How would you draft an immigration bill?

[-..__...]

What prohibitions, provisions, fines/penalties, etc would you include?

A few quick ideas...

No amnesty.

Heavy fines on those who knowingly employ or rent to illegal immigrants.

Enhanced fines/jail sentences for those fraudulently using another SSN or identity; or using fake/forged/counterfeit identification to obtain employment (or any other public or private services).

Deportation, extended waiting period for citizenship (or no citizenship, for those convicted of a felony in this country or are known gang members.

Streamline/expedite the current system for those wishing to enter the country legally or seeking citizenship.

[ddbaj]

1. How about..

We give Latino immigrants and others the same rules white euro immigrants had? I am 100% against illegal immigration, so anyone who shows up at a border crossing, signs the book and passes a health check up can enter the country legally.

No more breaking the law, no more abuses by employers, etc, etc.

It worked before, right? Sound good?

[wildhorses]

3. works for me --

:popcorn:

[democraticinsurgent]

13. You liberal

I'm right there with you. All this angst about our brown brothers and sisters is so ridiculous. All you have to do is look at the once blighted urban neighborhoods that the Mexicans seem to be able to instantly revitalize to know that open immigration is a good thing.

The bill in Congress? What a piece of crap.

[1monster]

24. Hear hear!

[Bridget Burke]

28. That's how my grandparents got in....

They passed the health exam at Ellis Island & were welcomed in. (& things were even less rigorous when some of my earlier ancestors got here.)

But, no, we're told the "new" immigrants are "different." They "won't assimilate."

Ancient nativist/xenophobic BULLSHIT!

[Virginia Dare]

32. I think mine did it the new fashioned way...

they snuck in...:D

[Jim Warren]

38. selective service registration?

males between 18 and 25, that's the law now isn't it?

[fasttense]

2. Puts some teeth into the laws that let illegal employers say

"I didn't know they were illegal immigrants."

Forget doing anything else. You wont need it. Just hold the thieves in charge of corporations accountable.

They can check your bank balance in an instant, they can confirm your credit card in seconds but they can't identify fraudulent SS cards? Yeah, and I own a bridge in New York I'm selling.

[snappyturtle]

7. Absolutely......and secure the borders.

If the first transcontinental railroad was built, largely by hand, in seven years I don't inderstand why we can't build a fence. It helped in San Diego.

[Bobbieo]

19. Who is going to monitor that fence 24/7 and that is what it will take

unless it is electrified and that is scary!!!

[pampango]

20. We don't build a wall for the same reason that Europe doesn't

build a wall along its easter border. It would be a political and financial disaster.

Of course, Europe deals with its poorer neighbors to the east by inviting them to join the EU, not by building a wall to keep Turkey, Rumania, Slovenia, etc. out and away from prosperity of Europe. They seem to believe that peace and prosperity comes from bringing people in not walling them off.

If we built a wall from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, within 2 years DU would be laughing at it and condemning it as a symbol of our arrogance and isolation from the poverty of the Third World.

[treestar]

37. Not to mention the spread of prosperity to the rest of the world

We would probably then have much better relations with Mexico and much better opportunities to go there ourselves. The money Mexicans make here goes back there as it is, with free passage back and forth, that would accentuate.

It's as if these nativists WANT the Mexicans to stay poor, so they can pretend to be some sort of superior nobility, privileged and entitled to the better life because they are "Americans." And their efforts to do so will only result in LESS economic activity in the US.

[snappyturtle]

42. I am not an elitist or a racist....I am an American with the following viewpoint:

I want Mexico to take care of their poor and for the U.S. to take care of its poor. Mexicans can immigrate legally if they desire.

I do not agree that the illegals have an equal right to jobs here offered by American employers than I do. If you are so committed to your views our comprehensive bill should totally revise the laws on the books and make it legal to hire "illegals" but as of now the law is the law is the law.

If this amnesty bill is passed I'll see what you think in fifteen to twenty years.

[pampango]

44. Do you also believe that whites should take care of poor whites;

Blacks of poor Blacks; Asians of poor Asians. Or is it the nation state that is paramount? How about Ugandans taking care of poor Ugandans and Haitians taking care of poor Haitians? Can small poor countries get help from others, while large rich ones cannot or is the rule that countries have to take care of their own poor an inviolable one?

