Why CAN'T we be more like Europe?

[Taverner]

Every time I talk Economics with a RWinger or a "Centrist" Dem, they always use the case of "we don't want to end up like Europe"

Well, why the fuck not????

They have free healthcare
They have lower violent crime
They have a higher standard of living
They have 48 FUCKING DAYS OF VACATION A YEAR!!!
If you are out of a job, there is always the dole
If you are a college student, you get tuition, room and board for free


I mean, yeah, sounds like hell over there :eyes:

[jobycom]

1. We aren't educated enough?

Or because our cuisine is so barbaric. One of the two.

[Taverner]

2. Well we did invent the deep fried Snickers bar after all

:puke:

[jobycom]

6. Oooo, that's an argument in our favor. They go great with French wines.

A nice Bordeaux, a deep fried snickers...

Must be the education thing, then.

[Lance_Boyle]

75. I believe it was the Scots

who invented the deep fried candy bar.

Of course, they also invented fried lard.

Weirdo friggin' Scots.

[FloridaJudy]

122. And haggis. Let us not forget haggis. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

112. I thought the Scottish invented that?

[WritersBlock]

129. Mars Bars. Deep-fried Mars Bars.

Gotta get yer terminology right :evilgrin:

[CottonBear]

3. The wingnuts want a fundie church on every corner, guns and huge gashog vehicles.

Plus, there's no NRA to join or 700 Club to watch on the teevee.

[Vilis Veritas]

12. What is wrong with guns?

I agree that the other things you list are useless, but, I am a democrat with a gun and proud of it. Gave up pacifism when they took up Fascism.

I also do not look over the pond and dream of the Starry Night when I can go home to the fatherland...sorry.

Just my opinion.

[Taverner]

22. Switzerland has lots of guns

Europe has no real problem with guns

[Mr. Ected]

66. Switzerland Has An Astronomical Suicide Rate

I just learned that yesterday.

[slackmaster]

74. So does Japan

It's not the guns.

[LSK]

26. their only purpose is to kill people and animals maybe????

Why the hell do people obsess over guns so much?

[CottonBear]

33. Who knows.

Here in the South, I think there is a lingering resentment of the north (not by everyone mind you - I'm a native Southerner and a proud liberal) by some whites, especially in conservative, rural and suburban areas (which is most of the state). It's part of being manly: driving a pickup with a confederate flag tag (which is part of our GA flag :( ) or sticker, owning a gun (handguns, deer rifles and shotguns mainly) and having a "The South Will Rise Again" attitude.

[slackmaster]

40. 142 years and counting

The South hasn't risen again yet...

[Vilis Veritas]

52. Yet...nt.

[Clark2008]

77. Um - I'd beg to differ.

Checked out the past few presidents lately? Checked out the past few Democratic presidents at all?

Dubya even had to fake being a Southerner to get elected.

Should tell you something.

[Vilis Veritas]

45. Wow...

...

edited to add: Thanks for the clarification down line...;-)

Peace.

[Vilis Veritas]

38. Not sure.

There are other purposes for guns.

Me, I like to shoot targets. Sorry, if that offends. I have had a knack for it since I was a kid and pegged a tin can top from twenty paces with a 22 pistol.

There is no such thing as getting rid of guns. There is something called disarming the people. Guns will still be had by those who wield power.

My opinion.

[ProudDad]

63. Compensation for small dicks? (n/t)

[Vilis Veritas]

68. Another miss. n/t

[slackmaster]

70. Love that tough guy talk

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2817870#2818239

[geardaddy]

82. Nooo....

that's Hummers and sports cars. ;)

[hfojvt]

76. If you are tromping through the woods

and run into a wolverine, a badger, a bear, or even a rabid skunk, it's just a good idea to have a gun handy. Some animals, after all, are carnivores and omnivores too.

[AndyTiedye]

125. What Does a Rabid Skunk Do? Try to Bite You and Spray at the Same Time?

[Jed Dilligan]

87. People and animals sometimes need killing.

You're lucky if you don't know that from personal experience.

I'm not a gun guy myself, but I don't want the citizenry disarmed until the police are disarmed.

[smirkymonkey]

114. I honestly don't get it - I really don't.

They are implelments of death. That is all. I can't understand the American obsession with gun ownership. Personally I think it's sick. Then again, I want to live in Europe.

[CottonBear]

28. I have no problems with guns in general.

I believe there should be strict restrictions on handguns and automatic/assault type weapons.

In any case, I was being semi-sarcastic. I should have used this smilie: :sarcasm:

I live in the deep south and God, guns, gays and immigrants are the hot topic issues among my fundie, wingnut, French hatin' fellow Georgians.

[slackmaster]

36. Automatic weapons have been strictly regulated since 1934

And we do have some strict controls on handguns.

[Vilis Veritas]

48. Yes. We have lots of laws.

It is enforcement that most every gun owner I know of KNOWS is seriously lacking.

Peace.

[Vilis Veritas]

49. We have lots of gun laws.

They need to be enforced.

Peace.

