Police in Plantation, Florida, say ex-Marine within his rights to shoot armed robbers in Subway

[Ian David]

Police in Plantation, Florida, say ex-Marine within his rights to shoot armed robbers in Subway

By Akilah Johnson, Andrew Tran and Juan C. Ortega
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted June 29 2007

Some are calling a former U.S. Marine a hero for shooting two men — killing one — during the botched robbery of a sandwich shop in Plantation. But the men's friends and family want to know how he could gun them down and not be charged.

John Lovell had just finished dinner at about 11:15 p.m. Wednesday when, Plantation police say, two men armed with guns rushed inside a Subway shop and demanded cash. After robbing the store, the men turned to Lovell. They wanted his money, police said.

But like his attackers, Lovell was armed.

The retired military man opened fire, shooting dead Donicio Arrindell, 22, of North Lauderdale, and critically injuring Fredrick Gadson, 21, of Fort Lauderdale.

Lovell, 71, of Plantation, has a valid concealed weapons permit and is not expected to be charged in the shooting, said police spokesman Detective Robert Rettig. Gadson, however, faces multiple felony charges that could include murder, he said. Under Florida law, anyone who commits a felony such as armed robbery resulting in a death can be held accountable for the capital offense.

<snip>

Florida law gives people the right of "self-defense without the duty to retreat." That means individuals can use deadly force virtually anywhere to prevent death or serious injury.

More:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbsubway0629sbjun29,0,4065858.story?coll=sfla-news-broward

[LisaL]

1. How he can gun them down and not be charged-simple.

Self-defense.
Even if they weren't armed with guns, I think he would be in his rights to shoot them and not be charged. But especially considering they were armed, this appears to be pretty clear case of self defense.

[William769]

2. I don't think it could be any clearer.

[zanne]

5. I'm not saying this is the case here, but...

What if the person who defending himself or (somebody else) is drunk? Does the law state that the person shooting in self-defense or for the defense of others have to be sober?

[LisaL]

9. No, the law doesn't state that you have to be sober to act in self-defense.

[William769]

11. Here we go with the what ifs

You don't take something that does not belong to you. Period!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

97. Like a life? n/t

[William769]

101. So your saying it's ok to rob and steal from people?

[MADem]

158. Well, you're using an expression as though Mr. Lovell could derive some sort of advantage

from "taking" a life, as though that is the same as "taking" someone's wallet. If anything, the incident would weigh the fellow down--he didn't perpetuate it, he simply responded to a set of circumstances that befell him.

The old man, unlike the two thieves, didn't go out with the intention to take anything. He ordered a sandwich and sat his ass down to eat it. Two assclowns came in and tried to TAKE his wallet. What they ended up doing was surrendering one, possibly two lives because their act of violence was met with an appropriate and equal response.

Had they not gone out with armed robbery as their goal, they wouldn't have found themselves on the receiving end of a bullet. They perpetuated the incident with their violent acts.

I dunno, I have to say they were pretty damned stupid. Pulling that shit in a state with those kinds of laws is a risky endeavor.

[William769]

100. posted wrong place.

[ChazII]

218. They should have read

Everything I Know I Learned in Kindergarten (or something like that). Thanks for your common sense.

[Mike Daniels]

23. Even if the guy was drunk out of his mind

He was being robbed at gunpoint. I'd say he has every damn right to pull out his gun and blow the thieving scum away.

[LisaL]

27. He was eating in a Subway. I say odds are pretty good

he wasn't drunk.

[JVS]

255. at 11:15 PM, I could see it being a place to get a bite to eat on the way home from the bar

I never heard of subways being open so late, but maybe in some places they are

[Ganja Ninja]

7. Exactly! He was well within his rights.

They tried to rob him at gun point. For all he knows they could shoot him after he hands over his wallet. They got what they deserved.

[LisaL]

12. And since they were armed, he really can't just point the gun

at them in hope they would run off. He had to shoot them once he got his gun out, obviously. Otherwise they could have shot him and/or others.
If they had a knife or something then maybe he could just try to scare them off, but with guns, you have to act quick.

[Cha]

195. That's right..they could

fooking take them all in the walk-in freezer or somewhere and shoot all the witnesses. It's happened too many times.

[theHandpuppet]

79. Bingo!!!

Yep, the answer isn't rocket science.

[Richard Steele]

3. Sounds like some plain "self defense" on the face of it.

The "felony murder" charges in cases like this have always
kinda bothered me, though. I support them in some circumstances,
but stuff like this really seems to stretch the INTENT of
that law awfully thin, IMHO.

[MADem]

4. After robbing the store, the men turned to Lovell. They wanted his money, police said.

Gee, what part of that, coupled with FL law, don't the dead/wounded guys' relatives understand?

I'm not a real fan of guns, but that situation seems pretty cut and dried. The guy was carrying a gun legally, and the law provides him with that right of "self-defense without the duty to retreat."

I am entirely without sympathy for the thieves. I feel sorry for the family that they had thieves in the midst, but that's about the limit of the sympathy I can muster for them. This never would have happened had they not grabbed guns with the intent to rob people by threatening to kill them.

[Edweird]

63. It boggles the mind. They seem to feel they have the "right" to rob and steal

as they choose.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. Robbing and stealing is their occupation. Don't they have a right to a safe workplace?

:crazy: :sarcasm: :crazy:

[Edweird]

118. Acute lead poisoning is an occupational hazard.

[jollyreaper2112]

6. I don't have a problem with it

My concern with concealed weapons and situations like this is that the citizens with guns ("heroes," as the NRA would spin it) don't always have suitable training and practice to deal with the situation. If cops can screw up and shoot innocent bystanders, especially given all of their training, how much more likely is Joe Civilian to screw up? That this guy is an ex-Marine makes it seem likely he's a little more qualified. Usually you wind up with these "heroes" misidentifying targets and shooting the wrong people. I'm glad this guy had his shit together and didn't miss.

I don't mourn the death and injury of these idiots. They put the lives of others at risk in an armed robbery. They showed they wanted to play the game and one of them is dead. I don't think he's going to rob too many more stores.

[TnDem]

46. Well...

You obviously have not been to a police shooting range lately, have you? Most Carry Permit holders shoot better on average than your average cop at the range....I know, because I see it once a year.

I guess because most cops are required to qualify once a year,( in most jurisdictions).

Many CCP holders practice all the time. They are actually better shots than the police that are protecting you.

[michreject]

88. Ain't that the truth

I shoot with the Police all the time. Most of them are not gun people and only shoot when required to qualify. Most of the SWAT members are better shots though.

[A HERETIC I AM]

62. Regarding "suitable training"

Here is the wording of Florida Statute 790.06, License to carry a concealed weapon or firearm;

(h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:

1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;

4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;

6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or

7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor;

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;

From this page;
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/ch0790.htm

In other words, in this case your concerns are unwarranted. They don't give a concealed carry permit to just anyone that asks or wants one.

[H2O Man]

8. "But the men's friends

and family want to know how he could gun them down and not be charged." I guess the friends and family just don't get it, either.

[William769]

13. Thats the friends and family of the robbers.

[H2O Man]

15. Yes

I know that.

[William769]

17. Sorry I missread your post.

:spank:

[H2O Man]

20. No problem.

It just makes me think that the friends and family have a bit of a problem. They seem to think that the two robbers were just minding their own business, doing a dishonest day's work, when some deranged victim up and shot them.

[William769]

28. Thats my take also.

[Book Lover]

211. Yes, they do "have a bit of a problem": grief

Set aside the right and wrong of what each of these men did. Saying you all don't understand why grieving people say what they do makes me shake my head. I'd say the same thing in their place. Maybe later after my emotions had cleared, I'd be more cogent, but ask me these questions while I'm planning my grandson's funeral, and you'll get nothing but defense from me.

[H2O Man]

232. "Saying you

all don't understand why ...." Actually, you said that. That statement belongs to you, alone, and not to us.