Personally I don't have a problem helping Mexico take care of its poor or Darfur or Gaza. I am not ready for the US to tell the poor of the world to stop bugging us. Solve your own problems. We cannot solve poverty everywhere, but neither should we stop trying to eliminate poverty wherever we can.

[Bridget Burke]

30. Well, "we" had plenty of new immigrants to build the railroad.

Mostly, the Irish worked toward the West.

And Chinese worked East--through the Sierras!

[Donnachaidh]

10. And do a complete check of the employer's records for the last TEN years

Most of them are serial lawbreakers. Go back over their employment records for the last decade, and fine them for EVERY questionable hire they've made. And if it's over a dozen, start adding JAIL time.

[pampango]

45. Freeper (actually lgf) response.

"Build the goddamed fence.
Put sharpshooters on it
arrest all employers that hire illegals
confiscate their businesses and sell them
use that money to pay back the taxpayers that are paying millions in healthcare costs, higher insurance premiums due to uninsured illegals driving drunk and causing wrecks

do it now"

posted by shug 6/26/2007 10:58:44 am PDT

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26014_Railroading_the_Immigration_Bill_in_the_Senate#comments

This freeper is tougher than you. He wants to go straight to arrest and confiscation with no preliminaries of records checks and fines.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. OK. Disagree with just about everything you wrote.

Immediate 'legality' for all persons currently residing in the USA.

Issuance of workers' cards - SS cards to all who wish to labor in the USA.

More border checkpoints on both the Canadian and Mexican borders.

Deportation of all convicted of a felony.

Passage of the Employee Choice Act of 2007 and ready availability of union representatives to get more people into labor unions.

For those wishing to become US citizens, a streamlined method of sponsorship.

Issuance of temporary work permits for seasonal occupations, limited to 3 years.

[MADem]

5. How do people "knowingly" rent to illegals? What will the government do to allow landlords to

verify documents? How much will it cost the taxpayers to set up another layer of government to check on ordinary citizens who want to rent an apartment? Will we start being like Europe, where even hotel guest lists are turned over to "the authorities?"

What documents will ordinary Americans be forced to turn over as well, in order to prevent "illegals" from renting?

You can't discriminate based on, say, appearance or an accent. That's profiling, and it's prejudicial.

And you can't punish a landlord for being fooled by a good forgery.

[-..__...]

14. I don't know what the situation is like where you live...

but... the last 3 times I've moved/rented, I had to provide identification (DL), employment verified and submit to a credit check. No, it's not written in law... just standard operating procedure when dealing with landlords and realty agents. I imagine when applying for any sort of public housing or government assistance (section 8), the verification process is a bit more through.

[MADem]

27. A lot of these folks don't live in those sorts of circumstances

All around this country, there are places that require little more than payment in advance, or first/last and current month's rent. There's also a whole cadre of people who are essentially homeless who will check into a flophouse every so often to have a shower and a snooze indoors.

The guy who used to live across the street from me hired illegals all the time--he was a bastard. Paid them in the dark, but gee, what a sport--he let them sleep in bunkbeds in his basement. Probably charged them rent, too, the shitheel.

Of course, these places aren't in the best neighborhoods, but then again, they don't cater to the wealthy or even the regularly employed.

The people who are living in the shadows aren't gonna qualify for Sec. 8 assistance. They're gonna rent a place that requires first/last/current, they'll pay cash or money order for everything, and in the dead of night, move in five to twenty of their fellow travellers to help with the rent.

[silverojo]

17. Who's discriminating based on appearance or accent?

It's just a matter of being sure that the renters are here legally, that's all. Landlords routinely order credit checks on potential renters--if they can do that, they can check on citizenship status.

And yes, people CAN be punished by being fooled by a good forgery. If you accept a well-made counterfeit $100 bill, and the police find out about it, they take that bill without compensating you. In other words, you're "fined" $100. And if you spend that puppy...you'll wind up in the Graybar Hotel.

[MADem]

31. Landlords who rent fancy--or even pedestrian--apartments do.

But there are places for rent in somewhat blighted neighborhoods where the standards are simply cash in advance.

And just because people CAN be punished for being fooled, doesn't mean that they SHOULD be--with regard to money, the government has taken steps to make counterfeits easier to spot, with watermarking and special threads. There are even machines that can ID a forgery that some businesses use (a tax deductible business expense).

They'll need to provide the same support to landlords, or employers, if they expect people to get at all enthusiastic about following a new law of this nature. I can't see people who are renters liking the idea of giving over way too much info to some clown who might one day use it to swipe one's identity.

