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what would it take to appeal to most "third party splinsters",

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:36 PM
Original message
Poll question: what would it take to appeal to most "third party splinsters",
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 09:39 PM by ulysses
or whatever the term is...?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. An understanding that even a marginal improvement in millions of lives is no small thing
Also, an understanding that refusing to contribute to the system is a sure way to make it move even further away from you, thus justifying non-participation even more. Giving up your influence in a system and then expecting it to change because it "needs" you is total silliness. The system will just look for someone else to please. If all the third party people want is to feel superior to corrupt and ambitious people, well, they'll always have that.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. a marginal improvement in shit is still shit.
And we're lucky to give anyone that these days.

Giving up your influence in a system and then expecting it to change because it "needs" you is total silliness.

Who is giving up influence? What's the difference between a progressive Dem threatening to vote third party and a Blue Dog Dem threatening to vote GOP? Influence and power.

The system will just look for someone else to please.

Hasn't it already?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Threatening to bolt when you can be replaced is strategically stupid
Working within to change the party (like Kucinich) can make progress. All the progressive elements of the party gain voice when the party is in majority. Is it a perfect world for people whose entire existence is a hard-on for minutiae like the Taft Hartley act? Nope. But it makes it easier for millions to survive. Is it better to reject that so one can smugly throw bombs to no purpose on the sidelines, secure in a sense of superiority that only comes with being totally unable to influence anything (like Nader)?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. who can't be replaced?
Ask wyldwolf - the left has never mattered to the party. Ipso facto, my vote doesn't matter. They don't care.

All the progressive elements of the party gain voice when the party is in majority.

Demonstrable bs. The party has the majority in Congress. What's happening?

Is it a perfect world for people whose entire existence is a hard-on for minutiae like the Taft Hartley act?

I've seen you describe this "hard-on" before. I'm not sure what your point is.

But it makes it easier for millions to survive.'

How? Fucking how?

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Political parties just want power. If they see a group as unnecessary, they won't care about it
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 11:40 PM by jpgray
Third party voters don't matter because they don't use their vote in a way that affects anything. The best candidate in the world that has no chance of acquiring office is totally useless on a strategic level. Democrats as a party will go on as parties always have, following ambition and consolidation of power. Lefties don't matter too much insofar as their demands are unreasonable in terms of our current money-based campaign system, and they are seen as replaceable with centrists. As lefties abandon the Democratic party, it drifts farther and farther right to net those voters. You are responsible for that drift. The fewer activists within the party that support worker's rights, the less the party cares about such things. Kucinich and many other economic progressives are doing their utmost to change the party. You've abandoned them through over-generalizations and oversimplifications. How pleasing it is to say the whole party is rotten because it doesn't do enough for you, starving the very people within it who can do what you want of influence. No third party figure has that power--to actually do anything but talk. Having no need to back up their talk, they can play the tune you are happy to ineffectually dance to. How easy it is to delude oneself into believing empty talk no one hears is action.

The majority in Congress has already passed a minimum wage increase. Do you have any idea how many millions that makes a better life for? No, we must be big picture, we must have the view that eliminates all small differences that change so many lives. Why? Because we must pretend we are too good for the system, and thus we will never affect that system. How idiotic this line of thinking is.

The point of describing the minutiae of Taft Hartley, etc., is that some third party lefties have focused on issues that ease their hearts when they say all politicians are the same and that abandoning the system is only wise. They may as well go big picture all the way and starve themselves--why attach oneself to slave-produced clothes, or use resources that global slavery of poorer nations produces? If you were truly pure, you would give up your selfish consumption of energy that is only brought about by inequality. Yet instead you preen and pretend to be holier than politicians. How brave of you.

Gore in office would have saved millions. Both domestically and abroad. If you can't see that, continue to be a subculture jerkoff who espouses values in a way that never takes them anywhere. I'd follow Kucinich's example and put those values in places they actually may find purchase, such as Congress.

I hold the same values a lot of third party leftists hold, based on their posts, but the way they go about implementing those values is so intensely stupid on a strategic level it's tempting to write all of them off as self-obsessed preening douchebags. In other words, no different from politicians, but unable to effect any change. You're one of my favorite posters, but this thinking pisses me off to no end.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. you just said it.
If they see a group as unnecessary, they won't care about it

You're talking third-party voters. I'm talking progressives.

Lefties don't matter too much insofar as their demands are unreasonable in terms of our current money-based campaign system, and they are seen as replaceable with centrists.

Then let them do it and quit pestering me about my vote.

I hold the same values a lot of third party leftists hold, based on their posts, but the way they go about implementing those values is so intensely stupid on a strategic level it's tempting to write all of them off as self-obsessed preening douchebags. In other words, no different from politicians, but unable to effect any change. You're one of my favorite posters, but this thinking pisses me off to no end.

I've voted non-Dem *twice* in my entire life, and haven't gotten much of a bag of shit for the loyalty. No, the third-party votes haven't gotten me much either, but what's your suggestion?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Quit ignoring the elephant in the room
and quit backing down to wrong.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. "or whatever the term is...?"
Let me help -- the term is "half republican".
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. It does not matter
Our opinions are not welcome or allowed here. See RNC rules for public discourse.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm interested in all opinions
And I know progressive thinking is allowed according to DU rules. At this point in history though it is foolish to vote for a 3rd party candidate when there is no hope they will win, because that is what Republicans are counting on in order to kill us.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. "when there is no hope they will win"
Think about that for a second.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Be REAL progressives.
instead of chickenshits.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Splinsters are a bunch of whiny-ass crybabies
Fuck them, say I.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. your opinion is noted,
as is your "uncommitted" sig graphic.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Obvious sarcasm -- Go Ahead and Vote for the War party then...
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 11:49 PM by djohnson
Edit: Voting 3rd Party fulfills the prophecy: peace=war.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm still voting Democrat, but my vote is not owed nor is it a given
I'll never fault anyone for voting their concience, even to include those who vote *puke* republican. I will make my best argument and hope that it stands on it's own merits.
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. your choices suck. try getting us out of iraq, getting us health care and a living wage. oh, and
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 12:09 AM by HardRocker05
how about getting money out of politics so that the US govt actually serves the people.
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