[Book Lover]

241. Well, if we have to go down this road...

"I guess the friends and family just don't get it, either." - I gave you a reason why they "don't get it"

"They seem to think that the two robbers were just minding their own business, doing a dishonest day's work, when some deranged victim up and shot them." - Must I really de construct your sarcasm?

I can only hope you are treated more kindly when you are grieving.

[anitar1]

238. Maybe family is contemplating a wrongful death lowsuit ? n/t

[NaturalHigh]

10. What kind of ignorant jackass...

would think that the shooter should be charged with any kind of crime in this situation?

"But the men's friends and family want to know how he could gun them down and not be charged." Well, that might explain part of it. I'm willing to bet that the "friends and family" in this case have some familiarity with criminal activities themselves. Screw them. These little punks tried to hold up the wrong guy and learned a hard lesson. Hopefully, the survivor will have thirty or forty years in the joint to ponder said lesson.

[Vektor]

217. Well, a couple of armed robbers pointed their guns at a 71 year old man...

who happened to be an armed ex-Marine.

Tough luck for the bad guys.

Self defense, plain and simple - and justified.

[jpgray]

16. I'd rather he'd given up his money than see someone killed for it, but he was within his rights

[LisaL]

21. Oh give me a break. They have been plenty of people who gave

up their money but end up shot by robbers anyway. This guy had training, obviously, and I don't think he wanted to find out if the robbers would shoot him after he parts with his money.

[jpgray]

24. I just don't think any amount of cash is worth a man's life. But the Marine was within his rights

I won't judge his decision.

[mondo joe]

29. And I think when someone uses a gun to unlawfully threaten you, they accept the

risk of losing their own life should you be able to defend yourself.

[jpgray]

33. Absolutely. But to me a lost life is a greater tragedy than lost cash

[mondo joe]

35. I don't think the cash is really an issue. Even if they didn't demand anything from him at all,

once they used a weapon to intimidate or threaten the guy they assumed the risk of their own lives.

Since it was their gamble, I have zero problem with the outcome.

[jpgray]

41. I would only use potentially lethal force if I thought my life were in danger

If I thought an armed robber only wanted my pocket money, I'd just let him have it. Of course, I might be fatally wrong, and that's why the shooter in this case was well within his rights, and I don't judge him for his decision.

[LisaL]

48. Well, if someone was armed and asking for his

money, he just might have been thinking that his life was in danger.

[jpgray]

51. Sure, and I have no idea if that's the case--another reason I won't pass judgment here

There are usually lots of good reasons not to pass judgment. :D

[Edweird]

55. This guy felt the same way. "Just give them what they want" They killed him anyway.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/sfl-flbmayocol0624nbjun24,0,4308445.column

[jpgray]

57. There's plenty of risk involved with either choice

I don't begrudge the marine his choice, I just wouldn't be able to do it, personally.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. It doesn't matter. Your lack of a rah-rah-rah-go-boys attitude means you're an effete gun-grabber.

And you probably eat brie too.

[michreject]

89. Well..... I can only speak for myself

but I wouldn't be on my knees begging for my life for them not to kill me after I gave them my money. I would have shot them, or died in the process.

This is why I put on a gun when I get up in the morning and take it off when I go to bed.

[TX-RAT]

68. if I thought my life were in danger

When someone has a gun pointed at you, your life is in danger.

[LisaL]

36. You don't know if after getting their cash the robbers would have

just gone off on their merry way. There have been plenty a case where the robbers panicked and shot/killed their victims anyway. What this marine did was heroic in my opinion.
He might have saved the lives of others.

[jpgray]

43. True, there's risk there. But the marine took risks in shooting the gunmen

A firefight against two armed opponents can easily end with you dead or seriously injured, and innocent bystanders without the opportunity to defend themselves can end up the same way. There's risk in any choice made in such a situation. Again, I'm not saying what he did is wrong--the law has no problem with what he did. I'm just saying I wouldn't do the same in a similar situation.

[LisaL]

44. This marine seemed to know what he was doing.

Which is a good thing, cause it could have ended worse if someone who didn't know what he was doing got the gun out.
But I imagine this guy was very well trained.

[jpgray]

47. Lacking the training to engage hostile gunmen is another reason I wouldn't pull out a gun

:D I don't have a serious problem with this--it's almost similar in a way to a cop having been there and pulling out a gun. I'm just saying I wouldn't do the same thing for a few different reasons.

[LisaL]

52. I wouldn't do the same thing either cause I don't own a gun.

But that is neither here nor there.
Obviously somebody not knowing what they are doing should not be doing what this marine did.

[michreject]

91. Kill all the witnesses

No one left to ID you. This is the norm for bad guys now days.

[TnDem]

53. How I see it is....

It is the state's GAIN for not having to feed, clothe, and care for this waste of humanity for the next twenty years when he was subsequently convicted of armed robbery.

Good job shooter!

[jpgray]

56. I'm not quite ready to wholly write off a human being I know nothing about

While I don't have any serious problem with an individual defending himself, your comment about the state gaining by this "waste of humanity" dying makes me curious: do you support the death penalty for armed robbery? Or was that just a bit of hyperbole on your part?

[mondo joe]

58. Not trying to change your position, but once someone points a gun at me I know all I need

to know.

[jpgray]

59. I understand that. If I'm convinced all he wants is my money, I'll give it

It's academic, since the only gun I own is a Winchester replica my dad and I built--not very suitable for CCW permits.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. So, if cops show up, shout "drop that weapon," the mugger surrenders and doesn't get killed...

...you become disappointed?

[mondo joe]

82. I don't how you could draw that conclusion. I believe that if someone

unlawfully threatens me with a gun, that's all I need to know about them to be willing to shoot in self defense.

If the police can resolve the matter without anyone being shot, so much the better.

[Ghost in the Machine]

72. What more do you need to know about this waste of humanity?

11:15 pm, he and a friend burst into a sandwich shop, rob the cashier, then turn to rob a 71 year old man. For some reason I doubt that this was their first time doing it, and I also doubt they were stealing money to put in the collection plate a church on sunday.

Yes, they were a waste of skin.... and air...

Let me fill you in on a little secret. They weren't choirboys. They were criminals, probably with a drug habit to feed. Now here's another secret.. back in his younger days, living in Miami and Ft Liquordale, ole Ghost had a $1000 a day cocaine habit... but I NEVER robbed anyone or had to steal from anyone to support my habit. Luckily, I was able to rehabilitate myself and have been clean for 15 years now, but it still pisses me off that people use their habits as an excuse to rob and steal.

I would have shot the assholes too, had it been me they pulled a gun on.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. One of the robbers survived. For some reason the ex, sorry, former Marine...

...didn't go up and shoot him in the head. Does that disappoint you?

[mondo joe]

83. He's lucky he didn't shot too. But if he weren't out robbing old men at gunpoint

he wouldn't have needed to be lucky.

[Ghost in the Machine]

86. No, that's not what this is about at all. But you know that, don't you?

Don't try to cloud the issue with BS rhetoric. THERE WERE TWO ARMED ROBBERS WHO HAD JUST ROBBED A CASHIER, THEN TURNED TO A PATRON IN THE STORE TO ROB HIM.

Did that help clear it up for you? "Armed Robber" isn't a good career choice. You wind up dead or behind bars. If you don't have that in your mind when you start out, you're probably better off NOT starting down that road of life. Either way, it's not going to end good. These guys chose their path and sealed their destiny & fate. This no one's fault but their own that one is dead and one is injured. THEY chose to rob this particular shop. The old man just chose where he was going to eat dinner that night. Had these two guys NOT showed up there, odds are 99.999% sure that this Marine would have eaten dinner, gone home, put his gun up and gone to sleep.

In short, one robber got lucky and lived to tell about his experience. The other guy, not so lucky...

Am I disappointed that the Marine didn't finish him off? Hell no! THAT would have taken him outside the boundaries of the law by using excessive force and made him (almost) as guilty as the bad guys. The bad guy was down and no longer a threat. There's a fine line between self defense and vigilantism.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. OK, now we're into "I know you are but what am I" territory. I'm outta here. -nt

[mitchum]

139. See YOUR post #76 which contains the query...

"Does that disappoint you?"
YOU brought that rope. I just tied the knot.

