Do you all consider Hugo Chavez as anti-American?

[Catherine Vincent]

The reason I ask is because of this article I read that says he is:

June 23, 2007, 12:21AM
Giuliani's law firm drops Citgo
Ties to company led by Venezuela's president had raised eyebrows

Rudy Giuliani's law firm no longer represents Citgo Petroleum Corp., the Houston-based oil company controlled by Venezuela's anti-American president Hugo Chavez, a firm spokeswoman said Friday.

Melanie Hillis, a spokeswoman for the Houston-based law firm of Bracewell & Giuliani, said political considerations didn't figure into the decision to sever ties. She called it the "nature of business" and said the decision was mutual.

The disclosure in March that Giuliani's firm represented Citgo brought unwelcome publicity for the former New York City mayor, who is seeking the 2008 Republican presidential nomination. Giuliani led all other Republicans in the latest Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll with 27 percent.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/4913964.html

[yes2truth]

1. I doubt many people HERE do. But most Anericans probably do. EOM

nt

[emilyg]

16. Right on both.

[EFerrari]

2. BushCo is tarring him because they can't control him.

Until they kill him. :(

[ellie]

3. I would say he

is pro Venezuelan. I don't believe that everything must be looked at through a pro-American prism.

[Truth2Tell]

4. He's certainly anti-Bush

I've never seen a quote by him that was "Anti-American", but someone could prove me wrong.

[Catherine Vincent]

7. That's what I figure he was.

He's more anti-Bush than anti-American. Bush Republicans and conservatives think just because someone is anti-Bush, they refer to them as anti-American. They can't stand the fact that people around the world are anti-Bush.

[yurbud]

5. Chavez is anti-Bush and anti-screwing Venezuela

You should post that where republicans can see it though.

[EFerrari]

14. cat_girl is asking an honest question. n/t

[yurbud]

19. that was my honest answer and not meant as an attack on her in any way.

[EFerrari]

30. Sorry, maybe I've had one too many Pan Galatic Gargle Blasters.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

6. What's pro-PRChina is not pro-American that's for sure n/t

[TahitiNut]

8. Is that why he shipped home heating oil to needy Ameerican households?

The working poor could use more "anti-Americanism" like that. I don't see Junior worrying about people freezing. I think he wants workers to sweat ... in shops.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/07/AR2005120702245.html

[silverojo]

9. He's anti-Bush, but he's also a dictator

I don't know if he's anti-American, but I'm not into dictators.

[Truth2Tell]

10. A Dictator

brought to power in a free and fair election by a large majority of the citizens of his grateful nation, among whom he is still overwhelmingly popular.

Weird for a dictator.

[sabbat hunter]

22. he also

currently has wide dicatorial powers to implement policy/laws as he sees fit without parliament approval. additionally he buddies up to people like the president of iraq.
also he refused to renew the license of the one nationwide over the air TV station that opposes him. instead he had the government take the signal over and put on pro chavez propoganda.

yes he is doing some good for the people of venezuela and blasts bush, but those dont automatically make him a good leader.

i would say he is more anti-bush than anti-american.

[Truth2Tell]

29. If the powers are freely given to him by the legislature

then they are not "dictatorial"

And the TV station did not just "oppose him" Their management actively conspired, in advance, with coup plotters intent on violently overthrowing his freely elected government. They then participated in the plot with their broadcasting.

Chavez is subject to substantially more critical coverage from the TV media in Venezuela than Bush is here in the U.S. - on a daily basis. And the TV media in VZ is run by a far more politically diverse set of owners. The notion that Chavez subverts free press in VZ is as absurd as the notion that he is a dictator.

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

34. How do you not realize that this is the MO of every Latin American strong man?

I don't dispute that Chavez has done a lot of good things for the poor in Venezuela, but he is a strong man who isn't good for the long term health of democracy in Venezuela. You don't silence your opponents, even if they participate in a coup against you. You make them wallow in your misery and cover your victories. I am a card carrying member of the ACLU. Free speech is free speech is free speech. I might add the he once participated in a failed coup himself and is not one to talk about coups. He has declared that he wants to be President for another 20 years or so. That wouldn't make him President, it would make him Emperor. The Romans kept the Senate long after Rome ceased to be a Republic. Just because the legislature gives him the power doesn't make it right or democratic.

A strong executive is the curse of the American Constitutional model on Latin America. The history of Latin America is the history of strong executives, otherwise known as dictators either when they have power or after. Just because his supporters in the legislature gave him immense power doesn't mean he should have it. No president, certainly not one in Latin America which has such a history of strong executives effectively being dictators, should have the powers he has. Again, I come back to his desire to be President for at least another 20 years. Part of democracy is political parties. I can't name his political party and neither can virtually any American. Chavez is his political movement and that is the story. I can't name Putin's party either, but at least he is going to give up the title of President and name a successor for fascist Russia. Both Putin and Chavez are fierce critics of Bush, but they don't really believe in democracy and all the values, principles, and institutions which come with it.

