Should parents of screaming kids be held responsible?

[Archae]

I just saw a segment on our local news, about some New York state parents who have a backyard pool.

The two kids (both under 12) are constantly screaming while they play.
The neighbors asked the parents and pleaded with the parents, to stop the kids from screaming.

The screaming continued, and the neighbors are taking the parents to court, since the parents refuse to even TRY to stop the screaming.

I used to live next door to a playground, and the kids' screaming was horrible.
I asked the playground supervisors nicely to stop them from screaming constantly.
I was told to fuck off.

I said, "Fine, I'll tape the screaming and then see you in court."
The kids' screaming ended that day.

[Horse with no Name]

1. Absolutely.

All fun and frivolity should be banned forthwith and brownshirts issued.

[Archae]

2. What the hell kind of answer is THAT?

I'm not talking about having fun.

I'm talking about constant SCREAMING from little kids.

[Horse with no Name]

11. Children should be seen and not heard

Isn't that the way it is supposed to be?
FWIW, if you care, I don't believe for ONE nanosecond that a child screams constantly just to annoy someone.
So many people have gotten to the point that they view any area that they happen to be in as "their" space and get pissed when anyone invades it. My neighbors mowing their lawn at 7 in the morning pisses me off too. And I get highly irritated when they were building a garage next door. The constant hammering and buzz of saws. But you know what?
Buy some fucking earplugs. Everyone else has as much right to LIVE in their homes and yards as you do in yours within the time frame of local noise and time ordinances.

[Archae]

15. Just fine.

Like one poster mentioned below, go to a restaurant and let one or more kids scream like they do, in the next seats, while you are trying to eat.

Or go to a store, and have a couple kids follow you around screaming.
Not laughing or yelling on occasion, that high-pitched SCREAM that goes right through your eardrums.

[Horse with no Name]

17. Well it is pretty damned stupid to live next door to a PLAYGROUND

as you said you did and be bothered by children making noise.
That almost deserves a Darwin award for stupidity.

[Jade Fox]

338. I used to live next door to a school playground....

and the screeching got to all of us in my apartment building. Some of the kids would have actual screeching contests. The school did nothing in response to our complaints.

I'm all for kids being allowed to be kids, but some children really do have ear-shattering screeches that get very hard to listen to.

[uppityperson]

19. They should go through puberty sooner, get their voices dropped down in register.

Of course, then you'd have a bunch of pubescent punks hanging around, grumbling.

[Bluerthanblue]

174. once again- HWNN

you speak so well.
:hi:




my sig line speaks for me-


:hug:
blu

[Madspirit]

211. Thank-You HWNN

Yeah...summertime, swimming pool, kids=noise. These people ALL have something up their uptight butts. It is stunning.
Let's just put children, the moment they pop out, in a Borg maturation chamber and a few months later...instant adults! We'll just skip that annoying and often noisy thing...called CHILDHOOD.

This is a depressing and scary place. Kids are SUPPOSED to make noise. It's part of BEING a kid.
Lee

[jobycom]

16. It was a rather nicer answer than the one I was thinking.

:shrug:

Kids scream. You don't like it, don't move next to a playground.

[Archae]

24. I didn't.

The playground was built years after I moved there.

And my neighbors said they were fed up also.

I now live in a fairly quiet neighborhood, except for "boom cars," (I bet Horse With No Name will dump on me for complaining about those,) and very loud hot rod cars.
But those are usually few and far between.

[jobycom]

28. I like boom cars, too.

Too much vibe restriction in this nation. People should let live a bit more.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

344. As soon as I can turn up my speakers to the same volume,

I'll happily let kids scream. However, not 5 years ago my friends and I did just fine w/o screaming just for the record.

I agree that we should live more, but as long as we get nastygrams for music, I'll just have to be a 15yr old scrooge :P

[H2O Man]

166. True.

Laughing children are upsetting to all those who love to be miserable.

[Missy Vixen]

207. H2OMan, we finally disagree

>Laughing children are upsetting to all those who love to be miserable.<

I love children. I love their curiosity, their laughter, and it makes me happy to read them a story or play a game with them. I don't care for high-pitched screaming. I really don't like it when the child is having some kind of issue and a parent is close by, obviously ignoring him or her. I have had many parents tell me over my lifetime that they "tune it out". Fine. I'd like to tune it out as well.

Julie

[H2O Man]

214. Well

we will be having a birthday party here in 24 hours, and there will be numerous children invading this quiet section of earth I have retreated to .... including our swimming pool .... so I may regret saying this .... but the loud noise of little children playing in a swimming pool is, to me, much like the singing frogs and lightening bug shows.

[Horse with no Name]

284. The ONE thing in life that still gives me belly laughs

Is watching kids out-kid each other. The laughing, the screaming, their belly flops and CANNON BALL'S!! in the pool, it's all good.
Nothing is wrong in the world when kids can play like this.

[MonkeyFunk]

311. Nobody here has once argued

against children having fun. Your argument is a total red herring - either kids go entirely unconstrained, or they sit inside quietly.

It's been pointed out to you dozens of times - why do you persist in presenting the problem this way?

[orleans]

3. how rude and obnoxious (and i DON'T MEAN YOU)

i wouldn't have wanted my daughter screaming all the time. the kids in my neighborhood don't do that.

they play, sometimes they yell, call out to each other, laugh. i love hearing the kids playing, or squeals of laughter.

but constant yelling or screaming is unnecessary

it's like letting your dog outside and letting it bark for hours.

unnecessary. rude. obnoxious. and bad neighbor policy. inconsiderate.

[Archae]

7. Thanks.

It's obvious Horse With No Name doesn't live anywhere near kids who scream.
And kids' screaming is very nerve-rattling.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gemini Cat]

184. I don't mind yelling and laughing, but the high pitched

ear drum shattering shrieking is another matter.

[geardaddy]

272. That high-pitched sceaming is what I

like to call "mental floss" :)

[TahitiNut]

8. Agreed. I love the sound of kids playing, even waking to it. It's a happy sound.

Screaming is NOT a "happy sound".

[Horse with no Name]

12. And I have a feeling that ANY noise of screaming or happy play

would annoy the OP.

[Archae]

18. Happy play sounds doesn't bother me.

It's the SCREAMING that does.

[Posteritatis]

44. I get the opposite extreme

The neighborhood I last lived in sucked; the kids were largely unsupervised, had no volume control whatsoever, and didn't give a damn about boundaries as far as yards or even property went. Nobody could leave anything outside unattended for fear that it would get vandalized, and I'm including things like cars and the few well-behaved children on the list. Horrible place, horrible parents.

Nowadays, I'm in a pretty nice suburban neighborhood. There's a ballpark behind our backyard, positioned so that I don't have to worry about stuff being hurled through windows, and with enough Treacherous Terrain (stream, moderately steep, heavily-grown gully that I've still not worked up the nerve to explore, etc) in the way that kids wouldn't get into the backyard even if they could get through the hedges out there.

(Some dumbass would-be car thief was fleeing a cop on foot from a nearby neighborhood a couple years ago and didn't know about the gully. Ploughed right through the hedges, got stuck in the nice evil thorny greenery about ten or fifteen feet down the hill. I loled. But I digress.)

Anyway, I don't mind it much. If I have a headache or something, the occasional kids (or, at this time of year/night, teenagers) screaming, or dogs barking (only field for a decent area, everyone brings their dogs there for runs) bothers me a bit, but I've got headphones and a closable window to deal with that, and most of the time I just don't mind. Generally the kids around here have a decent balance between "should be seen and not heard" (a mindset I despise) and "making as much noise as possible is a good thing" (which I also despise). No complaints about them.

Some of the parents, on the other hand!

Ballfields plus summer equals little-leaguers or their various equivalents in droves. Most evenings in the summer I deal with a few hours of far larger lungs screaming themselves inside out, which is only kind of annoying if I'm not in the mood or if it's too hot to close the windows. Quite a few evenings, though, some soccer-mom type (softball mom? Insert appropriate sport) decides that their kid's team's losing the game was some personal affront or whatever, with the result that a few parents will rather often keep their kids there for after-game practice for stretches of time longer than the game itself, haranguing them the entire time.

Someone screaming contemptuously ("how could you miss that?! You should be ashamed of yourself! That's why your team doesn't win!") at a six or seven or eight-year-old as they force them to stick around until, oh, 9:00pm practicing after their team lost a mid-afternoon game?

Urge to kill sooo much with the rising.

Dunno if I have any particular point here save for the rant, but leaving aside the false dilemmas and other silliness going through a lot of this thread I'll just say that there's something to be said for moderation and at least a shred of discipline or volume control, no matter how old you happen to be. It's perfectly possible to allow the kids to have fun and make noise while also having some respect for one's neighbors.

[zanne]

296. I live next to an elementary school and a public swimming pool.

School is out for the summer starting today. I have two whole days of peace and quiet before the pool opens. Actually, I'm used to hearing LOTS of kids play. It's not so bad.

[havocmom]

208. And parents who allow constant screaming & other constant annoying behaviors are doing kids no favor

Kids need to know there are boundaries. Kids who DO know seem to be happier, possibly because parents pay attention and others find them enjoyable to be around rather than nuisances to be tolerated.

Kids who understand there are boundaries for behavior tend to handle minor adversity better than those who are allowed to do what they damn well please all the time. They do not stay in the terrible twos into adulthood and then wonder why they can't get along and be appreciated.

Teaching kids that there are limits and they can have fun while also recognizing there are other people to consider makes better citizens and more lovable people out of them. Brats do not grow up to be healthy people. Look at the White House if you don't believe me.

[renate]

259. I couldn't agree more

That "what I want to do matters more than what anybody else wants" is a hard attitude to unlearn.

I really do think you're right about looking at the White House. Those people clearly believe they're more important than the rest of us, and above living according to a code of decent behavior.

[dddem]

328. while i don't disagree with you about boundaries,

I think there needs to be a distinction between a swimming pool or playground, and a restaurant or grocery store or library, for instance.

[havocmom]

358. OP said CONSTANT and everyday. That is not NORMAL play noise

When it gets to point of neighbors threatening lawsuits, it is pretty likely it is WAY beyond normal play noise. The kids are trying to get parents' attention and the parents are neglecting them, their needs, their training.

Onus on the parents for not raising kids who understand there are other people in the world. BIG ONUS on the parents for neglecting to the point kids have to go to extreme measures to get the attention and parental involvement kids are entitled to. As the kids grow, the measures the take to get attention can get pretty dangerous. It then becomes more than just an annoying constant noise.

Edited to change wording of first sentence in text.

[Marr]

173. Oh, c'mon.

You've got to recognize that a kid screaming at the top of his lungs all day would get under your skin. It doesn't sound like they're talking about simple playground noise here. The whole neighborhood agrees that the kids are making a nuissance of themselves, and they have every right to complain about it.

My parents wouldn't have let me stand in the backyard and scream all day. If I had, and a neighbor complained, she'd have told me to keep it down. That's totally reasonable- they're not living on the lone prair-ee, y'know. There are others around and you should be considerate.

[phylny]

241. That's really unfair.

You don't know the OP personally, do you?

[Horse with no Name]

277. Then you have missed the deleted thread where he implied he KNEW me

?

[LeighAnn]

27. Yeah, but what are you supposed to do?

If you spank them, your neighbors will call child protective services on you. The only way a person could be heard above all that racket would be to yell louder than the kids, then you're looking at a charge of "emotional abuse". I was taught at school that even yelling at your kids was wrong.

Maybe put 'em on Zoloft or something... that'll zone 'em out.

My dad worked a swing-shift, and the kids in our family learned early on to be quiet so as not to wake up Dad. They didn't have so much child psychology back then, though.

[orleans]

110. of course you don't spank them.

but you could tell your kids if they didn't knock off the screaming they're gonna have to come in the house (and if they're having fun they won't want to have to come in, or if they're in the pool they won't want to have to get out of the pool)

need a reason? tell them screaming hurts your ears. people scream when they're in trouble or something is wrong. other people don't want to hear a bunch of screaming. (i mean, come on--kids know there are basic rules for things. i haven't seen a kid taking their clothes off in the grocery store, or peeing in the middle of target, or running around a store knocking everything over)

it's okay to set rules for kids to follow. just because they're having fun doesn't mean they have to absolutely lose their minds and behave like they are insane.

i have a vague recollection of when i was a kid my mom was trying to get me to "pipe down"--as my dad used to say-- (i must have been shouting or something while i was playing in the backyard) and said "someone is going to think something's wrong" if i kept it up. she might have even said, at one time, she didn't want someone calling the police.

bottom line here--this is where a parent can take the opportunity to act like a grown up and teach a little courtesy, and self discipline, self control. that's not a bad thing for kids to learn.

(i sound like a real pain in the ass disciplinarian parent. i'm so not. i'm a fucking push over. but i do expect my daughter to be polite and considerate of others. maybe this has something to do with teaching manners)

[Matariki]

180. Those are the only options then - beat them, drug them or let them run wild?

oy.

[mondo joe]

210. In my family, we just say "could you turn down the volume a bit please?"

Seems to work.

Sometimes just a facial expression along with a little "knob" motion works.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Yes, of course they should

many will jump into this thread and pretend that screaming as loudly as possible, or sitting in soul-crushing silence, are the only two options. They are simple-minded and wrong.

Children, and the older one here is 11, can and should be taught to moderate their behavior when it becomes a problem.

They can still have plenty of fun, and even make noise, but they can certainly tone it down a little.

My Mom raised four kids and we had a back yard pool. I guarantee that SHE would've toned us down before it became a problem for the neighbors.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. You make some very good points.

Sadly, they will be lost on several people here. Children at play are fine. An occasional scream or shout of delight, while startling, are also fine. Constant, shrill screeching, and, yes, there are many a child that does just that, is not acceptable. To me, it is no different than someone blaring a TV or radio for hours, cutting one's grass at one in the morning (though in the summer heat of the South, it is almost understandable), or sitting in a restaurant talking about the great cock/pussy you had the night before for all the restaurant to hear.

My mother raised four boys; we were also taught appropriate behavior. There are rules, even when playing outside.

[Rosemary2205]

49. My mother used to ground us from the pool when we got screechy.

Well actually, it was my sister who got all screechy. That girl could split railroad ties with that screech. Finally dear mom figured out sis was the one causing all the problems and decided each of the four kids had 15 minutes each hour in the pool. She granted dear sis the very first 15 minutes every hour. So there was the screecher all alone in the pool with no one to fight with. When her time was up all three of the rest of us got into the pool for a full 45 minutes - sharing each other's time. Of course the screecher went all noodly. After 2 hours of that the screecher got the message and toned it down. :)

[Scout]

161. now THERE is some smart, creative parenting! n/t

[DarbyUSMC]

250. You are exactly right.

What is wrong with parents? Screeching is not only annoying, around a pool it's dangerous. Laughing and having fun isn't the same as screeching or screaming. I had heard this had something to do with Marco Polo but even that doesn't have to be screamed out. Nor does it have to be whispered. Geeze Louise. Backyard pools are a miracle. As someone who had to travel twelve miles to swim when I was young, I never pass a house with a pool without thinking how lucky that family is to have it. They probably don't realize it because they are so common now.

