Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Hurricane hunter planes or new satellite...why not both? Why the fight over our safety?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:44 PM
Original message
Hurricane hunter planes or new satellite...why not both? Why the fight over our safety?
There are all kinds of accusations flying about Bill Proenza, the hurricane center director. Yet most of it seems to relate to the fact that he has complained about lack of funding for hurricane research at NOAA...and his pointing out that an aging satellite could fail at any time.

What I can't understand is why forecasters at the center are among the ones calling for him to leave, saying he is undermining public confidence.
Why aren't the forecasters speaking out about this instead of asking for him to resign.

I found 3 articles, and I am still not sure of why the anger toward him. Maybe I am missing something. We had 3 hurricane eyes pass nearly on top of us in 2004, and I for one want to be informed.

From one article it appears that a lot of the controversy is swirling about him because forecasters say hurricane hunter planes can do as well as the aging satellite, and that money would be better spent on the planes.

I say, why not both?

Storm Chief Defies Calls to Resign

MIAMI - Embattled hurricane center director Bill Proenza on Friday angrily defied calls from a mutinous staff for his dismissal. At the same time, he said he would discuss "the way forward" with his superiors in Washington.

"I'm not going to resign," he told The Miami Herald. "The staff here doesn't dictate who the leader is. What a dangerous precedent when we allow subordinates to dictate their leadership by signing a petition."

His comments came a day after nearly half of the staff of the National Hurricane Center in West Miami-Dade County joined the revolt against him, issuing a statement calling for his immediate dismissal.

..."They said his public statements about an aging satellite have undermined confidence in their forecasts. Others think that his frequent clashes with superiors in Washington have become a serious distraction as the hurricane season deepens.


And SciGuy blog gives him kudos.

Senior hurricane researcher: You go, Bill Proenza!

Margie Kieper at Weather Underground has been doing a nice job following events, which seem to have turned in Proenza's favor. He's got public support, and the support of some federal legislators from Florida.

..."Yesterday I learned that he also had the support of Hugh Willoughby, who directed NOAA's hurricane research from 1995 to 2002 and has flown a remarkable 400 times into storms. I spoke to Willoughby, now a distinguished professor at Florida International University, for a related story on hurricanes, and asked him about the Proenza imbroglio:

"I'm the founding member of a chapter of the Bill Proenza Fan Club here at FIU," Willoughby said, adding that he left NOAA because of constant budget battles.

Willoughby said NOAA would "be really stupid to fire him," noting that Proenza's reputation is one for looking "after his agency's best interests rather than the interests of his bosses."


And another article which also makes me think I would like to have someone speaking out like this.

He has harmed public confidence in their forecasts, 3 on his staff say

MIAMI — Three senior forecasters at the National Hurricane Center called Tuesday for the ouster of recently appointed director Bill Proenza, saying he has damaged public confidence in their forecasts, fractured morale and lost their support.

"I don't think that Bill can continue here," said James Franklin, one of five senior forecasters at the center.

"I don't think he can be an effective leader."

Two others — Richard Pasch and Rick Knabb — told The Miami Herald that they concur.

"We need a change of leadership here at the hurricane center," Pasch said.

"It's pretty much as simple as that."


And from that same article, I see the words Washington harassment toward the center because of his speaking out.

'Washington harassment'
Some forces expressed support for Proenza, but with pressure intensifying from within and without, Proenza's grip on the $150,000-a-year job he accepted just six months ago seemed increasingly at risk.

He said late Tuesday that he will not resign and blamed the center's morale problems on "Washington harassment," a reference to a letter of reprimand he received last month and the unannounced inspection by five federal officials, including a lawyer who specializes in personnel matters.


Why aren't others concerned that satellite might fail? That seems to be the crux of the problem.

The developments come after months of controversy ignited by Proenza's public attacks on NOAA. He has been particularly critical of the agency's failure to prepare a replacement for a weather satellite that already is beyond its designed life span. The QuikScat satellite measures wind speeds over distant areas of the ocean.

...."Knabb and Mayfield said Proenza has exaggerated the magnitude of the satellite issue, unintentionally leaving the public — and Congress — with the impression that forecasters are not capable of doing their jobs. No one doubts the satellite's importance when it comes to storms far out to sea, but the senior forecasters said its loss would not compromise the accuracy of forecasts of storms that are approaching land — the most important forecasts they issue. Hurricane hunter planes provide much more crucial data about those threats.

