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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:03 AM
Original message
Ever caused fear in another person?
Ugh what a horrible feeling. Today I was on my way to finish up a fence repair I have been working on and was driving past a big steel water storage tank we have for livestock water. Two guys (UDA's in the current parlance - UnDocumented Aliens) were trying to fill up a bunch of waterbottles and I guess, didn't hear me coming. When I got into view they took off running but I saw their faces. Abject fear. I would never hurt anybody or even call the Border Patrol on them (unless they were really trashing the place or butchering a cow or something) hell I would have left them some food if I had any with me.

I had to shut the water off but I left the backpack and all the waterbottles. There must have been a bigger bunch of people hiding down in the wash. I left a note that said "A little water is OK, please don't make a river on the ground or throw trash or cut the fences, please use gates. Good luck, be careful in Bush America.

I can't get the fear out of my mind.:(

Of course later a couple of BP guys tried to sneak up on me while I was working and I sent them in the wrong direction.:evilgrin:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Glad you didn't enjoy it. Some would. And it does suck.
Although I have to say, there are some I WISH would be afraid of me.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. well of course there are the teenagers in the house
fear is just a management technique with them. :rofl:
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. ......



:hug:
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. Do girlfriends afraid they were pregnant count? n/t
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. I expected this to be more...
technically you did not cause the fear. It was caused by xenophobic moron vigilantes who try to control pseudo-policy in the U.S. These are neighbors who should have no fear of visiting us.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. I've been in situations where it was necessary to appear frightening...
Or, at least, formidable. I have also learned the art of being unobtrusive and unimposing when necessary as well.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about scaring them, really. It wasn't anything you did, or didn't do. It was the circumstances of the meeting more than anything else. They were justifiably paranoid and you were as surprised by them as they were by you. Unfortunate, but simply one of those things we can't control.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. That was very kind of you....
good job.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. What are you?? Some kind of (EEK!) Humanitarian???
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Regularly, sometimes by intent, other times not
I'm 6-4 220lbs with a beard. That size and appearance does disturb some people

I ride motorcycles. Even nylon jackets, boots, etc seem to scare some people

I have been known to wear a kilt and that really freaks people

I have been known to challenge bureaucrats and educrats by threatening their power over me and in the case of educrats, students. Several times the fear was palpable, and I will admit that I savored it.

There have been times where that fear was followed by violence and a couple of time carnage. No apologies from me WRT to those incidents. Sometimes its what is needed to resolve the situation on a timely and permanent basis. Its also the basis for my opinion of islam and muslims

This does not count things like daughters' boyfriends, JWs or Mormons knocking on my door early Sat AM etc where creating fear is the natural state of things.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11.  So what is your opinion of islam and muslims?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Not a positive one
They issue threats and fatwas, abuse the weak and helpless, but run and hide when they face an adversary that can hold its own, be it Israel or a solo warrior. Misogynist cowards, the lot of them. See http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Solo_in_MD/1

Like I said, not positive...
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Man! The exact same issues i have with christianity! what a koinky-dink!
(well, to be honest, i have those issues with practically EVERY organized religion. So much so that it has occurred to me that the fault may not lie with religion per se, but more with the human psyche)

(and just to be really really clear, i think you are a bigot)
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. There is at least an order of magnitiude difference in the risk the fundie xtians pose to the rights
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 05:59 PM by Solo_in_MD
and freedoms of others compared to muslims. Its not even close. I gave an example in the my journal entry.

As for view of my position on islam, umbrage is free, take all you want. If you read my journal entry you should see that I have a basis for my position based on things that have happened in the real world within my family. Intellectualize to your heart's content, I am the one with the real world experience, both in the middle east and in the US. islam and the sharia is a threat to the rights and freedoms of all of us and needs to be stood up to at every opportunity.