My kids had access to our family's pool up behind my cousin's barn and then our own in our yard. Two of the rules in both places: No dunking anyone. No screeching. I think they call it consideration for others, which learned at a young age, oft' times carries over into adulthood.

[Bonobo]

307. MonkeyFunk, buddy, where we grew up, if someone had went to a neighbor

who had a pool and complained that the kids were making too much noise, he would have been told to fuck off at best and punched in the face at worst. You know it.

People were more tolerant then. Or more afraid of each other. Or something. But, no, I don't think you can tell kids in a school playground to not yell, no matter how much it bugs you. Move, or get over it to the poster who brought it up.

[MonkeyFunk]

312. Sorry bonobo, my friend

First, it would never have happened. My mother would've shut us up before it became a problem.

Second, HAD it become a problem, my mother would've apologized to the neighbors and then shut us up. That being said, WE had the pool, so most of the neighborhood kids were in our yard, anyway.

But our next-door neighbor worked nights at the Post Office and was asleep during the day, and my mother always made us aware fo that. I never once felt oppressed by that, but we were taught common courtesy - he's sleeping: try not to wake him up. That doesn't mean we walked around on tippy-toes - it means uncontrolled shrieking wasn't allowed.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what this argument is about. It's not about exuberant kids making noise and the old bitchy neighbors complaining. It's about kids shrieking at the top of their lungs for hours on end, multiple days per week, for years.

There's a difference between kids having fun, and kids creating a disturbance.

[REP]

5. Yes

I'm sure they're will be many posts by people claiming that it's either non-stop screaming or silence with nothing inbetween, but children can play and make noise at a reasonable level. Not all forms of play are appropriate just because a child does it, and it is a parents' repsonsibility to teach children how to behave in the community.

[Captain Angry]

6. I understand your pain.

When I hear children screaming, I always get worried that something's happening. Especially because I never see parents around them these days. You always hear about "helicopter" parents, but I don't see them.

I have to check, every time I hear the screams, to make sure they didn't get hit by a car.

It's very frustrating, but I don't think you'll get anywhere with this one. Crappy parents like one thing worse than being a parent, and that's being asked to be a parent.

[uppityperson]

9. As beauty, screaming is in the ear of the beholder. Except beauty is in the eye

Different people hear loud kids differently. Or loud dogs. Or dirt bikes.

[TahitiNut]

22. Yup. That's why amusement parks are so popular in residential neighborhoods.

Kids (and adults) on those roller coasters make such pleasant sounds.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

26. If I have a headache, my neice screams a lot. If I don't, she is just making noise

[Art_from_Ark]

32. I think the amusement park NIMBY thing has more to do with

huge parking lots, traffic congestion, blight, and the inescapable litter than it does with screaming kids.

[LeighAnn]

34. Like this guy?

[uppityperson]

36. beauty or noise?

:rofl:

[jgraz]

10. I'd also like them to pay for my dinner when they bring their screaming brats to a nice restaurant

Two nights ago, my GF and I went to a nice sushi restaurant. We were seated next to a family of four with a kid who was doing that ultrasonic scream that only toddlers can do. After watching the parents calmly eat their meal while their kid curdled our blood, I finally asked them politely if they wouldn't mind trying to keep their child quiet.

You would have thought I'd asked to have the kid fried in tempura and delivered to me in a bento box. Why the hell is it that some parents think just because they chose to breed that all of us should have to share in their misery?

Either discipline your kid, hire a babysitter or eat at fucking Chuck-E-Cheese.

[fudge stripe cookays]

135. .

:applause:

I think I love you.

[Marrah_G]

142. I never could understand why parents bring small children to nice restaurants

I have 3 children, 13,14, and 16. I have plenty of experience with having to deal with a bunch of toddlers. I never brought them to a nice restaurant. I took some advice from my mom. She said "Never bring them to a place where they cannot behave as children do, otherwise you will have a miserable time scolding them constantly" So I never did. We went to places with crayons for the kids and special kids menus, etc. They were expected to behave but I didn't have to scold them for giggling to loudly.

Now they have grown into polite and respect teenagers and I can take them anywhere. Given the choice though, they still prefer the place with the crayons and crazy straws.

It's all about being able to put your kids first. I am sure those kids would have rather been at chuck-e-cheese.

[knitter4democracy]

148. Oh man. There's no way I'd let my kids do that.

If they get loud in a restaurant, they get a time out in the car. We eat in shifts if we need to with one taking one or both kids out and then switching with the other. Not fun, but if we're travelling, that's the best option sometimes.

There's no freakin' way I'd let my kids get away with that. Ignoring a screeching toddler is fine if you're in your own home, but it's really not okay out in public.

[EnviroBat]

151. Can I just say "Thank You". I wish all parents would just have the common sense you do.

I don' thave any kids myself, but I really appreciate when parents take the noise outside while folks is trying to eat.

[knitter4democracy]

302. It's purely selfish, I assure you.

I can't eat when they're like that, and I want to eat, too. So, Hubby usually takes them out first, and if that doesn't work, I take them out while he eats (we don't need to much anymore, since the kids are older, but it still happens sometimes).

[MonkeyFunk]

313. Good for you

Those of us who think parents have a responsibility to keep their kids in line aren't heartless. We symptathize and know how difficult parenting can be.

Making an effort to alleviate the problem goes a long way. I have ultimate sympathy for any parent who tries to enjoy a trip out and has it messed up by their kids, as long as they try to deal with it.

It's only when they believe THEIR night out supercedes MY night out that I get angry.

[knitter4democracy]

329. That I can understand.

"It's only when they believe THEIR night out supercedes MY night out that I get angry."

That makes total sense. It's the whole your-right-to-hit-ends-at-my-face thing.

I hate grocery shopping with the kids. The entire place is designed to make people want to buy stuff they don't need or even want, and kids are really susceptible to that influence. So, mine want everything they see, and it gets hard to just get what we need. I always say something encouraging to moms shopping with their kids when the kids get screechy or whiny because I know how hard that one is. You need the food (that's why you're there), and you need it right then, but you have a kid in meltdown. Very hard.

[msanthrope]

170. As a parent who does the same thing, I thank you....

Our daughter knows "restaurant manners." When she can't behave, she has to leave.

Now, 30 years ago, my parents would have simply sent their offending child out to the car, alone. Can't do that now....parents have to eat in shifts.

[Clark2008]

156. Maybe your staring annoyed the hell out of them.

:shrug:

I don't see why we all can't cut each other some slack. These threads are more annoying than any toddler screaming. Holier-than-thou crabs.

[jgraz]

176. Then they were extremely annoyed because half the restaurant was staring

I don't know why restaurant managers don't handle these sorts of situations, but they usually just let their customers suffer.

[MonkeyFunk]

219. You're wrong

we shouldn't have to suffer because you didn't use a condom.

They're YOUR kids - they're YOUR problem. Why do you think having operational gonads entitles you to special treatment?

[phylny]

249. Um, what about ovaries?

Is there some sort of restaurant discount that I've been missing? Do I get a two for one because I have TWO ovaries?

Inquring minds want to know.

[MonkeyFunk]

252. look up the definition

of "gonads"

[phylny]

248. Choose to breed.

Niiice.

[RamboLiberal]

14. Video and audio of these kids screaming can be heard here

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=3301682&page=2

It was quite a few neighbors complaining.

I have mixed feelings on this one. I have a feeling it's mostly the 5 year old who's causing the big problem. I would think the 11 year old and the parents should try to control the 5 year old if it's all the time and disturbing neighbors.

I know some kids screams are like nails on a chalkboard and if it's constant it can grate on adult nerves. And too many parents never quiet their kids down. I don't think you have to be constantly screaming to be having fun playing.

I think there's some kids lacking discipline here and maybe some neighbors who might need a tad more tolerance.

[knitter4democracy]

152. Those girls are too loud.

My seven year old has a ear-splitting scream. She learned it at school with her other girlfriends. They all do it. I am constantly working on her to only use it in times of trouble--blood or broken bone is the rule. If she did that all day long outside, I'd go nuts long before my neighbors would. She'd be stuck inside all day if she did that.

Our neighbors have a trampoline and often have friends over. They're louder than mine are and older, but it's still not that bad.

[Bluerthanblue]

179. I read that the other neighbor who is in their 70's

wasn't part of the complainers.

I think we as a nation have become pretty intolerant- and grouchy. I believe it is 'trickle down' from the potus- it began in earnest with the selection, and has grown worse every day since.

The sense of entitlement- the idea that our excrement doesn't have any odor- or that our 'mistakes' or 'errors' are reasonable, while anyone elses is actionable.

Yeah, there are times when kids step over boundaries, (if mine are any indication, this is a daily occurrence) but this is not only silly, it is shallow.

We probably wouldn't like hearing the sounds that fill the air in Baghdad,Dar four, or the Gaza strip-
:shrug:


blu

(spelling edit)

[Silent3]

226. I'm not sure what I'm missing...

...but I can't find video or audio at that link. I'm sure it's there (or at least had been there) because the comments on that web site for the story have people talking about it, but damned if I can spot where to click for it.

Can you help me out here?

[Silent3]

243. Never mind, I found the video.

And having heard that recording, I'd call that pretty obnoxious and unnecessary noise. It's not something I'd raise a stink about if it were an occasional outburst, but I think the whole point here is that the noise those girls were making went on loud enough and long enough frequently enough that at least half of dozen neighbors, who seemed like reasonable people to me, we're genuinely upset by the disturbance.

The kids parents, on the other hand, seemed to suffer a lot from the "kids will be kids" syndrome, dully and stupidly incapable of dealing with matters of degree.

[Heidi]

327. I couldn't find the video after going to the link upthread.

Am I doing something wrong? :shrug:

[Silent3]

339. There's a general "VIDEO PLAYER"...

...along the right side of the web page, which probably won't be showing the video associated with the article. You have to scroll through the choices or click "MORE VIDEOS" to find the video that goes with the article.

That threw me off too. I was expected the correct video to simply be on display within the article, not a buried choice inside something I was ignoring because it looked like an advertisement of some sort outside of the article to me.

[jobycom]

20. Should parents of silent children be held responsible?

Can we sue all those parents who raised their kids to sit silently rather than shouting out in protest when our nation invaded an innocent country and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent people?

The first step in forcing kids to conform is to force them to be quiet, to teach them that it is better to not annoy people than to be heard. That's the problem with this damned nation. Not enough kids screaming.

[Horse with no Name]

25. Hear Hear

:applause:
My kids knew and my grandchild knows what "indoor" and "outdoor" voices are.
It's a sad state of affairs when people want to stifle the outdoor voices.

[orleans]

114. here's the problem with teaching "indoor" and "outdoor" voices

what i've noticed is that some kids are sooo very disciplined with using "indoor" voice that they are UNABLE to call out, shout, yell inside a building even when they are PERFORMING IN A PLAY!

it's like pulling hens teeth to get them to PRETEND they are outside when the script calls for them to say something loudly. half the time i just can't get them to do it! that "indoor voice" idea gets too ingrained in some kids.

[Silent3]

247. I grew up learning that distinction too...

...except the "outdoor voice" was not unlimited, just louder than indoor. That worked well enough for me, and I certainly don't recall feeling particularly stifled.

For the other poster... I did a little theater in high school, and public speaking, and I had no difficulty whatsoever raising my voice to whatever level of volume was required. :)

[MonkeyFunk]

31. That's the dumbest thought on this subject yet...

Good lord, if you don't let the hellions run amok all day, you're raising good little sheeple?

How dumb. Teaching basic respect to children isn't dangerous to democracy.

[jobycom]

45. The OP was talking about kids playing in a backyard and a park

Isn't that where kids are supposed to play?

[MonkeyFunk]

55. Yes

but if they're disturbing the neighbors for years on end, the parents have a duty to get them to keep it down. It's no different than if my dog barks all day and annoys the neighbor - and these kids are smarter than my dog.

[jobycom]

57. I had a neighbor who was disturbed by my John Kerry bumpersticker

Should I have taken off the sticker to make him happy? People can't control what their neighbors think.

[MonkeyFunk]

59. Nope

but surely you don't compare that to sound?

You haven't made an argument here yet that wasn't laughable.

[jobycom]

63. You haven't made a point worth arguing with.

Kids are loud. Deal with it. Catering to the whims of uptight neighbors in need of more fiber in their diet is not a good enough excuse to tell children that they have to use inside voices while playing in their back yard, or in the neighborhood park.

If we're talking about kids running down the aisles of movie theaters screaming out "Bruce Willis is really dead!" you've got an argument. But that's not what the OP was about.

[MonkeyFunk]

65. The OP

is about a group of neighbors who have been bothered for years by these children.

Children can play and have fun and NOT screech as loudly as they can. I honestly don't understand people who fail to see that - and I sure hope I never live next to their children.

If your neighbor's dog barked all day long would you just let it go for years before doing something?

The children can learn to tone it down without "breaking their spirits".

[jobycom]

69. The OP

is about a group of neighbors complaining about kids in their own back yard. The neighbors bother me more than the kids.

As for the personal question, my neighbor's dog does bark all day long, and has for years. He's a very sweet dog, and I talk to him through the fence, and I haven't called the cops on him once about it, because it's his back yard, his dog, and it's none of my business.

[orleans]

121. do you live in a town with no noise ordinance? i don't.

and when my neighbors leave their dog out for hours on cold winter nights and the poor thing barks for one hour, then two, i call the police so they can tell these assholes to bring their poor dog in the house so it doesn't freeze to death--and they do it over the guise of the noise ordinance.

(of course you mentioned your neighbor's dog barking in the day--so i guess my comparison was a bit unfair)

but as for what you said about kids--i have managed to teach my daughter manners, to be considerate of other people including our neighbors--who we are friends with--(except for the one who leaves the dog out on freezing nights)--and i have also taught her to speak up, question authority, and become an active participant in the political system of this nation.

you don't have to scream your fucking head off as a kid--with a piss on everyone else attitude or without consideration of others--in order to be a liberal or a radical.

did you?

[Mythsaje]

70. These kids have been screaming like this for YEARS?

In the middle of the day? For years?

If it's that bad, how does it not bother the parents, who are more than likely CLOSER to it than the neighbors?

Are the parents hearing impaired? Are the children?

[MonkeyFunk]

77. Yes

news accounts say three years.

I don't think they're hearing-impaired. I just think they're selfish fucks who think their precious hottentots shouldn't ever have to consider somebody else.

[Mythsaje]

87. I'm just left wondering why, if it's so bad, it doesn't bother the parents.

It would sure bother ME.

[MonkeyFunk]

88. The same reason

the child screaming in the restaurant 20 feet away from me drives me nuts, but doesn't seem to have any effect on the parents.

[Mythsaje]

92. Doesn't SEEM?

I think that's an assumption on your part.

When your kid screams, you not only hear it, you FEEL it. To resist it takes just about every ounce of strength in your body and mind.

It's an instinctive imperative.

[MonkeyFunk]

96. I can assure from my own experience

that parents are able to tune it out far moreso than I can. Maybe they're just inured to it. Maybe they're just selfish dicks. But the phenonemon is certainly real.

[Mythsaje]

100. Or maybe they're just trying to get through the meal.

It's rarely a pleasant experience when a child goes ballistic in public. Most parents just grit their teeth and try to deal with it as best they can. Short of hauling a kid out of the chair by its ear (as my own father would have done) and hauling them outside for a good thrashing, I'm not sure what a parent can do in this day and age but deal with it the best they can.

