Robert Kennedy Jr. on autism and mercury: Attack on Mothers

[pnwmom]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/attack-on-mothers_b_52894.html

The poisonous public attacks on Katie Wright this week--for revealing that her autistic son Christian (grandson of NBC Chair Bob Wright), has recovered significant function after chelation treatments to remove mercury -- surprised many observers unfamiliar with the acrimonious debate over the mercury-based vaccine preservative Thimerosal. But the patronizing attacks on the mothers of autistic children who have organized to oppose this brain-killing poison is one of the most persistent tactics employed by those defending Thimerosal against the barrage of scientific evidence linking it to the epidemic of pediatric neurological disorders, including autism. Mothers of autistics are routinely dismissed as irrational, hysterical, or as a newspaper editor told me last week, "desperate to find the reason for their children's illnesses," and therefore, overwrought and disconnected.


But my experience with these women is inconsistent with those patronizing assessments. Over the past two years I've met or communicated with several hundred of these women. Instead of a desperate mob of irrational hysterics, I've found the anti-Thimerosal activists for the most part to be calm, grounded and extraordinarily patient. As a group, they are highly educated. Many of them are doctors, nurses, schoolteachers, pharmacists, psychologists, Ph.D.s and other professionals. Many of them approached the link skeptically and only through dispassionate and diligent investigation became convinced that Thimerosal-laced vaccines destroyed their children's brains. As a group they have sat through hundreds of meetings and scientific conferences, and studied research papers and medical tests. They have networked with each other at meetings and on the Web. Along the way they have stoically endured the abuse routinely heaped upon them by the vaccine industry and public health authorities and casual dismissal by reporters and editors too lazy to do their jobs.

SNIP

After hearing that story a couple dozen times, a rational person might do some more investigation. That's when one encounters the overwhelming science -- hundreds of research studies from dozens of countries showing the undeniable connection between mercury and Thimerosal and a wide range of neurological illnesses. In response to the overwhelming science, CDC and the pharmaceutical industry ginned up four European studies designed to disguise the link between autism and Thimerosal. Their purpose was to provide plausible deniability for the consequences of their awful decision to allow brain-killing mercury to be injected into our youngest children. Those deliberately deceptive and fatally flawed studies were authored by vaccine industry consultants and paid for by Thimerosal producers and published largely in compromised journals that neglected to disclose the myriad conflicts of their authors in violation of standard peer-review ethics. As I've shown elsewhere , these studies were borderline fraud, using statistical deceptions to mislead the public and regulatory community.

SNIP

[Warpy]

1. Oh, give it a rest, Bob

and read the peer reviewed studies. This one has been done to death by the medical community and no link has ever been found. In addition, thimerosal has been removed from vaccines and autism is not going away. Plus, they've found genetic abnormalities in autistics and also found anomalies in cord structure and blood at birth in kids who later are diagnosed as autistic.

The picture that is building is that of a congenital disease, not an acquired one.

None of this will convince hysterics and true believers. I guess I expected more of an educated Kennedy.

[back2basics909]

2. He looks like a fool...

.. he should be reading the transcripts of the trial case. They are exposing the whole vaccine myth as a money making scheme, that paid 5 doctors and a single lab millions to be "expert" witnesses.

Nearly all of these doctors have lied about their experiance, qualifications and tenures at Universities.

Children in England died because of their quackery. They need to be sued and Kennedy needs to shut the hell up or do some actual research. Kids have died due to chelation, and more wqill die if Kennedy continues to give it credability.

ftp://autism.uscfc.uscourts.gov/autism/index.html

[mzmolly]

76. A fool, my ass.

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

Read it in full, HE'S done the actual research, and he quotes "research" in his 66 page report.

[pnwmom]

4. Why isn't it possible that a genetic abnormality makes certain children

more susceptible to damage from mercury or other environmental factors?

Why do you view the two possibilities as mutually exclusive?

[mod mom]

5. I agree.

My husband and children have had several episodes with skin infections turned bad (my husband has been hospitalized twice including one time in which they were not sure if he would survive-Strep A necrotizing fascitis/myoitis) both of my children have been treated several times for these infection before the age of 10. 3 Different infectious Disease specialist have told us there is no genetic predisposition.

I come from a family of seven kids. No occurances.

Is it so ridiculous to think that maybe it isn't something not yet discovered?

[pnwmom]

13. My daughter, my niece, and I

are all allergic to the same antibiotic. My daughter and I get the same rare reaction. But it isn't genetic, supposedly.

[back2basics909]

6. Most mothers...

.. have higher levels of Mercury in their bodies than is in a full set of vaccines, before birth.

A recent study took samples of umbilical chords and tested for a number of pesticides, chemicals and heavy metals. This Mercury is Methyl Mercury, not Ethyl, it's more dangerous.

So for sure children could have a immune problem that makes them more susceptible to Mercury, but it would be the environmental exposure that would be more dangerous. And it's not just from eating fish.

The problem is that this hysteria about vaccines is killing children, and worse could enable a mutation in to a form that is untreatable. The more hosts, the more likely a mutation is.

So if you believe Mercury is involved channel your energy in to cleaning up the environment, not vaccines.

[pnwmom]

14. Again, why act as if the two options are mutually exclusive?

The govt. was right to eliminate mercury from most vaccines (it's still in the flu vaccines) AND we should be eliminating or reducing mercury emissions as much as possible.

Since the load in the body is cumulative, we should lighten it as much as possible. Mercury in the vaccines was only put there to save a little money on multiple dose vials.

[Warpy]

8. Read the rest of the post

Thimerosal gone. Autism still here.

Conclusion?

[pnwmom]

15. That could be the effect of increasing diagnosis of cases on the spectrum.

Why are there fewer cases of autism among unvaccinated populations like the Amish?

[LeftishBrit]

18. A couple of reasons occur to me

(1) The Amish (so far as I know) tend to 'keep to themselves' and therefore may be somewhat interbred, which could affect liability to particular genetically-linked disorders.

(2) The Amish lead 'simple' lives and may avoid various pollutants, chemicals, fast food, etc. They may also avoid certain infections, due to travelling less than most people.


It would be well worth while to do a comparative study of the Amish and others, to look for possible explanations for the differences; but it would be best to look at lots of possible explanations, and not to start with the assumption that it *must* be vaccines.

[mzmolly]

77. I agree.

I don't think anyone would have an issue with considering "lifestyle" in general.

[KamaAina]

21. Excellent point. Many researchers are exploring a combination of the two

known as the "double-hit" hypothesis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/18/us/18autism.html?ex=1339819200&en=9e51ad7f1fcc2a06&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss (link should work w/o registration)

But a list of current research grants on the Autism Speaks Web site suggests that the Wrights, while walking a fine line, are leaning toward genetic theories.