And let's be clear, as Keith Olbermann among others proves, the Bush administration has not been able to shut down its biggest critics.

[Gabi Hayes]

37. wise up. do some reading to cure your astounding lack of historical knowledge. one free example:

remember the year 1776?

what do you think about those coup leaders?

now, use your reading skills to peruse something aside from the propaganda you've been obviously let fog your mind

you're buying all the twaddle that I assume you decry in the US corpmedia

remember all they LIES about Obama and the ''madrassa'' he attended? did you believe that, among all the other garbage they've spread about him

stop being so lazy and credulous

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

40. Think of how many people were involved in our revolution that you can remember

Think about how many figures you can remember from the French Revolution. Think of all the things they wrote which anyone with a decent eduction in history has been required to read. Think of how terrified the American revolutionaries were of a strong executive. Think of how terrified Washington was of dying before there was a transfer of power to the next President. Now think of Chavez. Now compare it to Chavez's statement about wanting to be President, capital P, for at least 20 years. Just because he is on the left doesn't make the way he holds power and conducts himself right. If a right-wing politician had the same methods as Chavez we would all call him a dictator. His exchanges with Bush have made for excellent dinner theatre, but neither is one to be a critic.

[Gabi Hayes]

45. again, you don't know what you're talking about

read what really happened regarding Chavez's CONSTITUTIONAL utilization of power, just as our fear of a unitary executive is clearly spelled out in our own constitution

nice try having it both ways

you're one of those clairvoyants who seem to know exactly what he's going to do, based on the BS you've been spoonfed by the very media that gave our own country a REAL dictator, one who stole two elections, as opposed to a man who was elected twice, in perhaps the most closely watched elections in history.

do you think for ONE MOMENT that this junta wouldn't have screamed bloody murder if there was one IOTA of evidenc of election fraud in Venezuela

and you can't even get the basic facts straight. show me where he silenced his opposition. by that I infer you're inaccurately alluding to his letting the LICENSE of RCTV expire, FIVE YEARS after they actively participated in the coup

amazing. keep deluding yourself

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

54. I think you need to think a little bit more about what is going on

"read what really happened regarding Chavez's CONSTITUTIONAL utilization of power, just as our fear of a unitary executive is clearly spelled out in our own constitution"

Of course he got the powers constitutionally, the opposition boycotted the last election. And yes his desire to be President for the foreseeable is dangerous.

Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7115677

"nice try having it both ways" I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

The state took over what I understand to be the last major TV station that is critical of Chavez (I think this is undisputed, what is disputed is whether Chavez should of done it). There are several freedom of the press groups which opposed the closure, as did many human rights groups. These are groups that are critics of all governments everywhere for their records on human rights.

I suggest you read this article from Human Rights Watch, an organization which has been extremely critical of Bush as well: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm

[EFerrari]

56. RCTV was complicit with a CIA coup attempt against Chavez.

So, no, it wasn't the "last major TV station that is critical of Chavez", it was an organ of the elites that are horrified by the democratization of Venezuela.

Their complicity in the CIA interference was caught on tape by two film makers who just happened to be there. Oops!

If Faux News did what RCTV did, their CEO would be in Gitmo. Please.

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

62. If you can show it was the CIA, I can think of a few congressional Democrats who might be interested

with your wisdom. Seriously, I think the Democrats would hold hearings if you could prove that the CIA was involved. In fact, Senator Dodd did ask questions and apparently seems satisfied with the response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt">From Wikipedia:

It is not surprising that U.S. officials knew of the level of unrest that existed in Venezuela, considering the days of massive public protests against Chávez leading up to the events of April 11; however, an investigation conducted by the U.S. Inspector General, at the request of U.S. Senator Christopher Dodd, stated that "U.S. officials acted appropriately and did nothing to encourage an April coup against Venezuela's president".<16><17>

Now, would it surprise me if the CIA was involved? No. But I can't ever remember Dodd talking about it on the campaign trail. And I certainly don't remember congressional hearings this year on CIA involvement. So I don't think it is as clear cut as you make it out to be.

You should read the article by Human Rights Watch: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm

[EFerrari]

63. Go watch the video "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"

You can clearly hear that a CIA copter was waiting to take him away. That isn't my opinion, that was documented.

I have no stake in misrepresenting anything.

[Truth2Tell]

50. Links?

"He has declared that he wants to be President for another 20 years or so..."

New one to me.

And Keith Olberman alone does not prove that we have more press freedom than VZ. We don't.

And I'm also a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

I never said I approve of every way in which Chavez governs, but the demonizing of an elected head of state as a dictator just plays into Chimpie's hands. You're parroting his talking points.