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. sounds like a lot of christians and/or republicans to me...
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Not all that fond of them either, but they are a much lower risk than islam, muslims and the sharia
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes I agree that RW Christians are as dangerous as radicals
of any other religions. I just finished reading American Fascists by Chris Hedges. Make no mistake, these fundie Christians want us (liberals, feminists, atheists, Muslims, Jews and anyone not like them) DEAD. Maybe they don't say it to your face when they come to you door or you encounter them at work but the whole movement is a Holy War. No question about it.

Hell. they've already killed several hundred (McVeigh, Rudolph, Kopp, etc).
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. update, sort of
:( the backpack and waterbottles were still there this morning, nobody came back for them. And there was a new set of Border Patrol morons looking around.

these guys remind me of the narcs in the Freak Brothers comics.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. To quibble a bit: "UDA(s)"?
Usually, the more insensitive phrasing is "illegal alien" and goodhearts like you replace both words with better words. So "UDA" is halfway there, with "undocumented" for "illegal," but keeps "alien". The whole way might be something like "undocumented immigrant"?

I hope this is not irritating. I get irritated when somebody lectures me and hope this isn't lecturing.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. No prob - I meant that seems to be the term border Patrol is using these days
I usually call them migrants or Mexicans. Or just "guys" or "people".
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Poppycock
From 8 USC 1101...
(3) The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.

(15) The term “immigrant” means every alien except an alien who is within one of the following classes of nonimmigrant aliens—
(A)
(i) an ambassador, public minister, or career diplomatic or consular officer who has been accredited by a foreign government, recognized de jure by the United States and who is accepted by the President or by the Secretary of State, and the members of the alien’s immediate family;

(ii) upon a basis of reciprocity, other officials and employees who have been accredited by a foreign government recognized de jure by the United States, who are accepted by the Secretary of State, and the members of their immediate families; and

(iii) upon a basis of reciprocity, attendants, servants, personal employees, and members of their immediate families, of the officials and employees who have a nonimmigrant status under (i) and (ii) above;
(B) an alien (other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor or as a representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning and who is visiting the United States temporarily for business or temporarily for pleasure;

(C) an alien in immediate and continuous transit through the United States, or an alien who qualifies as a person entitled to pass in transit to and from the United Nations Headquarters District and foreign countries, under the provisions of paragraphs (3), (4), and (5) of section 11 of the Headquarters Agreement with the United Nations (61 Stat. 758);

(D)
(i) an alien crewman serving in good faith as such in a capacity required for normal operation and service on board a vessel, as defined in section 1288 (a) of this title (other than a fishing vessel having its home port or an operating base in the United States), or aircraft, who intends to land temporarily and solely in pursuit of his calling as a crewman and to depart from the United States with the vessel or aircraft on which he arrived or some other vessel or aircraft;

(ii) an alien crewman serving in good faith as such in any capacity required for normal operations and service aboard a fishing vessel having its home port or an operating base in the United States who intends to land temporarily in Guam and solely in pursuit of his calling as a crewman and to depart from Guam with the vessel on which he arrived;
(E) an alien entitled to enter the United States under and in pursuance of the provisions of a treaty of commerce and navigation between the United States and the foreign state of which he is a national, and the spouse and children of any such alien if accompanying or following to join him;
(i) solely to carry on substantial trade, including trade in services or trade in technology, principally between the United States and the foreign state of which he is a national;

(ii) solely to develop and direct the operations of an enterprise in which he has invested, or of an enterprise in which he is actively in the process of investing, a substantial amount of capital; or

(iii) solely to perform services in a specialty occupation in the United States if the alien is a national of the Commonwealth of Australia and with respect to whom the Secretary of Labor determines and certifies to the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Secretary of State that the intending employer has filed with the Secretary of Labor an attestation under section 1182 (t)(1) of this title;
(F)
(i) an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning, who is a bona fide student qualified to pursue a full course of study and who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing such a course of study consistent with section 1184 (l) <1> of this title at an established college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, or other academic institution or in a language training program in the United States, particularly designated by him and approved by the Attorney General after consultation with the Secretary of Education, which institution or place of study shall have agreed to report to the Attorney General the termination of attendance of each nonimmigrant student, and if any such institution of learning or place of study fails to make reports promptly the approval shall be withdrawn,