[karlrschneider]

188. It disappoints ME.

...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

209. After seeing that subject line, I knew it was you before I saw the author.

[karlrschneider]

231. That's good. I hope to have the chance to kill a dirtbag before he murders you.

...

[Zodiak]

192. The State will do that instead

Did you read in the article where the injured kid is going to be charged with a capital murder because his friend was killed?

THAT is the part I have a problem with. Go to jail for armed robbery, sure, but to be killed because your partner was killed is extreme.

That is just insult added to injury...har har.

I have no problem with the shooting...just the law killing the surviving kid as if he is solely responsible for his partner's death

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

210. Worse, as if he had the intention to kill him. Manslaughter would be more appropriate. -nt

[Bluerthanblue]

129. let me fill you in on

something.

They don't appear to have had any criminal record.

They were having trouble getting through life. One was trying hard to get his GED-

They did something really stupid. They payed with their lives.

The shooter is no hero.

[mondo joe]

144. What does no criminal record or getting a GED have to do with it?

Everyone's first violent crime is their first.

Getting a GED is immaterial.

[mitchum]

150. But...but...but...the armed robbery was just a study break

"Everyone's first violent crime is their first" Yes, indeed.

[mondo joe]

151. I'm thinking George Bush, Dick Cheney and their ilk have advanced degrees.

I'm no respector of education when it comes to people fucking each other over. :-)

[Richard Steele]

154. Ordering him into a rest room took this far beyond a simple robbery situation.

"According to a police statement:
Arrindell ordered Lovell to hand over his wallet.
He intentionally dropped it on the floor and
refused to pick it up, saying he was afraid.
That's when Arrindell ordered him into the women's restroom.

I'm not saying he's a "hero"...I'm saying he's a man
who took a course of action necessary to avoid being
MURDERED in a Subway ladies' room. No more no less.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tammywammy]

198. Ditto

[Bluerthanblue]

201. no, i'm not

related to any of "these guys"-

Many people would welcome the opportunity to be having trouble with their "employees".

I'm sorry you are finding them untrustworthy. As for business being slow, you have plenty of good company.

I am NOT defending the use of armed robbery to 'get by' in life.
BUT- neither do i defend making the shooter a 'hero'.


If you were in a position to feel the need to resort to armed robbery, and someone responded by shooting you dead, and then was being paraded around like a "hero" for killing you, I would say the same thing about the person who killed YOU as i did about the person who did the shooting in this discussion.

You may not be able to see the 'enerta' that brings our society to the place it is in, but no one decides as a child "I think i want to grow up and rob "Sub"way sandwich shops, and mug people" for a living.

Your life experience may have given you insight into many things, but you don't seem to understand what not valuing your own life, or any one elses is like. That kind of hopless empiness is usually 'learned'.

And i sincerly hope you never do understand that perspective.

peace,
blu

[Ghost in the Machine]

219. Look, I've *been* desperate before. I know the feeling. BUT, again..

I didn't resort to robbing people. I got another freaking job. I'm originally from Miami, and have lived in Ft. Lauderdale too. There are many, MANY "daily work, daily pay" services there, as are there offices for Manpower and other Temporary services, not to mention the 100's of "street corner labor pools". Someone needing to make some extra cash can do so easily in South Florida. It just depends on what you're able or willing to do.

These guys had other choices, and they chose armed robbery over physical labor. They thought it was the "easy way" to score some quick cash without breaking a sweat. They chose door #3, Bob. Let's see what's behind door #3! OMG!! It's an innocent patron eating dinner in a restaurant you chose to rob! AND HE'S ARMED! POW!! You lost, thanks for playing.

BTW, if I was the robber and got killed, MY FAMILY wouldn't be trying to defend me, they'd be right there praising the heroic Marine. Then they'd probably tell the coroner just to toss my ass in a ditch somewhere because they no longer claimed me. That, my friend, is a fact of life.

People make choices every day. Sometimes they don't make the best choices, sometimes they make fatal choices. Either way, they made a concious choice, and it didn't turn out good for them. Would you prefer that I say to the one that survived "Sorry about your buddy, and hey, better luck next time!"??

Another thought: These guys also forced this man to make a choice. He chose to fight to live. Too many people still get killed in robberies, even though they "just handed over the money". This man had no way of knowing if they would still shoot him or not, and he feared for his life, yet was equipped with the ability to defend himself, and he chose to ifght back, or die trying. Go down swinging...

There is no way on earth to defend the actions of these criminals, nor is there any way the former Marine should be vilified. He was forced to act on their actions.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and we won't always agree 100% of the time with 100% of the people. I wish no one had to reach this level of hopelessness.

peace,

Ghost

[Bluerthanblue]

221. ya know-

i was begining to regret wasting time and bandwith trying to communicate on this thread, and then you post your patient, rational reply.

Thank you for taking the time, and more than that... the effort to put your position out there without all sorts of personal put- downs and other crud.

I actually agree with you on several points.

I don't want to see this man villified either. I imagine living with the aftermath of what he went through will torment him quite a bit as it is. And i don't 'rejoice' in that either. It actually pisses me off more than i have words to describe that we humans continue to treat each other with so little thought or compassion.

It's easy to see this from the perspective of the man who felt he needed to shoot 2 other humans in order to survive. It's more challenging to try and understand what drives people to do what the two 'robbers' did. I think our only hope of really lessening this kind of occurance is by looking at "how we got here"-

That is why I press the perspective that i do. I'm tired of repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again.

But I agree with you Ghost- I wish no one ever had to reach this level of hopelessness.

And while we may disagree on the ways which lead us to a point of agreement, at least we get there, without any blood being shed, or lives ended.

i wish you peace.

And thank you very much for your discussion.

blu

[Ghost in the Machine]

227. Thank you, too. Civil conversation is a lost art on some. I try not to be one of them.

Sometimes I fail, sometimes I hit it right on the head. I'd rather have a discussion than an argument any day.

:hi:

PEACE!

Ghost

[NashVegas]

80. Guy Was Holding a Gun on a 71 Year Old!

I'd call it a waste, as well.

[Bluerthanblue]

127. how old is Dustin Hoffman?

Clint Eastwood? Paul Newman?

[Retired AF Dem]

245. With almost 7 billion people on this planet

one life lost is a tragedy? Esp a life that has no social redeeming value?

[MADem]

153. He was an old guy, too--a former Marine. In his seventies.

Of course they say once a Marine, always a Marine, but he was a long way from his ACDU days.

[theHandpuppet]

81. Yep -- happens all the time

Knew an elderly gentleman with Parkinsons who worked at a convenience store to supplement his retirement. He was a total sweetheart, always a smile and kind word for everyone. Three lowlife, scumbag punks came in the store one night and held him up for 20 damn dollars, which he gave to them. Then they shot him in the head. A gentle, elderly, disabled man dead for 20 damn dollars.

I only wish he'd had a gun.

[Kingshakabobo]

128. See: The Brown's Chicken massacre...

Sorry, but if someone wants to lead me in to the back room or the bathroom and I'm armed; all bets are off.


http://www.pcgraffiti.com/PalatineNews.htm

PALATINE, Ill. –– Two men charged with killing seven people at a Brown's chicken restaurant in 1993 carefully planned the slayings, filling their pockets with bullets and wedging the back door shut so no one could escape, authorities said Saturday.

"They just did it to do something big," Palatine Police Chief John Koziel said. "They're people without a soul and that's all we know about them."

Juan Luna, 28, and James Degorski, 29, have been charged with seven counts of first-degree murder, and could face the death penalty if convicted.

"This was a horrible, brutal series of murders and one that we look at in the most serious way possible," Cook County State's Attorney Richard Devine said.

A judge on Saturday ordered the suspects held without bail. Prosecutors said Luna made a videotaped confession, and Degorski confessed orally before stopping a videotaped confession.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. I'd Give Someone My "Walking Around Money" Rather Than Shoot Em

but if someone put a gun in my face and I was packing I'd drop em...