From 2005 to 2007, the charity sponsored $11.5 million in grants for genetic research (compared with $5.9 million by all its partners between 1997 and 2004). It sponsored $4.4 million in environmental research (down from $6 million granted by the partners in the previous seven years). And many of the environmental studies explore what is known as the double-hit hypothesis: That the genes for autism may be activated in some children by exposure to mercury or other neuro-toxins.

The rest of the article is well worth reading but does miss one key point: Katie Wright is a board member of a different organization, the National Autism Association, which seems to lean more toward environmental causes including thimerosal.

Point to ponder: If thimerosal were the only cause of autism, wouldn't autism be fairly uniformly distributed geographically (within the U.S.), as is vaccination? Why would there be clusters of autism, such as one traced back to a sunglasses plant in Massachusetts, and others believed to exist in places from Brick Twp., NJ to Silicon Valley?

[pnwmom]

26. I've never thought that thimerosal was the only cause, or the only trigger,

of autism.

I don't know why so many people can't seem to grasp the idea that a combination of factors may lead to autism . . . and that various toxins can affect different people differently.

[conscious evolution]

36. I can believe that.

A friends wife is a nurse in a clinic that treats autism.She says there are many different triggers.Some genetic and some from pre and post natal exposures to various substances.

[KamaAina]

38. The "point to ponder" was meant for the group as a whole

not specifically for you; too lazy to make a separate post. Shame on me. ;spank:

[glitch]

35. Exactly.

I don't think RFKjr has ever said Thimerosal was the only trigger though. He talks about combined effects and cumulative loads along with genetic predispositions.

In other words, tipping points in complex systems.

Taking one piece of a complex system and propping it up as a straw man to quickly and easily bat down is a pretty common technique in reductive science, one especially favored in industry.

It's good to see the double-hit hypothesis get more attention. Double-hits, triple-hits, pretty soon we'll be looking at whole systems.

[Johonny]

12. I agree

The peer reviewed studies simply aren't showing any red flags here.

[WinkyDink]

39. Maybe so. But I never knew of a child with autism when I was a kid, nor as a college student (Ed.

major), nor as an adult, until the last 15 years or so.

[Canuckistanian]

43. Bravo!

Good points.

As the father of an autistic child, I've watched these battles FOR YEARS. And I'm afraid the Thimerosal issue is dead. Especially to those who are paying attention.

I think that the controversy is being fueled by parents of newly diagnosed kids looking for a quick fix.

And yes, Kennedy's language is disconcerting, especially as this issue has been studied to death by reputable researchers.

There's no cover-up here. If there was, we'd be hearing that from the experts, loud and clear.

[mzmolly]

72. The issue has been studied by money interests who dismiss a link. Many impartial scientists do not.

You all are buying the corporate "talking points" hook - line and sinker.

From the article.

As a group, they are highly educated. Many of them are doctors, nurses, schoolteachers, pharmacists, psychologists, Ph.D.s and other professionals. Many of them approached the link skeptically and only through dispassionate and diligent investigation became convinced that Thimerosal-laced vaccines destroyed their children's brains. As a group they have sat through hundreds of meetings and scientific conferences, and studied research papers and medical tests. They have networked with each other at meetings and on the Web. Along the way they have stoically endured the abuse routinely heaped upon them by the vaccine industry and public health authorities and casual dismissal by reporters and editors too lazy to do their jobs.

Read the article, it's a good one.

[mzmolly]

71. Thimerosal has not been removed from vaccines.

Perhaps you should comment when you have an understanding of the actual facts? However, even IF that were the case, that does not mean we don't have an obligation to the families and children who "suffer" with autism as a consequence to mercury in vaccines.

"The picture that is building is that of a congenital disease, not an acquired one."

Many conditions require a genetic vulnerability however we should not dismiss environmental factors. The scientists who have noted a probable link (IN PEER REVIEWED journals) believe there is a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Again genetic AND environmental factors. Read that a few times as those who share your position conveniently forget that time and time again.

From the article: After hearing that story a couple dozen times, a rational person might do some more investigation. That's when one encounters the overwhelming science -- hundreds of research studies from dozens of countries showing the undeniable connection between mercury and Thimerosal and a wide range of neurological illnesses. In response to the overwhelming science, CDC and the pharmaceutical industry ginned up four European studies designed to disguise the link between autism and Thimerosal. Their purpose was to provide plausible deniability for the consequences of their awful decision to allow brain-killing mercury to be injected into our youngest children. Those deliberately deceptive and fatally flawed studies were authored by vaccine industry consultants and paid for by Thimerosal producers and published largely in compromised journals that neglected to disclose the myriad conflicts of their authors in violation of standard peer-review ethics. As I've shown elsewhere , these studies were borderline fraud, using statistical deceptions to mislead the public and regulatory community.

The CDC and IOM base their defense of Thimerosal on these flimsy studies, their own formidable reputations, and their faith that journalists won't take the time to critically read the science. The bureaucrats are simultaneously using their influence, energies and clout to derail, defund and suppress any scientific study that may verify the link between Thimerosal and brain disorders. (These would include epidemiological studies comparing the records of vaccinated children with those of unvaccinated populations like the Amish or home-schooled kids who appear to enjoy dramatically reduced levels of autism and other neurological disorders.) The federal agencies have refused to release the massive public health information accumulated in their Vaccine Safety Database (VSD) apparently to keep independent scientists from reviewing evidence that could prove the link. They are also muzzling or blackballing scientists who want to conduct such studies.

Ironically, it is the same voices that once blamed autism on "bad parenting," and "uninvolved" moms that are now faulting these mothers for being too involved.

[Lee_n_Tenn]

118. Just wondering why no other society, that doesn't use vaccines ..

has not had a problem with autism. You can take any isolated tribe or race and they never have the levels of autism we experience.. not even close. Why is that? Take any group of people from anywhere in the world and compare their vaccination rate with their autism rate. Its not even worth having a thread where people spout off at the mouth about this article or that article. Its pure fact.

[BeHereNow]

119. Welcome to DU...

You will find that certain DUers spout off on certain topics
as if on schedule.
The "ignore" button is your friend.
Again, Welcome to DU!
BHN

[eridani]

132. Maybe they never think they need a special term for the occasional kid who acts weird? n/t

[eridani]

130. The two aren't mutually exclusive

The genetics could involve greater than average sensitivity to heavy metal poisoning.