[pampango]

22. Repubs use fear of terrorism to push more ID's, more passports,

more documents to prove who you are and what you are doing. DU seems to use fear of immigrants (just the illegal ones, of course) to push for more ID's and other documents to prove who you are and what you are doing here.

When DU and the Repubs agree on something, it can't be far away. Prepare yourselves for coming legislation that you have to carry more documents proving that you are "legal".

[MADem]

35. Well, I don't think all of DU agrees on this. I don't like a lot of government

interference, and I'm not a fan of a national ID card either. I have put up with that "PAPERS!!! Let me see your PAPERS!!!" shit in other countries--I hated it.

That said, we're so unpopular around the world, and we are being such assholes to our friends and neighbors with our insistence upon passports for entry, that they're returning the favor...and requiring that we do the same.

It's unfortunate, how Jorge Bush has managed to make so many people fucking hate us, and how he's ruined this country. Hopefully, we'll be able to reverse the tide, but this is like the red-baiting fifties--it sucks.

[treestar]

36. To do everything!

It's like they want total Soviet style control, for no better reason than to prevent foreigners from coming. As if that wouldn't hurt the economy, too.

It is worth noting that the Soviet Union never had an "illegal alien" problem. Nobody wanted to go there. There's a reason for that.

[Double T]

6. FIRST, FIRST and FIRST.........

The USA needs to secure its own borders; I mean REALLY secure its own borders. THEN, Fine and imprison business owners that hire illegal aliens, Reduce the number of H1B visas, NO AMNESTY, Lower annual immigration quotas, deport all illegal aliens.

[hobbit709]

8. Work out a trade

for every person that wants in, the original country has to take a Republicon in exchange.

[Double T]

11. It would surely STOP immigration to the USA dead in its tracks.

Are YOU trying to spread OUR 'cancer' throughout the world?

[treestar]

34. Dilution of the deadly poison would weaken its effect! nt

[silverojo]

18. Now THERE'S a great idea, LOL!!!!! n/t

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

9. I wouldn't. I'd fund the resources required to enforce what is "the law".

Now, I might bring a separate bill to SEVERELY PUNISH anyone who is gaining profits or political influence by engaging in activities to by-pass 'the law', as it is.

But, that has nothing to do with immigration, now,...does it.

[silverojo]

12. Please run for office -- I'll vote for you!

I think your idea covers all the major problems except one -- citizenship shouldn't be bestowed on infants born to illegals. (When you read up on that topic, citizenship is actually only supposed to be conferred to infants born to an American citizen--but for some reason, judges began ignoring that part of the law.)

If you cleared this up, you wouldn't have to worry about splitting up families, because the entire family could be deported. Children shouldn't have to suffer for the illegal activities of their parents. :(

BTW, I love your Hello Kitty sig...only HK could still be cute, even while holding an assault rifle, LOL!

[TahitiNut]

15. Unless there's both COMPLIANCE and ENFORCEMENT it's a waste of time and effort.

The most obscenely ridiculous part of this entire charade is the HYPOCRISY. Not only have we shown almost total disdain for what semblance of the "democratic process" of lawmaking remains, we continue to pretend that this is just another NAIL to beat upon with the HAMMER of legislation. The kabuki is infuriating!

Let's also be clear: the legislation being promulgated is AMNESTY ... it's the worst kind of AMNESTY in that it is complete and without any kind of waiting time or penalities FOR EMPLOYERS of illegal aliens! Any purported alteration in the law itself other than the embolus of disenfranchised labor - trafficking in human labor - is sheer facade. The focus on illegal aliens as other than those who're complicit in their own exploitation is mostly obfuscation and distraction. The same corporatist exploiters who're preying on a politically and economically disenfranchised workforce are the forces who've created and maintained the very conditions in Latin America that oppress vast numbers of people.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/388

[dmallind]

16. How about a middle way?

1. Determine what immigration is necessary or beneficial, both in quantity and quality, to sustain economic growth and long term standard of living in the US. While not privy to every datum on the issue, my gut feel is we probably need low skill low wage workers (so we can compete with low skill low wage countries in labor-intensive industries without losing ALL the jobs in that industry, not just the lower wage ones. After all the alternative is not low wage textile workers vs. high wage textile workers, but instead it's low wage textile workers vs. NO textile workers, inspectors, manufacturing engineers, accountants, IT folks etc etc in the US textile industry) and top scientists/technicians, and not much else.