[jpgray]

61. Pretty risky--one twitch and a gun in your face could end any chance of self-defense

Clearly the marine knew what he was doing, but there are risks involved with either choice. I won't judge anyone who makes a different choice, I'm just saying mine would probably be different if all I thought they were after was "walking around money" as you say.

[mondo joe]

84. But the guy hadthose risks thrust on him. Had he not been robbed at gunpoint

he wouldn't face which risk to take.

Like you, I can't fault him for whichever option he chose because he was forced to choose one or the other.

[anitar1]

239. If you read the article, you would see that Lovell was told to go to

the ladies restroom and was to be escorted by one of the robbers. That is when he took a chance and pulled his gun while the robber was distracted for a minute. Lovell has quite an interesting employment record.

[jpgray]

244. I wasn't there, so I can't judge what I would have done very well

But I just don't think I could make that choice. It's hard to tell how I would react under similar circumstances, but I'd like to think I'd just give the wallet and that would be that.

[NavyDavy]

18. Florida another southern state with backward a** laws....

murder is murder whether here or Iraq.....thats one of those ten commandments southern states always whine about....it doesn't say thou shall not kill, unless this or that period....

[atreides1]

25. Actually

The original translation is "Thou Shalt Not Murder", and self defense isn't murder.

[LisaL]

26. People should have a right to self-defense. South or North.

[NaturalHigh]

30. You're joking, right?

Self-defense is not murder.

[William769]

31. Actually it's one of the best laws in the United States.

And I am proud that I live in Florida under this law, and yes I have been registered to carry a concealed weapon since 1985.

[conspirator]

40. I would have done the same. If someone pointed a gun at me, I would kill him at my first chance

without any hesitation

[cgrindley]

99. Those of us who go to the range

spend most of our time deliberately practicing to shoot center mass in groupings of 3 shots or so. Killing the perp would probably be unavoidable. Especially with .45 ACP. I practice at 15 feet, 25 feet and 50 feet, and go every Sunday morning.

[TnDem]

54. I agree....

Power to the people....

[gollygee]

49. Which states don't allow people to defend themselves when someone

is pointing a gun at them?

[genie_weenie]

19. Ah, what a world. Self-defense is an unalterable

right especially when someone comes to rob you with the threat of force, unless it's the taxman coming for your money...

This is a strange land, this is not an excuse for the two thieves (although we do not know their mental or socio-economic condition), but where else would a people allow themselves to be robbed of TRILLIONS of dollars to fund the Masters of War and delude ourselves that this is what we want since We are the Government.

I'm glad Mr. Lovell wasn't injured.

[H2O Man]

22. Actually

I think we have a pretty good idea of their "mental condition."

[NaturalHigh]

32. I don't care about their "mental or socio-economic condition".

They tried to rob a guy at gunpoint. The guy defended himself and shot them. That's all I need to know about this situation.

[genie_weenie]

39. The government robs you at gunpoint every payday

especially to pay for the funding of War. 900 Billion dollars last year.

[mondo joe]

42. Sorry, but taxes aren't robbery.

And when Congress makes choices -- even incredibly lame ones -- it's still not robbery.

[NaturalHigh]

50. Your opinion of taxes...

has exactly NOTHING to do with this case, and I still don't care about their "mental or socio-economic condition". Whether they were dirt poor or batshit crazy, if they hadn't tried to rob this guy, he wouldn't have shot them.

[Mike Daniels]

38. In this particular case, I don't really care about the mental or economic situation of the robbers

It'd be one thing if they tried to break into the store after hours and make off with any loot they could find and didn't threaten anyone.

It's another thing when they use the threat of force to rob someone of their money.

[stanwyck]

34. Sorry. Have to correct you on the "ex-Marine"

in your subject. There are no "ex-Marines", only former Marines. I've been corrected on this numerous times. Don't say "ex-Marine" within earshot of a Marine. You'll get the same tirade I've been handed.

[Ian David]

37. Especially now that they can recall ANYONE to active duty? n/t

[Jacobin]

45. That has been the law in this country from the beginning

You are entitled to use deadly force to defend yourself and others from imminent harm. Two robbers armed with guns, sticking you up, gives you the right to shoot.

And it should

[aikoaiko]

64. Shooting in self-defense is not about giving someone what they deserve

Its about stopping a threat to yourself or others. This case in FL seems very clear that the former-Marine was stopping a real threat to his life and the lives of others.

John Lovell is a bona fide hero

[Javaman]

65. so the ex-marine kills somone but the robber will be charged with murder...

okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

:banghead:

[Bluerthanblue]

106. oh my

this bothers you too???

I was begining to think that i was living in a bubble.

What hope is there that this is just the begining of even worse times????

I'm really struggling to find something to make the future anything other than disaster-:shrug:

thanks for voicing your dissent.


blu

[ShaneGR]

114. The robber should be charged with murder...

If it wasn't for his own actions his friend would be alive. No one made them buy guns illegally and commit armed robbery with a deadly weapon.

[Javaman]

121. No one made that marine fire his gun either. nt

[mondo joe]

123. No, but they MADE him have to choose to do it or risk their kindness.

They forced the situation on him.

[Javaman]

132. Actually no. He was carrying the fire arm...

he made his choice long before they robbed the place. nt

[mondo joe]

142. Bullshit. The choice they forced on him was to defend himself or not.

Had they not tried to victimize him, there'd be no issue now.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluerthanblue]

124. no one made

this man carry a gun around in his belt either-
No one pulled the trigger but him-

That is the problem with weapons. If you use them to threaten someone else, you have to be willing to die, or be the 'killer'.-

It's an ugly game. But the results are real. The blood has a smell. The life going out of a body is something no movie, tv show- or video game will ever really capture. The nightmares will be real. The image in the shooters mind will never be erased.

He isn't a hero.

He is a victim too. And as long as people praise him, there will be more.

He is alive, but he isn't ever going to be the same. And i do not admire or condone his actions.
The thieves actions speak 'loser'- so do his.
blu

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

214. Murder is the INTENTIONAL taking of a life. Reckless endangerment doesn't cut the mustard.

I'd agree with a manslaughter charge for the surviving robber.

[ContraBass Black]

199. I think the former marine was justified to shoot, but this is a strange law,

Charging him with a capital offense for a crime that he admittedly did not intend or commit himself, because he was in the immediate vicinity committing another crime.

I should clarify:

The man who actually shot and killed the robber committed no crime, because he was acting in self defense. So, the wounded robber is charged with the criminal murder of a man legally killed in self-defense because he was in the immediate area committing a related, but lesser crime. How does this hold together legally?

[Kingshakabobo]

125. It make sense to me. He conspired to commit a felony.....

Someone was killed during the commission of the felony. Sorry, the perpetrator is just as responsible for that death as the shooter.......but the shooter is protected by law - as well he should be.

[Javaman]

133. True, but once you start carrying a gun, a person has then made the choice

that at some point they will have to use it. Just carrying a gun and no believing that you will use it is crazy. However, death is still death. And as a result the shooter should still be held accountable. Cause and effect.

[Kingshakabobo]

137. WTF? Are you saying the 71 year old man with the licensed firearm should be charged? n/t

[Javaman]

138. What does age matter under the eyes of the law? nt

[mondo joe]

146. With what should he e charged?

[Javaman]

161. oy, why do I even bother. nt

[mondo joe]

164. Good question. Why don't you answer the question? With what should he be charged?

?

[Kingshakabobo]

160. *sigh* Nothing. I was distinguishing him from the young perpetrators.

never mind

[Javaman]

162. Oh I see, younger shooters have itchier trigger fingers so their for they

should be tried over the older guy whose finger is still itchy but not as itchy as the younger ones.

Yeah that argument really holds up in court.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

145. Using a gun is not a problem. Using a gun illegally is. NT

[Edweird]

157. No, what's crazy is assuming that everyone that carries a gun will have to use it.

No sane person wants their life to be in danger. Carrying a gun is simply preparation for the absolute worst.

