that all he was asking was for that particular attendant not to speak to him any further, and other than that, everything was fine. He repeated this assurance. He did state that he planned to file a formal complaint once he returned to Canada.


The senior attendant then said “I’m still not sure if it’s a good idea for you to be on this flight.” She then walked away. I had the expectation that she would come back again, to clarify the situation, however she did not.

Aaron and I soon noticed a vehicle with a flashing red light approaching the plane. We then discussed the fact that, if required, we would get off the plane, and take a later flight home.

Five Airport Police officers suddenly boarded the plane, at the front entrance, and came down the isle. The officer in the lead (who we later learned was sergeant Milton) said to Aaron, “Sir, we’d like you to get up out of your seat and stand in the isle please.” Aaron got out of his seat and stood in the isle, immediately upon being requested to do so, and stood calmly in place. Milton then said “Now we’d like you to pick up your things and come with us.”

In an attempt to clarify what exactly was taking place, Aaron asked several questions, calmly, and in conversational tones.

Aaron asked “Am I under arrest?” Milton told him, emphatically, “NO sir! You are NOT under arrest!”
AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 7

Aaron then asked “Am I being charged with anything?” He was again told, emphatically, “NO sir! There are NO CHARGES against you. We’d just like you to leave the plane with us.”

Given these reassurances, Aaron then asked “Then may I ask on whose authority I’m being asked to leave the plane?” He was still trying to make sense of the situation. He spoke calmly and in a non-threatening manner.

Officer Milton, with whom he had been having this conversation, and who had JUST split-seconds before assured him that he was in no danger, suddenly became angry and lost his temper. With an angry expression on his face, he announced to the officers behind him, abruptly and without warning, “Cuff ‘im!!”

When Milton abruptly announced “Cuff ‘im!”, he then jumped forward and began grabbing Aaron’s damaged right arm. Aaron was shocked and horrified! He had just been given assurances! He was terrified that his fragile right arm would receive additional, irreparable damage. He tried to protect it by pulling it back, to avoid having it grabbed and wrenched on.

Milton did not give Aaron an opportunity to be handcuffed voluntarily, which would not have put his arm at risk. He just got right in Aaron’s face, and started grabbing at him.

Things went from ‘0’ to ‘100’ miles an hour, in seconds, with the unwarranted assault that followed! I was close enough to reach out and touch the officer, but I didn’t dare interfere. Aaron was shocked and speechless, and desperately attempting to protect his arm. He placed his left hand on the officer’s chest and stepped backwards, to try to put some distance between Milton and his arm.

Later, when Aaron was in hospital being treated for his injuries, we learned from Sergeant Wingate, that as they were pressing forward towards Aaron, two of the officers farthest from Aaron (nearest the entrance of the plane) tripped each other up and fell, in the confines of the isle of the plane. This was when officer Hoerdt was injured! He received a cut to his forehead, at the hairline, and a small chip to one of his teeth.
AARON JAMES PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 8

Hoerdt was not anywhere close to Aaron when this occurred! He definitely was not head-butted, as the officers soon decided to claim. Wingate downplayed the incident as he described it to us, saying all that had happened at the time was that he (Wingate) had sprained his finger.

It is VERY IMPORTANT to know that, the officer who lost his temper and assaulted Aaron was approximately 40 years old. He was definitely very much older than Aaron (Aaron was 29 at the time).

Officer Hoerdt, who injured himself when he was tripped up along with Wingate, and who Aaron was subsequently charged with head-butting, was only 27 years old at the time of the incident. This fact was established from reviewing Hoerdt’s own medical file, which was among court documents obtained by our U.S. lawyer. Officer Hoerdt was DEFINITELY NOT the same man who stood in front of Aaron, and spoke with Aaron, and who assaulted Aaron on the airplane.

FURTHERMORE, Officer Hoerdt admitted, on the stand, to being over 6 feet tall (taller than that even, in his police boots)! Aaron is only 5 feet & 9 inches tall. It would have been physically impossible for Aaron to have head-butted a person that much taller than himself at that person’s hairline. He would have had to be ‘flying’ to do so!

ALSO, it needs to be pointed out here that, if Aaron had actually had the audacity to do such an incredible thing, they would have IMMEDIATELY SHOT HIM DEAD, on the spot!!!