[Clark2008]

78. Must be quite a difference once you cross the GA/TN line.

I live in Tennessee and we don't seem to be refighting the Civil War during every conversation (hell, it gets talked about on DU a helluva lot more than I ever hear it in my daily dealings with neighbors, co-workers, clients and friends).

[CottonBear]

84. The stupid confederate flag is one big reason why we have Perdue as governor. n/t

[nealmhughes]

117. Same goes for far North Alabama. I wouldn't take bets on the mountains by GA

or anywhere south of the Tennessee River, though!

Actually when I frequently travelled home from Tuscaloosa and Montgomery for grad school and my stint at ASU, I always was afraid of being held captive by a rural gang of toothless rednecks who would mock me for my Volvo and force me to drink moonshine and buck dance until I fled for my life to the safety of crossing the River!

Or as my nephew once asked as a child learning the capitals of the states: Alabama-Nashville! When corrected, he asked "Where in the world is Montgomery, do they have an Opryland?"

:evilgrin:

My grandmother honestly believes that "nice people" live between the MS and GA state lines, north of the Tennessee River from Huntsville to Louisville, and nowhere else! But she is 89 years old. . .

[ananda]

4. corporoate barbarians rule here

I think they're starting to get footholds over there, too, though.

[Taverner]

5. They already rule here AND there

It's just over there, they worked a deal where the people pay for their health care, and the corporations don't have to.

It's the reason so many skilled labor jobs are booming in Canada and other Health care countries.

[slackmaster]

7. Europe is the new Europe

Seriously we will never be like Europe because we aren't Europe.

All of my ancestors left Europe because they were being oppressed there. Every one of them.

They have free healthcare
They have lower violent crime
They have a higher standard of living
They have 48 FUCKING DAYS OF VACATION A YEAR!!!
If you are out of a job, there is always the dole
If you are a college student, you get tuition, room and board for free

They have the Metric System too.

Back in the '60s Walt Disney was saying we'd have all that plus a 30-hour work week by 1980. We wuz robbed.

[Taverner]

8. Walt Disney was a strange bird

Personally anti-Semetic, yet went out of his way to help Jews resettle after WWII. Also had a very open hiring policy.
Was a Capitalist, but proposed EPCOT to be a Socialist Dream.
Was a Christian, yet wanted all religions to be encouraged in EPCOT.

And yes, we WUZ ROBBED!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. There really isnt' much evidence for Disney's anti-semitism.

Just heresay from the numerous enemies Disney made.

He was certainly a flawed character though.

[Taverner]

50. Flawed, but in the end I think he meant well

I wonder how much of his anti-semetism was just rudeness as opposed to actual hate.

He put in a lot of personal $$$ to rescue European Jews

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. I don't think there was any antisemitism at all.

Only allegations from people involved in various labor disputes, etc.

[kskiska]

92. Disney never "encouraged" religion in his projects

He went out of his way to not promote one religion over another. That's why there's no church on Main Street in Disneyland. He was brought up a Congregationalist, but did not attend church as an adult.

There's a scene in Pinocchio where a distraught Gepetto, fearing Pinocchio is dying, goes to the window and kneels down and looks up to the heavens, clasps his hands and - wishes upon a star!

[Taverner]

102. My guess is that if Disney was alive today he'd be a leading Leftist Dem Contributor

Probably would have supported Dean :)

[fujiyama]

139. Hard to say where he'd be politically...or of he would have changed

He was also involved in the HUAC and ratted out and accused several in the SAG of being communists...

[spinbaby]

15. Unfortunately, Walt Disney died

He had a very positive vision of the future. I miss it.

In other news, did you know that Sweden is a terrible socialist hellhole? I had a freeper tell me so once.

[Vilis Veritas]

53. My ancestors didn't leave...they were starved out.

I have no illusions as to where this country got it lust for Empire.

[Taverner]

59. It's that lust for Empire that eventually causes problems

England and France ended up piss-poor after WWII because of their lust for sustaining their Empires...
Germany imploded during and after WWII because of their lust for an Empire...
The Soviet Union and Bloc collapsed because of their lust for Empire (Afghanistan)...

Now the US is going back down that road again (we tried before under Teddy Roosevelt with Hawaii, Cuba, Phillipines and Puerto Rico.)

[Vilis Veritas]

61. And it is bankrupting this country all over again.

Tin hat projection: Dubai will be the capitol of the New World Order...

Heh, I feel funny today...perhaps it is the weather...or maybe it is the friggin land of OZ I found myself living in when I woke and saw that Waxman sent a letter!!!

WooHoo!!!! Another Letter!!!!

Go Congress, Go!!!

[Taverner]

62. Actually I think Beijing or Singapore will take that seat

It depends on how fast China can modernize, versus how limited Singapore can be on its island.

[Vilis Veritas]

67. Granted Beijing and Singapore are extermely important..

I just see Dubai positioning itself to be the pencil pushers and policy makers.

Just my un-informed opinion...

Peace.

[Taverner]

73. I can see that - they're definitely trying to prepare for that

Haliburton moving there, etc...

