Incarceration Nation

[Jonathan50]

My reaction to the post about the man doing two years in prison for *junk* *in* *his* *yard* was this:

WHAAAAAAT?

Then I find out that he's going back for more time in prison for the same offense.

And the reaction of the "liberals" and "progressives" on DU?

"Serves the asshole right".

America has the highest incarceration rate of any nation on the entire planet.

And even on DU, no one wishes to discuss it.

Sometime back I did an OP which basically stated that the prime characteristic of a police state was that it had a lot of people in cages. Despite my practically begging for someone to show me wrong, not a soul even tried.

A truly sad affair.

Read it and weep:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x551686

[EFerrari]

1. I agree. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

2. Kick

The complicity of the Democrats in the selling-out of America to the PIC kept me home from the polls until I had a Bush to vote against.

I still think all the electable candidates are dead-set on locking me up, and I don't see them as any friends of mine.

[Downtown Hound]

3. I couldn't agree more

Americans are jail happy. And many DU'ers are as well. That one single issue has probably troubled me the most about this site. I would have hoped that more progressives would see through the sham known as the prison industrial complex, and although many do, many don't.

[EFerrari]

4. Don't forget to vote, folks.

This is a huge issue that gets very little attention.

[KG]

5. and people keep insisting this is a 'free' country.

[Jonathan50]

6. Thanks for the replies, y'all..

That cheers me up a bit and gives me a little hope.

[Mythsaje]

7. I know it...

Every time I read "there ought to be a law" here, I flinch.

As if there aren't enough laws to bind us.

[Vexatious Ape]

8. And half of the people in prisons are there because of our

asinine drug laws. When you live in a country that can tell you what you can and cannot put in your mouth, smoke in your pipe, or grow in your garden, you're living in a Nanny State. I have no problem with violent criminals being locked up--fuck them. I have a niece who was victimized in a brutally violent crime--it enrages me to think of what happened to her, and I'm glad the bastard predator got locked away for a long, long time. However, I think that most of our crime problems stem from over crowded prisons, half filled with drug offenders--thus allowing the real bad guys to walk the streets.

[Jonathan50]

9. See..

I said no one wishes to discuss this issue.

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

[Matsubara]

10. Never heard about the guy in jail for junk...

...but yes, we have WAY too many non-violent offenders in jail.

[Jonathan50]

11. Not jail...

PRISON..

There is a difference..

[Blackhatjack]

12. Prison is punishment, retribution, plain and simple. It does not deter or rehabilitate offenders...

While just about every state in the union has sentencing factors the judge must abide by which include 'rehabilitation', there is little thought about rehabilitation as a significant factor. And when a Judge realizes that rehabilitation is appropriate and should be implemented --there are 'mandatory minimum sentences' which take that discretion away from Judges.

At some point in time the pendulum has to swing back the other way. Increasing the incidence of incarceration, and increasing the length of incarceration, does nothing to lower recividism rates.

However once an individual has been incarcerated, the chances that they will be able to assimilate back into society is markedly reduced.

[Jonathan50]

13. Judging from the pathetic response I get even here on DU

I seriously doubt the US is going to move away from incarceration any time soon.

And your point about the incarcerated failing to assimilate back into society is another excellent reason not to incarcerate non violent offenders.

It probably cost the taxpayers at least $70,000 to incarcerate that man for two years for having junk in his yard.

I wonder if the taxpayers would agree that is a good use of their money, if it was put that way to them?

[H2O Man]

14. The prison system

is a big business. You mention the estimated cost for keeping a person incarcerated ( I think that your estimate is low), and is evident that the penal system generates a lot of money for some people.

In upstate New York, for a period of time in the late 1980s to mid-90s, the only real growth industries involved gambling and prison. More, I recall a relative who worked in a defense industry plant telling me that work that was once done by union employees was being sub-contracted to state prisons. I asked if he had any proof, and within a week, he had photocopies of work orders (he worked in the "shipping" department) that showed that he was correct.

[undergroundpanther]

21. Sociopaths are not deterred by prison or death

They repeat offend violently.
I have no problem killing off the sociopaths,and authoritarian personalities for they cause the majority of the suffering and abuse.But there must be an accurate way to distinguish toxic personalities from others. Until that happens I don't trust the state to know shit because the state is run by psychopaths and toxic bully personalities anyway..