(ii) the alien spouse and minor children of any alien described in clause (i) if accompanying or following to join such an alien, and

(iii) an alien who is a national of Canada or Mexico, who maintains actual residence and place of abode in the country of nationality, who is described in clause (i) except that the alien’s qualifications for and actual course of study may be full or part-time, and who commutes to the United States institution or place of study from Canada or Mexico;
(G)
(i) a designated principal resident representative of a foreign government recognized de jure by the United States, which foreign government is a member of an international organization entitled to enjoy privileges, exemptions, and immunities as an international organization under the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669) <22 U.S.C. 288 et seq.>, accredited resident members of the staff of such representatives, and members of his or their immediate family;

(ii) other accredited representatives of such a foreign government to such international organizations, and the members of their immediate families;

(iii) an alien able to qualify under (i) or (ii) above except for the fact that the government of which such alien is an accredited representative is not recognized de jure by the United States, or that the government of which he is an accredited representative is not a member of such international organization; and the members of his immediate family;

(iv) officers, or employees of such international organizations, and the members of their immediate families;

(v) attendants, servants, and personal employees of any such representative, officer, or employee, and the members of the immediate families of such attendants, servants, and personal employees;
(H) an alien
(i)
<(a) Repealed. Pub. L. 106–95, § 2(c), Nov. 12, 1999, 113 Stat. 1316>

(b) subject to section 1182 (j)(2) of this title, who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform services (other than services described in subclause (a) during the period in which such subclause applies and other than services described in subclause (ii)(a) or in subparagraph (O) or (P)) in a specialty occupation described in section 1184 (i)(1) of this title or as a fashion model, who meets the requirements for the occupation specified in section 1184 (i)(2) of this title or, in the case of a fashion model, is of distinguished merit and ability, and with respect to whom the Secretary of Labor determines and certifies to the Attorney General that the intending employer has filed with the Secretary an application under section 1182 (n)(1) of this title, or (b1) who is entitled to enter the United States under and in pursuance of the provisions of an agreement listed in section 1184 (g)(8)(A) of this title, who is engaged in a specialty occupation described in section 1184 (i)(3) of this title, and with respect to whom the Secretary of Labor determines and certifies to the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Secretary of State that the intending employer has filed with the Secretary of Labor an attestation under section 1182 (t)(1) of this title, or

(c) who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform services as a registered nurse, who meets the qualifications described in section 1182 (m)(1) of this title, and with respect to whom the Secretary of Labor determines and certifies to the Attorney General that an unexpired attestation is on file and in effect under section 1182 (m)(2) of this title for the facility (as defined in section 1182 (m)(6) of this title) for which the alien will perform the services; or
(ii)
(a) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform agricultural labor or services, as defined by the Secretary of Labor in regulations and including agricultural labor defined in section 3121 (g) of title 26, agriculture as defined in section 203 (f) of title 29, and the pressing of apples for cider on a farm, of a temporary or seasonal nature, or

(b) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform other temporary service or labor if unemployed persons capable of performing such service or labor cannot be found in this country, but this clause shall not apply to graduates of medical schools coming to the United States to perform services as members of the medical profession; or
(iii) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States as a trainee, other than to receive graduate medical education or training, in a training program that is not designed primarily to provide productive employment; and the alien spouse and minor children of any such alien specified in this paragraph if accompanying him or following to join him;

(I) upon a basis of reciprocity, an alien who is a bona fide representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media, who seeks to enter the United States solely to engage in such vocation, and the spouse and children of such a representative, if accompanying or following to join him;

(J) an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is a bona fide student, scholar, trainee, teacher, professor, research assistant, specialist, or leader in a field of specialized knowledge or skill, or other person of similar description, who is coming temporarily to the United States as a participant in a program designated by the Director of the United States Information Agency, for the purpose of teaching, instructing or lecturing, studying, observing, conducting research, consulting, demonstrating special skills, or receiving training and who, if he is coming to the United States to participate in a program under which he will receive graduate medical education or training, also meets the requirements of section 1182 (j) of this title, and the alien spouse and minor children of any such alien if accompanying him or following to join him;