Why not demonize the actual dictators in Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or Pakistan, or any one of the 30+ other countries that receive massive U.S. aid and support?

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

53. NPR:

"Chavez looks set to win in national elections in December, and has said he wants to lead Venezuela until at least 2030. Love him or hate him, this is a man who is more than likely here to stay."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6053134

My understanding of the situation with the TV station is that it was the last major TV station that wasn't pro-Chavez. If you have something that says otherwise, I would be interested to see it, but it still wouldn't change my opinion about closing down the TV station. And I have to laugh at your assertion that Venezuela has more free press than the US. Just read the Washington Post and the New York Times today. They slice and dice the President and Vice-President. Now, I'm not saying that the US media doesn't have its problems, what I am saying is that my understanding of the Venezuela's media is that it is largely controlled by the state which runs blatantly pro-Chavez propaganda.

As for the use of the word dictator, well it is a strong word. However, I think it is apt to say that Bush thinks he is king and Cheney thinks he is dictator. Chavez thinks of himself in much the same light and acts the part. And they all generally conduct themselves in this manner. As for Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan don't get me started. The way the Saudis and Pakistan let the religious police roam free. I had a friend who spent a semester in Egypt. He took a friend to see what a protest was like. The police knew my friend was American so they wouldn't touch him. They were, however, going to beat the living shit out of his Egyptian friend until his friend screamed the name of his father, a high-ranking military general, and they immediately dropped him. These are our good friends the Egyptian government.

What I am saying is that Putin and Chavez have taken many of the same steps in terms of gaining greater power for themselves. However, the left fails to critique Chavez because he is on the left. The left should be saying, no Mr. Bush, we don't agree necessarily with some of his tactics because they are eerily similar to some of your tactics. You say you are troubled, sir, by his disrespect for democracy and democratic institutions. We, too, are troubled sir. However, we are also troubled by your blatant disrespect for democracy and democratic institutions. You talk of free and fair elections, sir, when you yourself have won through voter intimidation and disenfranchisement. So forgive us for thinking that your true motive is the bottom line of oil companies, rather than the best interests of the American or Venezuelan people. For there is one thing that you and Mr. Chavez do not have in common. You have not recognized the plight of the poor in the United States, whereas Mr. Chavez has campaigned on helping the poor in Venezuela.

[sabbat hunter]

42. the reichstag

in germany also gave hitler his power 'freely' and he was freely elected.

now i am in no way shape or form comparing adolph hitler, may he burn in hell forever, to chavez. I am merely pointing out that just because one is freely elected and given dictatorial powers 'freely' does not mean they arent a dictator.

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

57. Exactly, Chavez in no way compares to Hitler, but just because you get power "freely"

doesn't make it a good thing.

[EFerrari]

64. It's especially not a good thing when you stand up to

American / multinational vultures.

:)

[EFerrari]

58. He hasn't been given dictatorial powers. That's just a BushCo

talking point because he's organizing Latin America to the detriment of BushCo Cronies.

[sabbat hunter]

65. he has power to rule by decree

if you rule by decree you are a dictator.

[EFerrari]

66. No, he's been given specific authority to work on a limited task

and that has been done before in Venezuela with no negative consequences.

It always surprises me how willing we are to buy into BushCo bullshit.

[Beelzebud]

44. So it's ok to give Bush dictatorial powers then?

[Vincardog]

60. You might mention that that TV station went on the air with the US BACKED Coup

and broadcast propaganda against him. He also campaigned on the promise to shut them down. That is what he was elected to do.

[sabbat hunter]

67. so free speech

ie broadcasting an opposing view is now wrong?

[EFerrari]

68. Free speech, my bald headed granny.

That station hosted the folks that wanted to oust a duly elected governement.

They LIED to the people and told them Chavez had resigned.

And then, they blacked out the real news.

That's not "free speech". That's treason.

[sabbat hunter]

70. not much worse

than faux news, yet i support their right to be on the air.

with free speech, you have a right to air, or not air what you wish.

[EFerrari]

74. There is no "right" to lie to the public on their own air waves. n/t

[Vincardog]

75. Do they also have the right to lie to the public? What right do they have to

broadcast PROPAGANDA and call it NEWS? NONE.
Why don't I have that right?
Rights belong to people not CORPORATIONS.

[EFerrari]

11. No, he's not a dictator. That's just BushCo propaganda

because they hate him. He stands up to them and they hate that.

[XOKCowboy]

12. BushCo needs America to see him that way...

He's a thorn in the side of OPEC and Bush and his Saudi brothers can't have that. Hence he's painted as "Anti-American".

[sabbat hunter]

71. not a thorn in OPEC at all

Venezuela is PART of OPEC.

he also cozies up to the president of Iran, a maniac in his own right.

