Male Sexual Harassment Is Not A Joke

[DeSwiss]

Male sexual harassment is not a joke
It’s real and reported cases are on the rise — here’s how to handle it

MSNBC.com
By Eve Tahmincioglu
Updated: 5:25 p.m. CT July 9, 2007


Roy McMahon/Corbis
“Many people mistakenly believe that harassment is limited to females,”
says Roberta Chinsky Matuson, a human resource expert. “The truth is
that this type of experience is just as damaging to men.”

We often talk about sexual harassment against women in the workplace but for this column I’m going to address the growing problem of sexual harassment against men in the workplace. Are you laughing? You probably are. That’s what happened recently when I discussed the topic with friends and colleagues. Few seem to take this issue seriously. But for quite a few men, sexual harassment is indeed becoming a serious issue, and some men are deciding not to just brush aside the unwelcome advances from women and men. “Many people mistakenly believe that harassment is limited to females,” says Roberta Chinsky Matuson, a human resource expert. “The truth is that this type of experience is just as damaging to men.”

While the number of sexual harassment cases over all has consistently declined in the past few years, “sexual harassment filings by men have consistently increased, doubling over 15 years,” says David Grinberg, a spokesman for the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, or EEOC. Even though women filing charges makes up the bulk of the EEOC’s sexual harassment workload, men are becoming a bigger piece of the pie, with nearly 2000 filing charges last year.

And that’s cases that get to the EEOC. Many labor experts say men are less likely than women to speak up about such cases of harassment for fear of being mocked by coworkers, and even fewer would take the charges to a government agency and risk widespread knowledge of their plight.

Thomas, who works in academia but didn’t want his full name used, found himself in an office made up of mainly women who would routinely share and copy each other emailed jokes and emails about men. A few, he adds, “made fun of men’s unique anatomy, if you know what I mean.” The behavior, he says, made him feel isolated. When he finally addressed the matter with the women in the office, “the women were stunned, generally with a ‘You’ve got to be kidding,’ kind of attitude. And they kept doing it.”

more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19536167/

[trumad]

1. What a woos.

not you poster,,, the guy in the article.

[BlooInBloo]

2. It'll remain a joke to me until 1/2-ish of the American population is held down by it.

[trumad]

4. Yeah--- it's like the poor persecuted white guy syndrome.

LOL

[Lee_n_Tenn]

85. Patheticly Hypocritical.. N/T

[Heidi]

117. Do we really have to let a problem get that big before we deal with it?

I don't think so.

[Katherine Brengle]

139. I am tempted to agree...

though I do think bonafide cases should be treated the same, the problem is NOT anywhere near what it is for women. Not to mention it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the male sexual harassment comes from other males rather than women.

[Alexander]

166. BlooInBloo: "Two wrongs make a right."

[EFerrari]

3. Not a joke at all. K&R

[stevedeshazer]

36. Thank you

The posts here sicken me. Harassment is harassment.

I've been stalked by someone I used to supervise.

All these guys here who joke about it, fuck off. And all the women who post here about it as if women are the only ones harassed and stalked, double fuck off.

The late-night phone calls, the threats to my wife, the hostile work environment - they are no joke.

What's next, folks, some queer jokes? Some transgender jokes?

How about some dyke jokes? Mary Kay Latourneau jokes?

Hardy-har har. WTF, are you still in junior fucking high?

[EFerrari]

40. I have two sons. Both have been stalked. This isn't funny.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

104. Agree...

I have known a couple of men who were harrassed sexually by women. It's far more common the other way around, but no harrassment is pleasant, especially when it comes from someone with greater power.

[Buzz Clik]

5. So... male sexual harassment filings doubled in 15 years ... to 2000

Let's talk when they hit, say, 50,000.

[EFerrari]

43. Why -- aren't any one of those guys important to you?

Maybe you need to be the mom of one of those guys to get it.

[Lee_n_Tenn]

86. They will never report it like I never reported it BECAUSE of the attitude of you .. thanks

[monktonman]

6. I get it at work all the time

I use it to get raises and special privileges.
Its not easy being handsome but someones gotta do it.

[trumad]

8. Actually a cute ass is all you need.

[monktonman]

28. I was trying to be polite

Didnt want to talk about my ass.
Instead of kissing my boss's ass
SHE KISSES MINE.

[Donnachaidh]

7. oh gee, We should line up all those women and shoot them

Of course, the DECADES of women dealing with the watercooler jokes by men, the construction workers shouting filth, the advertisements telling women they *ain't* women unless they have plastic hooters and a lifetime supply of birth control doesn't count for anything right?