However, when the oil industry collapses, they will have to seal their borders. Friedman is right - the Mideast will become irrelevant when they run out of oil. And I won't shed a tear when they do...

[Vilis Veritas]

81. What better place to rule the NWO.

Behind walls and protected by vast deserts...and I disagree with Friedman that they will become irrelevant. People with vast amounts of money are NEVER irrelevant.

Running out of oil is still 20 or 30 years off, it will get scarce before then, which will further inflate their accounts. Remember, they are not storing oil, they are SELLING IT.

NWO needs lots of money to run the world.

20 or 30 years. Plenty of time to establish rule.

[Eurobabe]

128. My ancestors fled from Germany to America in the 1880s

and we fled back to Europe because we were being oppressed in the Land of Opportunity - which is by now a dried up well.

I love the smell of irony in the morning.

It REALLY sucks over here. :eyes:

[GeorgeGist]

9. Well perhaps because ...

most of Rwingers are descended from people who wanted to escape Europe for a better life.

You might consider escaping to Europe. And no I am not be facetious ... if I was younger, or if my children and grandchildren decide to escape to Europe or elsewhere, I would seriously consider it.

[Taverner]

10. Problem is I am doing fairly well here

I was lucky enough to benefit from the Capitalist system. Not everyone else has my luck. And yes, it was luck. We all work hard - hard work has nothing to do with it. I was lucky to be working hard at a time when a window of opportunity came my way.

[ShortnFiery]

18. Excellent point. But it's going to get much worse for all but the Upper Middle Class.

Perhaps you can remain in the Merchant Class. If so, then the upcoming Depression may not effect you. It may not come in 5 or 10 years, but a horrific time is coming where, unless you have an investment portfolio that's beefed up, you'll be fighting the rest of us for the scraps.

Like the 1930s, but worse (globalization). Sooner, rather than later the Peasant Classes throughout the Capitalistic - Totalitarian world will begin to rebel ... and it will NOT be pretty. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

11. I'll tell you why, because the right wingers and new way dems DETEST any of "the feminine"

I know that I'm stereotyping here but I suggest that, in addition to the STRONG homophobic American Culture, our Political Leaders (mostly on the right but also the DLC) OPENLY disdain showing any of the stereotypically lauded traits of Famous HUMANITARIAN Women.

Even the men who show compassion for those who are not as blessed as many of us within The Middle Class are outright emasculated. They call Dennis Kucinich "elf like" and make fun of his beautiful red headed wife perhaps being able to overpower him.

It won't be until we truly EMBRACE the fact that "showing compassion" and "CARING" are not traits to be feared but what makes a *truly* Great Nation.

Anyone can pump themselves up to physically kick your a**, but can they care for their family? Do we have the desire, as a nation, to treat all people fairly?

IMO the right wing is still successful in keeping Americans frightened enough to, with a few notable exceptions (Dennis Kucinich, John McDermott, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Loretta Sanchez, Bernie Sanders, etc.) to want strictly macho DADDY-type traits exuded from our Representatives.

Until we VALUE the gifts that traditionally feminine traits have contributed to this country, I FEAR, to put it bluntly: America, as a nation, will continue our "scorched earth policy" of tear-a**ing around the World looking to blow-up shit. :shrug:

I don't see the realization of a great TRUISM soon: Addressing the "horrid thought" of genuinely behaving like a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Paganist, Humanitarian, etc. = exercising our now stereotyped maternal instincts of caring for humanity and our MOTHER earth ... well ... it will just be "more of the same." :(

[kestrel91316]

13. 'Cause they're "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"!!1!!!!11!!

[ShortnFiery]

17. I know you're joking, but those surrender monkeys enjoy a HIGH quality of life.

:shrug:

Makes me want to sneak into the luggage of my best friend (French Citizen married to an American) when she goes to visit her family this summer. :blush:

[geardaddy]

80. But why did they elect a right-winger as president?

Instead of Royale a compassionate Socialist?

[slackmaster]

107. Sarkozy is nowhere near the equivalent of a US right-winger

n/t

[geardaddy]

134. Thanks for the clarification.

I wasn't sure how "conservative" Sarkozy was.

[kestrel91316]

88. I know. I went to France shortly before 9-11. I have wanted to go

back there permanently since this war started.......

[JVS]

14. Because our society did not spend the first half of the 20th century putting itself...

througha meatgrinder and then decide to say "fuck it" and be willing to settle for second-rate power status.

[eridani]

110. The good news is that that proves you can actually learn something from history n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

16. because we're "free"-

and everybody hates us for that.

including ourselves.

:shrug:

[no_hypocrisy]

19. That's an easy answer: B/c we're better than everyone else.

To be like Europe would be a step downwards or at least to concede parity with them, which is UNTHINKABLE.

Plus Europe is more democratic than we are. We wouldn't want to redistribute power and money to the masses and destroy the natural order of things.

:sarcasm:

[Progressive_In_NC]

20. They are only a few decades away from Sharia Law....

Just give it time. The christian folks stopped reproducing at a high rate, but the muslim folks keep pouring in from the South and bring that Islam with them.