[TZ]

3. Oh yes the scientists are totally nasty vicious people who are trying

really hard to actually be rational!!!
You think this woman is being called nasty names? Its actually the opposite way. Based on the "beliefs" of lay people who have little to no knowledge of the actual science behind vaccines and the industry and someone who has the magical name of "kennedy" (when did that become a substitue for a pHD btw). Its Kennedy thats the fraud. And I am getting tired of being accused by outsiders who have no clue on the science based on unfounded paranoia and fear and lack of understanding of how the industry actually WORKS, of being a unethical child killing money grubbing nazi!! I am in this industry to save lives as are 90% of my very dedicated colleages!!!:rant:

[Recursion]

22. No, they just don't want to end up like Tsunao Saitoh n/t

[mzmolly]

74. Give it a rest. There are ACTUAL scientists who dispute the claims

that mercury is suddenly not a neurotoxin if it's loaded into a vaccine concoction.

[MonkeyFunk]

78. Who has claimed

that mercury is suddenly not a neurotoxin?

[mzmolly]

79. Thimerosal IS mercury.

Thus, those who defend thimerosal as "safe" are making that claim.

[MonkeyFunk]

81. again

who has claimed that mercury is suddenly no longer a neurotoxin?

I haven't seen anybody say that.

It's like saying that because botusism can kill, anybody getting botox is on death's door.

[mzmolly]

83. Many people have made this claim.

It's like saying that eating mercury in fish is bad, yet injecting it into the muscle tissue of infants is good.

[MonkeyFunk]

85. I've never sen anyone make that claim

it would certainly be a silly one.

That's not to say, however, that vaccines cause autism.

[mzmolly]

87. Well, one must read between the lines.

Absurd to suggest that a neurotoxin can harm the brain now is it?

[MonkeyFunk]

88. no

in science, one doesn't have to read between the lines. The evidence is either there or it is not.



I'm sure it's frustrating that your pet theory can't be backed with science - thus you must discount science itself, or the scientists who study this issue.

Your frustration aside, the evidence does not show that vaccines cause autism.

[mzmolly]

89. Again, that's very cute. You all are so good with the big pharma talking points.

KUDOS to all! "There is no evidence...." Have you read "Evidence of Harm?" I'm guessing not? How bout John Kennedy's 66 page report which notes international evidence?

[BeHereNow]

117. "the evidence does not show that vaccines cause autism..." YET.

Thankfully, the issue is becoming more and more public, thus,
research will follow.

Don't forget MF, at one time people believed the world was flat.

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

141. yes

some people believed the world was flat.

I love when people throw that argument as if it means something. They think it means that current wisdom is always wrong - that is not true.

[OneBlueSky]

7. don't know the science, but SOMETHING is causing the terrible increase in autism . . .

among our children . . . it has to be something environmental, because there's absolutely no reason for vast numbers of "pre-disposed" parents to all of a sudden appear . . . whether it's mercury or something else, it's a man-made phemonenon that we have to get to the bottom of . . . there are just too many cases to ignore . . .

[LeftishBrit]

9. I think there are two main factors here:

(1) There are changes in diagnosis. People who were in the past regarded as 'mentally handicapped' if their problems were severe, or 'maladjusted' if their problems were milder, are more likely nowadays to be diagnosed as autistic.

(2) Very premature or sick babies are much more likely to survive than 30 years ago; and perinatal problems greatly increase the risk of autism. Such children in the past may not have survived to be diagnosed as autistic.

There are likely to be some additional environmental factors involved - I just don't think these are vaccines. There is *some* evidence (though it's conflicting) that the whooping-cough vaccine of 20 or 30 years ago occasionally caused brain damage - but this usually involved acute illness with long-term effects, not behavioural changes on their own. As regards other vaccines, there really seems to be very little evidence for any link to autism - MMR vaccines were withdrawn and then reintroduced in Japan, and the rate of increase in autism did not change over that period; and removal of mercury from vaccines, though a good thing in itself, does not seem to have changed autism rates.

Has there ever been a good study of whether pregnant mothers' diet, or pollutants or infections that they may be exposed to, or , might affect the risk of autism?

[back2basics909]

11. In the test trial...

.. the evidence shows that only 8% of cases on the spectrum are non genetic. So if there is a trigger, its only in a small amount of cases.

Here is the link to that specific peice of evidence.

ftp://autism.uscfc.uscourts.gov/autism/transcripts/day06.pdf

[pnwmom]

17. A trigger can be involved in cases of genetically linked diseases, too.

There are many diseases that are genetically linked, but require some sort of trigger -- even a variety of triggers -- before the disease develops.

Autism, in particular, has been linked to a host of gastrointestinal problems, including leaky gut syndrome -- which could make the child more susceptible to a number of other problems -- possibly including mercury poisoning.

[MN ChimpH8R]

59. Bingo

Asperger's and High Functioning Autism have only been recognized by the mental health community in the US for the last fifteen or so years. When I was a kid, oddballs like me who were obviously not mentally impaired were considered to be "weird," "maladjusted" or even schizoid. There are a lot more recognized diagnoses available to psychiatrists and psychologists now than there were in the 60s-80s.

People like me went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed until AS and HFA were recognized. If you weren't classic Kannner's Autism, an autism diagnosis was not even considered.

[back2basics909]

10. There is no evidence...

.. that there is an increase in Autism, at all.

There have always been Autistic kids. Another myth is there are no Autistic adults. How about the man who rain man was based on? Or Einstein.

My mother works in a home for adults with various developmental disorders, mostly they are full with people who were never diagnosed with Autism when they were younger, but certainly have Autism.

Several of these myths give plausability to the vaccine issue, take them away and you are left with no plausability to the vaccine causation.

[KamaAina]

19. How about several DUers?

Another myth is there are no Autistic adults. How about the man who rain man was based on? Or Einstein.

Check us out over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=387

P.S. I met Kim Peek, the man who Rain Man was based on, at a conference here in March. Actually, Kim does not have classic autism, but rather a brain abnormality in which he has no corpus callosum, the structure that divides the brain's hemispheres. Basically, Kim has one big "unisphere". And yet, to the casual observer, he presents as a person with autism; his calendar and trivia skills are far superior to mine!!

[pnwmom]

32. I understood that studies in California showed a significant increase

in autism.

No one is arguing that autism is new, but a certain fraction of cases might be resulting from increasing environmental exposures to toxins, including thimerosol, pesticides, etc.

[moc]

69. The reports from California are flawed methodologically because

they confuse prevalence with incidence. Their presentation of data is grossly misleading, to say the least.

The leading expert on the epidemiology of autism is Eric Fombonne of McGill University. Some representative citations you might find interesting include:

Fombonne, E. (2001). Is there an epidemic of autism? Pediatrics, 107, 411-413.