Toddlers aren't, by nature, particularly cooperative except in very unique circumstances.

[MonkeyFunk]

105. are you serious?

who's suggesting beating them?

But yes, the right thing to do is to take them outside. Why on earth should your screaming child be allowed to ruin MY night out? It's YOUR child - deal with it in public, or stay home.

The notion that the world owes parents some extraspecial consideration is just nonsense.

[Mythsaje]

113. Maybe it's me, but I sense a distinct hostility towards children in general

from a lot of people here, unless, of course, those children are perfect little robots that don't act out anywhere anyone can see them.

That's not reality. That's Stepford.

[mondo joe]

154. I sense a distinct hostility to having to teach respect or consideration of others.

Just saying.

[Bluerthanblue]

188. it's not you

Mythsaje-

and it's not new-

:shrug:

[Clark2008]

162. But the flip side to that is that your rights are no better than

the parents rights to take their children for a night out, as well.

While I can agree that parents should, well, parent more responsibly, you still don't have any more rights to have your night out than they do.

This is what I find annoying about these threads. It's all about the rights of the childless and not the parents.

Actually, parents probably deserve a night out with the kids more than you do. They work harder. :P

[Flying Dream Blues]

175. Well, they have rights to go out, but not to disturb everyone else!

[Marrah_G]

202. Yes but if you have young children then take them to a kids restaurant

Otherwise they will have a miserable, cranky or very bored time (even if behaved). If you must eat at a nice restaurant, then please find a sitter.

I had 3 children close in age so I am not anti-child. But I do think that as a parent you must put your own wants aside and realize that forcing a child to eat in a nice restaurant tends to ruin your meal, the child's meal and the other diners meal.

For goodness sake, just take them to a place with crayons and a fun kids menu and they will be much happier....and so will you.

[mondo joe]

206. I don't see this as a dilema. My kids have always gone out to nice restaurants.

They are also always expected to behave appropriately.

If it seems they won't be able to manage that, we'd instead go to a more kid-friendly restaurant.

[MonkeyFunk]

222. Actually

they do not have a right to disrupt my meal. I do have a right to enjoy my meal.

I can't sit in a restaurant and blow an airhorn all evening - I'd be arrested or at least kicked out. Why? Because I don't have a right to ruin everybody else's experience. It's pretty simple.

[renate]

269. excellent example

I've got kids and of course they make noise sometimes, but sometimes that noise is okay and sometimes it's not. When they were too young to know the difference, it was my job to tell them, both so they'd learn and because it's not okay for me to blithely allow them to ruin other people's meals just so I don't have to deal with discipline.

I love your comparison of kids shrieking in a restaurant to you sitting there blowing an airhorn :rofl: . I think an occasional lapse on a kid's part is understandable and not a big deal--dealing with the annoyances that other people create is part of living in society--but if it continues and the parents don't even try to do anything about it, that's just rude.

[MonkeyFunk]

314. Of course it's understandable

and us curmudgeons aren't going off at the first sound they make.

it's only when it becomes bothersome - and granted, that line is drawn differently for each person - that it becomes an issue for us.

If you make an effort, as a parent, to address the problem, then you have my most sincere gratitude and sympathy when dealing with this. It's the parents who ignore the problem altogether that get my wrath.

[Behind the Aegis]

97. "Seem" would imply "an assumption."

There are people who do ignore their child's screams. Like any common noise, smell, or sight, a common occurrence can lead to a "blind eye."

[Mythsaje]

103. I'm not sure how...

But, yeah, there are a few who seem to manage.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. It is not difficult.

Ever been in a car with a buddy and heard an odd "clicking" sound? When you mention it to your buddy, s/he looks at you like you are on crack? The sound has become "background noise" and doesn't register. It is a psychological feature. It is similar to African-Americans who can hear "nigger" at 40 paces. Or the gay person who can hear "fag" in a crowded room. It is also the same feature that allows us to hear our name upon mention, whether about us or not. Therefore, it is not a stretch to imagine there are parents who are "immune" to the on-going screams of their children. They will know a "panic" scream; they will know a "scared" scream; but, a "I am just being a screamer to be a screamer" scream, well, that gets "drowned out."

[Mythsaje]

115. Uh...no.

The screams of my children cut through EVERYTHING. I can't imagine being able to block them out.

[Behind the Aegis]

119. That is ***your*** personal experience.

So, because you can hear the screams of your children, despite the duration, all parents are to be held to your standard? Would you drown your children because "G-d told you so?" I am going to guess the answer is a resounding "NO!" And yet, we see that in our country. Do you beat your children? Again, I am guessing "NO FUCKING WAY!" is the answer; yet, it happens here. So, this begs the question: why is it so difficult for you to believe that there are parents that do turn a "deaf ear" toward their children?

[Mythsaje]

123. I'm sure it happens...

I don't understand it. And I'm well aware that it's instinctive and biological. People that act like that are biologically flawed, from what I understand of it.

[Behind the Aegis]

128. It's not a "biological flaw."

It is a psychological block. You don't have to understand it; irrelevant. It is no different than when my baby finches scream and scream and the parents do nothing. The babies aren't hungry or in jeopardy, they are just screaming. I would hope that humans are more evolutionarily evolved to stop "screaming for the sake of screaming."

[Behind the Aegis]

61. That doesn't make sense in relation to this discussion.

There is nothing in the piece, as far as I can tell, that is about "controlling" thought, but rather it is about controlling actions. And, no, it is not unreasonable to request certain actions be controlled.

[jobycom]

67. Wrong. The piece is about forcing kids to conform to someone else's standard.

The neighbor says they are too loud, so they must shut up in their own back yard. Who even knows how sane the neighbor is? You've had bad neighbors, no doubt, who would complain about anything and everything.

[MonkeyFunk]

71. You're being ridiculous...

decibel levels can be measured - outrage over a bumpersticker can not.

All towns have noise ordinances, and they use decibel levels to define offenses.

Again, you fail to make an argument that isn't laughable.

[Mythsaje]

73. Again, this has been going on for years?

Are these kids violating a noise ordinance? What if they're not? Are they going to lobby the city council to MAKE it against the law for these kids to scream in their own backyard?

That should be fun. Like kicking puppies.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. So, when did common courtesy become passe?

Day in and day out screaming, is not an occasional outburst of excitement. It is not any different than the parents that let their children scream and cry in restaurants, then when asked to quiet their children, act as if they have been asked to slit the child's throat.

[Mythsaje]

84. Most parents are mortified when their kids act like that in public.

I don't let my pomeranian stand outside and bark at the neighbors incessantly, but THEY seem to find it amusing and talk back at him, KNOWING it just makes him bark more frantically.

Then again, I don't stress when their friends, or their kids' friends, park in front of my house and party until three in the morning.

If you live in a neighborhood with kids, you learn to adapt to the noise, one way or another. I don't get adults who forget what it's like to be a kid and want to bully their parents into bullying them.

Some people just creep me out.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. No room for common courtesy it would seem.

Your remarks are just sad. Given this particular situation, we are not discussing a random or singular event. It is an almost daily occurrence. So, if your neighbors decided to party until 3am every (or most every night) for a few weeks, that wouldn't disturb you?

I remember quite well what it was to be a child. I also remember that I was not allowed to scream like a wounded wildebeest for hours, even in my own backyard. I also remember living near a multitude of children of whom I never heard, but the neighbors to the left of my apartment were evicted for constant loud noise (during the day, no less) and were adults.

What "creeps me out" are people who willing excuse obnoxious behavior because it is "just kids being kids." It is that same mentality that allows (child) bullies to beat up "faggots" and "pitch temper tantrums" when they don't get their way.

[Mythsaje]

94. Oh, come on.

Being noisy is NOT the same thing as being a bully, and I, as a former victim of bullying, resent the fuck out of the implication that it is. Playing loudly, even screaming like a fucking wildebeast, IS being a normal kid.

[MonkeyFunk]

99. and telling your hellions

to keep it down, they're disturbing the neighbors, SHOULD be normal behavior for a parent.

[Mythsaje]

101. Some of this smells like a witch hunt...

And, as I notice, most of the people on the "get 'em" side of this seem not to be parents themselves.

Curious, that.

[MonkeyFunk]

107. doesn't matter one whit

being able and willing to reproduce doesn't mean the world bows down to you.

And, as I notice, most of the people on the "let the kids scream" seem to be parents themselves - probably rotten ones.

Curious, that.

[Mythsaje]

116. "Probably rotten ones."

Yeah, and by your tone, you're the kind of person who'd pinch a toddler who was annoying you just because you could.

Same logic applies.

[MonkeyFunk]

223. Nope

I wouldn't pinch a child. That's absurd.

but if you introduce your child to a situation he is unable to cope with, and refuse to deal with it, you are a bad parent.

[mondo joe]

160. Please note, not all parents are okay with this. My kids would never be permitted

to scream at the top of their lungs repeatedly.

[Marrah_G]

203. Mine would find themselved bound, gagged and locked in a damn closet

j/k

Seriously though, I despise screaming for the sake of screaming and would never tolerate it, not just for the sanity of the neighborhood, but also my own.

[fishnfla]

187. "probably rotten ones"

WTF, buddy?

[MonkeyFunk]

225. Any parent

who puts his child in a situation where the child can't cope, and then does nothing to remedy the situation, is a rotten parent.

[Behind the Aegis]

111. Absurd.

Not being a parent doesn't mean you are out to "get'em." But it is "interesting" that those who are parents seem not to be bothered by the situation. Perhaps they have learned to "drown out" certain things. :shrug:

[Mythsaje]

118. Or maybe I once knew a parent

who told his eight year old that he was supposed to act like a boy, not a monkey, apparently being unaware that acting like a monkey IS part of being a boy. Of course, he was a total control freak who would stand over his child and tell him how to play with his toys. He was also stepfather to MY children for four years.

Control freaks piss me off.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Or maybe...

...you just can't realize that some behaviors, no matter the perpetrator, are unacceptable!

Control freaks piss me off too, almost as much as those who are unwilling to take action when it is appropriate because they believe the idiotic phrase "boys will be boys."

[Mythsaje]

124. I remember when my oldest was born

and his godmother stood next to me at the hospital window as tears flowed down my face.

She said, "remember this moment when he breaks a window with a baseball" and, you know, I've never forgotten it. I remember when his mother told me he gave the cat a haircut and I couldn't help thinking, damn, that took serious determination. I was at once both appalled and

Then again, I still remember what it was like to be a kid and at the mercy of damn near everyone else on the planet. It sucked almost as much as having a day job and paying taxes as an adult. I don't think most adults remember that little fact.

Boys WILL be boys. But, in my mind, that involves stuffing a frog in their pocket, or a handful of grasshoppers, or a lizard, and carrying it inside to scare the hell out of their mother. It DOESN'T mean picking on people weaker than themselves, or deliberately hurting anything at all. Climbing trees, building ramps to jump their bikes, and ordinary, foolish, nothing can hurt me, behaviors are fairly ordinary in my book.

[Behind the Aegis]

132. Step outside of yourself.

Children aren't the enemy. You are trying to make this thread out as if they are because there are those of us who don't wish to be subjected to hours and hours of screams.

You say "boys will be boys" and then explain what it is to you. That is fine. That is your experience. Mine: 5th grade: "I should blow your fucking face off 'cuz you killed Jesus! You G-damn kike!" (Keep in mind, I had no idea what a "kike" was, much less why he thought I killed Jesus.) From sixth grade on...."fag", "boy cunt", "do you fuck your daddy?", "get AIDS, you faggot!", "are you looking at my cock?" (usually from someone that would have to PAY for someone to look at his cock), and "I was afraid you were going to be queer. Don't tell the other family members." But, as you say, "boys will boys." I guess that explains the scar on my wrist.

I will say that I don't care for children. It is the reason I don't have them. Actually, the better reason is that I would never get a moments rest! I would ALWAYS worry something would happen to them. I have a partner, a dog, a cat, and 32 birds, never does my head lay to my pillow that I don't pray they will be well! My partner can care for himself, for the most part (he is really nice, I am the FUCKING BITCH!), but my pets, they rely on me, as would a child. So, I guess I don't really dislike children, I just tell myself that because I don't know I could protect them to my best ability. However, I would make sure they understood the rights of others are just as important as their own, and just as deserving of respect!

[Mythsaje]

138. That's not my experience, that's my philosophy.

THAT'S what "boys will be boys" should mean. Not being called a "fairy" or "queer" on the playground by the boys or "retread" by the girls just because I was reading college level in grade school. You think you have to be gay to be targeted? Or Jewish? Try being socially awkward and intellectually advanced. And smaller than average. That's all it takes.

No one ever said "boys will be boys" to me. My dad wondered why I didn't fight back, not realizing the little fuckers hunted in packs. My stepmother wondered why I couldn't "just get along." The teachers insisted on punishing me equally with my tormenters and only the school principal seemed to have a clue.

I didn't even know what they MEANT by "fairy." To me it was a small winged being of myth and legend. I didn't even know what gay was until I was in junior high and I NEVER got why some people got so twisted up about it.

I can TELL you don't care for children. But you want to know something about kids? I was talking to my father about the stolen elections and the methods used to steal votes from minority voters. My oldest, who was twelve at the time, was in the back seat.

He asked me, "why would they do that?"

I replied, "because they wanted to win."

His response? "That's not fair."

He has his issues, I'll give you that. But he has my innate sense of fairness, which counters my contrary nature. His mother's a lot colder and harder than he is, or I am. That colors his perceptions in a lot of ways. But he has a strong sense of right and wrong and he's smart as hell.

They're not all the little bastards that tormented you, or me.

[Clark2008]

169. LOL!! My boy wouldn't stuff his pockets full of little creatures

to scare me! I'd laugh it off. All my kids' friends think I'm the coolest Mom because I pick up the "yucky" stuff and show it to THEM. :rofl:

I guess that's why I'm always the neighborhood's "Kool-Aid Mom," the place where EVERYBODY wants to hang out and play.

:hi:

But, thanks for your defense of children on this thread. I can understand that those little girls need to tone it down some, but I also think the neighbors are being uptight fools. There should be a happy medium somewhere and I hope the judge makes them ALL work together to find one.

[Silent3]

251. According to the story...

...neighbors had been complaining for as long as THREE YEARS before this ended up in court. The noise-making family apparently responded to none of this. I think that's plenty of patience being shown on the part of the neighbors.

Only now, AFTER this ended up in court, did you hear the father show a glimmer of recognition that maybe there's a problem here that he should deal with.

[Scout]

186. "Boys WILL be boys."

yeah, and some of them will be ASSHOLES if their parents don't teach them how to behave.

[mwb970]

183. Parents and non-parents have a *completely* different attitude.

Non-parents say things like "Why don't they just keep them quiet?" or "Why don't they just MAKE them behave?". Parents know how difficult this is.

[mondo joe]

227. Wait a minute. I'm a parent of 2 kids. I don't want them screaming in the back yard

any more than anyone else does.

I don't have much of a problem with keeping their volume at a reasonable level.

[Clark2008]

164. Calling children hellions is more disturbing to me than any noise.

[MonkeyFunk]

229. Why?

what do you think it means?

