Please note: The United States is rated 37th in the world in health care by WHO.

[Lex]

So please--some DU'ers keep repeating the mantra they've been fed about how we have the greatest healthcare in the world here. We don't. Just FYI.


The United States is rated 37th in health care by WHO.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Source: WHO World Health Report

Ranked by 8 measures: http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems

Rank

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

In fairness this is an older survey, but it's probably gotten worse not better for us.

(Thanks to DUer Tierra_y_Libertad for the link.)

[JanMichael]

1. Thank you! I was about to post the same study.

The ignorance about health-care in the USA is astounding even here on DU.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

2. Recommended to help debunk the Propagandist!!! eom

[Lone_Star_Dem]

3. There you go using facts

Not that reality effects most people in the USA anymore, but I do appreciate you trying.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. heh...a caller to Moore last night hit him with this one, braying that CUBA is only 39!

used it to criticize Moore's taking those people there.

Moore replied that Cuba's, a uhhhhhh....third world nation!

and we only 'beat' them by two places. what does that say about us, huh?

thanks for providing the eigth determining factors, btw.

lots of disingenuous posters HERE are using the lifespan stat to make the claim that it doesn't mean anything, cause we're THE BEST in other areas

[sandnsea]

7. It's the best if you're rich

And can afford every test and surgery available. For the other 98%, not so much. I wonder what it would be if we factored the healh of the rich OUT of the equation. Would we still beat Cuba?

[Gabi Hayes]

14. good point. Moore said last night that many of the 'socialized' medicine

countries...read almost every other first world nation.....has a two tiered system, similar, in a way to medicare (with its paid supplemental program), in which the wealthy of other countries can get better care

that said....Morocco?

Cyprus? I thought they spent all their money on that wall

[sandnsea]

18. Good

I'm tired of being called a troll when I say there are other solutions besides 100% government health.

[Gabi Hayes]

26. that's over and above the FREE, comprehensive care that everybody

receives already

just so we're clear

it's always good to be rich

almost

[Rosemary2205]

28. FREE???

I'd think there would at least be some sort of taxation associated with it????

[Lars39]

29. Why not free?

Or at the very least a very small monthly amount. We could easily afford it if it wasn't for the "war on terra".

[sandnsea]

38. A small monthly amount

Yeah, NOT FREE. So stop saying it. A large segment of this country does not believe they should pay so somebody else can get anything completely for free.

[Stargazer99]

42. to those that believe there should be no free healthcare

Every cent of two social security incomes goes to rent, utilities. Now that the landlord has increased the rent by $100 there goes the food budget. So some of you believe it should not be free even to those that need care...my comment is get your head out of where the sun don't shine....I'm glad you can meet your living needs but for a low income worker you really think retirement funds if they even exist will do it? Or is it that some people in the US just simply don't give a damn if their neighbor is suffering? Welfare, yes, god dammit, if the society doesn't reward its workers with adequate living sources we should just die off for your idealogical crap? No, don't answer that you'd probably say yes!

[sandnsea]

43. Social Security is also PAID FOR

And the Medicare people have is PAID FOR. It's all paid for, by WORKING PEOPLE, at some point in their lives. YOU EARNED what you have, stop saying you've gotten it for FREE.

[ProudDad]

62. GAD!!!

WRONG AGAIN!!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/washington/01cnd-poll.html?ex=1330405200&en=45c0a4cf48ed21a1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

"Poll Shows Majority Back Health Care for All
By ROBIN TONER and JANET ELDER
Published: March 1, 2007

A majority of Americans say the federal government should guarantee health insurance to every American, especially children, and are willing to pay higher taxes to do it"

[sandnsea]

36. There is

In every single country.

[sandnsea]

33. Like France

Which I refer to in almost every single post on health care that I make.

[ProudDad]

61. I'll call you a troll

when you suggest that any other nation other than Britain has a 100% government health system system.

I'll call you a troll when you suggest that Michael Moore wants the U.S. to adopt the British 100% government health care system.

Both of those exaggerations are the troll meat you've previously posted on this board.

PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

You can start here:

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

This is the BEST plan currently at all feasible...