Fombonne, E. (2003). Epidemiological surveys of autism and other pervasive developmental disorders: An update. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 33 (4), 365-382.

Fombonne, E., Zakarian, R., & Bennett, A., Meng, L., & McLean-Heywood D. (2006). Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and links with immunizations. Pediatrics,118(1):e139-50.

There used to be a great lecture that was linked online as part of a continuing medical education site in which Dr. Fombonne walked through the epidemiological issues under the secular trends in autism rates, but last I checked, it appeared the link was gone.

My understanding is that we really don't know if there's an increase because the types of data routinely available can't answer changes in incidence, only changes in rates of services provided. There was a great piece on NPR a few years ago about a study in WV attempting a comprehensive dx of a complete birth cohort to collect incidence data to compare with another birth cohort, but I don't know if the data are available yet. I don't have time to look for the NPR link now but can later if you're interested.

[mzmolly]

82. I'm not sure who deemed Fombonne "THE leading expert" but his work has been

critiqued.

The National Autism Association has pointed out flaws in a study by Fombonne published in 2006 by the journal Pediatrics, citing data that indicates Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) rates continued to increase in tandem with increased MMR vaccine coverage in Montreal and the introduction of a second dose of MMR for children aged 18 months in 1996. Rates also continued to increase after 1996 but contrary to Dr. Fombonne's statement that Thimerosal-exposure after 1996 was NIL, foreign-born children and native children less than 7 years old with at least one parent from a list of more than 100 countries (Montreal Health Dept.) with high prevalence of Hepatitis B may have received the Hepatitis B vaccine series before a Thimerosal-free hepatitis B vaccine was licensed in 2001. A peak rate of 1 in 87 children diagnosed with PDD was reached for the 1999 birth cohort in 2006-2007. Sandra Caron, clinical nurse of the International Health Clinic of Ste.Justine's children Hospital, Montreal wrote: "Practically all children present a vaccinal delay or don't have the same vaccines than here, or vaccines of foreign countries are more or less reliable, so vaccination has to be readministered from the beginning" and these children represent another subset of the population that could have been exposed to even larger amounts of Tm during Fombonne's "nil" exposure period. The data on children studied by Fombonne consisted of a single Montreal school board, suggesting a regional data bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Fombonne

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/04/MNGH2B60I41.DTL

[moc]

91. Unless they publish their critique in a peer-reviewed journal, I don't

give it a lot of credence.

[mzmolly]

93. I assume you've seen the international studies Kennedy speaks of?

His report is fascinating MOC. Give it a read. http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

[moc]

101. Fascinating? Not so much.

It's a bunch of gobbledygook.

Why should I believe him over the Institute of Medicine? Before you start screaming about "bought off" scientists, I know the chair of that IOM committee personally, and I've worked with her on several occasions. I have the utmost respect for her as a scientist, and I have no doubt that the conclusions of that committee are scientifically sound. Don't even think of slandering her.

[mzmolly]

102. Doesn't sound like you've read it?

Here it is again. It's not about believing one person.

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

Also of interest >

New Columbia University Study Confirms IOM Vaccine-Autism Report Is Wrong

...

"This study is a perfect example of the scientific findings that the IOM ignored when creating their recent report on the potential of a vaccine-autism link," stated Lyn Redwood, RN, MSN, NP, president of SafeMinds. "The IOM was well aware that studies such as these were due for release, but chose to ignore them—which is why SafeMinds called the IOM’s report premature."

Dr. Mady Hornig, associate professor at Columbia University, conducted this first-of-its-kind research study, which found that the administration of low-dose mercury—like that in children’s vaccines—can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the developing brain. “Identifying the connection…is extremely exciting because it enables us to intervene and limit that exposure in a specific population,” said Hornig in Columbia University’s press release.

Last month, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) Immunization Safety Review Committee released a widely panned report that attempted to deny the mercury-vaccine-autism link. “The findings in this study make clear that the IOM was more interested in regurgitating CDC spin than incorporating hard science, like Dr. Hornig’s report. Such information would force the government to face the reality of the Thimerosal threat and take definitive action to protect countless children from potential neurological damage".

““Until the CDC and FDA stop hindering crucial medical research, and stop playing Enron-esque accounting games under the label of ‘science’ to protect their position and policy makers, it will be up to independent organizations, like SafeMinds, to assure that every possible research avenue is funded,” concluded Redwood.

So if you knew Dr. Mady Horning would you feel differently? By the way she too is an epidemiologist.

Background:

Mady Hornig, MD, Associate Professor of Epidemiology, is Director of Translational Research in the Center for Immunopathogenesis and Infectious Diseases at the Mailman School of Public Health. A physician-scientist, she is widely recognized for her work on the role of viral and immune factors in neurodevelopmental and other neuropsychiatric disorders, and the neuropharmacologic and neuroendocrine aspects of treatment resistant mood disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder in adults.

Dr. Hornig received a BA as a College Scholar from Cornell University in 1978, where her honors work focused on "Biology, Law and Society"; an MA in Psychology from the Graduate Faculty of The New School for Social Research in 1983; and an MD from the Medical College of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia in 1988. Her postgraduate training included Residency in Psychiatry at the University of Vermont (1988-1992), during which she completed a clinical and research fellowship in neuropharmacology (1991-1992), and an NIMH National Research Science Award Postdoctoral Fellowship in Neuropsychopharmacology at the University of Pennsylvania (1992-1994). Her honors include the Society for Women Engineers and Mathematicians (1974); College Scholar, Cornell University (1974-1978); American Medical Association (AMA) Rock Sleyster Memorial Scholar (1987); Best Resident Teacher, University of Vermont College of Medicine (1989); Association for Academic Psychiatry/Mead Johnson Fellowship in Academic Psychiatry (1991); NARSAD Young Investigator (1993); NIH K08 Mentored Clinical Scientist Development Award (1998-2003); and an NIH Pediatric Research Loan Repayment Program Award (2002-2004).

Dr. Hornig’s translational research focuses on understanding the mechanisms by which infection, immune disturbances, and neurotoxins lead to neurodevelopmental damage or CNS dysfunction, contributing to neuropsychiatric conditions such as autism, schizophrenia, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, obsessive compulsive disorders, and mood disorders. Her research program integrates data from animal models and epidemiologic studies, incorporating behavioral, neurochemical, neurostructural, molecular, immunologic and microbiologic perspectives. She serves as Director of Clinical Core for a large, international multicenter program, led by Dr. Ian Lipkin, that is evaluating the role of Borna disease virus in human neuropsychiatric diseases, and as co-PI for a study of measles virus sequences in bowel biopsies of children with autism.