[Behind the Aegis]

104. It is the same.

Being noisy constantly is no different than being a bully. Screaming and screeching without care bares little difference than someone who bullies. Neither party is concerned about the well-being of the affected party only about their selfish desires. As a former victim of bullying, as well, I resent the fuck out of those who are only concerned with their own issues and not those whom they may affect.

Playing loudly and screaming like a wounded wildebeest is part of being a normal kid, as long as it is not an on-going occurrence! If we expect people to be a part of a functional society, then we must instill that belief into children; which includes being understanding of the concerns of others.

[Mythsaje]

112. Oh, bullshit.

I can accept a lot of things, but that premise is pure crap.

It's about kids being loud. I wasn't a loud kid very often, but I got the crap beat out of me when I stepped over the line. Taught me real quick. Maybe THAT'S what these parents should do, eh? That'll keep the little fuckers in line.

Mustn't annoy the neighbors. Make us look bad. Stupid little shithead.

Course, my old man was more worried about me bothering HIM. He couldn't give a fuck about the neighbors. That was more my stepmom's concern.

These kids aren't BULLYING anyone. They're out being kids. If their parents don't consider it an issue, that's between THEM and their neighbors. And of course the law's going to get dragged into it, because that's how modern Americans deal with things. With lawyers and cops and enforced regulation at gunpoint.

I can't help but think there's something beneath the surface of the interactions of the adults involved in this. Someone's taken a misstep or two. Maybe the first people who complained were obnoxious about it. Wouldn't be the first time that happened.

[Behind the Aegis]

117. Not bullshit.

I didn't say it was the same as bullying but along the same lines in that the rights of others need not be respected.

This is not about you being abused as a child. This is not about anyone saying these children should be beaten (not one person has suggested that course of action, so I believe this line of thought is called a "strawman.") It isn't even about "pleasing the neighbors." It is about being respectful of others, whether you can see them or not.

Just because the parents don't consider it an issue, doesn't mean it isn't. The rest of your post indicates that your reactions are based on some prior trauma.

Are you a parent?

On edit: I see from another post you are a parent. So, if my partner and I, living next to you, decide to fuck each others brains out, during the day, sometimes inviting friends to do the same, for long periods of time, you'd have no problem with that? Keep in mind, your children can't see the sex acts, they only hear..."FUCK ME!" "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! THAT FEELS SOOOOOOO GOOD!" "NOT IN ME, ON ME!" That work for you?

[Mythsaje]

122. Yes, I'm a parent.

And my kids are decent, respectful people. Most of the time. Of course, I can take only partial credit for that, since their mother did everything she could to keep them away from me for six years. Thankfully our philosophy isn't all that different, all in all, and they're allowed a certain amount of self-expression regardless of what other people might think.

I have to laugh at people who don't have kids who assume they know all about raising them and keeping them in line when they know nothing of the sort. Because our kids can make life difficult for people who don't have, or don't want, children, they have every right to dictate not only THEIR behavior, but ours as parents. As if they have some innate arcane knowledge about something that's totally beyond their experience.

And people wonder why some of us get irate about it. You don't know what it's like to have your ordinarily well-behaved child suddenly go apeshit at a restaurant because he wanted pop instead of milk and figures you'll just capitulate because you don't want him causing a scene. And if you think they don't operate that way, you're mistaken. Sometimes they do.

I'm very considerate of other people as a general rule, but I don't like being prodded. Prod me and I get my back up and then you'll NEVER move me without resorting to physical force. I don't push because I had to tolerate it way too much as a child. I don't like pushy people. They tend to piss me off and that's never a good thing.

[Behind the Aegis]

126. I edited to say I knew you were a parent. You didn't answer my question.

Kudos for having well-behaved children. I, too, believe, there are times when, "children will be children." That goes without saying, or at least should.

I have to laugh at people that assume people without children have not had the experience of raising them or keep them in line. My partner and I chose not to have children, but I helped raise my two youngest brothers, including discipline. It is no different with my nephews and nieces. It isn't about your children making my life difficult and me thinking I have the right to dictate their behavior; it is about responsibility.

Are you gay? If not, then I am certain you have never spoken about those issues, as you wouldn't "understand." Are you Jewish? If not, then please don't ever let me see a post from you about Jewish issues; as you would not "understand."

As for having a child go 'apeshit' because they didn't get their way; HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! THAT is being a child! When it becomes the parents' issue is when they do NOTHING about the hour long temper-tantrum!

As for your last paragraph, that is about personal pride. That is your issue.

[Mythsaje]

137. I realize that spinelessness is a recognized "liberal" trait

and I'm betraying the code by refusing to accept it, but, hey, I fought hard to find my spine and I'm not giving it up for anyone. Maybe if our elected representatives had a similar issues, they wouldn't be lying on their backs showing their bellies to the Repugs every time we turn around, eh?

And I hate to tell you this, but your siblings and your nieces and nephews are NOT the same thing. I know it feels that way, but it's simply not. You have a child of your own and legally and psychologically assume full responsibility for that child, it's a whole new ball game. Any responsibility you assumed at any point in time was temporary. Even when I was forced out of my children's lives, I STILL retained that responsibility, which I resumed immediately upon getting back in contact. The financial responsibility never lapsed.

And it's funny you brought up the other thing. I considered mentioning it and decided it was better left alone. I HAVE been told because I don't have ovaries or am not gay, that I don't have any business discussing certain things. And you know what? I don't anymore. Not here I don't. With people I know personally, I might, but, oddly enough, that doesn't generate the kind of nastiness it does here.

I realize there's a strong compulsion to jump in line with whatever everybody thinks (in all things except potential presidential candidate, that is) but it's just not in me to do so. I'm contrary that way. I don't like the idea of strong-arming people to justify someone else's idea of what they should and should not be doing unless it DIRECTLY affects the health and well-being of other people.

There are a lot of people here who are no better in that respect than the Republicans. Nobody minds unless it's THEIR ox being gored. Everyone wants to dictate to someone and, in my mind, that isn't any better.

Now it's possible that these parents are being irresponsible in this, but, then again, I also think it's likely that the neighbors haven't approached the situation in the right way. A lot of crap might have been averted by stopping by with a six-pack of beer, a bottle of wine, or a nice pie and sitting down for a little chat.

Instead it's turned into a power struggle. Fucking brilliant. Nothing like a little social ineptitude combined with legal authority to make everything work out for the best. Not.

[mondo joe]

194. Talk about social ineptitude. Your entire position has been that kids shouldn't

have to be considerate of others.

What do you think that teaches them to be? Inconsiderate adults.

[Mythsaje]

224. Assholes deserve little consideration...

Decent folk do.

How's that?

[mondo joe]

260. Well, when you decide that anyone who wants consideration is an "asshole" it's

not a good start.

[Mythsaje]

263. Depends on their attitude.

"Could you ask your kids to tone it down"

compared to

"Shut those damn kids up, will you!?"

The first will probably achieve the desired result.

The second will not. And, if someone came at me with the second one first, the former would have FAR less effect than one might hope in the future.

[Missy Vixen]

216. Evidently, you've never met a parent who takes any perceived

criticism of their little darling with immediate and virulent negative action, either.

>sitting down for a little chat<

We have a neighbor two doors down that we have had significant problems with over their youngest child. The child is destructive. We are not the only ones in the neighborhood that have had problems with this young man. Any attempt to speak to his parents on the issue (the latest was the broken passenger side window of my vehicle -- it seems a baseball went through it, witnessed by another neighbor,) brings screaming, threats, and general nastiness.

Sorry, not all parents are reasonable.

I might also mention that I'm a former nanny. I know enough about dealing with kids that I chose not to have any of my own.

Julie

[Marrah_G]

292. I agree with what you say but want to add one thing

Parents should understand that thier children are indeed children and that it is very difficult for a 3 or 4 year old to sit in a restaurant quietly for a long time. They just aren't wired that way. Sometimes the better choice is to teach them manners in a more child friendly enviroment and as they grow and can sit in one place quietly for a longer time you can start bringing them to nicer places. It's all about knowing your kids and what they can handle.

To many times I have seen parent putting themselves and there wants in front of their kids. If you truly want to have a good time as a family that means going someplace the kids can enjoy also.

It's the same with movies. I never understood parents taking kids to see very adult movies that will obviously be boring to the child when say "shrek" is playing in the next theatre. Family time should be about enjoying times together.

[MonkeyFunk]

315. That's it exactly

there are enough places in our society that cater to young children, and make it an enjoyable experience for them.

Taking your child to a four-star restaurat for a 2-hour meal is just stupid, and you shouldn't be surprised when the OTHER people spending a few hundred bucks complain about having THEIR evening ruined.

[Mythsaje]

323. Maybe someone willing to spend a few hundred bucks

for a meal, considering that it could feed an African village for a month, DESERVES to have their evening ruined.

Just a thought.

[Silent3]

341. So, you're trying to defend an pretty indefensible position...

...by turning everyone who eats at an expensive restaurant into a villain deserving of punishment, with obnoxious children cast as instruments of justice?

That's grasping at straws, to say the least.

[Mythsaje]

347. Karma's a bitch...

And anything might be its instrument.

I don't know WHY parents would bring young children to such restaurants, personally. Sounds like a lot of hassle for little reward.

Maybe it IS karma.

Oh, I'm quite happy to defend an indefensible position if it irritates people who enjoy being irritated. I consider it a public service.

[Silent3]

348. Karma is, or... ?

Well, never mind. :)

[mondo joe]

359. Maybe these screaming kids being surrounded by 6 neiighbors willing to sue them is Karma.

Y'know.

[MonkeyFunk]

350. What a ridiculous argument

People deserve to have their night out ruined by somebody else's kids because YOU don't approve of how they spend their money? The kids' parents are spending that money, too.

What an assholish position to take.

[orleans]

130. loved the "on edit" section! lol! and good point! (of course i'm speaking

as a parent who wouldn't tolorate that constant screaming crap)

[Behind the Aegis]

134. I guess you hate GAYS!

Why do you hate us?! Why can't we just be "us?" Why can't we just enjoy a hot, fat, long cock? Are you a prude?! Did you buy your sheets at the KKK-Mart?

:evilgrin:

(Please tell me you know I was 'joshing' you?)

[orleans]

189. lol! n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

195. no, it is NOT an "almost daily occurrence" ! !! not

according to the articles-

This happens 2-3 times WEEKLY (per the complaining couple!) and doesn't occur after 9pm-
This is FAR different than partying until 3am every night for weeks.

Yes, i have to agree all children need to be encouraged to keep their voices down or to stop and listen to how loud they are (my niece had a hard time understanding how her voice sounded to others when she was playing, until she saw a video one day).

But the bullshit about 'screaming all day for years' is as disingenuous as *'s "we knew that SH had the POTENTIAL to posses WMD's" I've bolded the key word-

Exaggeration and manipulating fact makes me distrust the entire premise of the complainers.

The kids wouldn't have any vocal chords left if they were screaming non stop for a week never mind non-stop for a years-

Perhaps we need to stop the propaganda- and look at the facts.

How many weeks a year do kids swim in backyard pools in Long Island NY????

edited to add this:

Angie Kostakis insists she and her husband don't hate children - and often have kids swimming in their own pool.

"They don't sound like this," she said. "It's loud screeching, hair-raising screaming, for hours on end two or three times a week."

The Poczateks' lawyer, Andrew Campanelli, said he was prepared to dispute the charges in federal court if the village court hadn't tossed them.

(the children the Kostakis' have in "their own pool" are 'guest' children- the Poczatek children are playing in what should be the comfort and privacy of their own home-)

[Scout]

182. I fully remember what it was like to be a kid, and I did not behave

in this fashion. My parents actually parented me, and taught me how to behave in public, and to have consideration for other people.

[MonkeyFunk]

83. Yes

the village first received complaint 3 years ago.

[Mythsaje]

85. And did what, exactly? n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

90. Why don't you go read the story?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lipool0621,0,71474.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

That's one of many on the subject.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. No. This piece is about responsibility.

It is not about an occasional outburst. It is about an on-going issue. It doesn't matter it is there backyard or not. Sound travels. I wonder what people's reactions would be about neighbors who had daily sex parties. Keep in mind you can't see anything, but you can hear "oh yes, fuck me harder! Cum on my face! Slap that ass!" Add to that the sounds that go with sex. Sex not your thing if you complain about the constant noise? Are you just a prude? What about the neighbor that blares music? Music that interferes with normal conversation. Is that acceptable?

There will always be people that complain about little things. This situation, as I have read it, is about an on-going issue with a number of neighbors getting involved. This isn't about a 'control-freak' neighbor, but someone that would like to have a pleasant living environment.

[Scout]

172. "so they must shut up in their own back yard"

NO ONE is saying they must be silent! Just tone it down.

For fuck's sake, what is wrong with you?

[TahitiNut]

35. Yeah. Right. That's the ONLY alternative. Uh-huh.

:eyes:

[jobycom]

47. Yeah. Right. Your post said something. Uh-huh.

:eyesroll:

[mondo joe]

150. Dumbest post of the day. Being considerate of others is a good thing, and is not

to be misconstrued as inaction in the face of injustice.

[Scout]

163. riiiiiiiiiiiight, uh huh

:eyes:

[nini]

364. *snort*

LOL.. this actually made me laugh.

Yes - children who are not taught to be respectful of other's environments is exactly the same as kids who sit silently when we invaded.. blah blah blah

Kids don't have to be quiet but they do need to learn limits of what is acceptable and to respect those around them. That was the point of the OP.

I think the lack of respect for others is the bigger problem with our society, not your crazy apples to oranges comparison.

[uppityperson]

21. Next topic: Shopping carts!

[Rosemary2205]

30. I have wondered about that.

Next time some dick at Krogers pushes his empty cart down the hill and it slams into my van and beats up one of my many rust holes - who do I sue? The guy or Krogers or just slap a suit on everyone and see what sticks? :)

[bluestateguy]

23. Maybe

But I do think that when children commit horrific crimes, like school shootings, for example, then I think the parents should be held criminally or civilly responsible, or both. One thing that comes to mind is the Jonesboro, Arkansas shooting in 1998. The two killers were 11 and 13 years old. I wonder why the boys parents were not held responsible in some way for their negligent, derelict parenting.

[Mythsaje]

29. When did we become a nation of grumpy neighbors?

It's like the curmudgeon spirit is invading us all.

"Someone shut them damned kids up!"

[MonkeyFunk]

39. If multiple neighbors have complained for years

it's reasonable to think the problem is not with the neighbors, but the kids.

[BlooInBloo]

42. I dunno. Around the time parents stopped parenting?

[Mythsaje]

43. Which is, when?

About the time spanking went out of style?

Screaming kids are annoying, but so are bitchy, whiny neighbors.

[REP]

46. Especially Bitchy Whiny Neighbors Who Don't Teach Their Children How To Behave in the Community

[Mythsaje]

50. Conform or die, damn you, child!

:evilgrin:

[REP]

52. Binary Thinking Much? "You're Either With Us or Against Us"

Yes, that kind of thinking is so helpful.