2. Pull from the pool of interested legal immigrants those whose skills and backgrounds best meet these requirements. Screen for health and serious criminal background. Allow in immediate families too (exactly how much of a productive citizen are we likely to get if we only allow in the mother but not the kids etc?)

3. Start addressing the demand for illegals after we have done a couple of cycles of the above. It should go down. If it doesn't, that tells me that something more nefarious than a genuine need for low wage low skill workers is the problem. NO program dealing only with supply has succeeede, Not progibition not drugs. In this case we are dealing with "contraband" that is intelligent enough to smuggle itself in. The focus must be 90% on the demand side. How? Institute a real worker ID system with a hard-to-forge format and instant, accurate centralized verification (works for drivers). If ID # 17566842 doesn't belong to John Doe, or the guy standing in front of you is 6" taller than John Doe is supposed to be with brown eyes instead of blue - then if you hire him it's his entire income for the entire length of his service with you when caught as a fine, payable by the company. A $1000 fine first offense payable by the hiring manager who approved the hire, and goes up from there to include stiff fines for 2nd and imprisonment for 3rd or greater offense. Also speedily deport the fake John Doe. We cannot be TOO soft on the supply side. Again, unlike booze or drugs, they chose to be smuggled in.

4. Walls etc are bullshit pure and simple. We have tens of thousands of miles of coasts, the vast majority unguarded. 50% or so of illegal immigrants even now simply outstay legal visas even now. Let's not repeat the folly of the Maginot line on a grander stupider scale.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Complete amnesty for those already here.

But, I like this idea too.

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[RB TexLa]

23. Recommending your reply

:toast:

I love how I'm now expected to proverbially stand at the border with a shotgun to keep people out when all of my people didn't enter legally. I feel like the Anglos are saying "Hey we eventually let you have your own parade, we even allow you to play golf with us, now you get in line and help us keep these people out of here!"

[KharmaTrain]

25. Make It Reflect A True Open Market

Strip out the racism and the racists. Let's call this what it is...it's not a problem with illegal immigrants, it's a problem with illegal MEXICAN immigrants. Now that that's been narrowed down, let's look at why they come here. It surely isn't for the food or the weather. A true REFORM plan would look at the social and economic cauess and effects on both sides of the border and address these points that would result in a far more equitable and lasting solution.

What brings a person from a village or town their family has lived in for centuries...leave all they have...face the dangers of coyotes and the Sonoran Desert to pick grapes or flip burgers for $6.00 an hour? There must be something really bad going on in Mexico that one would take all these risks to take "jobs Americans don't want" and to face discrimination and hatred from the "gringos".

Next, what makes it so attractive for employers...and this just isn't the seasonal farms, but companies in all sectors of the economy...to look the other way...or in some cases encourage the hiring of undocumented workers. Why aren't are the existing laws ignored or so few of those who hire these people prosecuted? Also, there are the employers across the border...many of the same on this side...who play both ends in getting both the cheap labor and ability to flaunt or avoid laws cause of their political connections.

From the many Mexicans and other Hispanic immigrants I've met over 30 plus years, many, if not most, would love to return to a Mexico or Honduras or Peru that had similar opportunities for feeding a family as they do risking all to come here. It speaks volumes of the level of poverty and economic injustice in those countries that are at the core of this "invasion".

Personally, I'd love to see all Mexicans go on strike for a week...stop cutting lawns, stop building McMansions, stop cleaning latrines...and then lets see how "bad" this "invasion" is.

[VP505]

26. What you've outlined

is basically all that needs to be done for the short term, say for about two years than another look at the guest worker program to see what if anything needs to be done there. We absolutely don't need to be harassing anyone other than hard core criminals with round ups and deportation.

[treestar]

29. Give anyone wanting entry a visitor's visa

Give anyone with a job offer a working visa.

Grant citizenship to anyone who stays 15 years and shows intent to permanent live in the U.S.

Simplified, and lets the market take care of all issues. The only exceptions being criminals, terrorists, etc., those who are inadmissible under the existing categories.

It helps the economy by helping it grow and not allowing aliens to undercut Americans on wage and price and working conditions, since the aliens would be "legal" and would have the same rights to the same working conditions.

It lets them pay their taxes if they are working here. It lets them go back and forth from home for medical treatment, thus obliterating our self induced victimhood in the false claim that they cost us in medical treatment (they don't, the poor don't get good medical treatment here if they are citizens, let alone illegal aliens) and the self induced victimhood that they work here at low paying jobs but don't pay taxes.