[Javaman]

163. And it also assumes the worst from your fellow citizen. nt

[mondo joe]

165. No assumption required. Some of your fellow citizens will try to hurt you, and

even murder you.

That's not an assumption - that's an evidence based conclusion.

[Edweird]

168. No. There are no assumptions, only preparations.

There ARE bad people out there. This man was prepared for the gravest extreme. And, unfortunately, this was visited on him by others. I live about 15 miles from where this happened. And I can tell you that it is crazy here, and there is very little respect for human life. What is your solution? Let these animals shoot us? Sorry, no. I see no fault in this mans actions. He had the choice of living or dying, and he chose living. Had there been no robbers with guns no one would have died. The only people responsible for the death and injury are the robbers.

[cloudbase]

252. Indeed.

When I'm out flying, I always wear a parachute. My expectation is that I won't have to use it, but it's there should I be down to my last option to stay alive. Man plans, shit happens.

[Ghost in the Machine]

189. Yes, that's the way it works. The two robbers were involved in criminal activity.

They are responsible for their OWN ACTIONS. They conspired together to commit a crime, and as a result of this conspiracy, one of them was killed. They hold the other conspirator responsible.

The former Marine did not CAUSE the robbers death. Yes, he may have EFFECTED the robber's death, but the robber CAUSED his own death by participating in a dangerous activity.

In short, they both got what they deserved. Period.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

216. The criminal activity being armed robbery, NOT MURDER.

I'd buy the argument that each other willingly put the other in danger by agreeing to participate in a robbery. A manslaughter charge would be OK by me. But conmsidering it murder is just twisting reality.

This crazy law is just an excuse to give the punishist perverts the death jollies they crave.

[Ghost in the Machine]

220. Yes, but had they shot the Marine, it would have been murder or attempted

murder, not manslaughter. What the law is doing is sticking the crime on the survivor that would have been stuck on HIM had his armed robbery attempt been successful. This is purely my speculation on it, as I am no lawyer, professor, judge or law scholar.

I can understand where you are coming from, and see the point that you are arriving at. I just have no sympathy whatsoever for a criminal. When I was living on the wrong side of the law, I KNEW my consequences. Jail or death. If I had gotten busted, I wouldn't be blaming the cop that busted me, I would have blamed my own stupid self for slipping up and getting caught. There's no place for whiners on the dark side of life.

[porphyrian]

66. They attacked him, and he was legally carrying his gun. Self defense.

If he had shot them without being personally attacked, it would be a different story.

[cigsandcoffee]

67. I guess they won't be terrorizing any more restaurants.

Kudos to the Marine for refusing to be a victim.

[cobalt1999]

71. They got what they were asking for.

One less armed robber in the world. Hopefully the other one will be put away for a long time too.

[verse18]

74. If they had not been trying to rob someone

he wouldn't be dead. It's pretty simple.

"But the men's friends and family want to know how he could gun them down and not be charged."

I wonder when the family is going to yell lawsuit.

[originalpckelly]

78. I know, this is complete and total bullshit.

We're sorry your family member was so disrespectful of other people's lives that he participated in an armed robbery, and was shot in the process of holding someone up with a gun, but us normal people are going to let you sue someone who was clearly defending themselves. If anything the guy should win an award for bravery.

[zagging]

75. Solid Steel Balls

Dude's got major rocks. Can't fault him one bit.

[originalpckelly]

76. How could there be any question about self defense from a person with a gun?

I mean if someone pulls a gun on you, and you have a gun legally obtained and concealed, what are you supposed to do?

I hope the family of the robber who was killed understands that when someone has a gun pulled on them, most people don't take too kindly to that. It isn't exactly like these guys were handing out candy or something, they were pointing guns at people. How much more risk of death needs to be presented to someone before they can defend themselves?

[distantearlywarning]

77. This situation could easily have been avoided...

...if the robbers had chosen not to commit a crime.

Like many others in this thread, I don't feel any sympathy for them at all. And I think less of their families for questioning the right of the "victim" to act in self-defense. They should be mourning the fact that their family members were foolish enough to put themselves in that situation.

Although I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here on DU, I also think the Florida law is a good one. I support the right of any citizen to defend themselves when attacked, and I find the idea that one should EVER have to legally retreat from an attacker totally abhorrent. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's ammoral to insist that anyone do that.

[Mike Daniels]

85. I think the idea of retreating is iffy at best if the person has a gun

Granted, most people, even those with CCW permits, don't probably have the skill or control to do what this Marine did at gunpoint and survive.

That said, unless you totally catch the assailant daydreaming, I imagine if you try to hoof it out of there you still stand a good a chance of being shot so you may as well go down fighting.

[Laurier]

256. Very well said.

I agree entirely, and could not likely have said it as succinctly. :hi:

[LeftHander]

87. In other news, 9 year old killed by stray bullet from robbery...nt

I guess I would take a bullet before I would risk other lives or take one.

Hard to say. But I just don't think it is right for us all to walking around armed.

[mondo joe]

96. It's your right to feel that way. I'd say it's natural selection in action.

[mitchum]

92. That's the occupational hazard of being a predator. Rest In Dirt

[Bluerthanblue]

93. america the land of the

grave.

i'm really learning to hate us

[mondo joe]

95. Hate "us"? For an elderly man defending himself when being robbed at gunpoint?

Or for them trying to rob him?

The latter is a terrible shame.

[Bluerthanblue]

103. for thinking that a man

who shoots to people to death in a sandwich shop is a hero-

For valuing our SHIT- our possessions so much, that we see the lives of impoversihed people with no hope for ANY kind of a future as nothing more than 'vermin' or 'animals' who prey on the "privliged".

Mondo joe- you and I have traded words before, and i've chosen not to reply- because we hold very different perspectives on many issues- but i can't be quiet here.

If the man who shot these thieves had been black, and the assailiants had been white, i am willing to bet my life that he would have been charged. I do NOT condone the armed robbery of any one/place/thing- but to hear people singing the "he's my HERO" chorus' for this "Clint Eastwood- wannabe" i cringe for the future of this F*&Ked up country - this wasteland America has BECOME.

There is nothing praise-worthy about what this man did. Watch for more vigilante justice comming soon.-

The 'wild-west' cowboy mentality that * unleashed on us is bearing fruit. We've always had "bad-guys"- we always will- at least as long as the imbalance in OPPORTUNITY exists in this world.
And now under* and Jebs 'expert leadership', we will have legally armed 'vigilante's-

Maybe i have outlived my ability to believe in the hope for human 'kind' entirely.
there is nothing really promising about the future.
I fear for my childrens future. For the future of everyone.

sorry,
peace,
blu

[Warren DeMontague]

107. Uh, it was the robbers who valued the SHIT so highly they pointed guns at people to TAKE it.

Yeah, the guy is a hero. He defended himself, and in the process he took two dangerous predators off the streets. He wasn't a "vigilante", he didn't go out looking for this, they picked him. And that's their bad luck, isn't it?

You fear for your children's future? And you don't think you'd be scared if they were stuck in a 7-11 that was being held up?

I don't care about dialectical materialism, the "opportunity imbalance", Mumia or any other convoluted bullshit rationales anyone wants to come up with for shitheads who point guns at people and demand things. Good fucking riddance to these assholes.

[Bluerthanblue]

109. this guy is no hero

he is a man who killed two people.

There is no glory in this.

I have absolutely no material possessions that are worth a persons life.
I do know people who have enough of a lack of material possessions that they have become so desperate that they are willing to chance death and jail rather than continue to live in want- I would never encourage them to seek stealing as a remedy- NOR would i call them "heros" if they were to sink to that level of desperation.

And this man is nothing more than the extreem end of the other side of the spectrum.

It is easy for white males who have never faced the reality of what being denied opportunities based on 'luck'- (not being a minority) to never bother their pretty little heads about what life might be like on the 'flip' side.

When all the 'macho' gun toting 'might makes me right' people kill off all the 'low-lifes' it will be an interesting world for you to rule over. Just don't ever turn your back, as long as there is one person left besides you, you'll be vunerable.

