Amtrak passenger booted off train found alive..

[Ghost in the Machine]

A St. Louis man who was booted off a train in Arizona on Sunday has been found, a Phoenix television station says.

KPNX-TV reported late Thursday that a sheriff's deputy had found Roosevelt Sims, 65. He was taken to a hospital in Flagstaff, the station said.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/FBC134C512EC83DE862573090014A699?OpenDocument

[malaise]

1. I hope he sues Amtrak

He could have died.

[kikiek]

13. Reading the article the train waited for police to arrive. They were there already, but he bolted

from the police. It also said the family says he could have been drinking so it sounds like a few details are not too clear yet. Maybe the MD should have spent more time with him discussing his disease and the dangers of low blood sugar, drinking with diabetes, and symptoms of low and high blood sugar, what a healthy diet is. Telling him to eat healthy and I'll talk to ya later sounds like more negligent to me than what the train conductor did. Of course the MD may have given him more info than we are hearing. All in all there are always two sides to every story.

[Pooka Fey]

20. There are no "two sides" to dumping a vulnerable human being in the forest PERIOD

Definition of a "vulnerable human being" is someone obviously physically and/or mentally impaired. This kind of callous "he got what he had coming to him" attitude reflected in your post shows the lack of humanity and empathy which has poisoned our culture - (thanks right wing radio hatemongers). Ick.

And the excuse that they called the police doesn't stand up. There is an established pattern of Black Americans in isolated places being beaten to bloody pulp, tasered half to death, or shot by the police. He did the right thing by bolting when he saw the cops as far as I see it.

[kikiek]

21. Reading your response I can see why you think running from the cops was the right thing to do.

Overeaction appears to be consistent. At no point did I say he had anything coming to him. You sure don't know me or anything about my humanity and empathy. I can say I don't jump to conclusions about people and their motives nearly as fast as you. Sometimes there just isn't the dark evil side to a story.

[Pooka Fey]

28. Right, you said there was another side to the story - therefore he MIGHT have had it coming to him

I don't know you, but I know America in 2007.

If you can explain how dumping an obviously impaired 65 year old man for seeming to be drunk in the Williams AZ forest is not dark and evil, I'm all ears. Oh that's right, they called the cops. I'm from Los Angeles. When a black man is all alone in the middle of nowhere, with no one around to hear him screaming, and the only thing around for 5 miles is a cop car, you better believe the right choice is to run. Oh but according to Whitey, a good law abiding respectful black man will stick around and get shot for being sick and delirious and unable to follow all commands instantaneously while a scared cop screams at him and holds a gun to his head.

[Sequoia]

45. You're dead on about the Los Angeles bit.

Cops are NOT very friendly for the most part.

[YOY]

34. actually he was threatening other passengers and employees

So either he starts a fight and hurts someone or he gets dropped off and the police pick him up (which he was informed of.)

Don't play the race card. Amtrak is not a racist organization.

[Pooka Fey]

37. Link please? Where in the original article does it state he was threatening other passengers?

The article says that the train conductor believed him to be drunk. His family says he a shy person and would never harass, let alone speak to another passenger - unless he was suffering from a diabetic episode. The article continues to describe symptoms of a diabetic reaction, which includes disorientation and a fright response. I'm stunned that people are posting in support of Amtrak here.

snip
Williams police Lt. Mike Graham told the CBS affiliate in Phoenix that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing as a drop-off site in the past. Critical of Amtrak's action, he said, "You don't put anyone off in an area like that."
snip

A spokesman for the Williams police knows it was wrong, and yet there are DU'ers justifying it. This is Bizarro world.

I said nothing even remotely to the effect that Amtrak was racist. I said, I UNDERSTAND WHY a black man who was experiencing a severe debilitating crises which impaired his ability to think and function would run when he sees that he is being dumped in a remote forested area and there is nobody within 5 miles of him except for the police who are coming to get him for being "drunk". This is not "playing the race card", this is America in the 21st century.