(K) subject to subsections (d) and (p) <2> of section 1184 of this title, an alien who—
(i) is the fiancee or fiance of a citizen of the United States and who seeks to enter the United States solely to conclude a valid marriage with the petitioner within ninety days after admission;

(ii) has concluded a valid marriage with a citizen of the United States who is the petitioner, is the beneficiary of a petition to accord a status under section 1151 (b)(2)(A)(i) of this title that was filed under section 1154 of this title by the petitioner, and seeks to enter the United States to await the approval of such petition and the availability to the alien of an immigrant visa; or

(iii) is the minor child of an alien described in clause (i) or (ii) and is accompanying, or following to join, the alien;
(L) subject to section 1184 (c)(2) of this title, an alien who, within 3 years preceding the time of his application for admission into the United States, has been employed continuously for one year by a firm or corporation or other legal entity or an affiliate or subsidiary thereof and who seeks to enter the United States temporarily in order to continue to render his services to the same employer or a subsidiary or affiliate thereof in a capacity that is managerial, executive, or involves specialized knowledge, and the alien spouse and minor children of any such alien if accompanying him or following to join him;

(M)
(i) an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution (other than in a language training program) in the United States particularly designated by him and approved by the Attorney General, after consultation with the Secretary of Education, which institution shall have agreed to report to the Attorney General the termination of attendance of each nonimmigrant nonacademic student and if any such institution fails to make reports promptly the approval shall be withdrawn,

(ii) the alien spouse and minor children of any alien described in clause (i) if accompanying or following to join such an alien, and

(iii) an alien who is a national of Canada or Mexico, who maintains actual residence and place of abode in the country of nationality, who is described in clause (i) except that the alien’s course of study may be full or part-time, and who commutes to the United States institution or place of study from Canada or Mexico;
(N)
(i) the parent of an alien accorded the status of special immigrant under paragraph (27)(I)(i) (or under analogous authority under paragraph (27)(L)), but only if and while the alien is a child, or

(ii) a child of such parent or of an alien accorded the status of a special immigrant under clause (ii), (iii), or (iv) of paragraph (27)(I) (or under analogous authority under paragraph (27)(L));
(O) an alien who—
(i) has extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics which has been demonstrated by sustained national or international acclaim or, with regard to motion picture and television productions a demonstrated record of extraordinary achievement, and whose achievements have been recognized in the field through extensive documentation, and seeks to enter the United States to continue work in the area of extraordinary ability; or
(ii)
(I) seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of accompanying and assisting in the artistic or athletic performance by an alien who is admitted under clause (i) for a specific event or events,

(II) is an integral part of such actual performance,

(III)
(a) has critical skills and experience with such alien which are not of a general nature and which cannot be performed by other individuals, or

(b) in the case of a motion picture or television production, has skills and experience with such alien which are not of a general nature and which are critical either based on a pre-existing longstanding working relationship or, with respect to the specific production, because significant production (including pre- and post-production work) will take place both inside and outside the United States and the continuing participation of the alien is essential to the successful completion of the production, and
(IV) has a foreign residence which the alien has no intention of abandoning; or
(iii) is the alien spouse or child of an alien described in clause (i) or (ii) and is accompanying, or following to join, the alien;
(P) an alien having a foreign residence which the alien has no intention of abandoning who—
(i)
(a) is described in section 1184 (c)(4)(A) of this title (relating to athletes), or

(b) is described in section 1184 (c)(4)(B) of this title (relating to entertainment groups);
(ii)
(I) performs as an artist or entertainer, individually or as part of a group, or is an integral part of the performance of such a group, and

(II) seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of performing as such an artist or entertainer or with such a group under a reciprocal exchange program which is between an organization or organizations in the United States and an organization or organizations in one or more foreign states and which provides for the temporary exchange of artists and entertainers, or groups of artists and entertainers;
(iii)
(I) performs as an artist or entertainer, individually or as part of a group, or is an integral part of the performance of such a group, and

