What is Democrats excuse for not impeaching at least Cheney in light of his defiance of oversight?

[yurbud]

Even their flawed Machiavellian argument for leaving a wounded Bush in place until 2008 shouldn't prevent them from removing Cheney.

Admittedly, Bush may replace him with someone marginally likable and give them a boost toward the presidency as happened with Ford when Nixon appointed him, but that seems far outweighed by the need to hold these guys accountable for their actions, and to short-circuit any effort to start a war with Iran that could escalate to a World War with Russia and China.

[Kagemusha]

1. Because it's not personal to Cheney.

The claim is being made for the office, not the man. Therefore, it is the office that must be dealt with. The threat of de-funding the office of the VP is a good approach.

[MADem]

5. Aww, stop making sense!!

You're using LOGIC!!

Seriously, I do think it's a great technique...!

[Phredicles]

6. But is this de-funding something we're serious about?

I've heard confilcting things, even though you'd think our mighty brain trust has at least figured out by now that talking big and not following through is even worse than sitting there like schmucks in the eyes of the public.

[Kagemusha]

19. Look, what Cheney is trying to pull here is really serious.

It's an immense affront to constitutional republican (small r) government. Notwithstanding Cheney's delusions of grandeur, the VP is not guaranteed an office and staff at all; these are things provided by the grace of Congress, not because the Vice-President has any vital regular role. If anyone starts crying that de-funding the VP office is going to get troops killed, it'll raise a lot of very strange, awkward questions about what the bloody hell the VP is really doing that's not in his job description.

So why the hell not seriously threaten it? It's the legitimate job of Congress to do so.

[Phredicles]

20. My point is just, if you're going to threaten it, you better be ready to DO it, too.

Our intrepid leaders seem somewhat hazy on that point.

[Kagemusha]

24. Point taken. But the cost to them is so much less than 'defunding the troops'

they'd really better be serious.

Edit: Mind you, I don't think anything will come of it, only because it is freaking obvious that the office of the VP **IS** part of the Executive Branch, stupid legal claims notwithstanding.

[OzarkDem]

33. Disagree

True leadership means knowing how to lead the fight - others will follow.

If you don't bother to lead, how do you expect to gain support from others?

[napi21]

51. I'm not sure they COULD defund the VP's office.

For now at least, it's fully funded until the end of this fiscal year. I'd also be quite surprised if a budget submitted to Congress gives details down to that level. My guess is that it's shown as part of WH general budget.

Sounds like a good idea, but I don't think it's a practical action.

[yurbud]

8. so we'll need a demolition crew to put his office in prison. But will Bush pardon his paperweight?

[OzarkDem]

32. Possible problem with that

By defunding his office, it also inadvertently validates Cheney's claim.

[Phredicles]

2. "We don't have the votes. It'd be divisive. It'd energize their base...

Plus, all this accountability talk makes us crap our pants.":eyes::grr:


PS - "It'd dampen our powder, the dryness of which is the most important thing in the world. It just is.":eyes::eyes:

[yurbud]

9. My poem on the occasion of every Democrat surrender:

I wrote this a while back. I was hoping it would be irrelevant by now.

One thing I should change: it aint one tiny keg of powder--it's a semi-trailer full, but they still won't fire a shot.



___________________________________

the Parable of the Dry Powder

During the American Revolution, Colonel Harry Reid was sent to gaurd a mountain pass.
He had twenty men, the high ground, and a good view of all possible routes of attack,
but just one small keg of gunpowder for all their muskets blasts.

Each soldier would have powder to let just ten bullets fly.
General Washington gave thought to this when he bid them good-bye.
He said, "Take care boys, and keep your powder dry!"
He would soon regret those words for they led good men to die.

One night as Reid's boys were sitting around the campfire at their post up in the pass,
a grizzly bear got scent of them and into their camp crashed.
Johnny grabbed his musket and aimed at the bear's boulder of a head,
but before he squeezed the trigger, Col. Reid jumped up and said,
"Stand fast! Our bullets are for Redcoats, save our powder for them instead!"
Johnny held his fire and the bear tore out his throat.

As the bear began to eat him, the other soldiers grabbed their guns,
but Reid said, "Fight him if you must, but no bullets should let fly!
Washington has ordered we must keep our powder dry."

So they turned their muskets round and swatted with the butts,
they pulled their Bowie knives and they tried to slash his guts.
The bear just took the beating, but he would stand the cuts.
He turned on his attackers clawing flesh and chewing heads.
By the time that he was finished, half Reid's men were lying dead.