[YOY]

38. Amtrak internal buzz around the office in DC (HQ)

Can't share. Sorry and remember that the 'employee' who did this was (as all employees who work on the train or in the trainyards are) a member of the rail union. If we get sued expect the Rail Worker's Union to put up their lawyer in conjunction

The RWU are not to be trifled with. I am not a member (few of us on operation are...despite the fact that I have spent time in the yards doing work on projects...) but they (for the most part) control us not the other way around.

Amtrak is an incredibly diverse place (and mostly Democrat I may add!) and compared to many offices in DC we are not useless and/or redundant (of course we are psuedogovernmental and not governmental...) This place is good to us and we are to it...tough to find in today's job market.

[Pooka Fey]

39. This is such an indictment of America.

I'm weeping. :cry: Doesn't anyone "get it" ? Williams city was one stop away if they wanted him off. Why aren't Amtrak conductors trained to recognize diabetic shock? Why did the dining car run out of food so that a diabetic can't eat anything except a bag of potato chips during a long train ride? Why would Amtrak continue to sell liquor to someone who appears to be intoxicated - (bars can't do this, but Amtrak can???), and then boot him off the train for being drunk, if Amtrak is going to run with their story that this guy was drunk and disorderly?

[YOY]

40. You buy the liquor and take it back to your seat. You don't drink it in the dining car usually

People often (especially on Fridays) get nice and liquored up on the train. Many bring their own alchohol. It's actually a party train along the North-Eastern corridor at times if you can believe it. You can't control what food or drink folks bring with them.

Curious about the dining car. I am unsure that they were out of things. I handle the North East Corridor (Empire Builder) and have NOTHING to do with the Western Routes nor the commisaries in general. Usually they are very well stocked with a mediocre selection of items. I know we are changing some of the ways you can pay so that things are more secure (no mishaps...we just don't want one.) Also the commissary/dining cars are Union as well. They run it. It is not contracted out. They tried that and the Union greeted the folks they brought in with baseball bats...

Could it also possibly be that the guy really was drunk and was threatening other passengers as well as the staff and is now looking to sue?

[Pooka Fey]

46. Yeah, you're right. He might have been drunk, so fuck the prick. Dump his ass wherever.

:sarcasm:

[YOY]

62. Yeah you're right he might not have hurt another passenger and they would never sue us

:sarcasm:

[Richard Steele]

2. Thanks for that good news- I really feared he wouldn't be! nm

[youngdem]

3. Cool....He's gonna own a train

Fucking assholes at Amtrak...It would have been negligence to free even a drunk in the middle of nowhere in the woods.

Perhaps they should have a better procedure in place.

What a negligent act. So glad he isn't dead.

[ellacott]

4. So true n/t

[YOY]

35. The police were there

he ran from the cops. He was threatening emplees and passengers. He was drunk and diabetic not in insulin shock.

We are NOT assholes at Amtrak...actually we're 80% democrat.

Thanks for talking about s*** you aren't sure of.

[youngdem]

53. Sounds like YOU don't know what you are talking about

The family has come forward. He was in insulin shock.

Defending Amtrak?

That must be a lonely endeavor. What, did you give up on IRS p.r.?

[YOY]

63. Why attack Amtrak?

I had no idea we're some republican bastion but hey, whatever floats your boat. Keep up the attack. and never drop the idea that we're just like Limbaugh...but with TRAINS!

:sarcasm:

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK did Amtrak ever do to you? "Fucking Assholes at Amtrak"? Seriously! What the hell? Did a conductor molest you as a child or something? Maybe a redcap took your wallet?

Anyhow, if Amtrak is truly in the wrong here you're going to have to blame the Rail Worker Union employee. They control Amtrak and not us.

[tkmorris]

58. It doesn't matter

You don't dump a passenger off in the middle of nowhere, even if you DO call the police to pick him up. Sorry that it's your sacred cow on the sacrificial altar this time but try to be objective.

[Vinca]

5. Finally . . . some good news. Wonder if he'll change the name

from Amtrak to Roosevelt after he owns it?