And i'll be glad to be long since dead.

The best way to keep others from wanting what you have is to help them have what they need too- but that doesn't fit in with this greed addicted society.

good luck to you-
blu

[mondo joe]

110. I don't know why you think this is about possession. They had him at gunpoint.

He could have given then all his money and still been shot anyway.

But go ahead - call the victim "extreme" for protecting himself against predators.

[Bluerthanblue]

119. yes, he could have

given them all his money and still been shot- He couldn't control what they did, exept to kill them-

And when you stop and look at this, they could have taken whatever they got and left.

We will never know wether they intended to shoot anyone, all we know is that they had the potential, and did not use it to accomplish what they were doing up to the point the man who also held the potential, chose to USE his.

Iran might not look like much of a sub-shop, but if you don't take a stand somewhere, then what is to stop the 'us' from spreading "democracy" at the point of a gun to the entire world??? (i can't believe other countries haven't begun asking themselves this)


Putin has alot of 'potential' at his disposal- so does *- As long as it exists, the potential will hold us all hostage.

Is this the best life has to offer???- living in a highly armed world, where the threat of those who come by weapons 'justly' or 'black-market' clouds everything? From our children in school, to having dinner out, to simply breathing air???

At what point do we say enough?

i'm tired.

[mondo joe]

122. But THEY made the choice, and FORCED a choice on him.

His choice was: Do nothing and risk being killed; try self defense and risk killing them or getting killed.

I don't blame him for his choice in the least, and it seems he was well served by being armed.

[Bluerthanblue]

126. no one forced

him to choose to shoot.

That was his choice alone.

And he is the one who will live with it.
He didn't make a positive out of a negative.
everyone lost in this one.



(were you in favor of invading Iraq?)

[annarbor]

130. Just curious...

If the former Marine was an off-duty cop, would you still hold the same opinion?

And for the record, I did not support the invasion of Iraq. Not that the invasion has a damned thing to do with this situation.

Ann Arbor

[mondo joe]

141. No one said he was forced to shoot - but the forced a choice on him

against his choosing -- that choice being risk being shot or risk shooting.

I don't think he lost in this one - he did nothing wrong.

Edit to add: I opposed invading Iraq, which had nothing to do with this.

[Bluerthanblue]

170. well, Saddam had the choice

to surrender to * - and he 'forced' * to wage war.

You may not see the connection, but it there. And people will exploit it.

and it will continue to influence people.

Just as idolizing the shooter in this sad robbery gone bad will.

Can you HONESTLY say that you believe if this man had been a black man, and the shooters had been suburban white boys that no charges would be considered on him??

[mondo joe]

174. How does this have anything to do with my not supporting the Iraq war?

Iraq was illegally invaded.

This guy was illegally threatened.

I don's support either action.

To answer your other question: I have no idea what the race of anyone involved is.

[Bluerthanblue]

191. what is "legal" ????

What does it really matter??

By whose measure was the Iraq invasion 'illegal'?- Who is going to enforce the law if those who march around the globe demanding others obey the law are the law breakers???

What difference did 'legality" make to the iraq invasion??

The fact that Iraq was 'illegally' invaded doesn't make the senseless loss of life any less senseless does it? It doesn't make the deaths of the civillians and soldiers any more 'acceptable'-

You don't support the man being threatened, but since he was threatened, you do support his choice to use violence in his defence. His choice left one man dead, and another close to death. Their actions leading up to this, clearly influenced their fate- but you can't remove the reality that the man who did the shooting did so, ultimately by his own choice-

As to the issue of race- refuse to answer the question if you want to.- You have that right.

My question holds all the relevant information you need.

[mondo joe]

194. Yes, since he was threatened I definitely support his self defense.

Sure - he could have opted to not defend himself and had his brains shot out in the women's restroom at the Subway. Sometimes people make choices that do not serve them well - like voting for Geirge Bush.

The US was not threatened by Iraq. I do not support the invasion or occupation of Iraq.

[Bluerthanblue]

206. he also might have found

himself with no wallet, shaken, and traumatized, but with no bullets missing from his gun, and looking at mug shots- but we won't ever know that for sure, because he blinked.

I am not condemning him for his actions- it takes someone very strong and brave to face down people you fear and not respond instinctual-ly- I wouldn't carry a gun around for that reason alone, if no other- but you fail to factor in any "act of will" on this mans part.

If Saddam HAD WMD- and had used them on the 'coalition' in response to the 'illegal invasion' would you consider him in the same light as the shooter?

Does that mean Iran would be justified for 'striking' us first??? After all we are in their "Sub"way' shop, we've already ravished one 'body' there, and we're demanding their 'wallet' while shoving them into the 'womens-room'????

[mondo joe]

248. He "blinked"? Gamble your life away if you want, but it's psycho to expect others to do it.

Evolution equips us with a survival instinct. In a few of us that may get twisted. But most of us understand it.

Yes, there was an "act of will" on his part - an act of will to protect himself from people trying to victimize him, and in all likelihood murder him.

That's not "blinking" - that's acting appropriately and within his human right.

You're completely off base in comparing this to Saddam Hussein. This was not a preemptive attack.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. "were you in favor of invading Iraq?"

Wow. Do we have a prize for the absolute biggest fucking Red Herring/Straw Man argument? This has gotta win.

[Bluerthanblue]

169. call it anything you wish-

if you refuse to see how actions effect other actions that is completely up to you.

Pre-emptive war uses the same excuses that pre-emptive violence does.

* used the "we can't wait till there is mushroom cloud" excuse to defend his violence. Some 'logical' people 'bought it'. Others use it for an excuse to defend using violence to prevent the spread of violence. I say bull-shit.

If people continue to condone and advocate deadly force as a way to counter the use of deadly force the cycle will end one day. When there is only one person left on earth.

:shrug:

I am not condemning this man. I refuse to call him a 'hero' though. And you will never convince me that violence is the answer. We wouldn't have to keep using it if it was.

[mondo joe]

179. The victim here is not guilty of pre-emptive violence. He was THREATENED.

Pre-emptive violence would have described him shooting someone who did nothing to him.

[Warren DeMontague]

226. I'm gonna go out on a limb, here, and guess you've never been mugged or robbed.

If you honestly believe that someone standing in front of you pointing a gun at you doesn't constitute a real-time "attack", if you really think that it's legitimate to compare the behavior of the United States government in Iraq to ONE guy clearly defending himself from two hoodlums in a hold-up... I dunno, I really don't know what to say to that. Fucking astounding.

:shrug: is right.

And yet, you say "I am not condemning this man"... Really? Why not? I assume you condemn the Bush adminstration for invading Iraq- I know I sure as shit do. So, if the situations are equivalent, why aren't you condemning this man, who waged pre-emptive violence on some misunderstood youth that he really ought to have offered a scholarship to, or something.

[Bluerthanblue]

229. no-

i've never been mugged or robbed.

only violently raped.

that wouldn't count though would it?
I couldn't possibly understand what it feels like to be vunerable and threatened.
I couldn't possibly understand what might drive a person to be willing to kill another human being.

How DARE i even attempt to question anyone about how feeling like you have nothing left to lose would feel???

Sorry-
I'm done.

You will not hear -even if i could speak more clearly.

I wish you peace,
blu

[Warren DeMontague]

230. I am sorry to hear that.

But for whatever reason, I think you're extending your sympathy to the wrong 'victims' in this particular case.

peace to you, too.

[LisaL]

173. No one forced him to shoot? Well, the guy wanted to live.

He probably is in a good shape and might have 20 good years left if not more.
Why do you think they were taking him into the bathroom?
Well, he probably didn't want to find out if they would shoot him or not after they gotten him into the bathroom.
So, excuse me if I am not gonna cry because the robber is dead.

[Bluerthanblue]

208. not asking you to cry-

for anyone here Lizzy.

I think this guy is probably very physically fit- I'm glad he was not physically injured.
It's too bad it couldn't have ended with no one being killed.