In response to Proenza's comments, some members of Congress have suggested transferring funds from hurricane hunter missions to development of a QuikScat replacement. That could lead to disaster, the forecasters said.


Why aren't the forecasters in Miami pushing for every means of surveillance to be available to them instead of pushing for the firing of Proenza?

Why are the forecasters not wanting to speak out about the satellite? In America we used to have both...the planes and the satellites.

I must be dense, because I do not understand.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. The simple question I have is...
Were the staffers' public statements vetted by the White House beforehand? I thought all of their statements had to be - 'reforms' put in by the likes of Tom DeLay to neuter them and aid his AccuWeather allies. Is that not what the top guy is really in trouble for to begin with? Going off the Pravda script?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. private weather satellites
Wasn't Tom Delay involved in some private weather deal? Is that what's going on here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Hey, let's get some K&R's on this please.
I was the 21st to post a reply and the first to K&R. This is important for everyone on all our coasts re hurricane warnings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. THere is some kind of turf war
It seems nooah wants to take in the nhc. I still don't get why not both either.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1261920&mesg_id=1262300
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thanks, I missed that.
Will read it. I can not make sense of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. We don't need no stinkin' satellites!
Just like we don't need no stinkin' health care, or money to send our kids to college, or food for the millions of hungry folks, or any of that other junk because WE NEED ALL OUR MONEY FOR WAR AND MORE WAR!!!!! Endless war, bloody war, pre-emptive wars without end, wars built on lies, wars for corporate profit, wars for oil, wars to end all wars, glorious, flag-waving, star-spangled WARS! And what good is a plane that doesn't have a badass bunker-buster attached to it?? We ain't got no money for wimp-ass things like weather satellites cause Jeezus is coming and we don't have much time left to wipe out all the non-white, non-Christian people before He gets here.

That's why.

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yes, the war spending and ideology isn't helping.
I thought people would realize since Katrina that hurricanes can do big economic damage, geez. And comparatively speaking this stuff is dirt cheap.

Then again, I'm not sure why spending in Iraq has gone up 3 billion a month (~9 to ~12) in just one year either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. There is more to this than meets than has been disclosed.
You don't have half your staff and all your senior forecasters calling for you to resign because you want more funding.

"Evidently, some on the staff think Mr. Proenza grossly exaggerated the importance of a soon-to-die weather-data satellite system called QuikScat as he sought more money for the center in the federal budget, thereby undermining public confidence in its science and perhaps risking cuts to the data-gathering effort the forecasters say is most important, reconnaissance aircraft flights. "

I think there are two things going on: 1) He is misrepresenting the forecasters science and abilities; 2) He is fighting Washington DC. One fight alone would be okay, but both leaves him with no allies anywhere.

Personally, after reading independent forecasters opinions, I think he needs to go. You can't manage a organization that has lost confidence in you.

BTW, I agree the funding should be there for both. He just can't misrepresent the science in order to justify the funding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There must be a lot more....because I think both planes and satellites...
and I think weathercasters should think so as well.

I don't know the guy, have no clue about him. Why not both?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. All I can think is he must be the worst boss in the world
Scientists never fight more funding and the quotes from the forecasters don't argue against funding both. The only complaint is "misrepresenting the science", but is that enough to sign a petition?

You don't alienate half your organization to this degree without some issues going on behind closed doors.

As a Floridian who lives on the water, I want as much funding as possible. I've also been following this closely, and there is more than politics going on here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. This story makes no sense at all as it's being told.
We are missing information here because why would senior scientists be upset at someone who is trying to get them more data?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. He's a Bush appointee, no? Remember, repubes are anti-science
at their core level, so perhaps this guy is pointing out the deficits in a sly way to undermine the credibility, and his co-workers know it.

Perhaps the satellite issue is just the tip of the iceberg..maybe his basic philosophy rubs them all the wrong way.. perhaps he has ties to the company who will build the new satellite..

there is definitely more here than meets the eye.

republicans always undermine from within.. they are infiltrators par excellence, and have a ready stream of lingua-babble that sounds so "normal" and "sensible". They delight in turning reasonable thinking on its head and twisting things to suit their goals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Could be, or it could be that the Bush people are the opnes at lower levels making this guy's life h
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 02:39 PM by hedgehog
We just don't have all the facts here.