Now, I'm going to run my leafblower at 3am under your bedroom window because I'm a rebel and the community can suck my dick. I'm sure that's cool with you, right? Consideration for others is so conformist! I wanna be cool like you and give it to the man ... by being a an inconsiderate neighbor. Take that, Mr Man!

[Mythsaje]

56. LOL

We're not talking about 3 o-clock in the morning, are we? We're talking about the time of day, I presume, when you can run a leafblower, lawn-mower, or weed-eater as much as you like. Not to mention the roofers pounding tacks into the remodel next door.

[REP]

58. But I Don't Want to Conform - AnyTIME, AnyPLACE, AnyWHERE EVER

I wanna GIVE IT TO THE MAN! And if I can do it by pissing of my neighbors with my raw, brutal non-conformity, then I'm down with it.

[Mythsaje]

66. And that refutes what I said HOW?

Other than being remarkably obnoxious.

[REP]

72. Are You Calling Me Obnoxious To Get Me To Conform?

NEVER. I will NEVER take it from The Man. I will give it to The Man. If that means being an inconsiderate neighbor to show how I am not conforming, well, sucks to be my neighbor then, doesn't it.

[Mythsaje]

78. You'd be in a better position to decide if you're obnoxious

than I am. But your response was certainly obnoxious.

And, like I said, didn't do anything to refute my point.

[Mythsaje]

74. Self-delete

wrong location

[REP]

80. The Response Didn't CONFORM To What You Wanted

Now who's The Man? I'm fighting the power, baby - don't like it? Tough shit. If being a considerate neighbor is just conformist behavior, giving a flying fuck about every anonymous internet yahoo is even more conformist, and I don't play that way - not since you opened my eyes that conforming is simply taking it from the man. If it's bad for children, it's bad for everyone and I just won't do it.

[Mythsaje]

86. Nice debating style...

Did you learn it in Quantico?

[BlooInBloo]

127. OMG - I've never been so glad to not be talking to someone now that I read your interlocutor.

[Mythsaje]

140. I've seen some of your debates as well...

I completely understand.

[BlooInBloo]

201. heh! I don't know if I'm *that* bad... Mebbe - lol!

[Mythsaje]

231. I think we can all be that bad...LOL...n/t

[REP]

326. What a Conformist

Goddamn, here you are, taking it from The Man by having some consideration for someone who does not share your DNA. What conformist behavior.

I see your argument has not gotten any better; not surprised. You seem to have lost sight a long time ago that this is not about your father, your stepmother, your (ex?)wife, your children, or you - but some out-of-control children in another state, Ever hear the expression "the guilty flee where no man purseth"? You are going at this thread as though your parenting and your childrens' behavior is in question - when indeed it is not. Why is that?

[Mythsaje]

342. Yeah, kids who aren't hurting anyone or anything

but "disturbing" the neighbors by playing too loudly.

How evil of them.

Punish the parents.

I'm sure glad you're not my neighbor.

[MonkeyFunk]

53. Sorry

not everbody who doesn't enjoy the screams of little Aidan or Ashley are bitchy and whiny.

This has been an ongoing problem for years, with multiple neighbors complaining. At that point, it's time to teach the kids a little self-restraint.

[BlooInBloo]

60. Don't forget Kaitlin!

[jobycom]

48. We've always been. Some people just become the grumpy old people they hated as kids.

And they think they aren't.

[mondo joe]

149. When did we become a nation of inconsiderate neighbors?

If my kids were screaming all day I'd tell them to stop, out of consideration for the neighbors (to say nothing of my own ears).

[Mythsaje]

244. See, except they WEREN'T screaming all day...

That's hyperbole broadcast by the kid-haters on the thread. A few hours a day, two to three times a week.

People need to get over themselves.

[MonkeyFunk]

253. a few times a week for years

doesn't excuse the behavior. There's no reason to scream.

[Mythsaje]

256. Other than the fact they're KIDS...

and kids (particularly girls) scream.

It harms no one, annoying as it may be.

[MonkeyFunk]

258. And it's unnecessary

and impinges on the rights of the neighbors to enjoy THEIR property.

Girls can tone it down and stil have fun.

I can't let my dog bark all day. I can't blast music all day. I can't sit with a airhorn all day and annoy my neighbors.

Same here - the kids should've been told to tone it down.

[Mythsaje]

261. Again, we're not talking about ALL DAY, are we?

I don't particularly like it when the neighborhood kids are pumping out obnoxious rap from their car stereos, but, as long as it's not at night, nobody in the neighborhood throws a bitch.

[MonkeyFunk]

316. So Mythsaje

are you saying there's no circumstances in which a child should be told to tone it down?

[Mythsaje]

343. Sure. Inside, just about anywhere, if they're being too loud.

Or at night.

Not in a playground or in their own yard during the day.

As long as the neighbors have the right to run their lawnmower, chipper, band-saw, air compressor, leaf-blower, and whatever goddam-noisy machine to their heart's content, the children should be left the fuck alone.

[MonkeyFunk]

362. So I can sit by your fence

and set off an air horn all day, and you have no recourse? Cool.

[mondo joe]

270. A few hours a day is plenty enough if it's actually screaming.

I wouldn't tolerate it in my family.

[Mythsaje]

271. It's probably not constant either...

I'd think it would be difficult to maintain.

It's most likely a few hours of play, with laughing and shrieking and everything mixed together.

Again, annoying, but hardly life-threatening.

[Kazak]

200. It's the "gated-community" mentality...

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

33. Of course.

[Sanctified]

37. You sound like one of my neighbors...

I have 2 children, ages 2 and 4 and when they get excited while playing outside they have a tendency to squeal and laugh loudly. Anyway one day I had a neighbor lady show up at my door asking me to keep my children from playing outside in the summertime since she did not have AC and had to keep her windows open and their laughter bothered her.

I told her I would keep my children inside if she told her husband to quite verbally abusing her since everyone in the neighborhood could hear what was going on in their house with their windows open. Well she went white and that was the end of that.

[Rosemary2205]

41. Betcha 2cents HE'S the one who sent her over.

I won't even comment on the damn husband since that would take about every cuss I word I can dream up. :mad:

[uppityperson]

38. 2 words

spray valium


2 more: good night

[JCMach1]

51. Time to Cue the DU Childcatcher trolls ...

Hey, LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!

[Horse with no Name]

81. Too funny

[RB TexLa]

54. I think . . . I'll save the respondent's time

"Come back here when you have children, until then you have no right to comment on these matters"

[frogcycle]

62. this thread annoys me more thanthe kids next door screaming

so i think i won't read it. Of course, I'll still be hearing those kids...

guess I'd better go start up the old chipper

the great thing about ruining everyone's afternoon by chipping branches is, every once in a while you can stop and cut the throttle to idle, and about the time you figure everyone in the neighborhood is breathing a sigh of relief, just jerk that rope on the chainsaw!
BRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!

rip through a couple of logs, then kill the chainsaw and slap that chipper back up to wide open throttle and jam them into it!

After a few hours of that, to spread the chips out nice and even, crank up the mulching mower and just go back and forth over them. Makes a hell of a noise when the chips go flying around in there. Nothing like mowing grass. And if there is a rock or two in there - well, that's just heaven. Of course, then you need to sharpen the blade... now THAT sounds like a kid screaming!

Ah, life's little pleasures!

[Mythsaje]

64. LOL

Interesting contrast there.

[Horse with no Name]

68. LOL

In the town where I live, burning things outside is allowed...hell it's a RIGHT OF PASSAGE.
When we have burn bans, people mope around because they can't burn their shit.
Of course, I have to continually ask myself what these people find to perpetually BURN all of the time, but that is a different subject. So flavor your woodchipper, log splitter, lawnmowers, etc etc WITH the acrid smell of perpetual burning stuff and then let me tell you WHY I prefer the sound of screaming children ANY DAY of the week and twice on Sunday...

[Mythsaje]

75. Yeah, me too...n/t

[orleans]

129. that's hysterical! n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

255. That was absolutely hilarious.. nt

[Radical Activist]

297. oh but kids are cute and precious

so there noise is different! right? :)

[frogcycle]

299. hey, i raise some mighty fine plants in all those woodchips

cute and precious, even

and they are quiet

[bamacrat]

82. If they kept them quite by spanking would there be a problem.

Many don't believe in spanking and kids seem to be getting worse, albeit I am young and have no kids but still, a kid that knows he'll get popped would scream and cause a scene in public.

[Archae]

91. If these parents had any sense of responsibility for their spoiled brats...

They would lay down the law.

"Quit screaming or you're GROUNDED from the pool!"

It's obvious these kids, unless they learn to respect others, will "graduate" to more destructive actions, since the parents have no intention of *GASP* disciplining their precious little kiddies.

[Mythsaje]

95. Right, because noise is just so destructive.

Since this has been going on for years, is there any evidence that they ARE graduating to worse behavior, or are you just making unwarranted assumptions.

[mondo joe]

159. Since they're expecting a baby, maybe the neighbors should wait till it's napping and

turn on their music at full volume.

Noise isn't destructive, after all.

[Hardrada]

93. I remember shouting out stuff when I was a kid

and being duly swatted for the noise I made. I got the idea and the occasional swat never killed me. And made my world a more sedate one.

[donheld]

98. I would agree with the people next to the yard with the pool, but

If you knowingly move next to a playground deal with it. Playgrounds are going to attract kids. Kids scream and make noise. I work graveyard shift so I know what noise is.

[Mythsaje]

106. Yeah...

try getting the roofers to stop working on the apartment building roof during the day when you need to sleep.

That goes over REAL well.

[MonkeyFunk]

108. If the roofers

are working for three years, you might well have a legitimate complaint.

[Mythsaje]

125. LOL

Try working a graveyard shift in a factory after not being able to sleep for two days.

No matter how hard you try, you'll never convince me that screaming children in the middle of the day are anywhere near as potentially hazardous to life and limb.

[Hekate]

102. Not if TSA takes away their sippy cup.I think the kid is justified in screaming then.LOL

Oh, sorry, you meant kids above the toddler stage.

Well, there's what dear old mom used to call "happy noise" (and she had a pretty liberal idea of how loud that could get) and then there's headsplitting noise designed to aggravate.

Adults in charge have some responsibility for keeping the neighbors happy, and the neighbors have some responsibility for understanding that children at play are noisy by their very nature.

Hekate

[MrSlayer]

131. No. As long as it's not after hours, let em scream.

That kind of shit doesn't bother me at all. My house is the house where all the kids come and hang because all the other parents are stuffed shirt assholes like these people bringing a lawsuit. I hope they lose and they have to pay all court costs. Excessive noise after hours I can understand but during the day do what you want. Kids are kids.

[Behind the Aegis]

136. What about horny adults?

Would you give them a "pass" during the day? What about the neighbors that crank the tunes from noon to 7pm, everyday? They get a "pass" too?

[MrSlayer]

139. Yep.

I have no problem with people getting it on loudly at any time and there is nothing wrong with blasting music all day either. I live in an inner city rowhome and I have no problem with anyone doing anything they want to do. I had neighbors when I was a kid who used to be into S&M and all kinds of kinky shit and the whole neighborhood knew when they were enjoying each other, it never bothered anybody, we all got a laugh out of it. Like I said, I can understand if it's late at night or something but during the day I have no problem with anyone doing anything they want to do. Blast your music, scream in orgasmic bliss, play the drums, light off fireworks, run a jackhammer or whatever, it's all good.

[Matariki]

192. when were you my neighbor?

:evilgrin:

[TreasonousBastard]

133. So far, I haven't "heard" enough to...

know if the kids in question are just having fun or having a daily screeching contest.

I think everyone who's ever had, or dealt with, kids knows what the screeching contest is.

So, are the complainants really having their eardrums pierced by the little banshees or are they just bitter old farts who hate kids?

[MiniMe]

141. Normal play noises and screaming are 2 different things

The problem that I have is that some of the kids around me scream when they are playing like they would if they were in an emergency when they are trying to get attention. Its kind of like the boy who cried wolf, and when a wolf finally came, nobody believed him. I've learned to tune the screaming out, but some day, those kids might be screaming for a reason, and nobody will come. So my 2 cents is that parents should teach their kids that screaming like that is for emergencies only, and not a part of play.

[Steerpike]

143. These threads amuse me.

The casual visitor to DU would come to the conclusion that Democrats hate children and Hillary Clinton, and that someone named "robb" is a dingbat.

[Cobalt Violet]

144. Those parents need to muzzle those kids.

How annoying and inconsiderate. It really bothers me when kids scream around here. They sound like they're being murdered. I can't be bothered anymore to check and see if they're okay.

[WinkyDink]

145. Yes. I have lived with the EXACT same screeching and screaming

from the kids behind me (my back yard abuts their side yard, so they are closer than 2 backyard-lengths).

Listen: We've all BEEN kids. And I'm no quiet adult. But NO WAY did I and my friends ever SHRIEK like these kids.

I've heard them at concerts, too. Where some of us might "Whooo!" or "Yay!!", these youngsters "EEEEEEEE!!!!" in decibels one notch below dog-only level.

[JNelson6563]

146. Sad situation

I grew up with a large pool in my backyard and we were in it day in, day out. While we certainly weren't quiet ("Marco!" "Polo!") we didn't scream either. That was back in the day when parents made very clear what was and wasn't acceptable.

Raising my own kids I didn't go in for the screaming stuff either. Sure play and make noise but screaming? No.

I feel sorry for the kids being raised with absolutely no restrictions. They are going to have a tough time adjusting to the real world.

Julie

[gollygee]

147. There's no way to know how loud they were without hearing them

As I said in another thread, there's only so much noise two sets of vocal chords can make before they wear out from overuse. There's only so loud they can get and there's only so long they can maintain it.

It could be that these girls were actually screaming for hours on end, but they would almost have to be working at that. Kids don't naturally scream at loud levels for long periods of time as they play. They giggle, shriek from time to time, and certainly scream occasionally, but that's just normal play noise and they should be able to make a normal amount of noise in their yard during the day.

It could also be that some neighbors didn't like the family for some other reason and ganged up on them to try to get them to move out of the neighborhood.

Who knows?

If my kids were actually screaming for hours on end if they played in the pool, I'd only let them play in the pool occasionally for short periods of time until I knew they could handle playing without screaming for hours on end.

But I honestly kind of doubt they're making *that much* noise.

[Silent3]

167. We're all debating in a vacuum here to a certain extent, yes...

...but I can also easily imagine that it could be possible that, yes, "they're making *that much* noise". I can easily imagine, this being Long Island that we're talking about, tightly packed-together houses with postage-stamp sized backyards, forming a lovely surround of highly acoustically reflective hard surfaces around the area the kids are playing.

I can also easily imagine that sheer decibel level isn't the only issue, but shrillness, bickering, and repetitiveness (as another poster suggested, "Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco! Polo! Marco Polo!" for hours on end).

What's weird in the discussion of this subject is that so many people think their own personal experiences and tolerance for noise is the be-all and end-all of all discussion. "I lived next to X kids screaming for Y hours, and it never bothered me." Case closed, apparently. This "conclusively proves" that it's simply impossible for kids to be too loud, and that anyone who thinks they're too loud must be the real problem.

And then there's the ridiculous binary choices, that the only choices possible are letting kids scream as loud as they want, for as long as they want, OR being a fascist soul-crushing tyrannical control freak who beats children with a baseball bat if they speak louder than a whisper.