[Atman]

6. One of the very strange things about this...(pic of Williams AZ)

Why would they do this the guy in Williams Junction? It's apparently one stop (a close one, too) to Williams, which is a bustling little tourist stop along Rt. 66. They couldn't keep the guy calm until the train reached town? Or, if they were heading the other way, why couldn't they have just had someone drive him back to Williams or something? How much worse could he have gotten in the distance of that one whistle stop? This just seems like very stupid decision making all the way around.

Here's a pic of Williams (taken from our hotel window...yes, that's a hooker in lingerie dangling from the ledge, but there's a perfectly good explanation). You can see the train station...a very nice one...in the background. Why would they leave him in the woods when this was one stop away???



.

[frogcycle]

11. they called police and waited til they arrived

presumably they meant to do exactly as you suggest - have him driven somewhere

I agree it is unfortunate it played out as it did; I have been on too many trains and planes and at ball games and such that were infested with obnoxious drunks to get too uptight about Amtrak's policy, and it sounds like they at least tried to implement it properly.

Mistreatment of people in diabetic shock is a not-infrequent horror story. Misunderstanding of that phenomenon is the root cause of this screwup, and that is what should be addressed.

It is unfortunate the guy had only just been diagnosed, so no doubt did not have an id bracelet saying "i am a diabetic - if i appear drunk don't believe it" or whatever they say. If he was, in fact, drinking, then that would make the assumption he had overindulged pretty understandable.

Sounds like a very unfortunate combination of circumstances, but I don't think assuming Amtrak is a bunch of fascists is in order.

[Ladyhawk]

23. I recently went through two weeks of hell because of my diabetes.

And I can't find my medical ID dog tags. Crap. Time to order some more I guess.

When you get hypoglycemic, it's like trying to think through a thick cloud. The weird thing is, hyperglycemia and hypoglycemia feel almost the same to me. It's hard for me to differentiate between the two. I don't know if I've ever been as badly affected as the poor fellow in this story. Maybe. But if so, I was surrounded by friends because I didn't end up dumped in some forest. Sometimes I'm able to articulate: "My blood sugar is so low I can't think." After a certain point, though, all bets are off. :shrug:

I read about this guy last night and I'm very, very happy he was found alive. Welcome to DiabetesLand, bro. Make the best of your stay.

[frogcycle]

27. thanks for your comments

I wish all the people in this thread jumping all over Amtrak and claiming racial prejudice, etc. would instead focus on the issue. You explain it well. your comment about not knowing where your id tags are is is telling. We need education of the general public and reminders to diabetes patients. Maybe you could put together a discussion for a base thread. Kind of like a "don't forget to buckle up" message.

Shouldn't diabetes awareness have the same level of attention as the Heimlich maneuver and CPR?

[Totally Committed]

7. Thank goodness. I really feared the worst.

I hope his family sues the ever-loving bejeezus out of Amtrak for this.

TC

[symbolman]

8. When I was a kid and some one was having a fit

or was diabetic, some adult would know what to do. Give them a candy bar, or put a belt in their mouth and stand back.. NO ONE would have thrown even a DRUNK OFF a Train in the middle of nowhere.

It seems that we are losing our Humanity, because I REMEMBER that we had it once.

or is it that No one KNOWS WHAT TO DO? No Patience, not a thought for his safety, no EMPATHY.

When we stop giving a shit, we're all DOOMED.

[Decruiter]

15. You just said it all and more. What happened and just when did it

happen? I feel like I'm living in a twilight zone! This is not the America I grew up in at all.

I'd just love to know more about those who stopped the train and made this disturbed man get off, and thank all the angels above for taking care of him.

It is a good day starting early in the Central Time Zone if the Disturbed US of A. Good people still come out okay every once in a while.

[Pooka Fey]

17. Yes, there is a shocking lack of empathy in today's culture. n/t

[soothsayer]

9. On the train to Florida the big mean Amtrak lady threatened to throw these

nice old Jewish couple off the train in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere because they were playing cards and gambling with PENNIES to pass the time. Apparently Amtrak has a zero tolerance policy for....well, everything!