It does NOT create a government Health Care Delivery system. It uses the existing, potentially excellent delivery system, doctors, nurses, support staff and offers the market a choice of a system of finance that removes the PROFIT motive with all of it's deadly disincentives to providing care.

STUDY UP!!!! :hi:

[Toots]

5. But WHO does the rating?

Who's on first?

[Gabi Hayes]

6. corrupt COMMUNISTS who want socialize police and fire departments!

and public water systems and

libraries

stuff like that

how DARE they?

[Lex]

8. The World Health Organization used 8 measures.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html

WHO's objective, as set out in its Constitution, is the attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health. The Constitution defines health as a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

The World Health Assembly is the supreme decision-making body for WHO. It meets each year in May in Geneva, and is attended by delegations from all 193 Member States.

The Executive Board is composed of 34 members technically qualified in the field of health. Members are elected for three-year terms. The main Board meeting, at which the agenda for the forthcoming Health Assembly is agreed upon and resolutions are adopted for forwarding to the Health Assembly, is held in January, with a second shorter meeting in May, immediately after the Health Assembly, for more administrative matters.

World Health Organzation ---> http://www.who.int/about/governance/en/index.html

[Gabi Hayes]

10. he might be trying to be amusing, but perhaps he's impugning the credibility of WHO

after all, it is the UN

what do they know?

[Lex]

11. Yes

look how they kept saying there weren't any WMDs in Iraq anymore. So stupid! /sarcasm

[Toots]

19. My God but I must be old

I was trying to do a play on the famous Loral and Hardy joke, "Who's on first" I even used it in my message but no one either is old enough to remember that silly script or else just plain dense people here..

[Lex]

20. I guess I'm too serious about the topic

and didn't think the "Who's on 1st" routine was actually someone trying to be funny.

[Gabi Hayes]

27. I got it! yay for me. I did allow that he might be joking

I was right

I'm number ONE!

where's the anti UN crowd?

amazing how many virulently anti-Moore posters there are at DU, isn't it?

as he's tried to point out, time and again, he did NOT try to make a political issue out of this. I know that it's impossible, but it's interesting to see the nature of most attacks on the movie. almost all of them are support free, or coming from places like the Heritage Foundation, Claremont Institute, or otherwise clearly industry-funded sources, like the hit piece on Moore after Larry King. Good Job, Anderson Cooper. How does a super rich guy like you feel, after presenting crap like that?

sounds a lot like the the anti-Chavez people.

YES! let's get that flameparty started!

[old guy]

30. It was Abbott & Costello.

[Toots]

49. Ooops

My bad :spank:

[old guy]

50. Perhaps you had a "senior moment"

I have them often myself.

[Laurier]

54. What's on second.

And "I don't know"'s on third :D

[Richard Steele]

9. Well, there you go dragging actual FACTS into it.

Typical liberal! :)



Recommended. :thumbsup:

[devilgrrl]

12. Oh, come now. Being 37th really means we're number one?

Kind of like when a girl says "no" but really means "yes."

:sarcasm:

[leftofthedial]

13. US! US! US! WE'RE BETTER THAN SLOVENIA!! WE'RE BETTER THAN SLOVENIA!!

WE'RE BETTER THAN SLOVENIA!!

And don't forget Poland. HE FORGOT POLAND!

[Gabi Hayes]

24. Slovenia is a beautiful country. very cheap...used to be, anyway,

and very friendly to americans

they have one of the coolest cave systems in the world

http://www.park-skocjanske-jame.si/Eng/a-Skocjan%20Caves%20Regional%20Park.htm

http://www.websolutionswa.com/home/TouristCaves/caves.html

20 km train ride!

[TahitiNut]

25. ... and worse than Saudi Arabia (#26).

Wow. :puke:

[leftofthedial]

15. where do we rank in per capita expense?

[Lex]

17. Number 1. We spend the most but get 37th in care in return.

According to the chart I linked with the 8 measures they used.

[leftofthedial]

22. those measures don't paint a pretty picture

do they?


we are being screwed by capitalists (again)

[Rosemary2205]

16. I'd really like to see some internals.

Cancer survival rates, heart attack/stroke survival rates, trauma injury survival rates etc.