We may have geographically lucked out on that one.


***************edited to properly frame the debate -- and to hopefully not offend anyone ***********************

[Taverner]

25. Ummmm...Freeper?

[Progressive_In_NC]

31. ummmm Nope

Never have been; never will be. But in travelling to England and France for business I can tell you that they are on a crash course for a major culture shift.

London itself is beginning to look downright Pakistani in parts, and France is offering to pay folks to leave and go back to North Africa. It's a trend all over, the white folks with the money and the power are making choices to have fewer and fewer children. The rest of the world (minus China) is reproducing at a much higher rate. At some point a shift will occur, and since those cultures are NOT meshing much at this point, non-christian religion is going to play a huge part in European law going forward in the near future.

My wife is beautiful, I for one wouldn't want her to cover up from head to toe.

Thanks BTW, you're the first person to accuse me of Freeperism. I was wondering how long that would take.

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. "London itself is beginning to look downright Pakistani in parts"

And there's no city in the USA with areas dominated by an ethnicity that's a minority in the country as a whole? Or in loads of countries round the world?

Pakistanis make up approximately 1.3% of the UK population. It's a population younger than average, so it will increase. Who knows, maybe to perhaps 5% of the population, given a few decades.

Why you think your observation about some area of London is relevant to your ridiculous claim of imminent Sharia law in Europe, I can't tell. Feel free to actually show some evidence for this huge claim, if you want to be taken seriously.

[Progressive_In_NC]

106. See you're right

http://www.guardian.co.uk/graphic/0,5812,1395103,00.html

The problem is I was in the center city. It appears from the graphic above that "White Flight" has become a problem in London as well.

I guess my claim was from a pretty limited view of the city to be honest. And from co-workers who have complained about it.

[MadHound]

27. Umm, I am fully aware that Europe is having problems with mass immigration

But they are a far cry from being subject to Sharia law anytime in the near, or far future. I think that if you investigate the history of immigration into post WWII Europe, you will find that their assimilation record is no worse and possibly better than ours. As far as your referencing "white" and "brown" folks in the manner that you did, well, I think that says a lot right there, and none of it good. For your information, you will find throughout Europe and around the world there are million of white Muslims also. Are they OK with you, or do you find them as "distasteful" as all Muslims? Surely you realize that it is only the fundementalist Muslims, much like fundementalist Christians, who are advocating a return to religious law.

Oh, do you realize Muslims are one of the largest immigrant groups coming to the US? Perhaps you should meet a few, get to know them, find out that Muslims are just like the rest of us, some good, some bad. Then perhaps you can get rid of this attitude of yours.

[Progressive_In_NC]

41. From reading DU since I got here, I thought that was the way everyone referred to people in the

immigration debate.

I do know Muslims. One of my best friends is from Lebanon and lives just up the street from me. He is about as Moderate as you could get in following religious law; but he hates American culture (at least the "bad" parts of it, and thinks suicide bombings in Israel are necessary).

For the record, I despise fundamentalist christians too. And I think they are mostly white.

[BlooInBloo]

65. Ah yes. "One of my best friends". That's a clincher.

[TheMadHatter]

85. Wow, are you jerk life this in real life?

Or is the snarkiness only when nobody can punch you in the face?

[BlooInBloo]

86. LOL! Oh no -- another one. Well, cmon and punch me if you like - I'll be at the Elysian tonite.

[malaise]

136. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I was waiting for it

[Progressive_In_NC]

55. I work for a french telecommunications company with offices in the US

The last time I attended meetings in Paris (about three months ago), all the folks there could talk about was how Immigration and the immigrants religion was changing the country -- and in there opinion not for the better.

They kept talking about how assimilation wasn't occuring this time in their opinion. My response was to give it time and see. It may take a few generations. Their answer was that the flip side was that immigration continued unchecked and everything slid to that end of the scale.

The interesting thing is that France isn't the only country facing these issues. The world she is a changing, and it's really interesting to watch.

Dear Lord, I don't find any muslims distateful. it's the fundamentalist part of the religion that I find so distateful (just like Christianity).

[Taverner]

60. France has a racist thread that runs in their culture

Just look at the near success of LePen.

[geardaddy]

83. And they have a horrible position on language

in France regarding minority languages.

[smirkymonkey]

116. Actually I have heard the same complaint from a lot of my

Scandinavian (and Dutch) friends as well. They said their countries are getting more violent and dirtier and they feel their "tolerant" way of life is not be "tolerated" by the immigrant popluations.

[Iris]

30. What an ironic post for someone with the word "progressive" in his moniker. n/t

[Progressive_In_NC]

34. Why? We are getting our share of new folks from the South

I don't begrudge any of them being here. I am thankful though that our new neighbors don't adhere to a fundamentalist religion as much as I hate that stuff (whether it be Christian, Muslim or Hindu (if there are fundamentalist Hindus).

Religion is the problem here, not the skin color.