Death can be put on hold sometimes, but it always wins in the end. It's a shame we feel the need to hurry things along so often.

[brentspeak]

257. .

.

[Warren DeMontague]

149. "At what point do we say enough"

I think when you stand up to someone who is robbing you at gunpoint, that IS saying "enough".

And this doesn't have jack diddly shit to do with Putin, Iran, or anything else in your post.

[Bluerthanblue]

176. no, i can very clearly stand up to anyone

and say ENOUGH- without any gun in my hands. And yes, i risk paying with my life for this stand, but if i was armed, i would not only be putting my life at risk, i'd be putting my chance of not being forced to end some one else's life at risk as well. That is a bad wager, no matter how i look at it.

You may not see the connections between this and the nuclear arms 'race'- (threat)
Because you cannot see it, does not mean it does not exist.

Many very smart people see and have seen this connection.

Albert Einstien for one. and i don't have a fraction of his intelligence.

[mondo joe]

181. Albert Einstein advocated against self defense?

?

[karlrschneider]

200. well, that for certain is obvious, since you can't even fucking spell his name.

:eyes:

[Bluerthanblue]

204. I'm not claiming to be

any 'brain trust' or linguist- and I never have.

Sorry if that irritates you. Do you have so little to say in response that all you can seem to do is criticize my spelling????

I'll take that as a positive-

thank you.

[karlrschneider]

205. I was basically agreeing with your observation about your own intellect.

Sorry to be so amenable.

[Bluerthanblue]

207. no, I'm sorry

that you have so little to offer other than personal attacks.

peace,
blu

(but then, i've always hoped for the best out of people- stupid-girl that i am :hi:)

[Richard Steele]

152. Ordering him into a rest room leaves little doubt what their intentions were.

"According to a police statement:
Arrindell ordered Lovell to hand over his wallet.
He intentionally dropped it on the floor and
refused to pick it up, saying he was afraid.
That's when Arrindell ordered him into the women's restroom."

At that point, is there any REASONABLE doubt that
his life was in imminent danger?

[Warren DeMontague]

147. What part of the concept of "self defense" are you completely unable to grasp?

And don't you DARE talk to me about "white males" and "pretty little heads". You don't have a single. fucking. clue. who I am, where I've been, what I've seen, what I've been through.

People who play the lets-make-blanket-assumptions-about-people game should back to their dorm room and their Che posters and their tattered copy of Das Kapital... how about them apples? Seems to me they're the ones who don't know jack about the real world.

[A HERETIC I AM]

250. This post fascinates me...

The entire post is just interesting as hell to me but this line sort of jumps right out;

I do know people who have enough of a lack of material possessions that they have become so desperate that they are willing to chance death and jail rather than continue to live in want

People you personally know. Fair enough. What about these two guys that went into a Subway restaurant with the intention of committing armed robbery? Is it your honest opinion they "live in want"? That is a characterization that strains the bounds of credulity. They might be poor, they might be unemployed, hell, they might just be lazy, criminal fucks who feel completely at ease with the idea of taking money at gunpoint. If your life is so desperate that your default position is armed robbery in order to survive, their personal problem is a lot larger than whether or not they have a "lack of material possessions".

The best way to keep others from wanting what you have is to help them have what they need too- but that doesn't fit in with this greed addicted society.

The larger point is, no matter WHAT the situation these two criminals (lets call them what they are, shall we?) needed, they sure as hell didn't need to take money from others at gunpoint. And since they tried to with the wrong guy, they got precisely what they deserved.

[Javaman]

166. Call me crazy but I consider a hero someone who contributes to the good of society

not taking a fellow humans life.

but that's me, I'm crazy. :eyes:

[karlrschneider]

202. Getting rid of criminal scum does contribute to the good of society.

Why are you on the side of the perps here? Do you rob people at gunpoint?

[cherokeeprogressive]

223. Call me crazy but I consider a hero

to be a large sandwich made of a long crusty roll split lengthwise and filled with meats and cheese (and tomato and onion and lettuce and condiments)

Hey, but that's just me.

[A HERETIC I AM]

247. About time somebody said something funny. This was getting tedious.

Thanks for the levity. Perfect timing. We now return you to the acrimonious debate, already in progress.

[mondo joe]

108. They were preying on an elderly man. This this he wasn't as vulnerable as most elderly

people are.

I don't know that it makes him a hero. But I'm much more happy that it turned out the way it did rather than the reverse.

[Bluerthanblue]

112. i don't believe

that he was targeted because he was "elderly"-

The sandwich shop wasn't 'elderly'- i think they were desperate and stupid.

I agree with you in that i'm glad he didn't die. I only wish we could work towards a world where no one had to die for 'things'- or lack there-of.

it is also good to hear you don't consider him a "hero"-

thanks,
blu

[Mike Daniels]

136. Maybe the impoverished people you have such pity for

should haven't threatened other people with implied violence. They could still be alive.

Sorry buddy, but once you point a gun at someone in an effort to rob them you've crossed the line from deserving any sympathy. I don't give a good God damn if you're one day from being kicked on the street. If you pull a gun and stick it in somebody's face you're a thug and if you get shot by the person you threatened you have noone but yourself to blame.

[NaturalHigh]

240. "Vermin" or "animals"...

describe aptly these two who tried to rob a man at gunpoint. I'll waste no sympathy for them. Hopefully, the survivor of the two criminals will spend a few decades in prison pondering the choices that he made to land him there.

[mitchum]

94. He's responsible for two handguns BEING TAKEN OFF THE STREETS...

so, I don't quite understand why the anti-gun people aren't applauding him

[cgrindley]

98. Good for him

if this happened more often, then perhaps assholes would think twice before trying to rob decent people. Pin a medal on the guy.

[ReadTomPaine]

102. More from the article...

According to a police statement: Arrindell ordered Lovell to hand over his wallet. He intentionally dropped it on the floor and refused to pick it up, saying he was afraid. That's when Arrindell ordered him into the women's restroom.

"The victim believed he would be executed and when he noticed <Arrindell> distracted ... reached behind his back, removed his loaded .45 caliber handgun from his holster and fired seven rounds," the statement said.

...

His attorney, Wesley White, of Yulee, near Jacksonville, said he has known Lovell for 19 years and described him as a "quiet Clint Eastwood-type you don't want to mess with." He is a former Marine who was a member of the helicopter detail that transported Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, White said.

This seem pretty cut and dried to me. They played with fire and discovered that it burns.

[ShaneGR]

115. Sounds to me like they were planning on killing him..

Why else would they take him to the bathroom.

[ReadTomPaine]

116. Hard to say for sure, but in his situation the same thought would have crossed my own mind. n/t

[Robb]

117. Not just a Marine, but a Marine One Marine...

The robbers absolutely picked the wrong guy to monkey with. Tragic nonetheless, but I'll agree with upstream posters that given a bad situation and good training, he did the right thing.

[ReadTomPaine]

120. I was thinking the same thing.

The assailants were thinking 'elderly Clark Kent' and instead got a retired superman.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. Wait a minute. A guy, being robbed at gunpoint, killed his attackers in self-defense?

What's the problem? :shrug:

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShaneGR]

113. Same EXACT thing happened in Fort Myers a few weeks ago...

Two armed robbers walked into a family owned convenience store and proceeded to rob the place. They were teenagers. One had a shotgun the other had a handgun. The one with the shotgun fired a shot over the head of the owner of the store. The owner dropped to the ground, grabbed his own handgun from behind the counter and came up firing. Killed the kid with the shotgun (headshot) and shot the other kid in the stomach. The survivor fled and was later arrested while getting treatment for the gunshot. Owner had valid permits for the weapon and the police actually charged the surviving robber with Murder 1 for taking part in the robbery that caused the death of his buddy. Poetic justice in my opinion.

I'm not a big gun supporter, but charging people for defending themselves makes absolutely no sense to me.

[baldguy]

134. What if he was wrong?

What if he only THOUGHT they were armed? What if he only THOUGHT they were a threat?

What if he had missed & hit a bystander?

What if he just didn't like the way they looked at him? Would they still be singing his praises?