But have one guy work in an office filled with *gasp* women -- git yer guns boys! Them thar females is harrassing this guy!

[trumad]

10. I couldn't imagine telling my buddies in my local pub

that I'm getting harassed at my workplace by uhhhh women. They'd throw me out of the pub.

[RedCappedBandit]

96. Some buddies you got there.

Sound like a bunch of really open minded and thoughtful individuals! :wave:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. Thankfully That's Not the Standard

eom

[YOY]

121. Change the word "harassed" to "b*tched at" and mention the word "hen house"

and they'll sing a different tune. Means the same thing roughly in this case just in semidrunken male vernacular.

All female environments tend to be ultra catty and all male environments tend to be macho testosterone festivals.

I worked at a place that was primarily women and I wasn't "harassed" but they made sure I wasn't involved in any social activities...on purpose or by accidental design (oooh! The lunchroom discussion of Desperate Housewives!!! Sign me the f*** up!)

I've also worked at strongly male environments and the tough guy bs was annoying to all hell.

I can say that strongly male or female workplaces bite big wind.

[rfranklin]

11. Why is it you have to claim all harassment for yourself?

Victimhood is power, isn't it?

[Donnachaidh]

15. oh dear -- was I hogging the harrassment?

Really?

Let me call Billo and have him sic the Lesbian death squad on you. That should make you feel *included*. :sarcasm:

[rfranklin]

17. You are one angry person...

Hope it gets better for you.

[Donnachaidh]

30. no dear, not angry at all

Having lived through decades of working in the real world, I find it amusing to see the very few men who whine about being surrounded by "women in an office" crying about harrassment.

In your world women don't deal with that on a daily basis, huh?

[rfranklin]

46. Face your anger, you will feel much better...

You are saying that you have a bigger claim to victimhood. Is it not bad when anyone gets harassed?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lee_n_Tenn]

87. MEN get raped, molested, and harassed but because of you we are supposed to suck it up ..

and pretend its nothing to worry about because "we are men and we like sex any way we can get it" .. "we wanted it" ... "we are lucky that chick gave us the attention" .. yeah I have heard it all. I am a very good looking male and from a very young age I have had to deal with this and I have insomnia and a total fear of sleep because of what I may think or dream.

[Occulus]

145. Funny. I always thought women were working for an end to

ALL sexually-based harassment in the workplace- for either gender. Strange- I thought that's what the EEOC was supposed to be about...

[undercutter2006]

158. why

Yes, in today's world men have better statistical probability of being in position of power, and thus having better ability to harass women if they are assholes. That's why there are, as you say, 'very few men' who are 'crying' about harrassment. But there are situations like that. As women, slowly but surely, assume equal status in the society, there are bound to be situations where they abuse their power as well. It doesn't invalidate the fact that men have better position in general to do this kind of thing, so why are you so incredibly threatened by this story? Women can be sexist, minorities can be racist, and they can exercise their bigotry in a self-contained environment such as an office, where they are the majority and where they hold all the power. So why is it a surprise that white men realize that the tools such as harrassment laws can be used to their benefit as well. Isn't that the sign of progress?

[BlooInBloo]

33. Apparently it is to you.

[NaturalHigh]

23. Shoot them, no. Just hold them to the same standards as men.

Novel concept, I realize.

[Donnachaidh]

31. Let's have the MEN meet those standards FIRST.

It still isn't happening.

Want high standards -- SET them.

[NaturalHigh]

38. Two wrongs make a right?

Got it. By the way, I work in an all-male office and don't have to worry about any of this crap, but I find it interesting that you would basically say this is no big deal if it's happening to a man. You have some serious anger issues regarding gender.

[Donnachaidh]

41. oh let's put tags on people when they don't agree with your views

That's mature. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

44. Looks like you have no problem with harassment in principle -- only when it happens

to people you identify with.

:eyes:

[Donnachaidh]

49. oh I guess women don't have a voice in this then?

Or is the problem the fact that a woman was laughing at *one* possible case of harrassment?

[mondo joe]

51. Men and women of principle have a place in all such discussions.

Those who hold no principle but self interest are just a shame.

[NaturalHigh]

45. At least as mature as playing the victim card...

to avoid an issue. Is a man who is harassed any less victimized than a woman? Is a man who is raped any less victimized than a woman? Do you claim all of these as purely "women's issues"?

[Donnachaidh]

47. who's avoiding an issue when they label someone as angry?

It's really surprising the amount of vitriol pouring forth from your keypad dude. But hey, shouting people down is a guy thing, right? :sarcasm:

[NaturalHigh]

50. Actually, I can confront the issue...

and believe that you're angry at the same time. I've worked hard to become a better multi-tasker. As for shouting people down, if guys invented it, the "I blame the patriarchy!" crowd has perfected it. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

53. I know right? They're SOOOO *emotional*!! roflmao!

[NaturalHigh]

57. "Irrational" would have been the word I chose.