[Iris]

46. ok. I see where you're coming from. n/t

[mr blur]

35. Are you an idiot, or just "proudly" white?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Progressive_In_NC]

42. neither, just watching change as it sweeps the world....

It's coming, and there's not much we can do about it.

[BlooInBloo]

44. Is it just me, or does it seem like they're just getting bolder and bolder?

I do understand the mods are overworked and donating their time, too.


(If the very idea of me being a mod weren't so laughable, I'd sign up in a heartbeat.)

[unpossibles]

54. you have to be kidding me

yes, there are a lot of immigrants there, and yes a lot of them are Muslim, but your "point" sounds a lot like the typical rightwing talking points a friend of mine always makes. maybe you don't mean it to, but it does.

First of all, may people are neither Christian nor Muslim. Second of all, who the fuck cares who is breeding? The best way to counter ignorance of any stripe is through education and enlightenment, not through breeding. If the "Christians" (ie: white folk) there aren't overbreeding (which I am doubtful of), then that is a good thing, or at least a good start, imo.

I'm sorry to be rude, but.... your comment is still very xenophobic.

[AndyTiedye]

126. Seems a Good Argument for Separation of Church and State

[China_cat]

21. You forgot the excellent public transportation systems.

[moondust]

39. Yes! Don't need a car!

At least most people don't. Public transportation is clean and not ridden with crime. Everybody uses it so it tends to strengthen social ties and build tolerance and respect in general. More exercise, too, walking to the bus stop or underground station. (Much less obesity in Europe.) And it's infinitely more interesting watching people in the Metro or the U-Bahn or the Underground than sitting in traffic staring at the license plate in front of you, eyes burning from the fumes.

Americans have been screwed again and again on many fronts by greedy pigs.

[baldguy]

23. But...but...They eat CHEESE and drink WINE for fuck's sake!

Why would you want to do that?!?

[LSK]

24. because people still think it is 1947

[Matsubara]

29. Because they have bad hair...

Sorry...

[BlooInBloo]

32. the FINAL countdown!!!!! Ahh... 80s melodrama-rock. It was beautiful.

[Iris]

37. yeah. Now I've got an earworm that just won't quit!

:crazy:

[Phredicles]

43. Have you SEEN Europe? There's FRENCH people over there.

In fact I hear they got this one country that's FULL of 'em. And if it's French, it must be bad. And if it's good then by definition good is therefore bad.

[Solo_in_MD]

56. There are some fundemental differences in culture and orientation that prevent that

[Taverner]

57. Such as?

[Solon]

94. Don't expect an answer...

While American Culture is different from much of Europe, they also share many similarities, which should be no surprise, most of our population has ancestors from over there, after all. Besides, none of this has any relevance to Universal Health Care, Government provided college or vocational education, public transportation, etc. These are RECENT developments in Europe, more related to the aftermath of WWII than any "cultural" attributes. If the United States ended up just as devastated by that war as Europe was, then perhaps we would have pulled together in the same fashion. Not saying I wish the U.S. was devastated in that manner, just saying it could be one of the reasons for the Europe's pulling together, in various different ways.

The fact of the matter is that many Europeans have parents or grandparents who lived under the worse conditions possible for humans to live under, many had suffered from the deprecations of dictatorship, total war, bombings in their cities, etc. Americans haven't suffered anything of that sort for over 150 years, its out of our living memory.

[Taverner]

100. Well in these areas Europe has proved measurable results in terms of progress

We have not. Kind of reminds me of the evolution of television. Australia was a latecomer to the world of TV. They had B&W TV up until the late 70's. When they standardized they went with a pretty high resolution as was the technology of the day. As a result the TV is much sharper than it is here, save for HDTV.

Same goes for Democracy.

[eridani]

113. Bingo

After several centuries of rampaging around the world and kicking the shit out of each other, they decided that they'd better cut it out before they went down the tubes entirely. The good news here is that we have a solid demonstration of the fact that it really is possible to learn from history.

[dkofos]

58. My kind of hell. After watching Sicko and listening to the Brits,

French, Germans, and Canadians talk about their health care systems and their standard of living,
I found myself becoming jealous.

We could have it too. If we could just turn off the RW noise machine

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

72. Yeah, let's hit the streets and burn a few peoples' privately owned cars

That'll show the corporations who's boss.

You first, ProudDad. Just kindly spare the black Pathfinder so I can keep going to work.

[ProudDad]

120. You missed my point

The powers that be are afraid of the people in Europe. The burning cars was a worst case and they should only be the limos carrying our upper class masters.

What I'd really like to see is a mob with torches and pitchforks storming all the state houses and the Capital until those fucks give us what we want and need.

But the sheeple are asleeple here...

[JANdad]

69. Because Rush and Sean

Say that it is a BAAAAAAAD thing...

Don't know why, but they do...

[Mark_Pogue]

71. They respect LIFE a little more than us!

[Louie the XIV]

79. Europe has a different set of problems

Unemployment
Anti-Semitism
Xenophobia
Conflict with Islamic immigrants
bureaucracy
impotent and marginalized national governments

America and Europe are too different to say one is generically better then the other, either way Europeans and Americans should be thankful that we are blessed with such a high standard of living compared to the vast majority of the world.