[moc]

104. A rat study?

You think a single rat study invalidates the IOM report? Umm...okay. I'll be sure to ring up Dr. McCormick tomorrow and let her know. I'm sure she'll be ever grateful for the tip.

You're right. It's not about believing one person. But, it's about being careful who you listen to. I think I'll take IOMs conclusions over SafeMinds, thank you very much.

[mzmolly]

107. So we should now suspend animal studies? The goal posts keep changing apparently?

First of all, Kennedy quotes various international studies. The info I posted does not consist of "a rat study."

However, tell me why Dr. Horning isn't qualified to carry out a scientific study in this regard? I assume you know Mady Horning was quoted in the IOM?

Further, what kind of "study" would you suggest in order to settle various epidemiological he said, she saids?

Here is more info on Dr. Horning.

Etiologic factors and pathogenesis of autism: evidence from clinical studies and animal models

Mady Hornig, M.D., Associate Professor, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health

Dr. Hornig went through the current research getting the IOM up to speed with where the issue/controversy is right now. Her presentation also discussed her research that consisted of injecting rats with thimerosal and then monitoring any behavioral changes. Video during her presentation showed rats that consequently developed harmful repetitive behaviors following the injections with thimerosal on a vaccine schedule that mimicked our children’s vaccine schedule. One of the rats died as a result.

Pardon me, but I defer to Dr. Horning. A "scientist" who many claim "doesn't exist."

I suggest you copy this into your browser and give it a listen. Her claims are not outrageous. In fact, she reasserts consensus sans the political financial interests that muddy the debate currently.

http://www.iom.edu/view.asp?id=19108

Here is a link with her video presentation: http://autismmedia.org/media14.html

Here is the peer reviewed study: http://autismmedia.org/papers/hornig.pdf

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Quite wrong.

There is ample evidence that the rate of autism occurrence is dramatically increasing.

The Autistic children in my acquaintance (several) including my son, would have been given medical/psychiatric treatment even 30 years ago.

The neurodevelopmental clinic at Childrens Hospital in Seattle participated in a study which found that there has been essentially no change in the occurrence of mental illness or developmental disorders that might have been mistakenly attributed in the past to Autism. If Autism had been misdiagnosed in the past, one would expect to see a decline in the rate occurrence of these other illnesses.

There is an epidemic, it's not just the diagnosis d'jour.

[LeftishBrit]

136. It's not that autistic children would not have had treatment 30 years ago..

It's that some of them would have had a different label then.

Some did get diagnosed as autistic, but some were described as 'mentally handicapped, 'emotionally disturbed', 'psychotic' or other diagnoses.

It's true of a lot of conditions. I have had Crohn's disease since the age of 5. When I was a child, it was medical opinion that children could not have this condition. So I was constantly at the doctor's, but with all sorts of other diagnoses: that I was 'delicate' or had frequent infections or was suffering from too many antibiotics for all the infections or that it was all psychosomatic and I had emotional problems. Eventually, it was realized that children *could* have it. For that reason, I'm also rather sceptical about claims that Crohns disease has risen in incidence.

I hope your son is doing well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. He's doing well, thank you.

But if autism was misdiagnosed as something else 10 or 20 years ago, one would expect a reduced frequency in the diagnosis of other similar disorders. Given the fact that (in this time frame) the rate of occurrence has gone from 1 in 2500 to 1 in 166 children diagnosed with autism, the effect should be obvious. In fact, it should pretty well eliminate the occurrence of these other disorders.

This reduction has not occurred. Autism diagnoses have increased, while the rate of other developmental disorder diagnoses have not changed.

[mzmolly]

75. Epidemiological evidence is considered "evidence."

However, your claim is not factual. If that were the case, we'd still think it was ok to eat mercury laden fish.

[MonkeyFunk]

80. if the evidence

existed that showed a link between thimerosol and autism, we wouldn't be arguing over this.

That evidence does not exist. Some studies, which have been convincingly refuted, appeared to show a link - nobody has proven that link, much less showed a direct cause an effect relationship.

[mzmolly]

84. Oh, how cute.

You think that big pharma would let that cat out of the bag without a fight huh? What color is the sky in your world?

[MonkeyFunk]

86. That's no more strange

than believing that every scientist in the world who studies this has been bought off.

[mzmolly]

90. "Every" scientist hasn't been "bought off" which is why the debate continues.

As Kennedy noted in his report/article there is international science aka "evidence" that indicates that there is a link. http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

[pnwmom]

16. Here's a question for anybody with an opinion.

From the OP:

"The federal agencies have refused to release the massive public health information accumulated in their Vaccine Safety Database (VSD) apparently to keep independent scientists from reviewing evidence that could prove the link. They are also muzzling or blackballing scientists who want to conduct such studies."

If they're not hiding something, why doesn't the CDC make the database available to qualified, independent scientists?

[glitch]

20. Thanks for posting pnwmom. Always good to hear from RFKjr. K & R

The posts on the link are also really good.

[pnwmom]

27. You're welcome, glitch.

[spooky3]

23. as a relative of someone with autism, I find several terms he uses troubling

"Autistics", rather than "persons with autism" or even "autistic people", sounds like "retards" or "cripples" to me. "Autistic" is an adjective, not a noun, like Democratic vs. Democrat. More importantly, calling people "autistics" defines the whole person by the disorder which is only a part of who they are. I realize that different people have different preferences, but this usage is completely at odds with the language considered appropriate for persons with other types of disabilities for a long time.

edited to add link:
http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/cedir/language.html

"became convinced that...vaccines destroyed their children's brains." Uh, that implies the children have no brains left, with all of the insulting though perhaps unintended implications. The vast majority of people with autism certainly don't fall in this category. Perhaps what he meant to say was that they believe these vaccines damaged or harmed their children in some way, or destroyed the functioning of part of their brains.

It seems very strange that someone who professes to be on top of this would use such terminology. I realize this is a side point but it's still important to me.

[cynatnite]

24. Glad I wasn't the only one...

My grandson has autism and his brain has not been destroyed. In fact, he's a bright, loving little boy. That bothered me a lot.

[spooky3]

96. glad to hear your grandson is doing so well!

[pnwmom]

28. good points, Spooky3.

But I think that some parents -- those whose children went from very high functioning to losing speech and other abilities and retreating into a shell -- may be forgiven for using terms like that.

[spooky3]

94. certainly agree, if it is the parents using those words

[eridani]

134. I'm not so willing to forgive "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logic, though.

Because vaccines are commonly given at the age when autistic symptoms appear doesn't imply a causal connection.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Excellent points. Thank you. n/t

[spooky3]

98. thanks!