God forbid we intrude on a child's absolute and inviolable "right" to be just as loud as they want, and burden them with the terrible weight of thinking about the well-being of others.

[BlackVelvet04]

197. The Marco Polo comment

came from me. I had to leave a pool one time because of 3 girls (and they can screech louder than anything on earth) were playing Marco Polo FOR HOURS. I needed a drink when I got home.

[Silent3]

217. It's a good thing that you now know...

...that it's basically impossible for those girls to have been too loud or too obnoxious, that you're a bad, weak person for letting the girls' free and unrestrained youthful exuberance upset you rather than fill you with joy, and, if you were ever to dare interfere in a situation like that by doing something heinous like suggesting to the girls or their parents that they try to keep the noise down, that you'd be a soul-crushing fascist tyrant and a control freak.

Now that you understand how it's all your problem, perhaps there's a chance you can seek help and work on these character flaws of yours. Maybe it's not too late to save you.

:sarcasm: :)

[tammywammy]

153. It depends

I would have a problem if they were screaming into the night, after 9-ish...and this is neighbors not a playground.

I just bought a house and my neighbors have children. They also have some sort of pool in their backyard, I heard them outside when I was looking in the backyard a week or so ago. That totally does not bother me.

[lonestarnot]

155. CASE DISMISSED :gavel: NEXT CASE!

[treestar]

157. Why not just go out and tell the little kids to pipe down?

Mere adulthood will cause some authority to kick in.

I've never been bothered by kids at play, but if it gets extreme, some adult usually tells them to stop.

[seabeyond]

158. i wouldnt have said fuck off, but i would certainly have laughed at you

and seriously wondered if you were for real.

even childless looking for a place to live, i understood living next to a park would bring a mass of children into my life creating all kinds of "children" circumstances and was a part in deciding if i would chose to live there.

i question your decision making moving next to a park expecting a child free environment more than a child, or lots of them making noise at a park.

seems like a real "duh" to me

[Missy Vixen]

221. The poster in question states in this thread

that the playground in question wasn't built until after he moved in, and he wasn't the only neighbor disturbed by loud noise.

>seems like a real "duh" to me<

Oh, yeah.

As Will Pitt has said before, Reading Is Fundamental.

Julie

[Pithlet]

322. Then he and the others bothered by it are free to move elsewhere.

If they are unable to cope. Playgrounds are a part of any decent, lively community. They aren't going to be built out in the middle of nowhere. They're going to be built in the neighborhoods where people live. It is an unreasonable expectation to demand that basic parts of a community never be built. Of course, moving is an expensive option. Learning to cope is a cheaper, easier option. There's a price for living in a community. It's not like I don't have my own issues. Barking dogs annoy the hell out of me, but I don't insist that everyone get rid of their dogs or have their vocal cords removed or face a lawsuit, which is really the equivalent of what the OP is doing. I don't want the expense or hassle of buying acres of land to surround myself in silence. Dogs are going to bark, and people are going to have dogs, just as kids are going to yell and scream and playgrounds are going to get built. So, I tell myself that I'm not the center of the universe and I cope.

[elehhhhna]

165. We have a pool and 2 girls. They scream sometimes,

but we do tell them to keep a lid on it.

It's worst when the waters cold. That's worth screaming over.

[newportdadde]

168. Newsflash: Parents don't like the screaming either.

I remember when my wife and I were first married.. we had no kids and would go out to eat I would get so annoyed at those asshole parents who couldn't get their kids to shut up. I was so naive... I mean I SLEPT IN on the weekends..

Then I had my own family... now a 3 1/2 year old and twin 16 month old boys and soon to be another baby. Going out to eat is a major event for us.. with lack of help from parents my wife and I have gone out twice alone in the past year.

The whole family has also gone out to eat twice together in the past 16 months, all five of us. In order to accommodate everyone else we went to IHOP at the ass crack of dawn to make sure as to not offend any of the other precious people eating there as best possible.

Parents do care, sure there will be some that don't but most of us do. As far as screaming in a POOL or a PLAYGROUND... wow big surprise there.

I tell you what the kids can be quite in pool the day I can tell my asshole neighbor not to saw on boards outside during my kids nap time.. sound good?

Until you have walked in the shoes of a parent you have no idea.. we talk about tolerance on this board, tolerance of ideas, of races but kids seems to be the one thing that still okay to rant and rave about from people that have no clue.

[Gormy Cuss]

205. There is a matter of degrees.

Kids are loud in playgrounds and pools. That's for certain. It's part of the fun. If you live near a public pool then the ambient noise level is fairly constant because there's always at least one kid who is letting out a fun-loving scream.

It's different if kids are screaming for hours at high decibel on an otherwise quiet street. That's just plain annoying to those within earshot. In the Long Island neighborhood, the neighbors are describing it in those terms and there is a sense of frustration that the parents wouldn't recognize that it was beyond normal levels and perhaps the kids should tone it down.

I do think that your contention that one needs to be a parent to understand is wrong, however. Most of us have enough experience with kids to know that the younger the child, the less likely that the parents can keep them quiet or well behaved in situations where that is expected. That said, there are some fussbudgets who think that children shouldn't be heard ever.

Some parents don't get it however. If your child chooses the moment that you've just sat down in a quiet restaurant* or church to have a tantrum, the responsible thing to do is to leave the place if the child isn't responding to your efforts to console him/her. Likewise, if the children's shrieking in the pool is so annoying that more than one neighbor has talked to you about it, it's time to make some remedy like erecting a more sound proof wall or setting limits on pool time. Just letting your kids continue being disruptive is rude.

[Mythsaje]

246. I know...it gets my back up and I say stupid stuff... LOL

This isn't about "responsible parenting" as much as it's about sticking it to parents who don't act like these people think they should.

[Marr]

171. The case you describe sounds they're like they're being incredibly

bad neighbors, and just plain inconsiderate. Yes, children make noise and that's just fine. But there's a point at which it's reasonable to ask the parent, kindly, to shut the little bastard up.

:)

[Bluerthanblue]

177. "its no fun playing Marco Polo if you have to whisper"

here is one account:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06212007/news/regionalnews/noisy_kids_poolish_court_case_regionalnews_kieran_crowley________and_leela_de_kretser.htm

[Fleshdancer]

178. Why do people have to suck the joy out of childhood?

Kids play loudly. They laugh, they scream, they run and they have fun. Who here has never done this as a kid? Doesn't life suck enough without having to demonize the one time in your life when you have reason to be carefree?

I haven't read the article regarding the kids in the swimming pool and there was no link in the OP, but unless it happened past 9pm I really don't understand the problem. I'm just glad to hear these parents had their kids playing outside and doing something more active instead of playing videogames or watching tv the entire Summer.

[Bluerthanblue]

185. good point about silent video game- tv watchers-

I'm glad my kids have almost always prefered more physical, active, (and usually louder) play.

[mondo joe]

209. False choice. It's not scream as loud as you like or have a joyless childhood

spent indoors watching tv.

The question is: can you have fun and play and still manage a modicum of consideration for others?

The answer, for my family anyway, is: yes.

[Fleshdancer]

220. I would say that having your parents sued for letting you play outside IS a joyless childhood

And why is it assumed that these kids were even loud to begin with? Because the neighbors were annoyed? For all we know, this family could be exactly like yours and did manage a modicum of consideration for others.

I get just as annoyed as the next person when parents allow their children to act like brats in a restaurant or run around the grocery store, etc but as a mom, I feel compelled to stick up for parents who are being sued for something this ridiculous.

Like I said, it would be different if they were keeping the neighborhood up at all hours of the evening but they were playing in their own pool on a summer day which is what they're suppose to be doing. It's what we all do as kids.

[mondo joe]

233. As I have consistely said: we don't know the details so can't offer an informed

opinion. The fact that several neighbors complained suggests to me there may be something to it. It's not hard to find one crank, but to find a few who can all agree is another matter.

I've heard kids scream - SCREAM! - in back yards and don't think it's acceptable. Nor is it necessary to have joy.

[tammywammy]

237. Indeed

There's a big difference between children playing with the occasional squeal of delight and constant screeching/screaming.

I can put up with delight. I wouldn't want hours upon hours of screaming.

[mondo joe]

242. And anyone who thinks kids can't be completely intentionally annoying under

the cover of innocent play has never had or been a kid, or is in complete denial.

"I was just looking." "I was just humming." "I was just playing in the pool."

[tammywammy]

245. I think it's genetic

Don't we all acquire that trait by 3 years old?

[mondo joe]

257. My fantasy tv show is CHILDREN'S COURT - it's basically People's Court but with

legal arguments kids use -- like "I didn't hit her - I just put my hand out like this".

[tammywammy]

334. And, I would watch that!

:rofl:

Kids can be so funny. :)

[nosillies]

349. Can you imagine them trying to serve warrants on all those imaginary friends out there?

How could they ever be found and caught? If you read Miranda rights to someone who's invisible, does it still count? Imaginary friends are such shits. They do EVERYTHING bad, and yet they conveniently disappear when it's time to dole out the punishment.

[JerseygirlCT]

234. Part of childhood ought to include lessons in getting along with

others. If their screaming is so loud it's disturbing the neighbors, the kids ought to be taught to cool it.

Why is that so horrible? I'd do it with mine; I'd expect my neighbors to do the same. We all ought to do what we can to get along.

And if the children are too young to understand that lesson, then they are too young to be outside unsupervised, and can easily be corrected every time it's necessary.

It's not necessary to be allowed to scream at the top of your lungs to be a child or to have fun.

To be a functioning, contributing adult, it *is* necessary for the adults in your childhood to teach you some lessons about the value of consideration.

[LeftishBrit]

181. Yes, with regard to children of this sort of age

I think that people who either have no children or had 'easy' children are often *very* unfair to the parents of screaming babies and toddlers. There is often very little that the parents can do.

However, in the case of older children who scream just for fun, there's no harm in teaching them to temper their fun with a bit of consideration for other people.

But it's hardly a new phenomenon. Children have sometimes been noisy and inconsiderate, and adults have been moaning at them to 'stop that row', no doubt ever since a caveman wanted a nice rest after a hard day hunting a mammoth, and the children in the cave nearby chose that time to scream their heads off.

Iona and Peter Opie's "Children's Games in Street and Playground".
published in 1969 - the Good Old Days when many of us here were kids -, contains the following, written by a child:

'We were having a lovely game of 'Relievo' when a man across the road came out and moved us. My friend Ann said, "Oh shut up you're always moaning". Then the man said, "I will see your father about this it is going too far. Someone is trying to have a sleep." Then my other friend said, "So is my dad." Then the man shouted for his dog Flash and sent him after us.'

No doubt the youngsters involved in that confrontation are now middle-aged ladies complaining about the noisy kids in their own neighbourhoods.

And then there are all the children in the old nursery rhymes: Jeremiah Obadiah- "When he goes to school by day, he roars, roars, roars" or the Little Girl with the Little Curl, "kicking up a rumpus in the attic".

So, yes, I think that parents should teach their kids to be more considerate; but this is something that has always been a problem and doubtless always will be!

[Javaman]

190. All your childhood is ours. please go about your business, this doesn't concern you. nt

[SoCalDem]

191. Barking dogs, yowling cats, screeching kids at play?

Unfortunately they are all just a part of life..

Life's too short to be pissed off at some things.

Our neighbors are "YELLERS!!!". they never speak in a normal tone, and even though it pains me to do so on a balmy spring evening, I just close the doors & windows... and pray for them to move :)

If people choose to live in a neighborhood with children, there WILL be noise.. It's just a fact.

Starting a legal shitstorm with people you have to live near, is rarely a good idea :)

[Javaman]

193. ahhh, yes, welcome to the stupidity and mediocracy of suburbia...

whine, "my neighbors tree blocks my view of the whatever bullshit excuse I can make up"

whine, "my neighbors fence does not fit in with the rest of the neighborhood"

whine, "those kids scream to much"

Whine, "those people park their car in the street"

Whine, "don't those neighbors ever go to sleep?"

Whine, "is it party day for those neighbors everyday?"

this is what "escaping from the city" has morphed into, a nation of fucking whiners.

get over it, kids scream, people party, people stay up late, welcome to fucking suburbia, if you don't like it, move out to your own little private gated community were there is no fun, nothing interesting, everyone is scared of a "stranger" and everyone is waiting to die.

Jesus fucking Christ, just get the hell over yourselves.

We all talk about changing our communities to fit a future of not having enough oil and because of climate change, well guess the fuck what, it's these people you have to get to know and live with. That's part of it, people are different, raise their kids differently, live their lives differently. If you want to have a conformist society, go live in china. I love America because we can (still to some extent) live the way we want.

This is why home owners associations are a blight on America. I call them little nazi outposts.

rant off. Have a damn fine day! LOL

[Horse with no Name]

275. My mom had to have a tree removed from her yard because her neighbor

claimed the roots were on his property.
I don't know about you, but I thought trees were good things....

[Javaman]

276. Didn't you know that trees hate america! lol nt

I chalk it up to the old saying, "people are stupid and they never fail to disappoint". LOL

[Blue_Roses]

196. I see both sides

As the parent of two young children, who scream for no good reason, it is annoying and it sends the hair rising on the back of your neck. However, kids need to blow off steam. Where else but outside. I think the "court" thing is over the top.

[rucky]

356. I don't see either side.

and am convinced that our culture is becoming increasingly incapable of healthy social interaction.

[Kazak]

198. Er, responsible for what?

:shrug:

[BlackVelvet04]

199. It might not just be "harmless" fun......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1160608

[Missy Vixen]

204. Why shouldn't they be?

Who's in control? The child or the parent?

Just asking,
Julie

[acmavm]

212. I've got a solution that ought to make these perfect people happy

just rip out their vocal cords and you'll never have to worry about it again.

Why is it that it's always the same people who pitch a fit and bitch and moan about 'their rights' as if no one else had any?

And do I believe they were perfect as children? Hell no.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

213. Some parents are awful

It's not just the screaming, but in restaurants some of the kids go berserk, start throwing food around, and jump up and down in the booth while the parents just sit there and smile at how cute their little ones are. And I remember when I was young myself that we had a neighbor who brought her kids to our house. The kids would go on a rampage. They would laugh while holding up my mother's ceramic and glass knick-knacks and drop them on the floor for fun. Or they'd throw phonograph records on the wall while their mother just sipped her coffee in the kitchen. The mother just laughed at it saying "how cute".

I think kids will be kids and that a little bit of screaming and shouting is normal. Kids need to express themselves and blow off steam. I don't side with the grouchy old man in the neighborhood who calls the cops if kids walk on his lawn. But the truth is that a lot of Americans are absolutely terrible parents who let their kids basically do what they want and aren't even conscious of the misbehavior and rudeness. No wonder we are becoming a very rude society with no manners.

[havocmom]

266. A-MEN!

Wondering if too many people are just too lazy to actually RAISE their children or if they are really that clueless. Whatever the reason, society is paying a price, and so are kids who grow up with no way to fit in with others at all and no understanding of why they are not liked. It creates dangerous levels of ignorance & frustration.