[Retired AF Dem]

95. And another

Europeans arent having babies. I have seen some estimates that Europe won't contain Europeans in 70-100 years.

[Solon]

97. OK, WTF, so "Children of Men" is a documentary, but only affects Europeans?

This sounds like the worse of scare tactics, No Europeans in 70-100 years, what the fuck?

[Retired AF Dem]

98. It is an interesting subject study up on it

Why does Germany, France and others pay money for people to have children?

[Solon]

104. Because birth rates are low...

which is normal in nations that have high standards of living and have women who are empowered within them. This is no surprise, nor is it that alarming. However, at the same time, Europeans aren't going to go EXTINCT in a century, that's just stupid, even though the birth rate doesn't exceed the death rate, the population of Europeans will either decrease till they do match, and stay steady, or the trend could reverse in a decade or so.

The United States has a similar problem especially in regards to our white, non-Hispanic, population. In both cases, immigrants or non-white Europeans or Americans generally make up for it, either achieving population parity, or increasing the overall population. To be honest, I don't see a problem here, some people might, but its not something that can be solved through any government policy, outside of forced breeding programs for certain ethnic groups, and sterilization of other groups.

[DFW]

130. That's a misleading way of putting it

I have been stationed in Europe for 25+ years,
and my wife is European. The "Kindergeld," as
it is called in Germany, is not paying people
to have babies. It is to help out new parents so
their kids don't become an unbearable financial
burden. It is a post-war idea, and immigrants
from Turkey or Morocco get it too, if their kids
are born ten minutes after they are granted citizenship.

[eridani]

115. Neither are Japanese and East Asians.

This is an outbreak of sanity that needs to spread to the rest of the world, fast.

[smirkymonkey]

118. Hear, hear!

If we don't start keeping our population in check, Mother Nature is going to do it for us and it's goint to be a lot more painful and ugly.

[Solon]

96. Your right, they are different....

America has:

Underemployment(got a job, can't pay the bills, especially health care)
Anti-Latinoism(made up the word, but it fits)
Xenophobia(pretty much same thing)
Conflict with Mexican Immigrants
bureaucracy(private instead of public)
impotent and marginalized national legislature

We are way too different, I agree 100%. ;)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. "America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening

.... period of civilization." - Oscar Wilde

Pretty much sums it up.

[Odin2005]

90. The US has a strong Libertarian streak that Europe really doesn't have.

And that Libertarian streak was exploited by the Have-Mores.

[Horse with no Name]

91. BUT THEY DON'T HAVE BOOT STRAPS!!

;)

[treestar]

93. RW nutjobs always want us to be like Europe if it suits their agenda

For instance, when they want tort reform, they want us to be like England, where apparently nobody sues for negligence (they also want us to be more like Japan in that, where apparently you apologize to the one who injured you negligently for being injured).

Gun laws are the same.

But if another country does something they don't like, that's unAmurkan, and must be squashed.

[Retired AF Dem]

99. 48 days vacation?

Maybe for CEO's or other heads of business. I worked for a German company for four years. The first year (not after one year) I had 21 days vacation. I'm not complaining. :)

[Jed Dilligan]

101. Because we are one of the lands

that Europe conquered. Of course things aren't as good for us as it is in the countries that only conquered, never were conquered. A big reason for the existence this franchise, now called the United States, is extraction of natural resources and cash crop plantation agriculture. So of course the system has to be run by greedy profiteers, and manned by underpaid, under-cared-for, socially immobile peons. I don't know what the solution is, but with racism and slavery so deep in our bloodstream, I doubt we will ever achieve a European level of development as a single unified nation. Regional republics might work, though I'm afraid there would be war like in the Old Europe.

[Selatius]

103. Because we have A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM run with PRIVATE CASH instead of TAX DOLLARS.

You want to know why change comes slow to America? Those that I mentioned are the biggest reasons.

[Retired AF Dem]

108. Those are some great bennies

Another one I like is when you buy a house you pay a one time tax. No yearly property taxes. Man I thought that was great. What they dont tell you is if the town govt decides you need a new side walk you buy it. If the road needs to be redone you pay for it. New sewer lines laid, you pay for it. New power lines? You buy them. How many here can afford that? Taxes? Very high income tax, dog tax, TV tax, radio tax, 16% sales tax. I see people here every day crying about $3.00 a gallon gas prices. The average European would rejoice if gas prices dropped back down to three a gallon. No thanks, I lived in Europe for twenty years and I dont miss the high prices one bit.

On edit after reading post 111. I forgot about the church tax.

[DFW]

131. Not in Germany, not today, anyway

The Sales tax was just increased to 19% here, and it is
a miserable throwback to another era. If governments weren't
so addicted to it, it would be abolished. But we have never
been asked (or told) to pay for new sidewalks, power lines or
sewer renewal, although we have all of the above. Also, you
can avoid the church tax easily by just declaring you no longer
belong to the church. My wife "retired" from being Catholic
decades ago. Bingo, no more church tax.