:hi:

[cynatnite]

25. My grandson is the first and only person in our family with autism...

No one else, including extended families on both sides, has ever had anything like this. We're not convinced that vaccinations had anything to do with this.

[pnwmom]

30. My allergist described my allergies to me using the metaphor

of a bucket. I have lots of little allergies. Anything I am exposed to goes in my bucket, and as long as my bucket is only partly full I am okay. But if enough of my allergies are active at the same time, then my bucket is full and I have symptoms.

Perhaps something like this occurs with autism triggers. Our modern environment is filled with toxins. Most people seem to be able to withstand them most of the time. But there appear to be some susceptible individuals who experience more ill effects than others. And in certain individuals, maybe thimerosol -- which could be tolerated by most children -- couldn't be tolerated.

We do know that many people with autism have gastrointestinal problems. Maybe the GI sensitivity comes first -- reducing the child's ability to handle toxins -- which provides the trigger for the autism.

What I find inexplicable and inexcusable is the government's refusal to share the info in their vaccine database with well qualified, independent researchers.

[glitch]

33. Complex systems processes are still a new concept to a lot of people.

Probably most people. The bucket analogy is a good one, that last drop finally causing a reaction reminds me of a butterfly in Asia triggering a hurricane in the Gulf. The world is full of tipping points.

[cynatnite]

37. Good points...

And it is shameful that the government won't hand over the database. While I don't expect a cure, I do hope we find a way of halting autism in it's tracks.

My daughter is so careful with her son's diet because he's sensitive to a variety of foods and drink. She did find a great school for him and I must say it's like night and day with him. He was so distant and seemed to be in a world all his own. Now, he's talking, bright and so lovable.

This all came as quite a shock to us when we realized what was going on with him. At first we thought he was just a little slower than other toddlers. Autism was something that affected other families. We're still learning as we go.

[mzmolly]

95. I also read recently that antibiotics hinder the elimination of mercury from the body?

Couple what you note and one can conceive how a vulnerable person is more so under various conditions.

:hi:

[Cha]

105. Hi mzmolly, did you see this issue

of People Magazine with the article of Holly Peete Robinson and their son who is a twin and autistic?



http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20040086,00.html

It was very interesting and inspiring..I gave it someone whose grandson is a twin with autism and he said their mother made a copy of it..she liked it so much.

[mzmolly]

108. Hey Z!

:hi: I have not seen that! I'll check it out, thanks. :)

[Cha]

110. You're most welcome!

:hi: I got mine at the Library. :)

[pnwmom]

120. I think I saw something about that, too.

And so many babies have had antibiotics before they are two.

[spooky3]

100. interesting, thanks!

[K8-EEE]

29. As a mom who saw my child change post-vax,

and who is often attacked for that observation, I thank him for this.

I liken it to the "More Doctors Smoke Camels" type campaigns they used to run long after the effects of cigarettes were known...and yet not "conclusive."

[pnwmom]

31. I think he is speaking specifically to people like you.

My pediatrician always made a point of trusting mother's instincts. Too bad many doctors don't.

So sorry to hear about your child! I lost a baby sister to the old DTP vaccine, and my children had reactions to the same vaccine. So while our children are vaccinated, we are very cautious.

[DerBeppo]

42. "instinct" told us the earth was at the center of the universe.

silly, close-minded science sure messed that one up.

[IndyOp]

40. I am glad to find you on this thread...

I know that the Thimerosol/Chelation therapy stories are just anecdotal, but dramatic anecdotes deserve follow up attention.

I believe that there can be multiple triggers and that environmental mercury, thimerosol, and allergies to certain food substances and/or chemicals in "modern" food can all interact for those who are genetically vulnerable.

My mind is open. And, I just found some interesting -- totally, totally anecdotal -- videos...

Baxter's Recovery from Autism
http://www.childrenscornerschool.com/video/bax3.html

Ethan's Recovery
http://www.childrenscornerschool.com/ethansrecoveryweb.html

Ethan, 1 year after biomedical intervention
http://www.childrenscornerschool.com/ethancar.html

More...
http://www.childrenscornerschool.com/recoveries.htm

[mzmolly]

92. I'm so glad we have such a powerful progressive voice

telling the truth for people like you.

Peace

[H2O Man]

34. Thank you RFK Jr.

Robert is a good man, who is telling parents the truth. There are a lot of folks who are interested in trying to discredit him. But what he is saying is true.

[MonkeyFunk]

41. If what he's saying is true

then the science that backs him up should be readily available. It is not.

[BeHereNow]

45. Thank goodness he, and others ARE saying it.

Now perhaps the scientists will beging to look
more closely at what WE, the parents have suspected
all along.

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

46. are you saying no

scientists have looked at such a possible link? How odd.

[BeHereNow]

48. I am saying they haven't even begun to research the issue.

As the issue becomes more public, as more and more parents
speak out and members of the medical profession admit
to vaccine damage, as MY PEDIATRICIAN did-
I think the more intensive the research will become.

In that you are not my child's pediatrician, or a medical professional
yourself MF, let me once again remind you that my doctor DID
admit to a pertussis reaction in my daughter- So whether or not
her asperger's is related to that is irrelevant. Fact is,
she DID have a deadly reaction, and I think THAT is
the point to further research being conducted as to the safety, timing
and neural development of the infant brain where vaccines are concerned.
Vaccine death could become a thing of the past due to the research
And yes MF, like it or not, babies do die as the result of
ADRs in vaccinations.
I know, I was there.

BHN

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Many many scientists all over the world

have looked into this. But their research is ignored or disputed by those who wish to believe something different.

[mzmolly]

97. Indeed, and Kennedy quotes many such scientists in his article.

;)

[BeHereNow]

47. Isn't is interesting how the SAME people keep showing up to discredit?

None of them parents of children damaged by vaccines, mind you.
BHN

[H2O Man]

49. Yep.

It's almost like some people have an agenda.

[BeHereNow]

50. Or a vested interest? N/T

bhn

[MonkeyFunk]

56. Don't be ridiculous

I have no vested interest, other than being fond of science and being opposed to sloppy thinking.

[H2O Man]

64. Yep.

When it comes to RFK's view of the science, versus the opinions of those attacking him, I'll trust in Robert every time.

[MonkeyFunk]

51. Because

being a parent doesn't give you special scientific skills.

We're simply saying the science doesn't exist to confirm your suspicions, which are based on anecdotes.

I'm having some vision problems today. I also had a bagel for breakfast. If I insisted that bagels cause blurred vision, you'd be right to be suspicious of my claim.