It also prevents the government from separating families.

Leave enforcement to the federal government alone - it is getting too complicated to have all these levels and indirect types of enforcement. Give the government less to enforce, so that the aliens respect the laws as likely to be enforced. (the average alien today KNOWS the government can't enforce the laws we have).

[Lone_Star_Dem]

40. This works for me

Having the employer listed would create a verifiable trail of wage scale and should be the end of the predatory employers that now exploit illegal immigrants. Which is my number one complaint.

[LWolf]

33. To address immigration, I'd do the following:

I'd make it legal for anyone to be here that wanted to be. Then I'd mandate a living wage. To make sure it was a living wage, I'd have to have some sort of guaranteed affordable housing, invest in transportation, etc..

Once a living wage is established, I'd write a law which would disband any employer not paying a living wage. Not a takeover, but disband it. Sell all equipment at auction, and prohibit the employers from holding another business license.

Exceptions? Part time work for full-time students could be paid at reduced wages.

Automatic citizenship to all, male and female, that voluntarily undergo sterilization. Guaranteed citizenship to all, male and female that agree to sterilize after the live birth of the 2nd child.

As a matter of fact, I might just make that a condition of citizenship for anyone born within the borders.

That's the trade-off. If I'm going to open the borders and accept anybody, the over population issue has to be decisively addressed. It would be nice if all individuals would, out of a sense of planetary responsibility, choose to work for zero population growth. Since I don't see that happening, there has to be something in place to ensure that the U.S. is not further degraded by expanding populations and reduction of open space, wilderness, farmland, water, fresh food, etc..

Lastly, I would not trade or partner with any nation that did not provide the same living wage and reproductive requirements. I might add some working condition and environmental requirements to that list.

You can see why I'd never make a legislator, lol.

[BuyingThyme]

39. Why the hell would somebody draft a fucking immigration bill?

That's not the way law works. You don't throw all that crap into one vote. You write laws one at a time.

The only reason we're looking at this "comprehensive" bill is because the Pukes (and some Dems) want to lock up slave labor for many years to come. That's what "comprehensive" really means. It's long-term social policy for corporations.

[Jed Dilligan]

41. None of the above

Just set a national standard for occupancy rates per square footage in rental units, and create a bureaucracy that can actually enforce it. The economic advantage enjoyed by immigrants in general (not just "illegals") over native-born workers would disappear.

[Bridget Burke]

47. So--you don't like any immigrants, at all.

And you want to create a pretty powerful bureaucracy.

[Jed Dilligan]

48. No

I just don't like slumlords.

[RB TexLa]

49. The economic advantage of more than two or three people in an apartment

now that shit is funny! :spray:

:rofl:

[Jed Dilligan]

50. What's funny about it?

It's just true. If you're willing to live six people to a bedroom you can work minimum wage in a big city and not be homeless.

You don't see that as an economic advantage?

[RB TexLa]

51. And I guess Jews are just so sneaky with money, and those blacks can sure run fast

I can't remember all the rest of the racial stereotypes, I'm sure there are sites.

Or the words of Reggie White.

Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure.

When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch.

http://my.execpc.com/~dross/aw/regwhite.html

:puke:

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Whatever

If you don't want to believe overcrowded housing is a real urban problem, I don't care if you call me a racist.

[Jim Warren]

54. Horseshit

[CanonRay]

43. Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree. Add seal the border at the top of the list.

[cherokeeprogressive]

46. Adopt Mexico's Immigration Policy, Lock, Stock, and Barrel n/t

[Selatius]

53. The Border Enforcement Act is what I'd call it.

Basically, enforce the borders.

Crack down on employers. Start a massive dragnet program with ICE and FBI spearheading stings against employers across the country. Crack down on document fraud and specifically social security fraud. Heavy fines for all who are proven guilty and prison terms for the most egregious violators. Start a massive training/hiring program to increase the number of border patrol agents to levels adequate to address the situation.

Let people who wish to cross the border out of the country go without question. There will be a lot of those people doing that when employers are too afraid to hire undocumented workers with forged documents.

For everybody else who can't get out for various reasons, give them amnesty at a later prescribed date. Otherwise, we'll face an internally displaced refugee population numbering in the millions, a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen.

[piedmont]

55. Mandate and FUND enforcement of any existing or new laws.