The gas price does hurt (a lot--about $7 a gallon now), but the
distances to cover are short compared to North America, and we
don't notice it so much.

It is expensive here, but I don't find being stationed here any
more of a burden than living in a high-rent district like San Francisco
or Boston.

[Retired AF Dem]

138. Do you own a house?

In Nov 98 I bought a house, 56 Hauptstrasse, 66909 Steinbach. When I bought the house the road in front of if was being redone and new sidewalks on both sides of the road were being laid. After I signed the contract to buy the house I was presented a bill of DM 16,000 for the new side walk. Since the road was a Bundestrasse I was lucky and didnt have to pay for that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

109. They've already made all the mistakes we're making now.

Let's see:

Rebellions against an abusive theocracy, check
Rebellions against abusive royalty, check
Survived wars and bubonic plague, check
Assimilated with the natives, check
Have learned to make good chocolate, check

[Canuckistanian]

111. Those Europeans are Godless heathens

Well, except for the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the writing of the Bible and other insignificant things.

Heathens, all of them!

[smirkymonkey]

119. I just wish they'd let me the hell in.

I either have to find a spouse or go through the lengthy, complicated process of trying to get Italian citizenship via my paternal grandfather (who was born there - which I am working on, but there is no guarantee). It seems like it's a lot easier for Europeans to live and work over here than it is for us to go there.

I studied in Vienna in college and have traveled back to Europe many times, but I would love to live there again for a longer period of time - maybe permanently. I was so much happier and relaxed when I lived there. I really felt like I belonged there. Sorry if I offend any of the "USA - Love it or Leave it" types, but in every way I feel more comfortable in Europe than I do here.

[smoogatz]

121. Because our society is controlled by the military-industrial complex

which is anti-democratic at its core and views us as expendable drones who need to shut the fuck up and get back to work. That's why.

And you forgot about Europe's excellent public transportation, much lower incarceration rate despite the ban on capital punishment, earlier retirement, shorter workweek (35 hours in many places), much smaller rich/poor divide, healthier middle-class, not to mention the almost complete lack of anything resembling American-style poverty in much of western Europe and the UK. But then, they don't spend more on their military than the rest of the world combined.

[AndyTiedye]

123. We Don't Have the Wiring For That Kind of High-Density Living

The biggest reason people came here was because the old country was too crowded for them.
The original American Dream was a farm.
What sort of people dream of frontiers and farms?
Probably not the ones who love to be around people all the time.
Probably not the ones with the best social instincts and skills.
If our ancestors "fit in" were they were, they woulda stayed there.

We are a nation of misfits. We come from a long line of misfits.

[Louie the XIV]

124. These "misfits" have done pretty well for themselves

Forming the most powerful nation and economy in the history of the world.

I'm sure the Jews and Irish that came to this country came here because of their lack of social skills and not religious persecution and famine :eyes:

[Mythsaje]

127. America

The land of misfit toys.

It's got a certain ring to it, don't it?

[DFW]

132. It's easy to get carried away in either direction

And if you have only lived in one place, your perspective
is necessarily un-rounded.

I'll toss in my two euro cents, as I have lived on both
continents, although in Europe only in Spain and Germany,
and in the USA only in Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts
and Texas. There's a lot more of both continents out there.
I'll also mention that I have learned nine European languages,
initially for fun, later for my job. If you're spend a lot of
time somewhere, you're a jerk if you don't learn the local language,
period, in my view. It's one of the few things where I'm rigid in
my opinion.

I don't know anyplace where you get 48 days of paid vacation, but in
Germany, it's six weeks, or 30 working days. I give the guys that work
under me (I am station chief for Europe for my little outfit) the right
to take whatever they want, and they don't abuse the privilege, but we're
obviously very specialized, and not exactly numerous. I'll include that my
superiors stateside accord me the same courtesy, which is DEFINITELY not
typical, and I also do not abuse the privilege.

The system here is straining due to all the benefits they offer. Even in
Germany, students are gradually being asked to share in the costs. Of course,
Americans will burst out laughing when they hear that German students took to
the streets when asked told they might have to pay $675 a semester toward their
college educations, except in cases of financial hardship (!!). Even so, they
look at the USA and marvel that anyone can afford anything. We grew up under
different systems, and both are a little hard to grasp at first glance.

NC Progressive was knocked a bit, I saw, for mentioning the problem of Muslims
here. Europe is not going to suffer under Sharia law or become 70% or even 30%
Muslim in the foreseeable future, but SOME Muslims here are a problem, there's no
denying it. Here in Germany, many Turks have integrated perfectly, but some still
kill their women for befriending German boys, and some even kill them and then
take the next plane home to avoid prosecution. In Berlin, one shot his sister to
death on the street in an "honor" killing, and the Turkish kids in a nearby school
all burst into applause and cheering when they heard about it in class.