(II) seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely to perform, teach, or coach as such an artist or entertainer or with such a group under a commercial or noncommercial program that is culturally unique; or
(iv) is the spouse or child of an alien described in clause (i), (ii), or (iii) and is accompanying, or following to join, the alien;
(Q)
(i) an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily (for a period not to exceed 15 months) to the United States as a participant in an international cultural exchange program approved by the Secretary of Homeland Security for the purpose of providing practical training, employment, and the sharing of the history, culture, and traditions of the country of the alien’s nationality and who will be employed under the same wages and working conditions as domestic workers; or

(ii)
(I) an alien citizen of the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland, 21 to 35 years of age, unemployed for not less than 12 months, and having a residence for not less than 18 months in Northern Ireland, or the counties of Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, and Donegal within the Republic of Ireland, which the alien has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily (for a period not to exceed 24 months) to the United States as a participant in a cultural and training program approved by the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Homeland Security under section 2(a) of the Irish Peace Process Cultural and Training Program Act of 1998 for the purpose of providing practical training, employment, and the experience of coexistence and conflict resolution in a diverse society, and

(II) the alien spouse and minor children of any such alien if accompanying the alien or following to join the alien;
(R) an alien, and the spouse and children of the alien if accompanying or following to join the alien, who—
(i) for the 2 years immediately preceding the time of application for admission, has been a member of a religious denomination having a bona fide nonprofit, religious organization in the United States; and

(ii) seeks to enter the United States for a period not to exceed 5 years to perform the work described in subclause (I), (II), or (III) of paragraph (27)(C)(ii);
(S) subject to section 1184 (k) of this title, an alien
(i) who the Attorney General determines—
(I) is in possession of critical reliable information concerning a criminal organization or enterprise;

(II) is willing to supply or has supplied such information to Federal or State law enforcement authorities or a Federal or State court; and

(III) whose presence in the United States the Attorney General determines is essential to the success of an authorized criminal investigation or the successful prosecution of an individual involved in the criminal organization or enterprise; or
(ii) who the Secretary of State and the Attorney General jointly determine—
(I) is in possession of critical reliable information concerning a terrorist organization, enterprise, or operation;

(II) is willing to supply or has supplied such information to Federal law enforcement authorities or a Federal court;

(III) will be or has been placed in danger as a result of providing such information; and

(IV) is eligible to receive a reward under section 2708 (a) of title 22,

<snip>

<etc.>

<etc.>


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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I don't want to speak for the other poster, but in general as with lots of concepts/words/phrases
in our language, some words gain meaning beyond original definitions and intent. Alien has inhuman connotations and the racists among us have begun to use it that way. Even "Mexican" can be said in a racist, bigoted way and it will be interesting to see how and what develops with that word as well. Many in the human/immigrant rights community object to the term "illegal" alien or immigrant because it is so dehumanizing - how can a human being be illegal?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Just because Hannity or Limbaugh says "liberal" with a sneer desn't mean I'm not a liberal!
I refuse to give hate-mongers that control over language. The proper, legal term is "alien"! That's the term for ME when I visit Canada or Mexico or France or Tahiti and that's the legal term for citizens of another country in this country. Period.

As far as the term "immigrant' is concerned, it's INACCURATE and misleading to call someone who evades the law and comes to another country with no intention of making it his or her home. MANY of the people, including "guest workers," are not even close to being "immigrants." Using that as a broad brush label for all illegal aliens is outright propaganda - intellectually dishonest and deceitful.

When people who use such language properly and neutrally are criticized and demeaned for doing so, it's rude and uncivil.

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. that is why I use migrant - as in migration - movement from one place to another
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 07:53 PM by Kali
no legal implication, no disparagement (yet) and still accurate. There is a phenomenal HUMAN migration occurring in my area. And it be discussed in terms that are not politicized.


damn spell check again. can we set it to be automatic?
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