[Mythsaje]

273. Actually, this is hyperbolic nonsense...

I work in retail and deal with kids on a regular basis. MOST of them are very polite in most ways. Of course, a lot of them drag toys all over the store with little parental control, but, then again, the parents themselves are guilty of this more often than not. I find dishsoap in the toy car aisle or clothing stuffed in on top of the dog food.

But most kids, and most adults I've found, are civil and polite, as long as YOU are civil and polite to them.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

278. Nonsense? Why how very polite and decent you are to a fellow DUer

This kind of dismissive post is something I see almost every time I post nowadays and one of the reasons I've really cut down on my posting. I prefer not to get involved in exchange of insults. The society in general is getting less civil. People can't just disagree, but they've got to accuse you of posting NONSENSE, even when it's based on your own life's experience.

The fact is, I've been an immigration attorney for the last 16 years. I work in primarily a Chinese law office but we handle cases from many countries. I've also spent many years abroad. I cannot count the many, many times I've heard Chinese, European, Israeli and other parents on how unruly and undisciplined American kids are compared to their own. And in the times I've been with them and their children either in their homes or in restaurants, I've seen what they mean with my own eyes. You are right in that not all American children are unruly. But a great number of them most definitely ARE. It comes from parents who have no inkling on how civilized, well-mannered children should behave because (I assume) their own parents never set the example.

And no, I won't dismiss your honest opinion outright as NONSENSE or accuse you of being an absurd human being with absurd nonsensical opinions. I just happen to disagree with you.

[Mythsaje]

279. You're talking about people who have historically

considered us barbarians in the first place. Of course our children are unruly compared to theirs. We accept the premise of self-determination. We don't do arranged marriages, or expect our women to be obedient vassels. Only western Europe is as free of such things as we are, and still some vestige of it remains in places there.

As I don't expect them to adopt OUR ideals, I hardly think it's appropriate for them to expect us to adopt theirs. I deal with kids ON A DAILY BASIS. Hundreds a week. The vast majority of them are NOT particularly unruly--by my lights, anyway.

As far as my own attitude, well, my apologies. This thread is full of people deliberately exaggerating things to prove a point, and using it as an excuse to bash both kids and parents. It straight-out pisses me off.

[Conscious Confucius]

283. I don't know what kind of utopian society some are living in.

I, for one, had a job surrounded by the lowest of society's social spectrum. Kids would run around hooting and hollering and throwing things and the parents would respond (if they did at all) by screaming and berating their children- sometimes even beating them. The parents absolutely have a responsibility for their children's actions, as if they didn't, who else would? I understand that kids are stupid and they do stupid things (Hell, I was a child once too) but once you enter into society you have to consider the best interests of other people. Much of what is wrong culturally with America today is our selfish nature to live according to our own way, regardless of the other people in society. Oh, but forcing our lifestyle upon everyone else is the American way, afterall. In response to other people complaining about noise, which they have every right to do so, we claim that these folks are bitter and joyless. That's rediciulous. Common courtesy and respect should be more prominent in our culture, as it is unfortuantely decreasing with every new generation's selfish antics.

In this respect, why can't I go into my backyard and crank up some Black Sabbath records? My speakers would surely drown out the idiot kids yelling. How long do you think this would last until the police arrived? Who, by the way, would call the police? Oh, but the parents of the idiot kids, of course! Why wouldn't I crank up my stereo in the backyard? Because the world doesn't belong to me, and I have to respect the existence of others. Idiot behavior, by the way, doesn't end with kids screaming. Are we to assume that the drunken college morons who are playing obnoxious shirtless football are just college kids being college kids? Hell no! Why can't anybody take responsibilty for their actions anymore?

[Mythsaje]

285. Let me put it this way...

I live on Hilltop in Tacoma. On weekends in the summer, the neighbors throw a block party and wander here and there with music blaring at full blast throughout most of the day. Some of it is music I myself enjoy and some of it isn't.

I have to turn up my TV a little louder to hear it, or put in my headphones and listen to a book. This does not harm me in any way.

If you were my neighbor and turned up your Sabbath albums, I'd be quite happy. Might I recommend Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll or Heaven and Hell? One of Ozzy and one of Dio. Born again with Gillian on vocals was fun too.

We don't want to run rough-shod over our neighbors, but, then again, we don't need to be so insular and nasty because the sound of them living their lives happens to intrude on OUR space.

We get along great with our neighbors, though we're not particularly sociable people. We do because we don't raise a fuss about things that don't matter and we don't leave our Pom out in the yard barking at everyone who walks by all the time. Though, from what we can tell, the neighbors take the dog in stride.

If the kids party too late on the street, making too much noise, one of the neighbors sticks his head out the window and yells "go home!" or something equally cranky. And usually the kids do.

This isn't so much about common courtesy as it's about forcing someone else to conform to what you believe they should do. So the kids make a lot of noise in the pool a few times a week. BIG FUCKING DEAL. Get earplugs.

[Conscious Confucius]

288. We seem to be talking at cross purposes here.

I don't think the problem with most is noisy kids. The real problem is the fact that many parents refuse to acknowledge and respect other people. Kids are always going to be loud and stupid, but there should be a point where parents take some sort of responsibility for their children. I'm not too fond of children, but I understand that others do not share my feelings, so I have to respect their choice and right to do so. Shouldn't it work both ways?

"This isn't so much about common courtesy as it's about forcing someone else to conform to what you believe they should do."

This comment would work for either argument: you would complain about me forcing my view of children on you, while I could complain about you forcing your view of children upon me. Once we enter into society, we should expect to reach some sort of compromise. Open discussion should be available for the neighbors of opposing viewpoints. If one refuses to accept the difference of opinion of the other, then, unfortunately, the police has to be an option. Again, it's not about the kids, it's the parents.

Heaven and Hell is a fantastic album, and I'd have to give the nod to the Ozzy era for Master of Reality. I dig Born Again also, as I am a big Deep Purple fan too. Back to the argument, though, I'm sure the parents of the children wouldn't appreciate the crunching guitar riffs of Tony Iommi and the wizards and dragons lyrics of one Ronnie James Dio. You seem to be more reasonable than most.

[Mythsaje]

293. What baffles me about this story is that the parents

aren't bothered by this loud behavior, and I assume they're closer than the neighbors. I doubt these kids were doing anything too terrible, and the parents might have said something to them at some point, but, then again, maybe they figure play is play and as long as no one gets hurt, it's all good.

Speaking of Dio, is it just me, or does most of his song lyrics come across as blatant, meaningless gibberish featuring dragons and mystical whatnot with no apparent point or purpose? Don't get me wrong, I like Dio okay, but I think whoever writes Ozzy's lyrics (if not Ozzy himself--there's some question here) is a lot better at it.

If I want mysticism in my metal, I prefer to tune into Maiden or Dream Theatre. For politics or fantasy stuff, I'll go Priest or Queensryche.

[Conscious Confucius]

310. Leaving the topic completely.

What I like about Dio's lyrics is that they are very visual: Rainbow in the Dark, Man on the Silver Mountain, Neon Knights, etc. Sure, if you listen to enough Dio he really starts repeating himself. Hell, if it works once, it'll work a thousand times, right? Ozzy never wrote any lyrics for Sabbath or his solo career. In Sabbath, it was bassist Geezer Butler. If you're looking for ridiculous lyrics check out the Ozzy solo years, Bark at the Moon, for one. I never really get mysticism from Maiden, for I interpret their lyrics as all about war, and the destruction contain therein. To this day, I can't get into Dream Theater. I find a lot of their stuff to be unnecessarily technical. If your song requires a bit of technical wizardry, fine, use it, but don't fill your songs with such stuff if there is no need.

In closing, I suppose I should say something applicable to the forum: George Bush is a Jerk!

[Mythsaje]

324. LOL...

I think this thread has pretty much worn itself out. No worries about hijacking.

Man on the Silver Mountain I got. But what the heck was he trying to say in Holy Diver?

I suspected Ozzy didn't write the tunes, but whoever did sure wrote some great ones. I think Randy Rhodes had something to do with some of the tunes on the first couple solo albums. Then even later he had some good ones like Shot in the Dark. Bark at the Moon was awful, but hardly worse than some of the party bands getting all the airplay at the time.

And, yeah, you get into stuff like Revelations and Maiden gets pretty oddly mystical. "Just a babe in a black abyss, no reason for a place like this, the walls are cold and souls cry out in pain. An easy way for the blind to go, the clever path for the fools who know, the secret of the hanged man, the smile on his lips."

But, yeah, they did a LOT of anti-war stuff too.

Dream Theater's first album was transcendent. The stuff that came after? Some of it's pretty good. It's math-rock, like Rush, only more so. I like prog metal. Another band that kicked ass on the arcane, fantasy front was Savatage, but you have to be a real maniac to know who they are.

To satisfy the political needs of the forum...I'll quote another rocker here.

"If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.
Maybe it'll work this time."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

286. I accept and respect your opinion

Maybe our sensitivities are a little different on this subject. I admit that there are good kids out there. But I find a lot of American kids to be very forward and even rude compared to foreign kids and I blame the parents. Sorry for saying something that might seem anti-American, as I do not intend to be. I know that the feeling of self determination in America is very pronounced compared to other cultures. I just think that a little moderation might be good, too.

By the way, I have only run into a handful of arranged marriages. Asian women are much more liberated now than they used to be, at least those I have encountered in my work including my boss, the head attorney in the firm.

[Mythsaje]

287. Compared to foreign kids, sure...

And I believe in moderation in all things...including moderation.

Personally I hope my kids grow up to be a little less likely to capitulate to b.s. social pressures. Humans are a pack animal, and a certain amount of conformity is natural. But one should never allow it to go too far.

I wouldn't want my kids to be too fragile to deal with an adult who steps over the line, for example, but I'd hope they'd have sense enough to avoid conflict when it's plainly unnecessary. In some cases, "forward" is good.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

289. "BS social pressures" "In some cases, forward is good"

We certainly come from two entirely different worlds. I'll leave it at that.

[Mythsaje]

291. Try an American High School sometime

Or, worse, a junior high school.

You'll get a direct experience of "b.s. social pressures," let me assure you. As Rush put it in their song, Subdivisions, "conform or be cast out."

It ain't pretty.

And if some psycho adult is trying to push my kids into something they know is wrong, I certainly hope they have the good sense to tell him (or her) to go "Cheney" themselves. That's precisely when being forward is a good thing.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

295. I came up through US public schools including junior high and high school

But I also spent an entire year in the equivalent of a junior high in Europe. I found the kids far more respectful (and fearful) of their teachers and of their parents than American kids.

I wasn't referring to the social pressures of kids on kids. I don't blame the kids. This thread to me is about the parents and whether they are responsible. I'm talking about objective norms of courtesy in society. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were suggesting that social pressures of decent behavior and common courtesy were BS. As far as kids being forward, I wasn't talking about kids rejecting the advances of a child molestor. I'm talking about the way American kids speak to adults in general. Sometimes it isn't pretty.

[Mythsaje]

298. Hell, listen to how adults talk to adults...

I've never been a fan of the "respect your elders" meme, no matter how hard they tried to beat it into me. The way I figured it, they had to earn it like everyone else. If they couldn't, or wouldn't, treat me with respect, they got none from me.

I mellowed as I got older, and then developed serious social anxiety, which makes it nearly impossible to be anything but civil to other people. I prefer civility, but I'm getting past my anxiety, and I really don't push well.

Kids are almost always respecful when they approach me. For whatever reason. Teenagers--well, that's a little different. Still, most of them are at least decent. If they want to treat me as an equal, I'm okay with that...as long as they don't think they can treat me like an inferior.

With my kids, what I say goes. I'm open to negotiation, but if I'm serious, I'm serious.

[MonkeyFunk]

317. and nobody is complaining about civil children

and responsible parents.

This is about uncivil children and irresponsible parents, and you seem to think they don't exist, which is just dumb.

[Mythsaje]

325. I know they exist...

I just don't think these folks are a terribly good example.

[rucky]

357. Same could be said for some neighbors. n/t

[Madspirit]

215. I Am Not a Parent

I am a 53 year old lesbian with no children. Summertime, outdoors, swimming pool=squeals of delight, noise, play. It's healthy. Go to a Child Development link. Go take a Child Development Course. Go take Psychology 101. Or just grow a heart and some patience.

This isn't someone running a wood chipper at three in the morning. The hyperbole in this thread is STUPID. Little kids squealing is NOT going to amount to kids growing up with no respect or kids committing crimes, as has been implied and even said by some of the more curmudgeonly among us.

...and the charges have been dropped. So here's something childish for you curmudgeonly child-hating miscreants: nananananana

Lee

[Bluerthanblue]

218. and their 70something neighbor, who

lives right next door to the family who was charged agrees with you Madspirit.

And so do i-

My youngest is now 14 :wow:- and while we have always tried to be respectful of the comfort of others- I'm sure that every one in the world has annoyed their neighbors at some time or another.

For some, being 'an adult' in the presence of children is the best real opportunity we'll get to having "a happy childhood". (speaking for myself :silly: )

The summons came the day after the kids had a birthday party for one of the girls.

This whole situation says some pretty sad things about our society-


peace,
blu

[JerseygirlCT]

236. I am

And I've heard the gamut (including noise from my own) of laughter and giggles (wonderful!) to constant screaming just to scream (starts to get not so wonderful after a while).

The screams have often been such that I find myself charging out of the house, half-dressed, ready to call 911. That's not fun, nor is it necessary.

I don't know what the situation was in the OP.

I do know that I'd expect my kids to offer a certain amount of consideration if their play was disturbing a neighbor.

[mondo joe]

262. I am a parent.

And I love my kids, and their play, and I love them having friends over. In fact, I like to join in whenever I can.

But if they were screaming in the back yard I'd ask them to turn it down out of consideration for our neighbors.

[AngryOldDem]

228. This has probably been said ad infinitum here...

But I don't have time to read through 100 posts.

Noise from kids in a pool is to be expected. If it gets to be to the point where you can hear them ten blocks away, that's another matter. But you have to be tolerant living next door to a family with small children.

Also, if you have such an issue with children/noise, why did you live next door to a playground? Was the playground built after you moved in? Some things you just have to accept as a matter of course. It's a little like moving into an area with a hospital or firehouse and then bitching about the constant sirens.

Kid noise gets on my last nerve too, at times (and I am a parent), but that's kids for ya. Deal with it.

[JerseygirlCT]

235. But it goes both ways.

We've probably all encountered the crotchety neighbor who is just plain pissed off to have to live in a world with those small nasty children in it.

But we've probably also encountered the kind of kids who don't care at all how their behavior effects other people. Or for that matter, the guy with the lawn mower at 9 pm or 7 am.

Living close to other people, the civilized thing to do is to be mutually considerate. That means crotchety learns to put up with a certain amount of joyful noise. And kids learn to tone it down, out of respect.

I'm not sure I have any hope for the lawn mower guys, though.

[AngryOldDem]

345. True.

But...if you're living next door to a family with kids, you resign yourself to a certain amount of noise. You also take into consideration the neighborhood when you're looking for a place to live. Life is full of trade-offs and compromises.

[Stinky The Clown]

230. You should meet my brother. You two would get along great.

His name is Grumpy The Clown

[JerseygirlCT]

232. Yes, absolutely. That's just plain rude. nt

[phylny]

238. I'm with you. I cannot stand it when kids scream nonstop.

I'm a speech-language pathologist, and I service some kids who do just this. I'm not talking about laughing and having fun. It's a non-stop, ear-piercing scream, usually done when they're having fun, NOT out of frustration.