I've seen the studies that say our average lifespan and infant mortality rates are falling behind but I am not sure how much of that is a function of our lifestyle and how much is a function of lack of access to medical care. -- I wonder about that because I've also read that countries welcoming more of an American influence and lifestyle are also seeing more heart attacks, obesity, cancer etc.

[yardwork]

58. You can run data queries on the WHO statistical page.

http://www.who.int/whosis/en/index.html

[Eurobabe]

21. Surprised that Germany is so far down the list

I guess if I get sick I should drive to Italy (2 hours) or France (5 hours)??

[bj2110]

23. This list is outdated and vague.

Don't know the ranking methods nor the criteria fo assigning the relative score. And it's from 1997.

[Gabi Hayes]

31. you sure about that?

read the date on the list:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/index.html

''WHO ranking of the world's health systems'' do you just make stuff up?

if you're so concerned about accuracy, why don't you spend some time bringing us recent material?

you've gotten your first concrete accusation dead wrong

nice try, though

[Gabi Hayes]

34. btw, are you implying that Moore is using the same outdated material in his movie?

if so, that should be easy for you to prove, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Oh yeah, we are probably #1 by now!!

:sarcasm:

[Benhurst]

37. Yeah, after more than six years under the Bush Junta, I bet we're #1 by now.

:patriot:

Or at least #36.

The World's Only Superpower: Bombing for a better world.

[Richard Steele]

40. Really?

[Lex]

45. dicksteele:

:thumbsup:

[SoonerPride]

53. Now we're worse than 37. We're more like 60th,

Thanks for the heads up on the old data

[yardwork]

59. How awful! You DON'T KNOW THE RANKING METHODS???

Well, get yourself over to the WHO's statistical analysis page, because we can't have someone feeling LEFT OUT!

http://www.who.int/whosis/en/index.html

[alarimer]

32. To be fair the health CARE is good

if you have money, that is. Why do you think all those rich people from other countries come here to have things done?

Our real problem is the health insurance industry. Health care is rationed according to your socio-economic status and THAT is what is keeping us down in the list. So many people cannot afford the insurance or can't afford the co-payments that they do without care at all.

[midnight]

39. Thanks for letting us know about this old survey, and you are.

probably correct when you say that is is probably gotten worse and not better.

[Lex]

44. Yes I did say

that the data isn't new, but yes, I'd bet plenty that we've dropped in rank since then.

[PDJane]

41. The WHO is revamping the way it applies the standards.

In fairness, Canada is quite near the top in health results, for the most part.

The maternal/infant mortality rate in the US, to be absolutely and scrupulously fair, is at or lower than the average if you are a white woman. If you are Black or hispanic, however, the rate doubles. This is a function of the inequality in allocation of resources.

[lligrd]

46. Yikes, Take A Look At Our Privacy Ranking

http://www.photius.com/rankings/privacy_international.pdf

[datasuspect]

47. yeah, but the WHO is a bunch of libruls!!!!11111

[UrbScotty]

48. Our healthcare is better than Poland's and New Zealand's? (nt)

[bricolage]

51. I thought Cuba's was supposed to better than ours

[Lex]

52. It probably is by now. This info is several years old as I said

in the Opening Post.

I'd bet the US has fallen in rank since Idiot Son has been at the helm.

[BlooInBloo]

56. We spen 10x as much per person. And end up being only marginally better, on average.

[kenny blankenship]

60. I'd be surprised by that, but the fact that they are EVEN CLOSE is an indictment of our "system"

Our system is no system at all--it's more like a black market auction.

C'mon guys, Cuba is dirt fucking poor! We have policies in place--backed with nuclear weapons and trade sanctions-- to make sure that never changes. Cuba would be poor even if we allowed trade with Cuba and IMF development loans, etc.

[ProudDad]

63. Their delivery system

is a VAST improvement over our corporate health care delivery system.

In Cuba they have clinics throughout of the island -- no long trips to overcrowded E.R.s for most health issues.

By contrast, I recently tried to find a doctor for a friend with an acute issue in the S.F. East Bay area (Oakland, Berkeley) who would see someone WITH CASH IN HAND and COULD NOT FIND a one who would see ANY patients who were not covered by one of their "health insurance plans". Not only that, ALL of the doctor's offices were clustered around the few corporate hospital towers.