When Milton found himself unable to seize hold of Aaron’s right arm, he then yelled out for, and was passed a taser. At this point, Aaron realized that his life was in danger! He was physically strong enough to prevent the officers from reaching him with their tasers, but he realized that if he did this, then they would most certainly shoot him, and, they would probably kill him! Aaron steeled himself, and allowed the taser to burn his body! In spite of the intense pain (“like holding your hand on a red-hot element!) he resisted the urge to push the taser away. A second officer also began to take part in the tasering! Aaron deliberately fell over backwards in the isle of the plane.
AARON PROFILED, ASSAULTED – PAGE 9

He hoped to appear overcome by the tasering, so the officers would stop applying the tasers.

Milton applied the taser non-stop to Aaron’s body, continuing to apply the taser as Aaron fell, and then afterwards, as he lay in the isle.

In falling, Aaron struck the left side of his face against the arm rest of one of the outside seats, receiving a deep, long gash in the lower part of his left eyebrow, and further down the left side of his face.

Court documents stated that there was considerable blood on the armrest as a result of Aaron’s injury. He also received ugly burns in multiple places on his body, from the tasers.

Aaron bled profusely from the cut beside his eye. The gash required 12 stitches to close. He also required a tetanus shot.

Incredibly, Aaron’s injury was later used against him, as an injury he could have sustained while head-butting officer Hoerdt! So, what was being proposed was that Aaron head-butted this officer, who is at least 4 inches taller than Aaron is to start with, at the hairline, at the top of the officer’s forehead, with the SIDE of his (Aaron’s) face! Absolutely ludicrous! Not only does that add many inches to the distance Aaron would have had to leap in order to accomplish this, but, it is suggested that he did this with his head turned! The logistics of all this is beyond imagination. Further, if a person did try such a thing, with any force at all, he would run the risk of breaking his own neck!

Milton appeared frenzied, and ‘high’ on adrenaline, and out of control! He tasered Aaron for a prolonged period of approximately 10 seconds, over his left chest (heart!) after Aaron fell to the floor. Through gritted teeth, Aaron asked him to stop! And finally he did stop! Once he stopped using the taser, he told Aaron to get up and allow himself to be handcuffed, which Aaron did. At no point before, during, or after the police officers’ assault on Aaron, was Aaron loud or irate, or in any way at all threatening or aggressive towards the officers.

More at:

http://mothereyewitnessnwaattack.blogspot.com/2007/05/mother-eye-witness-to-nwa-racial.html
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Tigs Best Friend Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hopefully a helpful note:
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:35 PM by Tigs Best Friend
Most buses in Minneapolis have bike racks on the front so anyone who rides the bus out of the airport can put their bike on the rack in front of the bus and grab it when getting off at their destination. But it's a fairly new service, so you might want to give the driver a heads up about grabbing the bike as you get off the bus.

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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
57. Welcome to DU! Congrats on your first post! EVer buddy! Meet MY best Friend!


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. Jeebus! This country has seriously fallen down the rabbit hole.
I know crap like this has happened ever since there were law enforcement officers, but it seems I am reading more and more of these types of stories.

I hope this man gets some true justice in this situation. And I agree with a poster upthread, who said that the GOOD cops (and there are a lot them out there) need to take this issue up, and work to rid police forces of the bad ones.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. may be a history of other cops on this force covering/working w. wingate
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 02:46 PM by pitohui
i have posted a link to another case, which if true, suggests that a number of airport police, not just wingate, cover for ea. other

the other case did involve wingate, result, while the victim was found NOT guilty of the serious charges, he was convicted of a lesser charge and now has a criminal record, see my link upthread

best thing to do w. cops is to step carefully, if you have a question about their demands, better to comply and come back later through an attorney, rather trying to engage in a debate w. a cop on the spot

none of this would have happened if the man had simply apologized and walked the bike once officer wingate bitched him out for riding the bike

true, it is not right that we have to "humor" cops and walk on eggshells like they're emotionally little children, but better a live dog than a dead lion
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. You definitely have a point, even though I, too, think it's not right that
we have to "humor" the cops who act this way.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. Once, at a flea market......
A rent a cop stopped my son from riding his bike in the flea market. My son walked his bike to the gate which surrounded the flea market and hopped on it, while still right inside the gated area, to ride it out. The rent a cop stopped him and took him and his bike to the guard shack and told him he was going to call the police. My son, only 11 years old at the time, told him to PLEASE do so. The rent a cop let him go, but we sued the flea market for false arrest and won.