[Lerkfish]

10. hmmm... a black man and a jewish couple......

I"m just sayin.

:shrug:

[soothsayer]

16. And the Amtrak lady was a big strapping blonde brunhilde type...!

[ellie]

12. Thank God

If someone did that to my father, I would be in jail for manslaughter.

[NaturalHigh]

14. Thank you for the good news.

I've been pretty frazzled ever since reading about this. Even if the guy was drunk, why would they throw him off in the middle of nowhere?

[YOY]

31. They called the cops and told him that they would pick him up

He ran from the cops.

[LostinVA]

18. Thank the gods -- Amtrak is very lucky the man isn't dead or in a coma

[tblue37]

19. Oh, thank goodness!

I have been fretting about this since I heard. My mom was diabetic, and it just hit too close to home. That poor man!

[Catherine Vincent]

22. So glad the man was found alive.

Amtrak should still pay damages of some sort.

[myrna minx]

24. Oh, thank goodness.

I just can't believe that happened in the first place.

[GardeningGal]

25. What concerns me

is that the article did not state his condition, only that he was taken to a hospital. I hope he comes out of this with all his mental and physical capacity that he had before.

[blondeatlast]

26. Thank goodness--and thank goodness he went to the Flag hospital, not Kingman. nt

[ginnyinWI]

29. I have personal experience with the Amtrak staff

We took a cross country Amtrak trip in 1988. The conductors had all the power--and it went to their heads. They were like the Gestapo! They threatened to put people off the train if anyone was caught breaking rules, especially if the toilets were found to be clogged. What a nightmare--it was like being in a prison for three days and two nights!

[YOY]

30. As a contractor for Amtrak I will say two things. Many of you have misconceptions galore

One, this is hardly the 'gestapo'. I work for some very nice tolerant people. THere are two parts of Amtrak: thus business side and the union side. Amtrak's business side can't force the union to do much of anything. They make and enforce their own rules. The guy who did the throwing off was probably train worker's union first and Amtrak second.

Two, don't mess with the Rail Worker's Union. They tell us what to do not the other way around. They don't play games.

BTW, 80% of Amtrak employees are hardcore liberals. Just FYI.

Also did any of you read the story??? The police were called to pick him up & he was told this, but he ran from the cops. He was drunk and unruly and disturbing other passengers! The buzz was that he was threatening the employees and passengers!

[IDemo]

50. It's apparent you did not read the story

Train officials escorted him off the Amtrak about 10 p.m. Sunday because they thought he was drunk.

Sorry, with no breath test for alcohol, this does not count as a diagnosis, especially coming from non medically trained Amtrak employees.

Roosevelt Sims told her he had eaten only a bag of potato chips since he left St. Louis. He said the train's dining car ran out of food.

It's very likely he was unable to adjust his insulin dosage to compensate for the lack of carbohydrates, particularly if he was newly diagnosed.

Yes, I'm speaking as an expert here, with 45 years of first hand experience.

[YOY]

60. It's apparent that you think we haven't been talking about it

n/t

[blondeatlast]

54. He wasn't drunk. May you never be cursed with taking insulin to survive. Geez. nt

[YOY]

61. So you were there?

n/t

[kikiek]

57. Kinda surreal...happening a lot lately. No discussion and certainly no room for

opposing opinions. Ferocious attacks are becoming the norm. I guess waiting for the facts to come out before drawing a conclusion is too much to ask.

[1monster]

32. I don't recall ever hearing about people in dabetic shock being confused

as drunks in the past.

But the last few years, it seems to be very common. And they are very harshly treated.

Why?

Did drunks get that kind harsh treatment in the past? What did they do to diabetics in the past?

[uppityperson]

41. They have, I ran into this 40 yrs ago, diabetic in the store

I was a teen, store people thought he was drunk, my mom figured out the problem and managed to manage the manager into getting him help.

[Kingshakabobo]

44. TASER is the first thing that comes to mind.

The cops LOVE using it as a "come along" tool. I keep reading stories about diabetics being tasered. In the old days, if the cops thought they were dealing with a drunk the worst thing that would happen is two of them would put cuffs on till they figured it out. Now they practice "push button diplomacy" and taser the shit out of people for compliance.