[cobalt1999]

135. and what if they shot everyone in the store?

"What if" games are stupid and are a poor debating tactic. See how easy it is to spin that around on you?

[mondo joe]

143. What if Eleanor Roosevelt Could Fly?

Since he KNEW they were armed, what is the purpose of the hypotheticals?

[Kingshakabobo]

180. What if Superman was a Nazi? n/t

[mondo joe]

187. I don't know - but if he was a communist...

[QC]

212. What if Robert E. Lee had had nuclear weapons?

Answer me that one, smartypants!

[Richard Steele]

148. And "what if" monkeys flew out of his butt?

Hey, "what if" you actually comment on WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED
instead of dragging fantasy scenarios into the discussion?

[MADem]

155. IT's fun to speculate, but all of your "what ifs" have nothing to do with this incident.

They actually were armed. They actually were a threat. They robbed the store first, then went after him eating his sammich.

He was a former Marine. They all know how to shoot. I rather suspect that there weren't too many "bystanders" milling about at any rate. There was a robbery going on.

I'll bet the guy didn't like the way they looked at him--that's about the only thing that doesn't need a refutation. I don't think anyone would like the look on anyone's kisser if they were pointing a gun at them!!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

175. Then the court would deal with it in the proper way.

"What if's" are goddamned stupid reasoning.

Geez, What if it was found out that he also kept them from dumping 400 pounds of mustard gas into downtown?

We can play the "What if?" bullshit game all fucking day.

:eyes:

[QC]

186. What if my aunt had balls?

Would she be my uncle?

[MrSlayer]

140. Live by the gun, die by the gun.

Good job Mr. Lovell. It's ridiculous to think he should be charged with anything.

[pitohui]

159. i think they should give the marine a medal

police are not controlling crime so these armed robbers will continue to endanger everyone until they are stopped

that marine protected himself from being robbed and possibly killed, and plus he guaranteed that at least one of these shitheads will never, ever rob anyone at gunpoint again

we simply can't tolerate these bold armed robbers coming into public places, i don't know what it's like in florida, but in the greater new orleans area, it isn't worth your life to go to a fast food place or a pharmacy, you just never know, i won't even buy gasoline after dark

when these two criminals picked up a gun to commit a crime, they proved they were willing to threaten, hurt, and kill others to get $$$$, i also agree w. florida police that the other armed robber should be charged in the killing, none of this would have happened if they had not planned and executed a serious felony endangering people just trying to eat a damn sandwich

i wish i could buy that marine a beer! i'm glad he's still sharp and on the ball at age 71

i don't know why we can't be liberals and still acknowledge that people who kill others for money are evil

[scrinmaster]

167. Good shoot.

Unfortunately, the state of Florida won't let me get a CCW for another 13 months, when I turn 21.

[cgrindley]

171. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the term ex-marine an insult?

Isn't the correct usage "former marine"?

[LisaL]

177. I didn't know that. Live and learn.

[pitohui]

225. probably not meant as an intentional insult but sure you're right

i try to refer to him as a marine or former or retired marine in my post

i doubt anyone was trying to "dis" this hero, i think the reporter just erred on the usage

[Rabrrrrrr]

178. Damn right he was within his rights. Good for him! Too bad he didn't kill 'em both.

But on the other hand, maybe it's funnier that the living one is now charged with the dead guy's death.

Bwuhahahahahaha!!

Criminal fucks deserve to be toasted.

[tammywammy]

182. Good

Two men were robbing him at gun point and leading him to a bathroom. They deserved to be shot and the other robber deserves to be charged with murder as well.

[Catchawave]

183. Very simple really,

Don't rob people.

[karlrschneider]

184. Good for Mr. Lovell!

:toast:

[Louie the XIV]

193. 1 less thug on the streets of Florida today

Thank you Mr. Lovell for taking this POS out of circulation.

[yorgatron]

196. i was trained that you never point a gun at anyone you don't intend to shoot.

John Lovell assumed (correctly) that anyone pointing a gun at him intended to kill him.
2 more idiots learned that lesson the hard way,and shame on anyone having any sympathy for those idiots.

[mondo joe]

197. Hm, I wonder if he's a vegetarian.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070629/BREAKINGNEWS/70629003/1086

''What he did last night was unbelievable Samaritan spirit,'' said shop owner Khalid Malik.

Lovell already was a great customer at the Jacaranda Square Subway, which is located west of Fort Lauderdale.

Malik said: He comes by almost every night, slides into a back booth and orders the six-inch veggie sub, cookie and soft drink. But now, said Malik, ``I love him a lot more.''

***

At one point during his Marine career, the Kentucky native served as a pilot for presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. After retiring from the Corps, he became a pilot for Delta and Pan Am.

[pitohui]

228. sounds like a TOTALLY cool older dude, veggie or not EOM

,

[Richard Steele]

203. At this point in the thread, I'm just grateful they weren't robbing an Olive Garden.

[tammywammy]

215. LOL

:rofl:

Robbing the Olive Garden while smoking after doing a circumcision is more like it.

[Richard Steele]

224. And let's pray that the pistol-packing former Marine doesn't offer any opinions on breast feeding!

New Du hard-drives go:

[Jed Dilligan]

213. Obviously self-defense

but pinning murder on Gadson is a pretty big stretch.

It reminds me of when the guys whose meth lab started a wildfire were charged with the murder of the firemen who died. Maybe reckless endangerment, but not murder. Sheesh.

[tammywammy]

222. I believe it's murder

because he was killed while committing a felony.

[Jed Dilligan]

233. So his accomplice is guilty of his murder?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[cigsandcoffee]

234. I think the idea is to discourage armed robbery. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

237. I'm not comfortable with that

Eventually, everyone is guilty of everything.

[Edweird]

235. Then armed robbery is not your ideal profession.

[LisaL]

236. Yep, seems kind of dangerous.

[Kingshakabobo]

242. When you conspire to commit felony armed robbery you are responsible .....

.......for ANYONE killed in the commission of the act......whether you are the trigger-man or not. He was as responsible for his partner's death even though, in this case, he wasn't the trigger-man. He would have been responsible for the shop-keepers death too- even if he wasn't the trigger-man. He doesn't get a break just because the "wrong" person was killed.

It's not unreasonable for society to say you will be responsible for ANYONE killed when you start waiving guns around.

This is a valid application of the law. It gets a little iffy when they start charging co-conspirators that stayed home or people killed in freak accidents during non-violent felonies. I've read about over-zealous prosecutors charging co-conspirators killed accidentally.........I'll have to search but I recall a person being charged when his partner fell to his death during a night time burglary of a business.

[ContraBass Black]

243. I think that there ought to be a separate law, specifying the same or similar penalties

Instead of including this in the definition of murder.

[Kingshakabobo]

246. It is murder by a non-triggerman........

Question:

Perpetrator 1 and 2 rob a store. Perpetrator 1 shoots the clerk.

Do you believe perpetrator 2 is guilty of murder?

[Jed Dilligan]

253. I agree with that,

but not if clerk shoots perp 1. Perp 1 is responsible for his own death. Maybe that's not how the law works, but it seems right to me.

[Jed Dilligan]

254. That would be okay, too.

I just don't like the idea of spreading murder charges around.

[mondo joe]

249. I'm uncomfortable with it.

I certainly have no problem with the charge of felony armed robbery.

And I could be fine with charging both for murder if it could be shown that they conspired to kill.

But otherwise, I feel the person who pulls the trigger is the only one who should be charged for the outcome of doing so.

[dogday]

251. You never know what you will do when confronted with that situation

I was robbed at gunpoint at a bank many years ago... If someone were there to help me at that time, I would of been grateful... When someone points a gun at you knowing the consequences of their crime, you never know what they will do...

I did everything he asked, except I pulled the bait and left another strap of bills in my drawer... He was caught 30 minutes later. I had to go to Federal Court to testify, the man got 20 years for pointing a gun at me and robbing the bank.....

I would of welcomed this Marine to come to my rescue, I thought I was going to die.....