In Cuba, the doctors and nurses are at least the equal of ours.


The U.S. embargo of Cuba has resulted in a severe shortage of medical supplies and equipment. That's the ONLY reason they don't have better outcomes.

[BlooInBloo]

55. Does anyone have a link to that bang-for-the-buck national healthcare comparison curve?

[RedEarth]

57. Here's a link to another site with numerous articles(& links) dealing with healthcare in the US

http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/pnhp_research_the_case_for_a_national_health_program.php

Over the past two decades, PNHP research has “framed” the debate and focused it on the need for fundamental health care reform. Some of these findings have become so well known that new members of PNHP (and most members of Congress) may not know that we are the source:

Administrative costs consume 31 percent of US health spending, most of it unnecessary.
(Woolhandler, et al “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada,” NEJM 349(8) Sept. 21, 2003)


Half of all bankruptcies are caused by medical bills. Three-fourths of those bankrupted had health insurance at the time they got sick or injured.
(“Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy,” Himmelstein et al, Health Affairs Web Exclusive, February 2, 2005.)


Taxes already pay for more than 60 percent of US health spending

Americans pay the highest health care taxes in the world. We pay for national health insurance, but don’t get it.
(Woolhandler, et al. “Paying for National Health Insurance — And Not Getting It,” Health Affairs 21(4); July / Aug. 2002)


Despite spending far less per capita for health care, Canadians are healthier and have better measures of access to health care than Americans.
(Lasser et al. “Access to Care, Health Status, and Health Disparities in the United States and Canada: Results of a Cross-National Population-Based Survey,” American Journal of Public Health; July 2006, Vol 96, No. 7)


Business pays less than 20 percent of our nation’s health bill. It is a misnomer that our health system is “privately financed” (60 percent is paid by taxes and the remaining 20 percent is out-of-pocket payments).
(Carrasquillo et al. “A Reappraisal of Private Employers’ Role in Providing Health Insurance,” NEJM 340:109-114; January 14, 1999)


For-profit, investor-owned hospitals (link 11, 22, 33, & 44), HMOs5 and nursing homes6 have higher costs and score lower on most measures of quality than their non-profit counterparts.
1. Editorial by David Himmelstein, MD and Steffie Woolhandler, MD in the Canadian Medical Association Journal
2. Devereaux, PJ “Payments at For-Profit and Non-Profit Hospitals,” Can. Med. Assoc. J., Jun 2004; 170
3. Devereaux, PJ “Mortality Rates of For-Profit and Non-Profit Hospitals,” Can. Med. Assoc. J, May 2002; 166
4. Himmelstein, et al “Costs of Care and Admin. At For-Profit and Other Hospitals in the U.S.” NEJM 336, 1997
5. Himmelstein, et al “Quality of Care at Investor-Owned vs. Not-for-Profit HMOs” JAMA 282(2); July 14, 1999
6. Harrington et al, “Himmelstein, et al “Quality of Care at Investor-Owned vs. Not-for-Profit HMOs” JAMA 282(2); July 14, 1999,” American Journal of Public Health; Vol 91, No. 9, September 2001


Immigrants1 and emergency department visits2 by the uninsured are not the cause of high and rising health care costs.
1. Mohanty et al. “Health Care Expenditures of Immigrants in the United States: A Nationally Representative Analysis,” American Journal of Public Health; Vol 95, No. 8, August 2005
2. Tyrance et al. “US Emergency Department Costs: No Emergency,” American Journal of Public Health; Vol 86, No. 11, November 1996


The uninsured do not receive all the medical care they need — they live sicker and die younger. Those most in need of preventive services are least likely to receive them.
(American College of Physicians)


The US could save enough on administrative costs1 (more than $350 billion annually) with a single-payer system2 to cover all of the uninsured.
1. Woolhandler, et al “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada,” NEJM 349(8) Sept. 21, 2003
2. “Proposal of the Physicians’ Working Group for Single-Payer National Health Insurance,” JAMA 290(6): Aug 30, 2003

[Lex]

64. Thanks for the link

and all that information, RedEarth.