[Tsiyu]

15. No, people are silent on this issue out of shame

because of our obsession with the "permanent record."

Lawmakers are lobbied to create more felonies to create more young prisoners to create a cheap labor force/taxpayer-supported prison population. And property rights supercede the right to freedom - to do much of anything but especially to pollute thyself while poor.

In a local courtroom recently, the issue came up of the town drunk in a teeny, weeny little town known for its heavy alcohol consumption. (Important People drink Important Alcohol.) After much back and forth deliberation between the Assistant DA and the public defender - the DA acting as if the man were the filth of the earth and the PD questioning the legality of the arrests made of this man - the judge grew weary of it all.

The public defender offered that the police knew this man had a drinking problem so whenever they saw him walking around, they just picked him up and declared him a public drunk.

After a pause, the judge declared loudly, "Well, why don't they just leave him ALONE?"

It took the Assistant DA a moment to compose his response. He struck me as a very cocky man enjoying turning the screws to poor people. It oozed from his every motion, and he threw a tantrum whenever challenged. We all waited for his answer.

Very bitterly, with teeth almost gritted, he spit out his rebuttal:

"Well, this isn't Mayberry RFD anymore!"

And at no time in my life have I seen a man stand so utterly alone, because save for a few younger trust-fund lawyers and maybe one control freak cop no one in that entire courtroom agreed with him at that moment.

Most of us want law enforcement to act with mercy and forgiveness, with wisdom and diplomacy, with respect for people's emotional state, with equal respect for their financial position be they poor or affluent, using the least force necessary and trying to be a friendly voice in the community rather than a cruel enforcer of unjust laws. Who doesn't want that?

This particular assistant DA, for one. Why doesn't he want this? Well, he lives among the wealthy taking over the poorer mountain community and he and the other property owners don't want to "see" Appalachia. They want it in prison.

His ramblings discussed property and we all know where he lives. It's a no-brainer.

I don't know what it will take to wake the middle class up. Maybe the churches will find those verses where Jesus talked about visiting people in prison and the Christians will start as big an outcry over the rights of imprisoned American teens and adults as they do about zygotes.


Nah....no money in it

[Jonathan50]

18. "Well, why don't they just leave him ALONE?"

Nice story, great line by the judge.

A lot of cops, particularly in small towns, just don't have enough to do to keep them out of people's hair.

I think sometimes they do stuff like you related out of sheer boredom as much as anything else.

[undergroundpanther]

19. That's the problem

Everyone is leaving that bored corrupt judge alone.
If he is bored in a real radical town that idiot fascist judge would have his ass in such hot water he'd have more excitement than he has had in his life before.

But our dumb ass complacent good German society ain't gonna go after the real perpetrator if that perpetrator is of a "higher" social rank in this big game of make believe and "divine rights, and authority " bullshit too many people call the"truth".

[Tsiyu]

28. The whole courtroom broke into laughter when the judge said that

Yeah, I told a local cop recently that if the local law enforcement really wanted some action they should relocate to South Central LA or Fulton County, GA or Miami, Florida. Small town life may not be as challenging or dangerous as they like.

Course, most of these powder puffs wouldn't last a minute on the "real" mean streets, so they play the Big Cheeses in these small communities to get their power fix.

[undergroundpanther]

20. sociopathy has become common

And it has turned our society into a huge dysfunctional family

[maveric]

16. Another way for rethugs to exploit cheap labor.

Like they do in CA.

[undergroundpanther]

17. DU will wake up when the cops are putting THEM in jail

Because people even on DU like to fancy themselves better than some dude who is locked up TWO YEARS for junk in HIS yard on HIS OWN yard. Arrested for not having his yard looking like everyone else's fucking yard.

Would this friendly for your own good, for your better health and "Happiness" type Fascism... ever really crack like a bloody dawn over some marble heads here BEFORE they get arrested and sent to jail for something banal like a junky yard or taking one too many sugar packets at the Wawa? I dunno. but the fact you had to wait,instigate and repost it to get attention here for this atrocity and yahoos went so far as to say "he deserved it" tells me alot about the little monkey spheres,
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html
and ostriches in the land of make believe
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2005/1481032.htm
in here.