[bleedingheart]

47. ever see Steel Magnolias?

old movie but in it...the bride to be...Julia Roberts has a diabetic episode...she is confused and combative...

probably the first time I ever saw it depicted...and that is how it happens....for some folks...for others it can be far worse...

[dogday]

55. My Mom was a diabetic, when she would go into

shock, she would become very confused and I can see where those who don't know what to look for would confuse it with being drunk....

[BlooInBloo]

33. thank goodness.

[Solly Mack]

36. Good!

[uppityperson]

42. another bit from another article, link here...Conductor waited with him

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/KTVKLNews20070629_amtrak-passenger.270c94f3.html
According to Amtrak, personnel aboard the train were following company policy when they escorted Sims off the train during a scheduled stop in Williams Junction.

The police were contacted and a conductor reportedly waited with Sims for them to arrive. When officers did get there, Sims reportedly ran off into the woods.

[Kingshakabobo]

49. Well, it appears the "left him alone in the woods" story didn't actually happen.

This story is all about identifying the symptoms associated with diabetes. Amtrak needs to educate their employees. Maybe diabetes should be the default assumption......though that may be a tough one if the person is taking advantage of the drink car when the attack comes.

I grew up with a diabetic parent. My mom would become a babbling mess when she was hypoglycemic. Not knowing the damage she was doing to her body, we kids thought it was kinda funny. Usually a little orange juice would fix the problem.

[Rosemary2205]

43. HALLELUIA!!

[RamboLiberal]

48. Thank you - I was hoping this story would have a good ending

eom

[IDemo]

51. The ignorance about diabetic insulin shock is pathetic

There are two major issues with the lack of understanding about severe hypoglycemia: 1) confusing it with drunkenness, sometimes resulting in handcuffing and jailing (and sometimes accompanied by a peremptory tasering), and 2) not knowing how to treat someone even when it is known to be hypoglycemia, not alcohol, causing the problem. I have actually spoken with an in-home nurse who gave a patient of hers an insulin injection without testing his blood glucose first, worsening the problem. Many people I have spoken with, neighbors and co-workers alike, have voiced "so we need to get some insulin in you if you start drifting off". WRONG!

[blondeatlast]

52. A very wise nurse told my family once, regardless of my symptoms,

assume it's hypoglycemia, THEN test the glucose (my lows and highs can be awfully similar). Even if my bG is high, it's easier to bring down a high bG than it is to resuscitate a dead me!

At least the high bG isn't fatal within a few minutes as a very low bG can be.

I'm on an insulin pump and I was once in the hospital when a nurse tried to give me an injection. My orders were very specific that I was to self-manage my diabetes.

I had to physically hold her back and my roommate's husband even came over to stop her. Unbelievable.

[Zookeeper]

56. You are so right!

My daughter has Type 1 and I'm shocked the number of *nurses* I've met who think she can't have sugar. This may be due to Type 2 being more common, but it's frightening, especially because the ones who don't "get it" are absolutely certain that they are right, even when my daughter or I tell them otherwise.

And most people I meet wouldn't have a clue of what to do for a diabetic having insulin shock, much less recognize it with out a medical alert tag.

Probably all parents of a child with Type 1 share the fear of having our children treated like they are drunk or high when they are hypoglycemic, since, untreated, it can result in coma and death.

[kikiek]

59. I was a police dispatcher at one time and never aired poss drunk driver reports

as drunk drivers because many were diabetics in a reaction. Hindsight being 20/20 I think the family needed more teaching from the healthcare provider about diabetes. Also a bracelet because it is mistaken for drunken behavior. One of my coworkers was diabetic. He would become beligerent and outright nasty and inappropriate when his blood sugar was low. We had to have a paramedic come one time to give him an IV to correct it. At any rate I think he would have bolted even if they had called paramedics. They would have sent a squad no matter what because of his behavior even if it had been properly identified. At least where I worked EMS would have requested it.