ALWAYS stand up for your rights, I say. Keep a tape recorder around, just in case. They can hit you and tase you, but at the end of the day, you can screw with them more than they screw with you. It's THEIR employment that's at stake.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. arguing with the police during a traffic stop? big mistake right there
When stopped by the police, your goal is to expedite the process, not to clarify it, and especially not to tell the cop how wrong he is. Make it as easy as possible for the cop to do what he wants to do and get back on the road to wherever, minimizing confrontation.

Here is the alternative scenario, applying this axiom.
Officer Wingate: "You can't ride here."
Bicyclist Orsak: "Thanks for the information, officer, I was unaware that bicycling was prohibited here. I will walk my bicycle away from the airport, until it is safe to ride again."
OW: "If I see you riding on airport property, you're getting cited. Have a safe day." (drives away, cursing damn fool hippy bicyclists)
BO: "You too, sir." (walks bicycle until police cruiser is no longer in sight, then gets on and rides away into the sunset. later he blogs about stupid airport regulations and their arrogant enforcers)

On the downside, such cooperation can be seen as enabling repressive, authoritarian behavior by the police.

On the upside, no one gets beaten, no one gets tased, no bail is required, and both parties get where they were going originally with little delay.

Unless one is planning for it in advance, making a civil rights case out of such things through non-cooperation is delaying other activities in one of the most dangerous ways possible. Taking past as prelude, events are much more likely to wind up in a legal dead-end with no backup (as has now happened to Stephan Orsak) than for the victimized rider to become the Rosa Parks of airport bicyclists.

Yes, police often look out for each other first and lie as needed to cover their butts, this is to be expected. Yes, police will sometimes even destroy or obstruct the obtainment of relevant evidence to do so, this is also expected. It is a rare day indeed when documented civil rights violations by police can result in the overturning of indictments such as those against Mr. Orsak, let alone root-out corruption and croneyism within a police department.

Play the odds.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I got stopped once for "going to fast" in a construction zone. I was
only going 15 mph, but got stopped. The cop told me the speed limit through that area was 10 mph. I told him I was not aware of that, because I had seen no sign. He said, "Well, now you know," then sent me on my way. I wasn't mad at the cop; I was a bit annoyed at the construction crew for not 1) having a flagger, and 2) not posting a 10 mph speed limit sign. The cop was polite, as was I, and I didn't get a ticket, but still, a bit more information BEFORE getting into a situation of being stopped would have been nice.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. just like in the OP, the regs about bicycle traffic weren't posted clearly
Basically, most cops are going to give minor traffic offenders a break the first time through, as long as the person they pull over doesn't get confrontational. A lot of stuff that should be clearly visible on signs isn't up like it should be, and heck, even if it is, there's still a chance you didn't see it for some reason. They understand such things.

But what they won't tolerate is disrespect of their positions of authority. If you'd started arguing with the cop, you can bet you would have gotten a ticket, at the very least.

I have NEVER heard of a person who argued with the cops under such circumstances and came away with fewer problems than when they got pulled over in the first place. It just doesn't happen.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. I was stopped at MSP two weeks ago for
speeding, illegal lane change, and it would turn out, an expired insurance card. I was in a hurry and it annoyed the crap out of me but I tried to remain calm, though stressed, used my yessirs and nosirs and drove away 5 minutes later with a citation for no insurance which I cleared up by mailing to the court the card that should have been in my vehicle. He could've really bankrupted me and would've been in the right - I was speeding and it's possible I didn't signal my lane change but he was decent. Not all cops suck; I certainly didn't get Wingate in the luck of the draw!
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
35. Um.... welcome to the Twin Cities?
Color me embarassed...
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
65. No Kidding..
Hi Krispos!
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. Thuggish cops assaulting people with impunity - a sure sign of fascism
n/t
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
53. Don't let the apologists fool you
A cop who is NOT like this is the exception.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
62. Do not attempt a dialogue with the cop who pulled you over, unless
you're a blonde female - in which case, traffic laws are sometimes applicable.
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