Dare I suggest the real problem may be the guy is a Latino? I have no idea if that's the case, but something about this story isn't right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I wonder if any of it connects to privatizing some of the forecast methods.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1349242

Florida State University at Tallahassee has entered the world of private enterprise....and sold one of the best tools the National Hurricane Center has had for forecasting.

I don't see a connection, but I don't see any of it making much sense.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. NOAA has cut funding for hurricane hunter planes....
and the satellite is in trouble that shows them in the open ocean...so I hope to heck someone figures out something soon.

:mad:

http://www.thestormtrack.com/2007/05/noaa_confirms_cut_in_hurricane.php

"Over the past week public comments from the new director of the National Hurricane Center criticizing plans to rename his center and accusing his parent agency of wasting millions of dollars on a public relations campaign while cutting vital research funding, were followed by the unexpected departure of two top weather service officials. Now following these public accusations and earlier reports that the new budget contains no money for research flights, NOAA has confirmed that it is cutting funding to the famous 'Hurricane Hunters' based in Tampa, FL.

From the St. Petersbug Times:


Federal officials plan to significantly reduce the number of "hurricane hunter" flights from Tampa's MacDill Air Force base this year, even though predictions call for a busy hurricane season.

Crews will fly fewer hours because some of their missions can be combined for efficiency, said Philip Kenul of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

For example, some reconnaissance flights in which pilots aim directly into the eye of a storm can be combined with other flights aimed at research purposes. That way, the crews can accomplish two goals with one flight, he said.

Safety will not be compromised, Kenul said.

"We're just trying to be a little bit smarter about the way we spend federal dollars, " he said.

But Kenul's comments came only days after the new director of the National Hurricane Center, Bill Proenza, criticized the NOAA for failing to put enough money into research programs and equipment."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. NOAA (read BUSH) spending $4 million on "bogus" 200 yr. anniversary celebration.
PLEASE keep in mind that the decisions Proenza is fighting come from the very top of NOAA, which is to say from Bush/Cheney's political appointees - and that makes it a dead certainty the aim is long-term privatizing & profiteering.

Part of that, as the article states, is "to publicize NOAA, AND ITS LEADERS (emphasis added). Just like Bush's former campaign manager, Joe Albaugh went in to head FEMA with absolutely ZIP emergency service experience, and left it a year later to start raking in huge bucks as an "expert" consultant in emergency services, the top political hacks/appointees at NOAA are going to glorify themselves for the next 18 months until Bush leaves and they lose their jobs. They've probably already lined up their private jobs at the vice-president level at places like Accu-Weather.

So please do not fall into Bush's hands by trashing the federal agencies and the civil servants. Bush has used his political appointees to cannibalize every federal agency and taken steps to trash their effectiveness and reputation - just to clear the way for private profiteers.
From the link in the preceding post:
"Bill Proenza, who took the hurricane center post in January, said top officials at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration are spending $4 million on a ''bogus'' 200-year NOAA anniversary celebration.

That celebration is part of a broader campaign to publicize NOAA and its leaders, Proenza and other critics said, while diminishing the identity of its best-known components, the National Weather Service and the hurricane center.

Meanwhile, Proenza said, NOAA has cut $700,000 from a crucial hurricane research program and allowed other important initiatives to go unfunded, but it wants to spend money to change the widely recognized center's name to the ``NOAA Hurricane Center.''

In the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, Proenza and former hurricane center director Max Mayfield said, NOAA even ordered them to remove the National Weather Service logo from official tracking maps and retain only the NOAA logo. They refused.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. A major forecasting tool was sold to private enterprise...remember this?
Something is going on here with our weather forecasting. Someone is playing games, I can't figure it out.


Hurricane forecasts losing major tool to private enterprise...scary stuff.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/709

"Florida State University at Tallahassee has entered the world of private enterprise....and sold one of the best tools the National Hurricane Center has had for forecasting."

"LAKELAND -- For the first time this decade, the National Hurricane Center doesn't have one of its best tools in its forecasting toolbox.

Florida State University -- the alma mater of NHC Director Max Mayfield -- will not send data to the NHC from its acclaimed Superensemble computer forecasting model this season because it sold the commercial rights to its patented technology to a North Carolina company called Weather Predict."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. and it was developed with tax payer dollars too.
I never understood how a publicly funded project at a public university could be sold to private company. Blows me away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. This should be investigated...more on the sale of FSU publicly developed
weather prediction to a private company.