Reid thought it a victory for that keg was tight and dry.
Every bit of powder meant another Redcoat boy would die.

When the dead were buried, and the night lightened to day,
The watch saw Indians approaching with warpaint and sharpened blades.
Bob whispered to Reid, "They are fighting for the crown."
"That may be so," said Reid, "but when Redcoats come around,
we need every bit of powder to shoot each soldier down."

Bob was going to answer when a bullet hit his lung.
The Indians weren't as stingy with their own powder drum.
Harry took the powder and he began to run.
Half his men were killed again,
just five left from when he had begun.

"Now we can fight," he said.
"We have plenty for each gun."

As the day was fading and they lay up there in wait,
a half dozen Redcoats approached them, lined up perfect in their sights.

Tom pulled back his hammer and almost fired a shot,
but Harry grabbed his barrel and said this squad need not be fought.
"A bigger army's coming, and no powder can be lost."

"But if we all are dead, then who will fire the shot?"
Tom tried to wrest rifle, but in the struggle it went off.
The Redcoats were upon them, and then all five were caught.


While he tied their hands, the British sargeant asked why they hadn't fired a shot.
Harry Reid said nice and loudly, "I cannot tell a lie,
Gen. Washington himself told me to keep my powder dry."

"But if you shot the bear, your men would have lived to fight.
And if you shot the Indians, and put a bullet in my eye,
you could have stole our powder and have more to be kept dry."


The soldier took his bayonet, and Harry had to die.
But he cut loose the others and told them all to fly,
and he even gave them the powder keg
with Reid's head in it to keep the powder dry.

[OzarkDem]

36. Good poem!

An important lesson, one which is still lost on our Dem leaders.

[yurbud]

40. unless their job is to be the Washington Generals to GOP Globetrotters.

[mmonk]

3. Be patient. They will say.

[MikeNearMcChord]

11. Yep! As sadly as we get marched to

the Haliburton Happy Camp Known as Camp Cheney or the Richard B. Cheney Patriotic Attitude Enhancement Correctional Facility. Building the George W. Bush Patriot Canal from the Great Lakes to Texas. Work Comrades! Enhance our fervor to Master Great Comrade Cheney and Great Comrade Booosh!

[bigtree]

15. bull forward, no matter what the consequences, no matter if it doesn't convict

others will say

[sakkatta]

4. they want to be just as corrupt

when Dems get the White House back, they want to be unaccountable.
I am very depressed and have lost all hope.

[renate]

14. welcome to DU!

NGU (never give up)!

[mmonk]

43. Don't lose hope. It's all that is left.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. We don't have the votes

(and they don't, for the moment) but they won't if they don't take the damn risk

And by not doing it, they have taken that damn loaded and coked gun and aimed firly at their toes.

Oh and yes, there is this Stockholm syndrome, DC insider going but if they don't... the price will be so high they cannot even envision it

[theoldman]

10. I hate to make excuses for the Democrats but when you start

an impeachment process nothing else gets done. Without a majority it is almost impossible. Consider the fact that congress has accomplished little up to now since the 2006 election.

[yurbud]

18. uh...what else is getting done now? I cut them slack on this initially cuz I figured they were

trying to end the war first.

Now they need to get off their dead asses and either give one or both of Bush and Cheney the boot, or end the war.

Anything else they do is an intentional distraction.

[KittyWampus]

23. This post displays the depth of your ignorance. "what else is getting done now"

someone posted a LONG thread of what Democrats have been doing legislatively the other day.

And then there are the investigations.

The issue isn't the Democrats aren't doing anything.

It's just that you don't KNOW what they're doing and don't care.

You prefer to remain in ignorance and beat your little "impeach" drum.

[yurbud]

27. I know the investigations are going on. substantive legislation is important, but Bush will veto it

[yurbud]

28. the DC people are acting like this is business as usual, which shows an epic disconnect from reality

if the investigations are leading to impeachment, the Democrats need to figure out a way to clue in the public instead of shitting on them.

if the democrats think they can make the damage of the Bush years go away by simply winning congress and the White House, they are making the same mistake they made in the early 90s when they let Papa Bush off the hook for Iran Contra. The result of that "let bygones be bygones" approach was the near successful destruction of our democracy and the deaths of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

But I guess it's more important not to scare away potential corporate donors than to actually represent the people who voted for you.