The concept of making things up and believing them is not just for republicans anymore..
DU needs to listen to it's more radical voices more closely for they ARE truly democratic and remember what the left IS about,and stop believing the same old crap about what you can and cannot do to defend yourself, your community in this time of tyranny.
Shit people my NEIGHBOR was DISAPPEARED!!Yes Taken away who knows where by a entourage of soldiers and law enforcement enough to make me very wary of the 'powers that be' and even grow to see them as dangerous.What would people do in the 60's if people started disappearing?
http://www.unknownnews.org/070602a-Panther.html
I wonder how many of you have had neighbors just go poof.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

This is NO TIME for mealy mouthed moderation or for knuckleheaded insecure people to spout pointless petty arrogance..over an issue of tyranny like being arrested and jailed 2 fucking YEARS for how your YARD looks.

I get frustrated with DU as do others,who are more radical do because alot of people on DU keep playing that tired old make believe dress up game of pandering to the non existent center that has already moved everything rightward (the center has become REPUBLICAN) the neocon grip on this nation will not be broken by sucking up more,rolling over and obeying right wing bullies,pointless letter writing campaigns ,phone calls or waving signs yelling, It isn't getting any results so to keep doing the same thing in the face of failure well, it is stupid it is madness considering what's at stake.

Truth is we may have to think of the 'unthinkable and if DU is afraid to think of that, afraid of being really truly on the left than there's a problem here and it's called make believe. You cannot negotiate or compromise with bullies and criminals -ever.And the white house and congress is packed with them.Cheney thinks he is above accountability.We need to show him he is not because if we let him get away with it. He will DO illegal tyrannical things over and over and push the envelope twords more tyranny until someone or a lot of someones asserts a social boundary and that assertion must be sufficient to STOP the behavior. Anything less is capitulation to the unacceptable.

[Psyop Samurai]

23. kudos for the "monkeysphere" meme & link !

...essential concept, the particulars of which I've always observed, but had, until now, no name for!

:toast:

[annabanana]

22. Prisons are very big business and the primary employer in many a small town.

It is popular with the small town fathers and chambers of commerce because there is such a potential for growth

[Iris]

24. Sadly, not everyone here is liberal or progressive.

I've come to believe a lot of folks here are just here because they got f--ed up the a-- by the current administration.

Padon my vehemence, but I am really weary of the "s/he deserved it" contigent around here.

[Jonathan50]

25. I agree with you Iris..

Lots of talking the talk, but considerably less of walking the walk.

People's unconscious reactions reveal much about them.

[Iris]

27. The truly sad thing to me is that I became MORE aware of that fact when I first

started coming here. It used to be if you just blindly spouted out unconsidered reactions, someone would nicely call you on it. That forced me to do more research for myself and get really clear in my thinking.

That's not to say I don't still have some purely gut-level, rat-brained reactions!

[Jonathan50]

29. Not rat brained..

Reptile brained..

The very core of our brain is of reptilian origin if you go back far enough.

I'm fairly emotional IRL, but online I never lose my cool.

Hung out on usenet political newsgroups for too long to be bothered by anything anyone can say anymore.

[undergroundpanther]

30. Me too

Except when it comes to bullies pedophiles or rapists.I have no pity for them they are sociopaths and as far as I am concerned I wish all the sociopaths,psychopaths,authoritarians were all dead. For everyone else, yeah I am sick of the deserved it meme too.Victims shouldn't be blamed or re victimized but yet for some it's easier to blame a victim,withhold rightful judgment and stand by and do nothing which helps a perpetrator than it is to do what the victimized asks which is to get involved,enact judgments, set a boundary etc.

[Iris]

31. I understand what you mean about the bullies, pedophiles, and rapists.

But I still think we should find a humane way to punish them and separate them from society. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our sense of humanity to punish them. I do think many of the threads detailing what should be done to pedophiles in the like come mostly out of anger and a certain sense of helplessness and that a less emotional discussion would probably not be so disturbing to me.