[twenty4blackbirds]

13. Venezuela is part of the Americas...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela

:shrug:

I don't feel qualified to elaborate on his psychology and beliefs...I'm pretty sure he's anti-Bush (cf. Chavez's Bush-Satan comparison addressed to the UN last year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Speech_to_the_United_Nations)

[sabbat hunter]

23. *sigh*

come on you know what is meant when the question is asked "is he anti american" that means "is he anti US?"

[twenty4blackbirds]

27. precision in language is such a boon

Venezuela's anti-American president

from OP, and the article I presume. The least I can do is to be precise. I wish I could practice it more often, but my intelligence is lacking.

[MaryBear]

15. The connection between Venezuelan oil and Citgo ended months ago.

This is a non issue.

Of course Chavez is not anti American.

He is anti Bush.

[EFerrari]

17. I've noticed that the anti-Chavez propaganda has stepped up

in the last few weeks. I hope he has good security. :(

[MaryBear]

18. Yes. Note the Subject line wording on this thread.

Not "what is Chavez opinion of America?"

[EFerrari]

51. Yes. We're so flooded with it, it becomes hard to speak outside

of inundation, doesn't it?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

25. MaryBear, you speak such wisdom...

How's the weather down there? :hi:

:hug:

[MaryBear]

41. We all have our wise moments, viva.

Thanks!

The weather is warm in the daytime and cool at night --perfect.

Come on down!

[sabbat hunter]

72. citgo

still owned by Venezuela

Citgo Petroleum Corporation or Citgo, a subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the Venezuelan state-owned petroleum company, is a United States-incorporated firm refiner and marketer of gasoline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citgo

[rucky]

20. the quote says "anti-American president"

and with the right intonation and an extra hyphen, it's an accurate description.

- anti-American-president Rucky

[Vidar]

21. Anti-Bush, anti-capitalist, but not anti=American.

[ShortnFiery]

24. Chavez is Anti-CORPORATE control - especially of Venezuela's resources ...

that makes him an enemy of the ruling political class in the USA who sics their M$M pit bulls on him at every opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in *regulated* capitalism not socialism. However, the attacks by our political class is, at times, a little "over the top." ;)

[Pastiche423]

26. Nope

He's anti-booosh, w/plenty of reason.

[KillCapitalism]

28. He's just anti-Bush, anti-war, and anti-globalist.

Personally, I think if we could get someone like Kucinich elected, Chavez might be open to building rapport with us.

I don't think he'd warm up to Hillary & he'd probably just be lukewarm with Edwards or Obama.

[ConsAreLiars]

31. Anti-imperialist, as we all should be. Bolivarianism is the term that most closely

describes his political outlook. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism for the details.

[Xenotime]

32. Chavez is more american than some people in power.

He has given free oil to people in need. What other big oil can make that claim?

[NI4NI]

33. Has Chavez ever said/done anything bad to America?

I mean to our country and it's people.

BushCo and his oil baron cronies don't count.

[NNN0LHI]

43. He won't kiss our Crackhead In Chiefs ass if that counts

I think doing that can get one disappeared here in the US.

Don

[EFerrari]

69. I would guess, that counts.

lol

[stevedeshazer]

35. Hugo Chavez is pro-Venezuelan n/t

[DFW]

36. Not anti-American, just anti-Bush--like most of the rest of the world

Like most of America--now, anyway (too late, so that's small consolation).

[Gabi Hayes]

38. correct me if I'm wrong, but CPI does NOT include energy or FOOD

prices?

yes?

how convenient

aside from housing/medical what else has a greater effect on the average consumer's pocket book?

[Gabi Hayes]

46. I couldn't edit this post out at the time....should be in another thread. sorry

.

[burrowowl]

39. He wants to give oil to poor Americans

I don't think he is anti-American, he is anti-Bu$hCo and therefore anti-corporatism!

[I Have A Dream]

47. I think that he's anti-Bush rather than anti-American. n/t

[MedleyMisty]

48. I didn't know that the leaders of other countries

had to direct their affairs with the best interests of another country besides their own in mind.

[Gabi Hayes]

49. welcome to DU Wonderland

mindbloggling, isn't it?

[Catherine Vincent]

52. Great!

It looks like most of us realize he's anti-Bush. Being that we all are! :)

[EFerrari]

61. You bet. And anti exploitation.

:thumbsup:

[dkofos]

55. He is not anti-American, just anti bush

Remember his oil for the poor program.
Those poor were in this country.

guiliani has less credibility than bush

[Vincardog]

59. LAST I heard he was the popular ELECTED President of a South AMERICAN country

The fact that he stands up to the Corporate Dicktators is all good in my book.

By the way Anti-Crack-head-FASCIST-Thug is not Anti-American.

[JacquesMolay]

73. George Bush is anti-american, Chavez has pointed that out...

... many times.

[EFerrari]

76. Welcome to DU, Jacques.

:)