[Richard Steele]

53. I agree. This is ANYTHING but "business as usual". nm

[yurbud]

59. "Something similar happened with Al Gore. His parking sticker expired and he didn't get a new one

and no one stopped him."

[Bluebear]

42. 'remain in ignorance and beat your little "impeach" drum'

You could have even posted the url to the thread you were referring to. That would have been refreshing.

[Occulus]

48. You know what, though?

Even if all of that is 100% true, the poster you're responding to still knows more about what's going on in Washington than the average Joe on the street because the media either is not covering what the Democrats are doing legislatively, or is barely covering it, on page 4B.

So long as the media continues to refuse to do its job properly, Democrats in Washington can't get their message out effectively. I think perhaps they need to do what Clinton did, and start making a lot more appearances on talkshows and the like.

Maybe they should go directly to the people and tell them what's up in a format corporate media doesn't directly control.

[OzarkDem]

38. That's a myth and GOP talking point

I'm surprised our Dem leaders have bought into the GOP spin.

When the GOP were impeaching Clinton, they were still able to get a great deal accomplished. So can Dems.

Their agenda is very limited right now, circumscribed by what Bush and the GOP in Congress will allow.

Investigations in key Congressional committees won't stop, they can continue during impeachment.

If its extra staffing help they need, take a page from the GOP playbook and use staff from outside "think tanks" to help with the work. Surely all those corporations so loved by the DLC would be willing to cough up some cash to pay for a few staffers, right?

What we have here is a failure of intelligence, imagination and willpower. Our Congressional Dems are lazy and poorly organized. They need to get busy.

[yurbud]

60. why corporate staffers? Get left advocacy groups to do it: CREW, FAIR, Moveon, Ray McGovern....

[Robson]

12. IMPEACH BUSH / CHENEY NOW!!!!!!

Politicians put winning re-election over and above doing what is righteous. Holding Bush - Cheney fully accountable for wiping their feet on the US Constitution is the right thing to do.

So why isn't it being done? The Democratic powers in DC think it would not help get them re-elected and it might hurt them. That's BS. If the immigration amnesty law passes there will be huge support from even Republicans to impeach Bush and others.

I'm tired of seeing members of the "rich and powerful club" get off without even a slap on the wrist when others get sent to prison for years for far less.

IMPEACH BUSH/CHENEY NOW!

[Bluebear]

13. They're "keeping their powder dry".

:eyes:

[Bitwit1234]

16. Impeachment does not always mean removable from office

After a president and in this case vice president is impeached it still does not mean they would be removed from office. That is harder to do.

[Ezlivin]

17. Balls: See, "lack of"

Or perhaps there is a subtle nuance to all of this law breaking that as a mere proletariat I don't comprehend.

Cheney is really missing his waterboard appointment, in my view.

[TahitiNut]

21. Remove his Secret Service protection and VP Residence ... and let nature take its course.

:evilgrin: Just halt ALL taxpayer-funded services and compensation. Now!!

FUCK that autocratic, sociopathic, arrogant sonofabitch! :grr:

[yurbud]

30. you should edit that so it doesn't imply physical harm

I'd hate to see a fellow DUer hanging upside down by his or her short hairs naked at Gitmo.

[Wiley50]

22. Their Corporate Donors wouldbe mad if they did

Cut the fluff!

That's what it boils down to and we all deep down know it too

[Gold Metal Flake]

25. Lets all ask them.

Again and again and again.

[EFerrari]

26. Yes! Let's ask the question.

:)

k&r

[yurbud]

29. I already do. Last week I sent a TO DO list to my congressman, senators, and congressional leaders

TO DO by the end of '07:

1. impeach Bush & Cheney
   
   
2. end the Iraq War

Anything else they do is dereliction of duty.

[Gold Metal Flake]

31. It's not up to them, it's up to us.

[EFerrari]

34. We should pick a day of the week, any damn day,

and go to our local federal buildings with "Impeach Dick Cheney" signs. Don't have to argue or mess with cops, just stand there with our signs. All over the country. See how long they can ignore that.

[yurbud]

39. remember the occupation project? Go to senator & congressman's local office. Ask questions & if

you have time, camp out.

So when you ask about impeachment (or ending the war) if they say, "we're not sure" or "we're working on it but it takes time," say "Okay, I'll wait."

[EFerrari]

41. CP used to do that every week with Nancy's staff. Her offices here

are in the Federal building. I got to see my first Homeland Sekurity truck.

[yurbud]

45. did you see the truck from the inside?