[BeHereNow]

52. Are you dense?

My daughter stopped breathing, hours after a DTP vaccination.
She was revived, thank GOD.
The pediatrician told me it was due to a pertussis reaction.
WHAT part of that requires me to be a scientist?

Are YOU a doctor?
Are you saying my doctor LIED to me about the cause of
my daughter's respiratory failure due to an ADR to pertussis
in the vaccine?

You've got some nerve.

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

54. I've never said

there's no such thing as a vaccine reaction.

I've said there's no solid science indicating vaccines are the cause of autism.

Calm down.

[BeHereNow]

58. And I say, the verdict is still out on it.

Easy for you to tell me to calm down.
I, and many other parents, have experienced untold horror
related to vaccines.
Please do excuse us for our insistence that the matter be
investigated more thoroughly in the hope to save others
from experiencing what our children have.

You strike me as one cold blooded individual,
and I would be fairly certain that you have no children of your own.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

62. oh please

enough histrionics.

We're discussing a scientific matter. It seems you won't be pleased with the science until it confirms your preconceived notion.

The fact is, this HAS been studied (probably not enough) and so far, the science does NOT back up the claim that vaccines cause autism. That is true whether or not I have children, or whether or not you think I'm cold-hearted. Are you really saying it's cold-hearted to disagree with you? How absurd.

[eridani]

135. Anybody at any age can have that kind of reaction

It's rare, but any vaccine poses that risk. But that's unacceptable, so let's just go back to the days of 20-50% infant mortality.

[BeHereNow]

53. Vaccine reactions are NOT anecdotes. They are medical facts.

And by the way, who is the "we're" you are referring to?

You keep trying to imply that my doctor was wrong.
Can I see your medical credentials?

BHN

[BeHereNow]

55. For the record MF- in 1986, when my daughter stopped breathing due to an ADR

It was MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC RECORD, as disclosed to the consumer,
the .06 % of the population could potentially experience an adverse drug reaction
from the DPT vaccinations.
As a result, because of cases like my daughter's, the DPT vaccine has
been modified.

Care to debate further?

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

65. I've already said

that I don't doubt the existence of vaccine reactions - it would be more surprising if there were NO reactions.

That has nothing to do with whether vaccines cause autism. I'm perfectly willing to believe that vaccines cause autism, as long as sound science backs up the claim. As of today, that sound sience doesn't exist.

[BeHereNow]

66. yet...n/t

bhn

[mzmolly]

113. And, thank YOU H20 Man!

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. The scientists are mean to those of us poisoned by chemtrails too.

The big jerks.

[MN ChimpH8R]

57. I am getting thoroughly bored with this issue

I am on the Spectrum, dx'd Asperger. When I was a kid back in the late 1950s and 1960s we got far fewer vaccines than kids get today. I'm still Asperger's.

The most reputable Asperger/HFA experts out there, including Tony Attwood and Simon Baron-Cohen are unified in their conclusion that the cause of most types of autism is overwhelmingly genetic. Autism is a highly heritable condition.

Autistic traits become noticeable about the same time as kids are getting their shots, which these days don't contain thimerosol, and the easy thing to do is attribute to cause and effect to things that happen simultaneously. It ain't necessarily so, any more than the causal link between (theoretically) me shooting out the streetlights and the sun going down.

[cynatnite]

60. How do you explain the soaring rates of autism today?

How do you explain families with no history of autism whatsoever now have it. There is no history of autism anywhere in my family and my grandson's father's family has none either. Steven is the first one to ever be diagnosed.

I'm not completely convinced there is a connection between vaccines and autism, but at the very least we should be concerned as to why in the last 5-10 years there have been an explosive rise in autism in this country.

[mzmolly]

114. That does not mean that environmental factors dont play a role.

Those who claim there is a "link" factor in genetics.

[pnwmom]

123. Celiac disease, to take one example, is also highly heritable.

But it often doesn't occur until sometime in adulthood, when a specific trigger -- a virus, a pregnancy, or other stress -- brings it on.

Perhaps some people on the autism spectrum similarly develop their symptoms because of a combination of a genetic predisposition plus an environmental trigger. And, as with celiac disease, there may be more than one possible trigger.

As you probably know, celiac disease, or gluten intolerance, is something that is more common among people on the spectrum. And it causes "leaky gut syndrome" which could make it harder for a body to tolerate environmental toxins. Perhaps in some babies, leaky gut comes first -- then exposure to toxins -- then the development of autism.

In any case, my guess is that autism, like many other conditions, will turn out to have its roots in a combination of genetics and environment.

I do not understand why the government won't open up its vaccine database to qualified researchers -- unless it is trying to hide something.

[defendandprotect]

61. Vaccines made our Troops Ill -- but not kids???

Our troops were made sick by vaccines -- why not these kids?
The studies are often financed by the very people making the ingredients and profiting.
It makes no sense that we've made the planet mortally ill, but we haven't damaged our immune systems!!!

The parents have a better thru observation what has happened to their children.

I'm amazed to see this amount of trust in drug companies, capitalism and FDA-Bush-government still exists!!!

[faithnotgreed]

70. i definitely agree with rfk jr but would take it further

i feel mercury is absolutely a causative factor and not just from vaccines but from a number of possible sources incl inherited toxicity + pollutants within air water food + mercury amalgam dental fillings and those are just a few possibilities
it can be combination of toxic pollutants + factors that cause much more than autism - there are scores of epidemic level illnesses that are happening depending upon a combination of reasons (heredity, exposure, diet, stress, some "spiritual" and human connectedness which can come in many forms, elimination/organ strength, viruses of all kinds, among others) which are why some people are impacted to differing degrees and some apparently not at all but there is no doubt that our world is staggered with disease

but i firmly believe that whether it manifests as autism or alzheimers or ms or cancer or addictions or depression etc (and there are more reasons than mercury certainly for many illnesses) that our culture is experiencing a toxic overload - be it physical emotional and or spiritual - that will not be SOLVED by the traditional pharmaceutical & medical industry
many illnesses can be partially managed and life can be helped and even saved in cases but the devastation will not stop unless we think and research outside the corporate medical box

very much like global warming - the causes and impact will not be stopped by our consumer culture but they could be lessened with radical departure from traditional or rigid thinking

just my strongly held opinion very humbly submitted

thank you so much mr kennedy - we so need your dedication and passion for truth

[MonkeyFunk]

139. And what many of us are trying to say

is that how you "feel" about the issue is irrelevent. That's not how science works.