In Belgium, the Moroccan immigrants (especially the unemployed youth) are under an
unofficial government protection edict. They may not be arrested for (nearly) anything, and
if so, they are to be let free, and the media may report the crime, but not the ethnicity
of the perpetrator if he was an Arab. I know, I know, this sounds totally hyped up.
It's not. I'm there once a week, and deal only with locals, and speak French and Flemish.
Once a Belgian kid was knifed to death for not giving up his iPod fast enough right
in the Central Train Station. When it turned out the assailants were Romanian, the news
media enthusiastically reported that the assailants were NOT Moroccan.

The whole idea in Belgium (and in Holland) was to protect the growing population of Muslim
immigrants from prejudice brought on by negative reports in the media. The effect was the
opposite, sparking increasing resentment in the local populations, and giving rise to racist
and neo-fascist movements like the Vlaamse Bloc in Belgium that under normal standards should
have been reduced to a fringe movement that held rallies for 15 supporters on holidays.

My wife is a social worker in Germany. She sometimes refers battered Muslim women to shelters,
and their men usually come angrily demanding to know where they are. She tells them to get
lost, obviously, but some Turkish girls she has tried to help have suddenly disappeared, only
to return 18 months later, married to a non-German-speaking stranger, wearing a veil and pregnant,
and basically extremely unhappy to be alive.

We haven't yet overcome racism in the USA, so the prospects of this whole situation calming
down in the near future is dim. However, the vast majority of Muslim immigrants are thoroughly
against the fanatics. The sticking point is, they are terrified of speaking out themselves, and
until they do en masse, the problem will continue to grow. Until the insane "worker protection"
laws that financially penalize European employers for hiring people are liberalized (Sarkozy said
he wants to reform these in France, and the Unions want his blood for it) unemployment will remain
high here, and the last people to be hired are always immigrant Muslim youths. If they aren't
at work, speaking the local language, they are on the streets among themselves speaking Arabic
or Turkish. No wonder there is trouble. This is not social rocket science.

OK, I have spent enough time on that, but to deny that there is a problem is just as wrong as
saying it is overwhelming. There IS a problem. It is NOT overwhelming.

On the negative side: the weather (here in the Rheinland) often sucks. The Europeans have this
tendency to be overly bureaucratic about everything, and they complain about it, but don't seem
to be able to fix it--very frustrating. It's expensive, taxes are high, and services you get for
it are sometimes less than what you'd expect. Also, it's relatively crowded (to me, but I'm used
to space--someone from Manhattan might think I'm nuts).

On the plus side: public transportation is, in most places, amazingly good, though not cheap.
In Washington, DC, you can ride the metro from West Falls Church to New Carrolton, an hour trip,
for less than it'll cost you to go from Düsseldorf to Leverkusen (a 15 minute trip). Medical care
and education are either included in the price of your birth certificate, or close to it. Gas is
expensive, but the condition of the roads is impeccable (at least here in Germany). Violent crime
is MOSTLY less, although if you walk around alone as a white person in Arab areas of Belgium or
Holland, you are asking for trouble, and your aggressors enjoy immunity from prosecution, and they
know it, so they show no mercy. But most white people don't go for a stroll in Watts, either.

I like my time when I'm back Stateside, I like my work here. Our kids are half and half, and can
switch in mid-sentence from being German-speaking Rheinlanders to "Amurriken"-speaking Americans. My wife and I took special care to raise them as both, and we think we did OK. The only things that
really pisses our girls off are violence and intolerance. And that's neither American nor European.
That's just human--the best kind. I don't blame anyone for finding out they fit in somewhere else
than where they were born or grew up. The only people I have a problem taking seriously are the
ones, no matter where they are, who say that their place is the best on earth. If they LIKE it
best where they are, fine, but there are quite a few places out there on this planet. To say any
one of them is better than all the rest seems like a rather limited point of view. If an Eskimo
from Greenland meets a Bushman from the Kalahari and they start an argument about which of them lives in a better place, which of them is right?

America is OK, Europe is OK--both have their good points, both have a lot of room for improvement.

[Ghost Dog]

135. I view these as very useful observations/comments, from your well-described point of view, DFW.

Thanks. You are apparently more multi-lingual and multi-cultural than I am.

Perhaps, I prefer to go deeper in a few places, rather than wider in many; although I am (see below) open. I would recommend, always, a much greater emphasis on (for those who are not aware) the very great diversity in Europa: among 'nations' but also within many of them, by regions, and by long history.

Myself, a self-exiled 'Brit' (mixed blood), after Ireland and then France, I chose Spain (or she chose me) (The (many) Spains: Las Españas). The most socialy imaginative culture(s) I know. Half my fifty-year old life now. Catalonia, Baleares and Canarias. The Mediterrenean world (on all sides, all times) is not quite the same as... further north. When Beirut was bombed, it could have been Barcelona, again.

I would be interested (for the sake of knowng many takes on 'reality') to listen to your impressions from your time in (also longtime very mixed-blood, of course) Spain.

[pork medley]

133. we live in relative geographic isolation (fenced off by two oceans)

plus america hasnt been really war-ravaged since the civil war

[Jonathan50]

137. Because we are circumcised and they are not..

It's that simple.. :)