[undergroundpanther]

32. Killing psychopaths quickly and painless as possible

Is not going to make anyone lose thier humanity, once you have a consience you never lose it. That idea you can lose your humanity, is a MYTH.It is far more inhuman to give them freedom to harm others again with the 'humanitarian' 'ideals, misplaced pity ,mercy and trust.

When I am angry at what a rapist or pedophile or a psychopasth does..I vocalize my anger.Like most people do and it is not pretty ..BUT it is part of being human like it or not.People can say sickening things in anger but that does not mean they ACT on it or treat non psychopaths that way.

I found while researching psychopaths that they have high stimulation thresholds.Normal life bores them. The boredom of a prison cell is quite possibly torture to them. It is merciful, it seems to me to just kill them. You cannot let psychopaths have freedom again they will use it to hurt others again because torture, abuse and rape is what they want to get away with doing..
It's all a big game to them.

Among psychopaths who kill, a thrill-seeking temperament and sadistic interests form a toxic brew, Porter says. Famous sexual murderers such as Ted Bundy and Albert DeSalvo, who was known as the Boston Strangler, targeted a wide array of victims to fend off boredom, he says.

Psychopaths plan murders with special care because the stakes are so high, Porter argues. Even their impulsive, nonhomicidal offenses, such as robberies and assaults, reflect not an inability to control behavior so much as a lack of interest in controlling it, he suggests.

In interviews with 50 additional men imprisoned for murder, Porter found that psychopaths not only committed the bulk of premeditated homicides but also tried to explain them away as being provoked by others.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061209/bob9.asp

[Jonathan50]

33. However...

The great majority of people convicted of really violent crimes were violated themselves as children.

Childhood abuse is exceedingly common among violent criminals.

Violence is, at least to an extent, a learned behavior.

[undergroundpanther]

35. Ooops double post.

Read the next one.more links.

[undergroundpanther]

37. You are perpetuating a myth.

That notion abused kids turn out to be adult abusers is a MYTH.a MYTH.There are serial killers who had happy childhoods and good parents. The vampire myth does not account for those psychopaths does it? Cleckly found "A very large percentage of the psychopaths I have studied showed backgrounds that appear conducive to happy development and excellent adjustment."

I know tons of people brutalized as kids including myself who DID NOT abuse people as adults.
http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/vampire_syndrome.html
People automatically assume that male survivors of sexual abuse are going to become sexual perpetrators or homosexual. If you survived physical or sexual abuse, many people believe you will automatically abuse your own children or others. This is NOT true. This is known as the "vampire myth" - once bitten you are a "vampire" who will "bite" others. This doesn't have to be the case, and the majority of boys who were abused do NOT grow up to be abusers.
http://www.therapist4me.com/Child%20Abuse.htm
Please stop spreading the insulting LIE that all kids who are abused grow up to become like their abusers!

It has been shown that punishment and behavior modification techniques do not improve the behavior of a psychopath. They have been regularly observed to respond to both by becoming more cunning and hiding their behavior better. It has been suggested that traditional therapeutic approaches actually make them, if not worse, then far more adept at manipulating others and concealing their behavior. They are generally considered to be not only incurable but also un-treatable.

Repeating the vampire myth victim blaming crap does more than add damage to the original crime, it can contribute to the continuation of a cycle of violence.By dehumanizing trauma survivors the majority who do not abuse people.

Please educate yourself about the real life effects of trauma on children and adults,..Please don't spread this hurtful vampire myth around,and definitely don't use this lie to excuse the sadism of psychopaths and their ilk.

Psychopathy is more and more being discovered to be an inborn trait it can be seen in kids as young as age 2!
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/theory/index.html

[Jonathan50]

26. Kick, just to keep it in the public eye.. n/t

[Zodiak]

34. Our society rewards authoritarianism and conformity

Hence people are programmed to think only in those terms while discounting individualism and freedom, which are not rewarded.

For a rebel like me, our society is absolutely sickening and should not be blindly obeyed just because it is there.

To an authoritarian, it is a paradise of control. Why should it not be obeyed? It is there, isn't it?

[RestoreGore]

36. Thanks for this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1168079&mesg_id=1168079

I posted this today, and just saw your thread up here now. I wish I could recommend it. A shame this doesn't get more discussion and attention. Our prison system is a reflection of a very shattered national soul.