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/EDITORIALS/206290330/1096/editorials&template=printart

"The secrecy surrounding FSU's business deal with Weather Predict, coupled with the company's relationship with FSU's meteorology department, should give Gov. Jeb Bush and the Florida Board of Governors, which oversees the state universities, enough concern to start asking questions.

Does FSU have the authority to license technology on its own? Were other companies given a chance to make proposals?

With publicity building, the National Weather Service announced that Weather Predict and FSU had reached an agreement with the NOAA to provide forecasts to the National Hurricane Center at no charge.

That's the end of the conflict, at least for this hurricane season. But somehow FSU and Weather Predict came to be in the eye of this storm. The governor, Legislature and the Board of Governors should start tracking their paths."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Weather Predict is the name.. the website is very "nothing"
REEKS of republi-speak.. lots of words..saying nothing.. only one click-link to management.. I bet some research willturn up lots of "oddities"..

.........................................................
Accurate Forecasts For Business
http://www.weatherpredict.com/index.html
Weather Predict (WP) provides weather forecasts with industry-leading accuracy. Our value proposition is to provide customized weather solutions that allow our clients to make improved business decisions. WP distinguishes itself by offering:

* Patented Super Ensemble™* weather forecasting technology.
* A highly-experienced team with a breadth of credentials.
* Customized solutions that provide our clients and partners with specific competitive advantages.

Our services benefit those in the energy, financial, and agribusiness sectors, including energy and agricultural commodity traders.

To determine how WP can best provide a solution for you, please contact:
Joel Sivillo
919.876.3633
3200 Atlantic Avenue, Suite 114
Raleigh, NC 27604

*Super Ensemble™ is patented forecast technology of Florida State University used under exclusive license by Weather Predict.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Craig Tillman (the main guy) cam from Florida Re-insurnace business apparently
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 05:58 PM by SoCalDem
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/nca/seminars/flyers/20040225-Tillman.pdf

http://www.ibhs.org/about/board_of_directors.asp

Proenza's connection to Jebbie

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Proenza+jeb+bush&btnG=Google+Search

from whois

WHOIS Search Results


WHOIS Record For
weatherpredict.com


Visit AboutUs.org for more information about WEATHERPREDICT.COM AboutUs: WEATHERPREDICT.COM

Registrant: Make this info private
Khadilkar, Jayant
4937 Cremshaw Court
Raleigh, NC 27614
US

Domain Name: WEATHERPREDICT.COM

Administrative Contact , Technical Contact :
Vandersip, Christopher
cv@weatherpredict.com
3200 Atlantic Ave.
Suite 114
Raleigh, NC 27604
US
Phone: 919-876-3633

Record expires on 22-Dec-2009
Record created on 22-Dec-1999
Database last updated on 23-Oct-2006

Domain servers in listed order: Manage DNS

DNS1.WEATHERPREDICT.COM 70.43.107.66
DNS2.WEATHERPREDICT.COM 24.172.58.106

Show underlying registry data for this record


Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 70.43.107.71 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)
Record Type: Domain Name
Server Type: Apache 2
Lock Status: clientTransferProhibited
Web Site Status: Active
DMOZ no listings
Y! Directory: see listings
Secure: No
E-commerce: No
Traffic Ranking: Not available
Data as of: 29-Jan-2007
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. They got one of the best systems developed with taxpayer money.
Why isn't everyone yelling?

Oh, I forgot...there are so many things to yell about we forget all of the but the latest.

From They Thought They were Free:

"What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by
little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in
secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government
had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so
dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it could not be released
because of national security.

The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so
occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the
whole process of government growing remoter and remoter. To live in the
process is absolutely not to notice it - please try to believe me - unless
one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of
us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential,
so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted.' Believe me this is true.
Each act, each occasion is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You
wait for the next and the next. You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking
that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.
Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have
done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was
required of most of us: that we did nothing) . . . You remember everything

now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair." ~

A German professor describing the events and times in Germany in They
Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Corporate welfare - and Rick Santorum is at the heart of it.
He's busy lobbying for his good friends at Accu-Weather.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. there should be no hesitation on getting whatever is needed


they sure don't hesitate to buy expensive military stuff

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC