Genocide by design?

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/

Is the United States Killing 10,000 Iraqis Every Month? Or Is It More?

By Michael Schwartz
<http://www.afterdowningstreet.org>.
Posted July 6, 2007

300 Iraqis killed by Americans each day sounds like an impossible figure, but a close look at the reported numbers of violent deaths and rate of armed patrols makes it all too likely.

A state-of-the-art research study published in October 12, 2006 issue of The Lancet (the most prestigious British medical journal) concluded that -- as of a year ago -- 600,000 Iraqis had died violently due to the war in Iraq. That is, the Iraqi death rate for the first 39 months of the war was just about 15,000 per month.

That wasn't the worst of it, because the death rate was increasing precipitously, and during the first half of 2006 the monthly rate was approximately 30,000 per month, a rate that no doubt has increased further during the ferocious fighting associated with the current American surge.

The U.S. and British governments quickly dismissed these results as "methodologically flawed," even though the researchers used standard procedures for measuring mortality in war and disaster zones. (They visited a random set of homes and asked the residents if anyone in their household had died in the last few years, recording the details, and inspecting death certificates in the vast majority of cases.) The two belligerent governments offered no concrete reasons for rejecting the study's findings, and they ignored the fact that they had sponsored identical studies (conducted by some of the same researchers) in other disaster areas, including Darfur and Kosovo. The reasons for this rejection were, however, clear enough: the results were simply too devastating for the culpable governments to acknowledge. (Secretly the British government later admitted that it was "a tried and tested way to measuring mortality in conflict zones"; but it has never publicly admitted its validity).

Reputable researchers have accepted the Lancet study's results as valid with virtually no dissent. Juan Cole, the most visible American Middle East scholar, summarized it in a particularly vivid comment: "the US misadventure in Iraq is responsible for setting off the killing of twice as many civilians as Saddam managed to polish off in 25 years."

[whistle]

1. At least 675,000 Iraqis have been killed since Bush began the invasion

....in March 2003 and continued the occupation. That would average 14,063 Iraqis killed per month during the 48 months of fighting through the beginning of March 2007.

When Bush ordered the surge to begin four months ago the rate of killing Iraqis has certainly accelerated. So I agree with your projections as tragic as these numbers may be.

Bush's war has become a war of genocide against the Iraqi people.

[seemslikeadream]

2. Silent Warrior

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R9ulGK5nU8



Silent Warrior


Long ago, for many years
White men came in the name of god
They took their land, they took their lives
A new age has just begun

They lost their gods, they lost their smile
They cried for help for the last time.
Liberty was turning into chains
But all the white men said
Thats the cross of changes

In the name of God - the fight for gold
These were the changes.
Tell me - is it right - in the name of god
These kind of changes ?

They tried to fight for liberty
Without a chance in hell, they gave up.
White men won in the name of god
With the cross as alibi

Theres no God who ever tried
To change the world in this way.
For the ones who abuse his name
Therell be no chance to escape
On judgement day

In the name of God - the fight for gold
These were the changes.
Tell me - is it right - in the name of god
These kind of changes ?

Tell me why, tell me why, tell why
The white men said:
Thats the cross of changes ?

Tell me why, tell me why, tell why,
In the name of god
These kind of changes

[shadowknows69]

3. I've said this all along

The plan for the resource wars is to create enough unrest, whether by us, designed by us, or existing tensions that we don't lift a financial finger to repair, so that the population of the middle east is eventually killed down to a more manageable number. This above all else needs to be addressed by our country now! Are we going to continue to sell our national soul through murder and complacency to murder for the "greater good" of our "American way of life". I need our country to decide this because I have to leave if my way of life is going to continue to be bought with innocent blood.

[shadowknows69]

4. Think of our "accomplishments" already

675k Iraqis dead. Another 2 million or more displaced and refugees in countries not their own. Countless rounds of depleted uranium to posion the land for generations to come. If the Iran fuse is ever actually lit, a million middle easterners will die within the first month. You hear this grim prediction here first. Hope I'm wrong.
S

[Karenina]

92. DEPOPULATION BY DESIGN

Otherwise known as

G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E.

[seemslikeadream]

95. Otherwise known as

G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E

[shadowknows69]

5. keeping at the top

Seemslikeadream has given us something we all really need to consider and ask of ourselves.

[shadowknows69]

6. Frightening topic eh Dream?

Guess it tramples on everyone's "Live Earth" high. Got news for you guys. This cabal isn't going to take the green route and despite Gore's optimism we do need help from the "big guys". We need to dismantled this evil corporate monster that simply eats everything now leaving nothing for even THEIR OWN CHILDREN'S FUTURES. Which is the one point I can never get past, that greed is that encompassing as to destroy your own progeny.

[seemslikeadream]

11. Into Dust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHfVNH1FaT4&eurl=



Still falling
Breathless and on again
Inside today
Beside me today
Around broken in two
till you eyes shed
Into dust
Like two strangers
Turning into dust
till my hand shook with the way I fear

I could possibly be fading
Or have something more to gain
I could feel myself growing colder
I could feel myself under your fate
Under your fate

It was you breathless and tall
I could feel my eyes turning into dust
And two strangers turning into dust
Turning into dust

[malaise]

7. I only hope I live long enough to see these war criminals

pay for this genocide.
K & R

[The Magistrate]

8. The Problem With This Line, Ma'am

Is that the greatest proportion of the killing is done not by the occupation forces, but by various Iraqi factions, quite independently of the occupiers or their policies. If there is actually genocide, it is being attempted by Iraqis against other Iraqis.

[shadowknows69]

10. I wish I could be absolutely sure of that Magistrate

But I put nothing past the propaganda machine they have built. It is formidable. I don't have immediate links but there have been a number of stories from Al-Jazerra and the like claiming our forces doing much more damage than we'll ever admit to. Think of the two british soldiers apparently arrested for rigging car bombs and then the british army busting them out of jail? Black is white my friend and we've been living on the other side of the looking glass for some time now.

[The Magistrate]

14. Events On This Scale, Sir

Are quite beyond the capabilities of covert action by foreign interlopers. They occur only where there is real mass support for the gun-men of various stripes. One or two incidents, most of them quite distorted in their retelling, mean nothing in comparison to eruption underway. The Englishmen, for example, were not arrested for 'rigging car bombs': they were involved in survelliance of militia elements within the local Iraqi police, who naturally took an opportunity to use their badges to rid themselves of the scrutiny. It is certainly a hole-and-corner business, but not the 'hidden hand' sort of thing some seem to enjoy imagining to be in operation.

"The problem with employing double agents is the difficulty in calculating where the balance of treachery will come to rest."

[seemslikeadream]

12. and WHO precipitated that Sir?

may I beg to ask of you

[leftchick]

15. madame

silly sir seems to forget that there were no car bombs in Iraq before the US arrived. ZERO. Much like there was no smallpox in North America before the arrival of the white man.

[seemslikeadream]

19. Was there Al Qaeda, madame?

Depleted Uranium?

[leftchick]

21. dysentery, cholera and untreated illness?

4 million refugees?

[seemslikeadream]

23. 4 million refugees?

[Minstrel Boy]

144. No

The one thing I agreed with was this: there are terrorists in Iraq. It’s true. Ever since the occupation, they’ve been here by the hundreds and thousands. They are seeping in from neighboring countries through the borders the ‘Coalition of the Willing’ could not protect and would not let the Iraqi army protect. Some of them are even a part of the Governing Council now. Al-Daawa Party is responsible for some of the most terrible bombings in Iraq and other countries in the region.

Yes. I blame America for that. We never had Al-Qaeda or even links to Al-Qaeda. Ansar Al-Islam are supposed to be linked to Al-Qaeda, but they were functioning in the northern territory with the two Kurdish leaders’ knowledge and blessings.

Riverbend, Sept 9, 2003

[The Magistrate]

18. That Is Not the Point, Ma'am

Obviously, the destruction of the Hussein regime removed the totalitarian cap-stone that held the simmering sectarian and ethnic violence in the country substantially in check.

But that is very different from legal, or even practical responsibility, for the actions that have ensued. The gun-men have their own moral agency, and are responsible for their own actions.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Who removed Saddam from power Sir?

[seemslikeadream]

22. Is the Bush Administration and all that voted for WAR

not responsible for the consequences of that war? That's why people should think ahead, Sir, before starting a war, the consequences Sir.

[The Magistrate]

27. Not, Ma'am, In the Sense You Seem To Be Stating

Your drift here seems to be that the United States is committing genocide in Iraq. It is not. A number of Iraqi factions are taking advantage of conditions following the defeat of Hussein to kill on their own, in furtherance of their own goals, and the people doing that are responsible for what they are doing: no one else is. Even if the opportunity they are grasping was created by another, they are still responsible for the grasp they have taken of it.

That civil war was a reasonable expectation following the destruction of the Hussein regime is certainly true, and many, myself included, pointed this out in the run-up to the invasion, as one of many reasons it was a disasterous course for our nation to embark on. Our country is, and unfortunately remains, in the hands of people who operate under a degree of delusion about the utility of force, and who are prone to commit the always disasterous error of believing their own propagandas.

[seemslikeadream]

36. The United States is RESPONSIBLE for the genocide in Iraq

we created the conditions for it to happen

[The Magistrate]

39. Not In Any Sense A Court Would Recognize, Ma'am

And not, really, in any moral sense that accords full moral agency to the men who have taken up the gun themselves in that country.

[seemslikeadream]

42. Yes by all means let's clear our conscience by leaving it to the courts, Sir

[The Magistrate]

46. Not Much Of A Consideration With Me, Ma'am

And never when the actions involved were committed by persons other than myself....

[seemslikeadream]

54. Now it seems to me I've heard something that before, somewhere

[The Magistrate]

57. Are You Seriously Calling Me A Nazi, Ma'am?

Do you honestly think that constitutes any useful element of argument?

It seems to me more a confession of bankruptcy, and inability to sustain the point you are trying to press.

"I'm going home now. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

[seemslikeadream]

58. Oh no not at all, Sir you definitely misunderstood what I was saying

It was those innocent German people you seem to be channeling

[Usrename]

102. Hell no! You are no Nazi.

The damn Nazi's were not informed by the Nuremberg Trials because they were to come later.

You are different beast entirely. At least they could plead ignorance.

[The Magistrate]

112. Indeed, Sir, Quite A Different Beast From A Nazi....

[seemslikeadream]

115. Indeed

[seemslikeadream]

38. Just who is RESPONSIBLE for the soldiers coming home from Iraq, Sir?

and this Sir?

[seemslikeadream]

26. We have taken such good care of the Hmong haven't we, Sir?

oh but that is so yesterdays' WAR

[The Magistrate]

30. Empires Are Seldom Kind To Their Tools, Ma'am

And yet they can always find new ones, it seems. People do not seem learn certain things....

[shadowknows69]

31. Speaking of Empires

If history teaches anything at all
Inevitably our empires must fall

Corrupting absolutely those that rule
Trusting masses made the fool

Sell our souls for our way of life
For the world at large only mayhem and strife.

Resist and we'll make you pay.
Everything you have is ours to take away.

But the reckoning inevitably comes
For the nation that lives only by its swords and guns

The bully of the block is always put down
Proven to be the coward, the monster or the clown.

So such is our fate for lessons unlearned.
This Empire must fall and crumble and burn.

To end all the hopes and oaths that we've sworn
Or a cleansing fire in which we may be reborn.
S

[seemslikeadream]

33. Oh it's a matter of kindness for you

and since we do not learn certain things then GENOCIDE is OK because we are ignorant

[seemslikeadream]

29. You remember the Hmong, don't you Sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUQI1yTPeI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcxo8BwwURU&mode=related&search=

http://us10.pixagogo.com/S5zbTG1dgOCeCFGwDXVKYFnjhE!E5NzwRoQ8gZfrYlB0Hc7R4X90AuvOo6OxIW5HkHCnv5SP8xv1QxbCO65VUtM3GK!odnswADJl00ZzRA2vFE0biNImXgBQ__/Little_Admiral.jpg


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1947980&mesg_id=1948306





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxfhfHCzb8&mode=related&search=

"HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS" Hmong Hunted and tortured -merciless!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmSWXk1nFRc&mode=related&search=

[seemslikeadream]

13. When did all this Iraqis killing Iraqis begin, Sir?

[leftchick]

17. and why does The Lancet include them

in their study?

[The Magistrate]

24. The Lancet Study, Ma'am

Attempts to measure all 'excess death' in the wake of the invasion of Iraq, from whatever cause; in other words, to put a number to the quantity of people who would probably still be alive if the invasion had not taken place. It includes people killed in the military actions of the invasion, by occupation forces, by native religious and political gunmen, by criminals, people dead of diseases and even malnutrition in its totals. That is quite proper in an epidemical study, and they do try and sort out the categories within the totals. But to some degree, these 'sub-totals' are necessarily less accurate, both because they are smaller samples in each case, and because they are not always able to investigate the accuracy of the cause of death reported to them

[leftchick]

28. Have you read the Report?

I didn't think so...

http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=424

Detailed Summary
Background

In March, 2003, military forces, mainly from the USA and the UK, invaded Iraq. We did a survey to compare mortality during the period of 14.6 months before the invasion with the 17.8 months after it.
Methods

A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004. 33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002. In those households reporting deaths, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. We assessed the relative risk of death associated with the 2003 invasion and occupation by comparing mortality in the 17.8 months after the invasion with the 14.6-month period preceding it.
Findings

The risk of death was estimated to be 2.5-fold (95% CI 1.6-4.2) higher after the invasion when compared with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1.5-fold (1.1-2.3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that 98000 more deaths than expected (8000-194000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the outlier Falluja cluster is included. The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8.1-419) than in the period before the war.
Interpretation

MAKING CONSERVATIVE ASSUMPTIONS, we think that about 100000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths. We have shown that collection of public-health information is possible even during periods of extreme violence. Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes.

[The Magistrate]

37. On Several Occassions, Ma'am

The excerpt you have provided here confines data to the period ending in the summer of '04, or roughly the start of the wide-spread sectarian and ethnic killings that dominate the scene today, and have for the last several years.

[leftchick]

43. here is the pdf of the 2006 report, the Majority of deaths due to VIOLENCE

http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf

In nearly 92% of cases family members produced death certificates to support their answers. The survey estimated that 601,000 deaths were the result of violence, mostly gunfire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6495753.stm

[malaise]

34. How do you know who is responsible for all those

IEDs and these killings. I remember seeing two British military men caught dressed up as Arabs. I have also read more than a few credible articles showing MOSAD's involvement in Iraq. I also know that Sunnis, Shias and Kurds weren't killing one another before this illegal invasion began.

[leftchick]

47. gunfire, whose guns?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6495753.stm

The researchers spoke to nearly 1,850 families, comprising more than 12,800 people.

In nearly 92% of cases family members produced death certificates to support their answers. The survey estimated that 601,000 deaths were the result of violence, mostly gunfire.

[The Magistrate]

50. Iraq Is A Very Well Armed Society, Ma'am

The N.R.A. can only dream of a populace so well strapped....

[malaise]

53. Well as we ask where I am

Who makes these guns and gets them to our countries and always manage to share them out to groups who don't really like one another other?

[seemslikeadream]

25. Silly girl

There's probably only 3 million :eyes:

[malaise]

45. Wish I could LOL this one out

but this really depresses me.

[The Magistrate]

48. It Is Certainly A Depressing Situation, Ma'am

And it is not going to get better anytime soon, either.

U.S. withdrawl, when it comes, and it cannot come too soon for my taste, will probably serve only to accellerate the pace of killing in Iraq. This is going to go down in history as one of the most foolish actions a great power has ever committed.

[seemslikeadream]

51. Foolish actions

How generous of you

[The Magistrate]

55. Foolish Is Pretty Harsh For Me, Ma'am

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."

[seemslikeadream]

56. So you are saying the Iraq war was just stupid, Sir?

[The Magistrate]

61. It Was Several Things, Ma'am

Most importantly, it was done largely to distort the political life of our own country, with an eye to 'cooking' the '02 and '04 elections, by making it easy to slur any criticism of the regime as un-patriotic. The hope was that a generational re-alignement of our politics could be contrived by this device that would maintain Republican one-party rule for a generation.

It was because of this most important domestic motive that very little real thought was given to what was actually being done, and what its likely difficulties and consequences would be. Most fortunately, in the event, no consideration at all was given to the possibility of failure, and its consequences. the people involved simply took it for granted everything would work out as smoothly as in a Tom Clancy novel or a Die Hard movie.

Success, however, was the key ingredient in the political re-alignement hopes of Rove and his employers. The failure that has clearly resulted instead seems likely to achieve a generational re-alignement, in the opposite direction than the one intended. The Republican party has thrown away one of its chief electoral assets, namely a reputation among the people for greater competence in questions of national security and military affairs than the Democrats posses. It has been one of their major selling points and electoral edges since the days of Reagan, and they will not get it back, probably not ever.

[malaise]

69. I prefer to call it what it really is

an illegal invasion and occupation - i.e. a war crime - genocide.

[leftchick]

63. how do you know it will accellerate the pace?

All of the war people said the same thing about Vietnam. The only ones claiming chaos if we leave are the RWers and neocons, oh and a few Dems. No one knows what will happen. One thing is certain, the US staying is fomenting the violence and TERRIBLE for Iraqis.

[The Magistrate]

64. Are You Accusing Me Of Opposing U.S. Withdrawl, Ma'am?

That is my assessment of the situation. At present, large elements among the Shia regard the U.S. as doing their work for them against the Sunni, and when we are gone, they will do it themselves. When we are gone the Kurds will move to much more direct and violent action against Arabs in the north, particularly in Mosul, which they intend to reclaim, and against other minorities in their region. The collaborationist Sunni elements, such as the Anwar Salvation people, will turn their arms and training to defense of their people from Shia militias. All of this is predicable as the result of stepping off a high ledge.

Your reading of Viet Nam is simply in error: what was predicted was not an increase in violence but in political repression, and the re-education camps opened on schedule. The 'neutralist' Bhuddist elements were liquidated as a political force, persons of Chinese descent driven from the country. What occured in Cambodia is too well known to need repeating, particularly when 'genocide' is being bandied loosely about.

[leftchick]

66. perhaps we should listen to historians

rather than making it up. And no I accused you of no such thing...


http://hnn.us/articles/23641.html

Iraq, Vietnam, and the Bloodbath Theory
By Scott Laderman

Mr. Laderman is Assistant Professor of History, University of Minnesota, Duluth.

By now we have all seen the analogies drawn between the present war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam decades ago. Some of these analogies have been insightful. Some, to put it charitably, have not. Nearly all, however, have focused on how the United States entered and fought both wars. Little attention has been heeded to what the Vietnam war might tell us about the United States getting out of this one. It is an issue that deserves our attention.

More than thirty-five years ago, as American civilian and military opposition to the Vietnam war increased, those advocating continued warfare found themselves in something of a bind. The applicability of the domino theory to Vietnam had been persuasively challenged. The idea that America was fighting for democracy in Vietnam appeared to many observers, given the despotic nature of the successive Saigon regimes, risible. Yet despite the gap between the government’s rhetoric and observable reality, a minority of Americans clung to the idea of the war as a righteous and necessary cause. What little credibility the public explanations for American intervention enjoyed, however, was largely demolished when, in 1971, the top secret Defense Department history of American policymaking in Vietnam, the Pentagon Papers, was leaked to the press by Daniel Ellsberg and published in a number of outlets. It is no wonder, given the extent to which the government’s own analysts put the lie to what American officials had been telling the public for years, that the Nixon administration reacted so hysterically to this turn of events. It is hardly an exaggeration to say that, for much of the American public, the Pentagon Papers shattered what remained of their will to continue the fight in Southeast Asia. American policymakers determined to perpetuate the war were therefore confronted with a crisis.

Today, I would argue, American officials find themselves in a somewhat comparable position. Their public explanations for the Iraq invasion have nearly all been discredited. Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Evidence of the Bush administration’s deception on this issue is voluminous.1 Iraq’s support for al Qaeda? Dick Cheney’s stubborn insistence notwithstanding, no such relationship existed.2 Freedom for the Iraqi people? As is clear from an examination of the factual record, the Bush administration opposed the 2005 election it now touts as perhaps its greatest democratic achievement.3

The Bush administration currently offers two serious public justifications for continuing the war in Iraq. Both have antecedents, though imprecise, in the Vietnam war. The first is the fight against anti-American terrorism. The second, which is my focus in this essay, is what is described as an effort to prevent full-fledged civil war and the chaos and Iraqi bloodshed this would produce. For this the Vietnam war offers possible lessons.

[The Magistrate]

74. Having Lived Myself Through the Period, Ma'am

As well as the intervening years, you may forgive me not caring in the slightest what an academic with an axe to grind has to say on it nowadays....

[leftchick]

77. lol!

very insightful.

[seemslikeadream]

16. Calling things by their right names

When asked why calling things by their right names was so important to good governance, the Master replied: "What a boor you are! When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."



I could not agree more, Sir, GENOCIDE

[leftchick]

9. I have no doubt it is more than a million dead Iraqis by now

This will be the US's worst genocide since the war against Native Americans.

[leftchick]

32. Iraqi Deaths 969,038

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

[malaise]

35. Like you I know it's closer to a million by now

Sp.

[leftchick]

40. think about 200 killed this weekend

200 Iraqis killed in 48 hours! And those are only the ones reported! It could be ten times that and we would not now. So, like Vietnam it will be years before the true horror in known. :(

[The Magistrate]

44. Killed By Iraqis, Ma'am, Damned Near All Of Them

The largest strike was against a community of Shi'ite Turkmen: that is a group so unpopular the list of suspects for the authors of the blast defies rapid summary....

[leftchick]

49. who the heck knows who killed them?

Could have been one of the US death squads for all I know. WTF difference does it make? Dead is dead and they would not be dead if the neocons hadn't gotten their occupation.

[The Magistrate]

52. There Is No Evidence To Back That Concern, Ma'am

There is abundant evidence, commencing with a study of the history of the place, for the proposition its various peoples are engaged in the opening stages of a very brutal civil war.

[leftchick]

62. so you do not blame the US for opening Pandora's Box?

how, uh, quaint. :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

65. Not To A Degree, Ma'am

Sufficient to obscure the responsibility of the sectarian and ethnic killers for their own actions.

"I say unto you, each man shall die of his own sin, and of no other's."

[leftchick]

67. I am glad the Lancet Study authors don't think like that

It is Genocide, committed by the USA, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.

[divinecommands]

71. The Lancet isn't in the business of ascribing moral responsibility..

The people who are usually distinguish between causal and moral responsibility. I can be causally responsible for bringing about a state of affairs without being responsible for all of its consequences.

[leftchick]

72. like leaving a loaded hand gun in a house full of children

left unattended. Right....:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

75. That Would Seem To Indicate, Ma'am, You Consider The People Of Iraq Childrten

Do you not consider Iraqis fully developed human beings, capable as anyone else of moral agency in regard to their own actions?

[leftchick]

76. good lord

yes, that is what I meant. :sarcasm:

How obtuse can one be??

:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

79. You Chose The Metaphor, Ma'am

The question is, and quite legitimately so, why you thought it an apt one.

[leftchick]

80. the question is

why you are not laying the blame where it rightly lies? I wonder why you give the US government such a pass and lay so much blame on a country under economic siege for 11 years, bombed, shock and awed, occupied, denigrated, tortured and devastated.

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

81. It Is, And Will Remain, Ma'am, My Practice

To consider people responsible for what they themselves choose to do, particularly when what they choose to do is blast, burn, shoot and torture other human beings. Why you should experience any difficulty with this is quite beyond me.

The United States is responsible for what our people have done: we are responsible for a good deal of avoidable killing by our troops, and for routine torture of prisoners in our custody there.

The Iraqi militia gun-men and demolition types are responsible for what they do: a good deal of deliberate killing of non-combatants, and torture and murder of prisoners in their custody.

[leftchick]

82. ah thanks, that is perfectly clear..

like pea soup.

[The Magistrate]

85. Do You Put Carrots In Pea Soup, Ma'am?

Wife usually does, and it adds a nice touch. One of my favorite meals on a cool night....

[leftchick]

90. cute

.

[The Magistrate]

104. Cuddly, Too, Ma'am, But That Is Neither Here Nor There

A bit of bacon, or salt pork, varies the standard ham quite nicely.

[seemslikeadream]

105. Who is responsible for the two million Iraqi refugees, Sir?

never mind the bacon and the triviality, Sir

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/opinion/08sun1.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&hp
The Human Crisis

There are already nearly two million Iraqi refugees, mostly in Syria and Jordan, and nearly two million more Iraqis who have been displaced within their country. Without the active cooperation of all six countries bordering Iraq — Turkey, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria — and the help of other nations, this disaster could get worse. Beyond the suffering, massive flows of refugees — some with ethnic and political resentments — could spread Iraq’s conflict far beyond Iraq’s borders.

[The Magistrate]

114. There Seems To Be A Civil War Going On In The Place, Ma'am

As is always the case in conflict, a number of people seek safety. People on the minority end in mixed neighborhoods particularly are being systematically driven out by militia warnings and exemplary murders. There is a good deal of ethnic cleansing going on.

[seemslikeadream]

118. My now how did that civil war start?

[The Magistrate]

120. It Started, Ma'am

Because people saw an opportunity to indulge long-standing grudges a totalitarian government had previously prevented them from indulging. Those who acted in this manner bear the responsibility for their own actions.

[seemslikeadream]

121. and that opportunitiy

was given to them by WHO?

[The Magistrate]

126. Quite Immaterial, Ma'am

Wholly beside the point of what actions they chose, and choose, to undertake. You might as well argue that because someone leaves the keys in the ignition of an automobile in a parking lot, a person who steps into it and drives it away commits no crime. That crime might have occured had the person who parked it took the keys, but the taking advantage of that careless remains a crime for which the person who took the automobile is solely responsible. People are responsible for their own actions, and cannot escape from that responsibility.

[divinecommands]

84. No one taking responsibility away from the United States..

... for "shock & awe" or for the occupation.

But when one Iraqi kills another, or many others, isn't it only right that he should bear some responsibility for his action?

[leftchick]

97. wow!

are you and M tag teaming?

[malaise]

142. Simple answer

Yes :D

[seemslikeadream]

99. OCCUPATION

Do you even realize what you've just posted?

[divinecommands]

106. Are Iraqis like children to you because they are brown or because they are Muslim?

[seemslikeadream]

107. You have no idea what you're talking about

do you?

[divinecommands]

109. I am perfectly aware of the ideas I am articulating

And their basis in a morality that recognizes equal moral agency for Americas and Iraqis.

[seemslikeadream]

111. Who invaded who sir?

[divinecommands]

123. An American-led coalition invaded Iraq

But that doesn't make the United States morally responsible for the actions of every Iraqi since then.

[seemslikeadream]

125. Sure whatever honey

[leftchick]

145. spoken

like a pro-imperialist. :eyes:

[divinecommands]

146. Moral responsibility and white man's burden

My position is this: the fact that the United States invaded Iraq does not make the United States morally responsible for all actions of Iraqis since then.

You disagree with this? You think the United States is responsible for every action of every Iraqi since the start of the occupation? Every single action? Because, logically, that's what denying my position implies (just take the "not" out of the statement above to see this.)

I do not think my very modest position makes me an imperialist. Quite the opposite: assigning total responsibility to the western invaders is a form of "white man's burden." It suggests Iraqis aren't capable of taking moral responsibility for at least some of their actions.

Do you know what to call an entity incapable of being assigned moral responsibility for its actions? We usually call them animals, children, or the insane. I do not think the majority of Iraqis fall into those categories.

Do you?

[seemslikeadream]

147. What about the innocent Iraqi children?

That have not yet been born? The ones who will suffer from the


DEPLETED URANIUM WE COVERED IRAQ WITH

[The Magistrate]

73. It Is Probably Not Genocide, Ma'am, And Certainly Not Genocide Committed By The United States

Genocide is not just a word to sling about in debate: it is a pretty well defined legal concept, with not only statutory definition but by now a body of precendential interpretation by international tribunals, most noteably that convened for crimes in the late Balkan War.

The crime of genocide requires proof of the intention to kill off a national, religious, or ethnic group. Merely killing a large number of people in pursuit of some other objective does not qualify. Nor does a even a pattern of atrocious killing suffice to demonstrate the intent is extermination. Where convictions for genocide have been entered, proof of the intent to exterminate on the part of the killers has been required, and present. Further, for a leader or a state to be judged guilty of genocide, the killers must be proved to be his or that state's agents, under his or that state's control and direction in their activities. No one seriously alleges that the various militias engaged in the killing, that does in cases have an exterminationist aura, in Iraq today, are in such a relation to the United States. Some do have some relation to the Iraqi government presently in place, but even that is far from enough to prove the necessary element of agency, even for that government, though perhaps not for one or more of its ministers. The killers are independent irregular actors, acting on their own and in pursuit of their own goals.

Most of the killing presently occuring in the Iraqi civil war falls most comfortably under the rubric of ethnic cleansing. It is aimed at driving out minority populations in neighborhoods and regions by terrorizing them with 'examples' of atrocity. A goodly portion of it, too, is revenge killing: when a number of persons from one camp are killed, persons of the camp believed to have 'done it' are killed in retaliation. In some instances, the killers actually make some attempt to target, at least, active adherents of an opposing militia in selecting their victims. There are certainly radicals in all camps there who have an exterminationist agenda beyond this sort of thing: there are definitely Shia radicals who wish to exterminate Sunni Arabs in Iraq, and salafist jihadis who wish the extermination of the Shia heresy, for example. It is hard to say how much of the killing proceeds from such motivations, and unlikely that they are predominant in the violence.

[leftchick]

78. Certainly Not!

certainly! Saying it enough times does not make it so.

[seemslikeadream]

89. John Edwards used the word

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13433/

Thank you very much for coming to the Council. You’ve laid out a fairly detailed timetable for how you’d like to see the drawdown take place in Iraq and the eventual withdrawal. There’s some skepticism about the ability of the United States to affect things in Iraq once we do withdraw, and the possibility of a genocide is something you’ve made reference to. So, how does that change your figuring on what the United States would have to do if you did get out and then this happened?

First of all, the long-term stability and chance for success in Iraq is dependent on the Iraqi leadership itself. My view is that until and when we shift the responsibility for Iraq to the Sunni and Shia leadership, it's unlikely based on history that they're going to reach any political reconciliation. And so we need to do that in a smart, orderly way by telling them we’re doing it, withdrawing troops over a period of ten to twelve months. We ought to engage in every effort we can to help bring them together, to encourage political compromise, and we ought to engage the Iranians, the Syrians, and other countries in the region into helping stabilize Iraq. The Iranians clearly have an interest in a stable Iraq. They don’t want refugees coming across their border, they don’t want the economic instability, and they don’t want a broader Middle East conflict between Shia and Sunni. The Syrians have a similar interest, although they’re Sunni, not Shia.

And then, the president has a responsibility beyond that. We have interest in the region, that’s obvious, we need to maintain a presence there, in Kuwait, in Afghanistan, maybe in Jordan, depending on what we can agree to there, and we definitely need to maintain a naval presence in the Persian Gulf. And the president has got to prepare for the two things that you raise. One is the possibility that the civil war becomes all-out, so that it can be contained, and the second is the possibility of genocide. My view is that this is something that’s crucial for America to plan for. In the case of the civil war, there are strategies for dealing with it, to contain it—buffer zones, moving away from population centers. And in the case of genocide, this is something we clearly need to be doing with the international community, not America doing this alone. We have to prepare for that. I’m not going to say now this far in advance exactly what the mechanism should be, but America has to have a plan for that.

[The Magistrate]

116. He Fears Genocide After We Leave, Ma'am

He does not describe what is going on presently as genocide, and certainly does not claim genocide is being committed by the United States.

[seemslikeadream]

119. So do you believe genocide could happen in Iraq?

[The Magistrate]

122. It Is Possible, Ma'am

Matters will escalate once we withdraw, and it is conceivable matters could reach an exterminationist pitch in the conflict between Shia and Sunni Arabs in Iraq, which the Sunni would certainly lose, if the conflict remained confined to that country. Other Sunni powers, most likely the Saudis in a leading role, would intervene with monies and arms and 'internationals' in order to prevent matters reaching quite that state of Sunni Arab defeat.

The next few years are going to be interesting....

[seemslikeadream]

127. if the conflict remained confined to that country.

and I suppose you will say we have no responsibility either if it doesn't

[The Magistrate]

131. Not In Any Sense That Reduces The Responsibilities Of The Actors In Question, Ma'am

Remember that you began this discussion with a statement to the effect that the United States was committing genocide in Iraq. That line has collapsed utterly, and you are reduced to arguing that the United States simply created a condition other actors are taking advantage of to commit various atrocities, and so it is 'really' the United States that is responsible, and not these various gun-men and demolitionists actually killing other Iraqis. The quick rule of thumb, Ma'am, is this: a man with a gun in his hand is responsible for what he does with it, and no one else.

[seemslikeadream]

132. line has collapsed utterly,

no it has not

[divinecommands]

133. Well said, Magistrate

By the way, from where does your signature line originate in the previous message?

[The Magistrate]

134. It Is From the Analects Of Confucious, Sir

The core statement of the Master's views, in my opinion, anyway. It boils down to 'call a spade a spade', which has always struck me as pretty good advice....

[Usrename]

136. If that's the case, then who do you think you are kidding here?

You think you are kidding us, or are you kidding yourself. Of course the death squads that roam Baghdad at night are committing genocide. Is there some other word for it that you think is more appropriate? How would you call this spade?

[The Magistrate]

137. You Seem To Think It A Simple Matter, Sir, When In Fact It Is Not

Many of the 'death squad' style killings carried out by the various militias are attempts to kill members of opposing militias. They work from lists, and make at least some attempt to identify 'combatants' of a sort. Many others are attempts at intimidation, example killings to show people of a certain sort what will happen if they do not depart a neighborhood they are a minority in. Others are random vengeance, responses to the killings of some of their sort by persons of the victims' sort, without any attempt to be particular about it. Still others are killings of suspected collaborators, and still others killings of people deemed criminals by the militias, on ordinary civil grounds, or on religious grounds, and others yet are of persons who will not co-operate with a militia, or resist assisting with its finances. These things are not genocide, which is at bottom the crime of killing with the intention of exterminating a national, ethnic, or religious group. They are typical incidents in a civil war, when one is fought in an area lacking clear boundaries between the contending groups. There are certainly some participants in this civil war who harbor exterminationist designs, but they do not as yet have sufficient scope of action to be properly considered to be committing the crime they envision.

But whether the sectarian and ethnic militias in Iraq are engaged in genocide is, while interesting in itself, quite beside the point of the charge with which this discussion began, namely that the United States is committing genocide in Iraq. These militias are not agents of the United States, but wholly independent of it, and in most instances, openly hostile to it. The United States is not responsible for their actions, neither legally or morally. The persons responsible are the people who commit these actions themselves, and no one else.

[Usrename]

139. WE ARE ARMING THEM AND ORGANIZING THEM

"But whether the sectarian and ethnic militias in Iraq are engaged in genocide is, while interesting in itself, quite beside the point of the charge with which this discussion began, namely that the United States is committing genocide in Iraq. These militias are not agents of the United States, but wholly independent of it, and in most instances, openly hostile to it. The United States is not responsible for their actions, neither legally or morally. The persons responsible are the people who commit these actions themselves, and no one else."

Do you ever listen to yourself? Do you really believe that the Iraqi soldiers that we are training are wholly independent of the United States? Give me a break. You cannot be serious about this. In your mind, it's like we aren't even there. We never invaded and bombed the crap out them.

You can't be serious.

You must think we are being greeted as liberators or something. The Iraqis must have asked us to come and bomb them. That's the only reason we are there, it's all being done at their invitation. That makes us really their agent, not the other way round.

You can't be taken seriously.

Under existing law and the Nuremburg principles what you are saying is not true. It just is not true. It has not ever been true. Not during my lifetime.

[The Magistrate]

141. You Do Not Seem, Sir, To Be Very Clear About the Situation In Iraq

At present most of the killing is being carried out by bodies independent of the government either of Iraq or the United States. It is true some of the militias are associated with some political party or bloc participating in the government of Iraq, but that is not the same thing as its being an agent of the government; they are party armies, very different creatures than national armies. It is also true that both the Iraqi police and army are infiltrated by militia members, who on occasion use the color of uniformed legitimacy to pass more easily about their private, extra-governmental business. This is a very standard move for insurgent bodies and other private forces in conditions of occupation and civil war. It is also true that the U.S. garrisons in certain locations have made alliances with one militia body to assist in actions against another militia body deemed harder to control or more threatening. this, too, is a pretty standard move for an occupying force in a severely fractured jurisdiction. Neither of these last two items constitute the sort of control and command required for considering what those militia elements do to be done as agents of the Iraqi or U.S. governments.

The militias are fighting their civil war. They know we are going to depart sooner or later. While we are there, they will attempt to play us, and have been doing a pretty good job of it. In the initial stages of the insurgency, U.S. forces served, in local terms, more or less as the combat arm of the Shia against the Sunni Arabs, while the Shia militias concentrated on taking control of their own districts, and getting as many of their members as they could on the payroll of the central government. Now some Sunni militias, under guise of operating against foreign jihadis, which to some extent they actually do, are using the U.S. to secure arms and training for use in the escalation of the civil war sure to follow the U.S. withdrawl, when they anticipate the Shia militias will expand their operations out of mixed neighborhood 'borderlands' into the Sunni Arab heartland north and west of the capital. That is probably a pretty sound expectation, as the grudges run a couple of generations deep by now. Actual operations against U.S. forces have become important to the militias only as a means of demonstrating nationalist credentials in bids for wider popular support: the issue of our departure is already essentially settled, from their point of view. We are leaving, in a year or two, certainly in not much more, and everyone seriously involved knows it. This is a very simplified picture, largely omitting the various foreign elements and influences, but it will do to be going on.

[divinecommands]

70. Morality & Agency

Magistrate, it's highly refreshing to see someone able and willing to properly ascribe moral responsibility. Iraqis ARE killing Iraqis. To refuse to hold those committing the killings responsible is to treat them as something less than human.

[seemslikeadream]

83. WHO MADE THAT SITUATION POSSIBLE, divinecommands?

george bush and he is president of the United States of America and we are citizens of this country and we will be held accountable for the actions of our president. We must own this fact

BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE
EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...

HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...

BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE

http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html WATCH THIS VIDEO


Wumpscut
Totmacher

sie ahnten nichts von mir
von meiner wilden gier
doch als du kamst zu mir
da wurde ich ein tier
kein gedanke an danach
als ich dir die knochen brach

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

tot

fuer mein naechstes leben
schoepfe ich neue kraft
ich bin dem toeten ergeben
in der einzelhaft

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot
tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ein dahinsichen
von gottes hand
ich kann dich riechen
und das denken verschwand

tot tot tot tot tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot tot tot tot tot

ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot
ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot

sag mir was du willst
dass du meine sehnsucht stillst
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
von blut alles rot auf gottes altar

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot glaub mir es ist wahr
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot auf gottes altar


TRANSLATION

Wumpscut - Deadmaker

They didn't expect me
never expected my wild lust
I turned into an animal
No thought about afterwards
When I broke your bones

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Dead

For my next life (life after death in the religious sense)
I get the power I need
I’m a slave to the killing
In solitary confinement

("einzelhaft" (solitary confinment) has become part of the german vocabulary after the terrorist attacks of the Red Army Fraction during the 70's. It's used for people in prison, who are put into complete isolation not just from other people, but from all kinds of information. It's what might be known in the US as "sensual deprivation", a kind of torture-technique to destroy people's self.)

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Wasting away
By God’s hand
I can smell you
And my thought disappeared

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead, dead

I make you dead I make you dead
I make you dead I make you dead

Tell me what you want
That you fill my longing (that you satisfy my desire)
I make you dead for evermore
God’s altar stained from blood so red

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead believe me its true
I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead on God’s altar

[divinecommands]

86. Shouting will not make your point any clearer..

People who think about these things distinguish between causal and moral responsibility. Hitler's parents made Hitler possible. They caused him to exist. But they do not bear moral responsibility for his actions.

The United States produced a situation in Iraq that makes it possible for Iraqis to kill Iraqis, in a way that was not possible when Hussein was in charge. But if Iraqis decide to take advantage of that situation and kill each other, why should the U.S. bear full or even partially responsibility for their actions?

[seemslikeadream]

93. No sir the people of Germany made Hitler possible

AND I WILL SHOUT WHERE EVER AND WHEN EVER I FEEL LIKE IT. WHAT IS BEING DONE IN MY NAME

WILL NOT GO UNCHALLENGED BY MYSELF. I WILL NOT SIT DOWN, I WILL NOT SHUT UP. I WILL SAY

THAT I SMELL THE STENCH OF BURNING FLESH WHEN I SMELL IT.

[The Magistrate]

87. That Does Not Matter A Tinker's Damn, Ma'am

What matters is what people choose to do themselves in the situations they are in; how or by who they were created is immaterial.

[seemslikeadream]

91. USA Crimes: Iraq, Fallujah Genocide_Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8zJGwofCzc

USA Crimes: Iraq, Fallujah Genocide_Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIw6WKh9FY

[seemslikeadream]

94. Iraqi Woman Speaks Out about Genocide in Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZmPkW-tOJo

[Usrename]

101. There isn't any law that I know of that says what you are saying.

It would be one of the most immoral laws that I could ever imagine, if what you are spewing were codified somewhere. It's just totally disgusting.

Most legal frameworks have historically been based on some sort of moral foundation. Even Nuremberg.

The way I read our laws, Bush is ultimately responsible for almost every death that has occurred in Iraq. Just like Saddam was responsible while he was in charge. Why is that so difficult of a concept for you to grasp?

Why is Bush's responsibility under Bush's Iraq any less than Saddam's responsibility under Saddam's Iraq?

You are morally bankrupt if you think there is a difference because Bush is "born again."

The Fourth Geneva Convention

(August 12, 1949)

Art. 29. The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred.

[The Magistrate]

110. Good Luck With That, Sir

Law is generally regarded as constructed to keep those who have from being over-much worried by those who have not, but if you wish to imagine it a moral exercise, you are free to do so, for all the good it will do you in understanding the subject and its application.

The concept you seem to be wrestling with is command responsibility, the doctrine that leaders are responsible for the acts of their subordinates, either because they ordered those actions, or because they knew of them, or should have known of them, and did not use their leadership authority either to halt them or to punish those who perpetrated them. Under this doctrine, it would be quite proper to hold the present administration responsible for war crimes committed by United States forces, particularly systematic ones such as the routine torture of prisoners in our custody in Iraq, and in Guantanamo. That such torture occurs is well-established fact, and there are in public circulation memoranda by administration officials that declare it openly as policy to engage in actions international law regards as torture, and that constitute grave violations of international law.

But there is no question whatever of command responsibility where any U.S. official is concerned over killings done by forces that are not under U.S. command, or are even openly hostile to the United States. This is, at present, the great bulk of the killing being done in Iraq. If Mahdi Army militants shoot a couple of dozen Sunni Arabs this afternoon in Baghdad, or if salafist jihadis set off a bomb outside a Shia mosque, it has nothing to do, in any legal sense, with the United States. Nor, put bluntly, can the people who do this lay off any portion of their moral responsibility for their own actions onto the United States. They chose to kill people, for reasons that seemed good enough to them. They, and no one else, are responsible for their actions.

[seemslikeadream]

113. If it makes you feel good convinced you're not responsible

go ahead, it's you're right to not claim any responsibility. Just don't expect us all to be so delusional

[The Magistrate]

117. Do You Think Calling Me Delusional Carries Much Weight, Ma'am?

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[seemslikeadream]

124. of course not and I didn't mean to call you delusional

just that certain way of thinking for me would be delusional. For you I'm quite positive it would completely rational

[The Magistrate]

128. But That Is Exactly What You Did, Ma'am

It is impossible to take any other meaning in plain English from the words "Just don't expect us all to be so delusional" that you addressed to me.

It does not bother me, certainly, and my question was genuine: that sort of tactic has always seemed worthless to me, and what people think they gain by employing it is a puzzlement to me.

[seemslikeadream]

130. I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with you on this

I admitted it would be I not you

[unkachuck]

138. I like you....

....very much, Magistrate....but if I were to meet you on the street and pour a gallon of gasoline all over you and then the spark from a malicious persons cigarette provided ignition, would I be in anyway responsible for you burning alive?

[The Magistrate]

140. What A Mind You Have, Sir

What an extraordinary metaphor to conceive and employ in a civil conversation....

Perhaps had you given less attention to satisfying an urge to shock, and perhaps even disguising the clear expression of a wish, you might have been able to come up with something a good deal more apt to the actual situation arguement by metaphor in this instance requires you to capture.

Iraq is not a naturally emerging country, like Syria or Egypt or Iran or Saudi Arabia, or even a homogenous jurisdiction like Jordan. It is a wholly artificial construct, without any stability save what has been provided by an iron hand in the capital since its creation from several Ottoman provinces in 1922. Nothing had to be added to the situation to make it imflammable, rather something had to be, and was, removed, namely the iron hand in the capital. That is the principal weakness of your metaphore. There are many others, but it would be tedious to list them.

It continues to both amuse and amaze me to see what lengths people will go to excuse from responsibility for their actions the people who actually take weapons in their hands and kill point-blank fellow human beings. Perhaps you could tell me why this is?

[malaise]

88. Like Fallujah, Abu Ghraib

like the wedding parties slaughtered by US bombs. Spare me please. This entire mess was created by Geroge Walker Bush and Dick Cheney. They are responsible for all the deaths. They invaded a sovereign state illegally.
This is genocide - a major war crime.

[leftchick]

98. SHHHhhhhhh!

It is all the Iraqis' fault now "for being so savage". :puke:

[seemslikeadream]

Iraq War Veteran tell the truth about the Iraq war

MORALITY SIR?

WHERE IS YOUR MORALITY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTNVSPto3Go

[seemslikeadream]

96. having consulted their own convictions and morality

My explanation - which is new to the scholarly literature on the perpetrators - is that the perpetrators, "ordinary Germans," were animated by antisemitism by a particular type of antisemitism that led them to conclude that the Jews ought to die. The perpetrators' beliefs, their particular brand of antisemitism, though obviously not the sole source, was, I maintain, a most significant and indispensable source of the perpetrators' actions and must be at the center of any explanation of them. Simply put, the perpetrators, having consulted their own convictions and morality and having judged the mass annihilation of Jews to be right, did not want to say "no."

[Usrename]

103. So, in your morality Saddam was completely innocent, too?

Just Iraqis killing other Iraqis.

That would be how you would define morality?

Avoid assigning any and all consequences to ones actions?

How disgusting.

[divinecommands]

108. Quite the opposite..

Saddam exercised coercion against his subjects to make them do what he wanted them to do. The use of coercion against a person is exactly the kind of thing that can suspend his responsibility when he acts in the way his ruler (i.e. Hussein) orders him to. The responsibility is transferred to the person who is holding the power of the gun -- ultimately, the dictator.

When one person killed another on Saddam Hussein's orders, Hussein bore much of the responsibility for the action precisely because he was exercising coercion in that way. Hussein was treating both people -- the one actually pulling the trigger, and the one being killed -- as objects, mere means to the satisfaction of his own whims.

When a Sunni packs a car full of explosives and blows it up in a crowded marketplace, no one is coercing him into that action. The buck stops with him. He is responsible for his actions. Holding him responsible is a way of showing respect to his humanity, to his status as something more than an object.

[Usrename]

135. There are a lot of problems with the way you view this conflict.

As in any occupation, there are collaborators and there resitance and there are a lot of civilians that have not picked up arms. All of the collaborators in Iraq are the agents of this CIC. We are arming them. They are killing with our consent. They are even killing a lot of civilians. Get it?

It is also undeniable that there have been false-flag car bombs, and even suicide bombs. Back when it was common for the Iraqi police stations to get suicide bombed, it turns out that most of them were innocent civilians that had been pulled over and a bomb planted in thier car while they were being interrogated. When they were released they were instructed to report to the police station, where the bomb planted in their car was detonated. After this was made public, the suicide bombings police stations slowed.

I don't know where you get your ideas from, but the death squads that come out at night are working for us. They seem to be killing the most people there.

Where has this ever been seen before, in the entire history of mankind? As far as I can tell, the death squads at night thing is something our own CIA is very experienced at putting together. I have never, ever heard of any case of it happening where our CIA is not involved. Even the most brutal sectarian violence in Rwanda happened in broad daylight. The night-roaming death squads is sort of a trademark, isn't it?

[divinecommands]

143. Missed the point

"When a Sunni packs a car full of explosives and blows it up in a crowded marketplace, no one is coercing him into that action. The buck stops with him. He is responsible for his actions."

Of course, if the explosives were put into the car by the CIA, and the detonation occurs as the result of a CIA agent pulling the trigger... but that wasn't my example.

Unless you think that any and all violence in Iraq is being ordered and organized by the CIA, you haven't addressed my point. Do you think that? Each act of Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence is a product of the CIA?

And, of course, you'd need evidence for that.

[Karenina]

149. John Negroponte. n/t

[The Magistrate]

148. People Have Been Going Out To Kill Their Enemies At Night, Sir

As long as they have been on the planet.

It has always been my favored time to strike....

[Usrename]

150. Yeah, right. Not!

I remember hearing about all the death squads roaming the countryside during our own Civil War. One of the bloodiest ever.

Yeah, right. Not.

Keep kidding yourself. It can't be our fault! We have no connection at all to the genocide there in Iraq.

Yeah, right.

[The Magistrate]

151. Not From Missouri, Eh, Sir?

"And I'm ridin' to the Quantrill side, with a pistol at my side...."

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowknows69]

41. Shit, I have to go to work

and I don't want to leave this one. Give em hell Dream and LC.
Shadow out

[Swamp Rat]

59. According to PNAC's original "Statement of Principles" of June 3, 1997,

Yes.

Acceptum 'Pax Americana' aut mortuus sum.

[Zywiec]

60. The Genocide was going on long before this war

Apparently no one knows or cares about the 500,000 children alone killed by the US backed sanctions in Iraq during the '90's. What would you call this, the period of peace?

[mod mom]

68. Think also of their response to Katrina, EPA response for NYC, those aren't "THEIR"

people.

[seemslikeadream]

100. Donchano it's the folks of New Orleans who should have helped themselves

but this is to SMALL to be called a genocide, I guess

She calls out to the man on the street

sir, can you help me?

Its cold and Ive nowhere to sleep,

Is there somewhere you can tell me?

He walks on, doesnt look back
He pretends he cant hear her

Starts to whistle as he crosses the street
Seems embarrassed to be there

Oh think twice, its another day for

You and me in paradise

Oh think twice, its just another day for you,

You and me in paradise

She calls out to the man on the street

He can see shes been crying
Shes got blisters on the soles of her feet

Cant walk but shes trying

Oh think twice...

Oh lord, is there nothing more anybody can do

Oh lord, there must be something you can say

You can tell from the lines on her face

You can see that shes been there

Probably been moved on from every place

cos she didnt fit in there

Oh think twice...



Thanks again to Phil Collins for the words
My heart to the people of New Orleans

[MrMickeysMom]

129. That's wonderful. We don't do body counts, but the data is flawed

I thought it interesting that the age old genocide techniques of getting tribes to kill each other off is something we'd have an awful lot of data on.