[faithnotgreed]

142. i dont get your response but assume you read my entire post

i dont see where i argue against science
however i do not see illness existing within only the scientific realm - there are multiple reasons why disease occurs and is at such staggering numbers in our culture

i know from experience that there is a strong mind/body/spirit correlation in all illness and whether or not that fits within your opinion or experience is perfectly fine with me either way
i dont need anyone else to believe what i do nor do i try to convince thus why i said it was my strongly held but humbly submitted opinion

just letting you and anyone else know that i do not come upon this just by my "feelings" but by personal experience with illness (incl my long-term partner with aspergers) and much exposure to the traditional and alternative medical worlds + much interest and reading of these topics

and if there was such a thing as completely unbiased scientific trials of traditional v alternative methods for autism or any other illness then i would gladly take those results

[mzmolly]

73. Keep telling the truth "Bob."

The parents who were blamed for their childrens autism a short time ago, and who are now being called "hysterical" need your voice.

Thank YOU. :toast:

And, thanks for posting PNWMOM. :hi:

[NNadir]

99. Someone should advise Mr. Kennedy that the world's largest source of mercury is coal

fired power plants.

What an asshole. He should stick to lobbying against Cape Wind.

[mzmolly]

103. And your point is what

exactly? That we can't consider how various forms of mercury impact the brain?

[NNadir]

111. I very much suspect that you are clueless about mercury biochemistry.

The fact is, frankly, that agitation against vaccines is dangerous and scientifically illiterate.

In fact the OP is scientifically illiterate, big time.

My mother lay awake a lot of nights wondering if I would get polio. The people who ended that kind of worry of hundreds of millions of mothers like my mother were a class of people known as scientists. They did it by developing vaccines.

Robert Kennedy isn't going to give a rat's ass when somebody's child drops dead from diptheria or whooping cough. He couldn't care less, unless of course, the funeral obstructs in some way obstructs the view from Nantucket. A baby badly deformed by birth defects from a mother's German Measels will get not one scientifically illiterate whimper from him. Frankly his knowledge of medical science - things like double bind studies and trivialities like that is zilch.

Now, as it happens, if one is a scientist, one can make rather elaborate explanations of things like the physiology of things like thiolated complexes of mercury, the complex ion chemistry of mercury in proteins, etc, etc, etc. There is no such discussion here. Robert Kennedy wouldn't know the difference between cysteine and cyberspace.

Robert Kennedy is not a scientist. Not even close. Joe McCarthy's godson is frankly a force of ignorance in this case. He has no fucking idea what he is talking about. He's grandstanding.

[mzmolly]

112. Actually, I'm not clueless. Further, Kennedy defers to international scientists.

As for me, I'm currently listening to Dr. Mady Horning http://www.iom.edu/view.asp?id=19108 who I think "knows what she's talking about" along with the many scientists who Kennedy, Kirby and others refer to.

Also, for you to claim that there is no discussion about the "complex ion chemistry of mercury proteins" :eyes: means you are not paying attention to the debate.

Read the article. Read Kennedy's report. Do your own research before you attempt to comment on what others assert, because it's obvious by your comment just who IS "clueless" in this discussion.

Your entire post is a crock of shit. To suggest that one must "embrace" either injecting neurotoxins into children or having them drop dead of diphtheria is beyond absurd.

[pnwmom]

128. There are many SCIENTISTS who would like to know

why the government won't release its vaccine database to independent, qualified, academic researchers.

Can you explain that?

[H2O Man]

106. clown n/t

[live love laugh]

109. I just do not understand these people who would rather assist in the coverup of harmful

of the administration of harmful poisons to American families rather than hold those who may be responsible for damaging those families.

They sicken me as much as those sickened by Thimerosol laced vaccines.

[live love laugh]

116. Excuse the misspellings and grammar--posted too hastily. nt

[H2O Man]

137. They are in tune

with Sean Hannity's high-pitched squeal, "But didn't YOU ride in an SUV on February 30th, Mr. Kennedy?"

[pnwmom]

126. So? Because mercury is a environmental pollutant does not mean

we should be injecting it into our babies, too.

[glowing]

131. He has.. he poignantly impassioned a hate for the mercury in

coal powered plants. He said that it was the Bush admin. that pushed back the time cap on mercury scrubbers on coal powered plants and that 1 out of every 6 women were walking around with enough mercury in their uterus to severly harm their child, and yet you will never hear that on t.v.

[raptor_rider]

115. Personally, I do not think it is the Mercury itself

I have three children. Ages 9, 1, and 9 weeks. My 9 yr old had all of her shots, on time. She has been the sickest little girl. Always into the doctor for this and that. Ear infections, unexplained 104 degree temps with no prognosis of cause. She was diagnosed 6 months ago with Type 1 diabetes. My 1 yr old, we have decided to not do shots until we think that his body is ready to handle them. He is very healthy, only 2 colds since he was born and there were a lot of illnesses around our area that he was exposed to, and did not get. My 9 week old, we are doing the same thing with him. He was 5 weeks early, however seems to be doing just great without all of the crap being injected into his little body.

Who is to say that all of the immunizations are the cause of things going wrong with babies now days. I just know from personal experience that having these immunizations pumped into these babies bodies, from birth, 3 at a time, are not good for them.

Everyone has their own views on immunizations. Personally, I think that they need to wait for the child's body to be mature enough to handle the disease that they are injecting into their body. Give the blood cells a chance to be able to fend off the antibodies that are attacking the body when the receive the shot.

[Stop Cornyn]

121. Thanks for posting this.

[BeHereNow]

122. Welcome to DU.

BHN

[Stop Cornyn]

124. Thanks!

[BeHereNow]

125. You're welcome- happy to have you "on board."

The more the merrier and all that jazz.:hi:
BHN

[pnwmom]

127. You're welcome.

And welcome to DU, Stop Cornyn.

[TrogL]

129. CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION

The first signs of autism show up about the same time as they do vaccinations.

Autism does not cause vaccinations.

Hence you cannot say vaccinations cause autism based upon timing alone.

[live love laugh]

143. Correlation can be indicative of causation though. nt

[REP]

133. "Brain Killing Poison"? Why, Yes, Bob, You Are Overwrought and Disconnected

I am sure he means well, and I'm sure these distressed mothers want a reason why their children have neurological disorders, but this purple prose just ins't convincing.

[diane in sf]

138. There is no reason to dump a known neurotoxin into vaccines, contact lens solutions,

contraceptives, fillings, etc. There are plenty of less toxic materials that can be used. The denial of research results indicating damage here sounds a lot like the tobacco industry pretending smoking and second hand smoke don't harm people and dental associations trying to avoid lawsuits by denying harm from mercury fillings.