[EFerrari]

49. Not yet!

:)

[yurbud]

46. I think there is something to be said for water torture protest as well as big events

that is, one or a couple of people showing up every day or two instead of a big load of people all at once every few months.

It would have the advantages of being a more constant reminder and would make it look like each cluster or individual thought of showing up independently.

[EFerrari]

50. That's what I'm thinking. You can undercount and report one event.

That happens all the time.

It's harder to ignoring a relay or a continuing protest on the steps of federal buildings. I really want to do this as soon as I catch up on my spinach.

[yurbud]

52. spinach?

[EFerrari]

54. Yep.

[yurbud]

55. I thought that might have been it. I won't ask what's in your pipe

[EFerrari]

56. Whew!

:)

[yurbud]

58. oops, just gave yursef away. DEA will be there shortly

[EFerrari]

62. If they mess with my nap, there will be HELL to pay.

Sorry we didn't meet you when we lived in Sta. Monica, corner of Maple and 16th. :)

[yurbud]

63. how long ago did you live here?

I've probably ridden by your house on my bike.

[EFerrari]

64. I came back north April 30, 2004.

:)

[yurbud]

65. we overlapped by a decade. probably saw you at Trader Joe's or the grocery co-op

do you have any obvious tattoos or piercings?

[EFerrari]

69. LOL! But did you ever go to Jerry's New Year's Eve bash

at that church downtown? Jerry, the huge progressive troublemaker? Doug headlined his shows and I wrote the material.

I miss my friends in Santa Monica but up here, I can take my dog to the beach. :)

[yurbud]

71. I'm always out of town on New Year's. Maybe I'll have to change that.

[EFerrari]

72. It's a great party and a good place to meet progressives. n/t

[spanone]

35. remember....'impeachment is off the table'....Speaker of the House (dem)

[pat_k]

37. Same rationalizations for failing to impeach on torture, abuse of signing. . .

. . .statements, spying, and their constant assertion of Unconstitutional and Un-American fantasy of "unitary authoritarian power."

Bush and Cheney couldn't be more http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/22">willfully and openly blatant.

What do the have to do? Put "terrorist" babies on spikes on the White House lawn?

Even then, the Democratic establishment would probably say "we don't have the votes" to remove. And the Democratic candidates would promise to stop putting babies on spikes in 2009.

These people need HELP. Intervention. More of us need to get in there or the "leadership" will destroy the Party with their weakness. The only REAL fight is the fight to impeach. All else is impotence an sham. Americans know the difference.

[Hubert Flottz]

44. Too Skeerd

Too Busy carting off whatever they can still cart.

[madokie]

47. if the little one starts bombing Iran he'll be using nuclear

and I don't think Russia or China will stay out of it knowing that they themselves are on the radar of the bush* crime family. I just hope we stop these little dick pricks before they destroy the world as we know it for the most part

[Vidar]

57. Complicity & political cowardice.

[yurbud]

67. complicity is the obstacle--too many Dems are corporate owned so even if the leadership

wanted to do the right thing, they are faced with a pro-war, pro-corporate toadying majority.

[Beelzebud]

61. We have to keep that powder dry in case something serious happens.

In other words, the Dems have no excuse but cowardice.

[yurbud]

66. "Bush & Cheney have nuked Iran and eaten babies, but we need to keep our powder dry in case of space

invaders."

[rucky]

68. We're too busy working on legislation for bush to veto. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

70. How About A Specific Charge And Evidence

It's a silly concept...and I know cheney isn't too kean on it. It's called indicting, presenting evidence and convicting. Seems also some here have lost that concept as well.

If Cheney is to be impeached...what are the charges? And how strong are they? Again, CONVICTION matters. Anything less is z waste of time and valuable resources. What would an impeachment that keeps the goon in power prove? He'd still be able to run his shadow government and feel more embolden as he wasn't convicted.

Sadly, there aren't Repugnicans with spines or decency to do what we all know should be done...but if impeachment's the game, then do it right. Come with overwhelming evidence that can't be refuted...then if there are those who still vote to acquit, let them pay the price down the road.

If there's anyone worth impeaching right now, it's Gonzo. He needs to be removed NOW and there is the evidence of his lying to Congress and other violations of Federal Law that can make writing up charges possible now. It'll give you a good idea of where the political tastebuds for impeachment are.

And, again, I'll say I think impeachment is too good for these crooks. It does nothing to address their criminality and lets too many of the real crooks go. Cheney deserves an international tribunal on war crime charges, nothing less!