Not only does it hurt my ears and annoy me, it's really bad for their vocal folds (cords).

So, you get no nasty rebuttal from me. The parents should be monitoring their children's noise levels and by doing so, be good neighbors.

[RC Quake]

239. Oh yeah, screaming kids are great!

Love em. Can't get enough of em. Neighborhood dogs love it too. The louder the screams; the louder the barks. To add to the pleasure, a couple of car alarms make a nice symphonic background. Then add in the neighbors that amplify their music to drown out the innocent little childrens' screams that started the dogs barking that set off the car alarms.

Can't get enough of em.

[Sapere aude]

240. I'm certainly not going to read through all these posts because I can bet you what the content of

them are.

When my niece was a few months old she threw up on me and her mom said, "don't worry it doesn't stink she is breast fed."

I wasn't worried but I felt like mothers and dads can't put themselves in the place of people who don't feel blessed while in the presence of their little kids. Nor do I, a childless person know how it feels to be a proud parent of a screaming kid. All I know is that I don't like being sent flying from my skin by the sudden shriek of some little kid.

I think it is delightful to here the laughter of little kids but the screaming has got to go!

[RedCappedBandit]

254. I hate that screeching

I have a damaged ear drum.. when a little kid screams near me it causes me physical pain.. when the parents don't even TRY to clam their child down a tad, you're damn right its annoying.

Fortunately, I only have one immediate neighbor with a little kid, and she is actually well behaved.


Of course, kids have the right to have fun, as does everybody. But when they scream and scream and scream at the top of their lungs and the parents don't do anything to take control of the situation it can obviously get to be too much.

[SammyWinstonJack]

264. I'd rather they were screaming while swimming/enjoying their selves instead

of screaming while their surroundings are bombed to smithereens, wouldn't you? :shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

265. They should be subjected to the same decibel regulation

as any other noisemaker. I would like to see all forms of noise pollution addressed.

There is a difference between the sound of kids having a good time and the sound of kids being as loud as possible because they know it pisses off adults.

The kids who do that are going to grow up into obnoxious adults unless someone teaches them consequences. If the parents are so out to lunch they can't perform that role, social services should step in. I don't think jail would be constructive, though.

I'll bet you anything that a decibelometer set up by the swimming pool of decent, involved, competent parents would never trigger higher than the daytime limit.

I've had "stupid, dumb, and hyphy" teenagers hold screaming contests outside my bedroom window from 3-5 a.m. I wouldn't have minded seeing the law get involved with them and their parents--wherever they happen to be--if the kids are under 18. But just try getting OPD to respond to a noise complaint.

[Madspirit]

267. The Charges Were Dropped...n/t

[Mythsaje]

268. My guess is that few kids would have the attention span

to continue this for as long as it's apparently been going on just to piss off adults. It's a side-effect of play, not a deliberate act of sonic sabotage.

[mnhtnbb]

274. I lived in an apt across the alley from a church playground

and it drove me NUTS.

I was 21 when I rented it and never occurred to me that there might be a pre-school with kids out there all week long. I had thought there might just
be some kids out there on Sunday!

That was a lesson in checking out the neighborhood before buying/renting
ever again.

[bobthedrummer]

280. "The screaming of children in quiet Portage, Wisconsin"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1161061

[LWolf]

281. Yes. Parents should be responsible.

It's called courtesy. Teaching courtesy to others is a parental responsibility.

Kids like to scream. I don't know why. Perhaps its a release of that inexorable energy that goes into growing them. You know, that energy we all wish we could bottle and absorb as older adults.

I don't think that kid's natural exuberance needs to be snuffed. I just think it needs to be moderated with an awareness of where and when it is appropriate.

If neighbors can hear you, you might be too loud. Noise intrusion is not ok. Stay out of people's personal "space" unless invited.

[fishnfla]

282. What is a "playground supervisor"?

and how can the parents be held responsible if the kids are under others' supervision?

Since the charges were dropped, and you answered the question yourself in your example, no, parents cannot be held responsible.

Sorry busybodies, but I hear there's someone in the neighborhood who doesn't cut his grass.

Sic 'em!

[npincus]

290. yes.

[DefenseLawyer]

294. Quick question for the litigious OP

And this may have been covered here, I didn't care enough to read 300 posts on the subject, but did they build the playground by your house or did you move into a house next to a playground? If they playground was already there, that is kinda like moving in above a dance club and then complaining about the loud music.

[redqueen]

304. Ooooh logic!

Look out, whiny whinersons! ;)

[Nikia]

300. When my sister and I were in elementary school

One day we tried screaming loud for as long as we could in the park. In less than a few minutes, we stopped because our voices hurt and we had a hard time even speaking in our normal voices for a while. We learned our lesson and never tried this game again. Really, I don't believe that two girls can scream loudly for hours at a time whether they wanted to or not. By loudly, I mean at a level that would exceed most noise oridance levels for substained periods of time.

[Mythsaje]

301. Yep...

This is why I don't buy the "sustained" argument here at all. It's physically impossible. Intermittant, perhaps, punctuating laughter and shouted words, but sustained?

Uh-uh...

[JANdad]

305. THANK YOU

I think this whole issue in LI, is overblown and exaggerated...

I have no earthly idea how kids could "scream" for hours on end...I'm calling BULLSHIT on this one and concluding that these so-called neighbors are a bunch of up-tight assholes...

[redqueen]

303. Held responsible for what? Noise?

Get over yourselves, buy some fuckin earplugs / earphones / whatever and leave others be.

[MonkeyFunk]

318. How bout you buy some gags

for the kids?

Get over yourself - your offspring suck.

[mondo joe]

331. I trust you appreciate that all noise is not equal. NT

[Ellen Forradalom]

306. Common-sense consideration applies

Play sounds OK.
SCREAM SCREAM SCREAM not quite OK.

[mondo joe]

335. For the life of me, I can't understand why this most obvious answer escapes so many.

:shrug:

[goodhue]

308. for what?

ear-damage?

[MonkeyFunk]

319. for inability to enjoy their OWN property

if I sit right next to your yard with an air horn and blow it off all day, I suspect you'd complain.

[Mythsaje]

346. Again, we're not talking about ALL day, now are we?

How 'bout the guy who's into wordworking running a saw for a couple hours a day every day? Now THERE'S an irritating noise.

Just because MY hobby/avocation is a quiet one doesn't mean I have to insist my neighbor gives up his.

There's a reason I write in the middle of the night when the rest of the world's asleep.

[Dastard Stepchild]

309. I'm starting to pay more attention to these threads now that I am pregnant...

Mostly because I like to read both sides of the coin. I'd like to think that I will do everything in my power to raise a respectful child, but I'll never forget the time I babysat a little girl that out of the blue started screaming at the top of her lungs. I had absolutely no idea what to do to get her to stop, and tried everything in my power to placate her. :)

So, I'm always of two minds when I read these things. Of course, one must do everything in their power to prevent themselves (and the kinder in their care) from being a public nuisance. That said, those little kinder can be extremely unpredictable and do the most unexpectedly embarrassing things in public. With outdoor activities, though, I am much more tolerant of loudness. We live right across the street from a public pool. We expected it to be noisy and exuberant in the summer, and it is. I suppose I might just be one that has a higher tolerance for noise, but I'll have to remember to be very mindful of the fact that others may not see it as benignly.

[Pithlet]

320. You will learn that no matter how hard you try

There will be people who think you don't do enough. You will learn that your child will mostly have their good days, but on the days they don't you're going to wish a hole would open up underneath you. And there are some people in the world who simply do not tolerate children well. I don't exactly blame them because kids can be annoying, and not everyone will tolerate things the same way. They can't help it. It doesn't make them bad people. But it probably makes living in the world a little harder for them than it is for the rest of us. Some of them are going to be vocal about it, and may even tell you you're a bad parent and that your kids suck. It's part of being a parent, I guess. You start to notice the child haters more when you become a parent. It seems they come out of the woodwork. But the joys parenthood give you so far outweigh it that it really isn't of much consequence. Oh, and congratulations :)

[Dastard Stepchild]

321. Some very sage wisdom there...

Thanks for sharing. And thanks for the congrats! We're so very excited about this. :)

[seabeyond]

332. my 12 yr olds revelation. as an adult cuts in line in front of him.

he later tells me. i told him to speak up.... respectfully. he stated even if he used manners and spoke up respectfully to the adult for cutting in line in front of him, it is still HE, the child.... who is out of control, rude, disrespectful, bad.... in todays society

i have seen a great many adults who equally do not behave well and especially at all times

who are teaching our children?

the very adults that criticize the children, in their rants to youths out of control today, can be the very adult setting the example for our youth.

[Silent3]

340. I can appreciate that there's no pleasing everyone...

...but that's not a reason to give up making any effort at all to moderate your kids behavior (not that I'm saying you do) or to lump everyone who gets annoyed over a whole range of behavior, with varying degrees of patience and tolerance, as "child haters".

If you're in a crowded restaurant, and you kid is talking a bit loud or crying a bit now and then, but only one or two people are giving you a dirty look, it might make sense to figure they're just being overly sensitive. If you keep seeing half the people in the restaurant looking your way, however -- or, to get back to the original story, half of your neighbors are complaining about how loud your kids are for three years and they get so exasperated they feel like they have to take you to court -- then it's time to start wondering if it fair to expect that many people to "just deal with it", and if it's right to dismiss that many people as ridiculously intolerant.

[Pithlet]

360. Not doing any lumping.

There are child and parent haters. It is a fact. I didn't make the statement that anyone annoyed by child behavior is a child hater. I get annoyed myself, sometimes. But, there are some awful, hateful statements about the general state of parents and children these days, and these stories always bring that out in droves. I can see someone who's about to become a parent being put off by this. If the source of the noise in this story were a dog let out to exercise during the day, there wouldn't be a tenth of the vitriol. It isn't a given fact that there was cause to for the neighbors to take them to court. None of us here knows that for a fact unless we live in that neighborhood. It's just automatically assumed by many, because kids today are spoiled brats, and parents today are selfish and unreasonable, etc. etc.

[mondo joe]

330. I think most people are in a sensible position that is at neither extreme.

In fact I'm not sure the extremes really exist in any meaningful way - those being "kids should be silent" and "kids should make any noise they want",

I think most people expect kids to make noise, and aren't troubled by it. And I think most people would also acknowledge that now and then it can get out of hand, and a little moderation is called for.

[notadmblnd]

333. I understand what you mean

We live in a very quiet neighborhood and the screams of children are normally a signal of something wrong and adults usually come running. Recently a couple moved in with two little girls. I suspect they are a little overindulged and spoiled and when they are upset or don't get their way, the let lose with blood curdling screams (not laughter or the loud noise of children playing), that has caught the attention of more than one adult in the neighborhood. Theses are screams that would make one think the children are being hurt or abused. As a neighbor there is nothing I can do about the distressful screams. but I'll tell you what it has done... it has conditioned the neighborhood not to listen and that is very sad because if these little girls ever do get in some kind of trouble and need the help of adults in the neighborhood, chances are their real screams for help will be ignored. And that is the fault of the parents.

[Tulum_Moon]

336. This is a long thread!

If my kids are having fun and are being loud, so what. They will be grown up soon. The old bat that lives behind me can close her windows if she doesn't like it. Maybe she wont put out all those stupid GOP signs this election season. My kids are taught to be have in public places. But my yard is their domain. They do as they please.

[notadmblnd]

337. Being loud and having fun is one thing. Screaming at the top of your lungs because you are mad at

your sissy or mommy didn't indulge your momentary whim, is another. these little girls sound like they are being hurt and I've come running out of the house more than once to see what is wrong. Each and every time, it has been a behavioral issue and not danger or injury. Hopefully their parents are keeping a good eye on them because I've learned to ignore it.

[MonkeyFunk]

351. Can I put my car in my driveway and have my car alarm go off all day?

If not why not?

Can I get a kid to set to it off and leave it going?

If not, why not?

[BlackVelvet04]

353. If you lived beside me

and your kids did as they pleased and it pleased them to screech and scream you'd be getting a lot of visits from the police.

[KitchenWitch]

352. It is up to the parents to moderate their children's behavior

It sounds to me that the screaming has become a public nuisance, since it is not just the adjoining properties that are experiencing the noise pollution.

[katamaran]

354. A lot of parents don't teach kids to use restraint anymore

A lot of parents don't teach kids to use restraint anymore. They think it's perfectly fine to let their kids run around, knocking things over, creating a general scene of chaos and screaming like banshees. I see it every day in stores and in my neighborhood. Kids scream at the top of their lungs in the mall because they're ticked off. They scream as shrilly as possible at each other in the backyard because Timmy is on their favorite swing. They shriek at inattentive parents to get them to watch them do stunts because they want attention.

When my sister and I were growing up (I'm 29 now, sister is 24), our dad worked the graveyard shift at the shipyard. He was the lump in the bed during the day. A couple other guys on our block worked the same type of hours...Ford plant worker, police officer, night shift foreman. We were taught from a very early age to play quietly both inside and out. Sure, we yelled at each other and banged sticks around and made loud noises, but we never approached the sheer cacophony of shrieks that I hear now. I asked my parents today if my sister and I were quiet...they said we played and acted like normal kids, just with the decibels lowered a little. All the kids with late-shift dads were like that. We grew up just fine. We were kids and were never denied the ability to do kid stuff.

Parent that let their kids run completely wild both physically and audibly really tick me off. I don't care if kids yell and fuss. I do hate the constant screaming from the kids three doors down and their constant "That's mine!" and "Don't touch me!" and "Mommmmmm!!!"

[BlooInBloo]

355. Your title would be improved by removing the word "held".

[TheFarseer]

361. I was at the supermarket with a friend the other day

and there was this mom with probably about a 2 year old, and the kid was just screaming and throwing a crying fit. The mom was trying to ignore it I guess, because she wasn't doing a damn thing about it. So my friend goes over looks right at the kid and very sternly says, "You stop that. That's annoying." The kid and mom were stunned. Mom didn't say a damn thing and the screaming stopped!

[assclown_bush]

363. Yes, they should be responsible. And if they don't make the kids behave: SUE THEM!!!

Drag their *sses into court and sue the hell out of them. I think children should be neither seen NOR heard. Children should be shipped off and sent to boarding school somewhere far away in Switzerland or Austria. If parents cannot afford to do this they should not procreate. Procreation is over~valued any way. There is absolutely NO risk whatsoever that human population on earth is in danger of being depleted. People need to stop replicating themselves. I hate all these hypocrite "ecologically" minded people who breed. If they really and truly want to help the planet DON'T HAVE ANY CHILDREN!!! Adopt a child and do the whole world a favor. Recycling is not ENOUGH! There are just too many people on the planet and too many being born.

I hate going into any restaurant and being seated next to people with children. I demand that I be re-seated so that I don't have to smell the stench of babies. I would rather sit near the bathroom or the kitchen than be within earshot of an infant. The worst offenders of all are the piggy parents who take babies in diapers into hotel swimming pools. That is sick and criminal and I always make a huge stink (pardon the pun) if I witness a baby in a swimming pool.