Being emotional, passionate even, is a virtue, in my opinion.

[BlooInBloo]

58. Of course it is. My bad.

[BlooInBloo]

39. You must be new to this country - that's not how white christian men work....

... (1) They take all power for themselves, and operate without standards, either de jure or de facto ('cuz they're in power). Then, when they lose even the smallest snippet of their despotic powers, they (2) Make up all of these standards ad hoc when there's even a WHIFF of a HINT of an example of power being used just ONCE against them. Meanwhile, they're still operating standards-free, since their buddies are manning (!) all of the waypoints in the justice process.

Hence the phrase "it takes 10 'atta-boys' to make up for 1 'aw shit'" (created for use by black folks, easily re-configured for use by women).

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. You have it wrong. ONE aw shit ruins a THOUSAND attaboys. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Please Tell Me You Recognize The Utter Stupidity Of Such A Concept. I Truly Hope You Do. n/t

[Lee_n_Tenn]

88. I meet and exceed those standards. Why have I been molested, date raped, and harassed?..

I don't think I should have had to deal with any of that. I protect men and women alike, friends and strangers, from anything I feel is wrong. I have jumped into fights, domestic abuse, and other issues that most people just watch with disbelief. I have risked my life many times to help men and women. Why then should it be ok that I have fallen victem to crimes against me? I set a high standard. I have custody of my children, not my drug addicted, child abusing EX. And, BTW, it was twice as hard for me to get the law on my side as it is for females in our courts. I could go on forever but I think its pretty sad that you are such a hate filled person and either bitter at men or an ugly man chiming in on a subject you can't know about.

[hfojvt]

93. speaking as an ugly man here

I get plenty of harrassment from women. The a) let's remind this guy that he's unattractive just in case he forgot since yesterday, and the b) let's tell him that girl X likes him so he'll go talk to her and make a fool out of himself and creep her out (as if it's likely he hasn't heard that one since, like, the 3rd grade).

But of course, since we are supposedly a minority, we don't count. As long as there is one man, or 30% or even 10% of men who are abusing women that makes all men privileged and all women victims.

Also, welcome to DU :hi:

[RedCappedBandit]

97. Uh, okay?

Ever think that the men being targeted might not be the men subjecting women to harassment?

[MonkeyFunk]

150. so no man can

complain about being harassed until ALL sexual harassment against women ends? That's stupid.

[LoZoccolo]

52. Lame. n/t

[Ariana Celeste]

103. ...

:thumbsdown:

[Heidi]

116. Um, this isn't "us vs. them." It's real people being subjected to a hostile work environment.

I don't want that for women, and I don't want it for men. What women have been subjected to in the workplace to for ages should give us a certain empathy and determination that we don't want _anyone_, regardless of gender, to go through the same thing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Exactly. And your attitude promotes reciprocity. n/t

[Heidi]

126. I just get tired of the whole "us vs. them" thing whenever there's a discussion

of any topic remotely related to gender. As a woman in the workplace, men in general have never been my enemy. They're my colleagues, mentors and friends, just as I have been colleague, mentor and friend to hundreds of men in my career. How anyone (boss, subordinate, male, female, whatever) can feel successful when _anyone_ is being targeted for abuse in the workplace is beyond me.

[slick8790]

128. Oh ok.

I forget it was alright for women to harass men for something other men did/do. :sarcasm:

[baby_mouse]

141. You're stupid.

Harassment is harassment. It makes no difference what the gender of the victim is or whether the harassment is sexual or otherwise. People have a right not to be harassed.

[EstimatedProphet]

204. Oh give me a break!

Because someone posts something saying that harassment isn't exclusively against one sex only, it is somehow an attack on that sex? What world do you come from?

[MonkeyFunk]

9. Correct

it is not a joke.

I once had to deal with it, as a manager.

The situation was complicated by the fact that the offender was the son of the CEO. But I put a stop to it.

It's not funny, either.

[trumad]

13. You were being harassed by another dude?

did I read that right?

[MonkeyFunk]

22. No

I was a manager, and one of my guys was sexually harassing another one of my guys.

It was a very difficult situation, because the harasser was the son of the CEO, and the victim was very very reluctant to come to me about the issue.

But I told the harasser that I would fire him if it continued, and if he succeeded in getting ME fired because of his connection to the CEO, I would come to his house and kick his ass.

He stopped.

[trumad]

25. Gotcha

and you handled it perfectly.

[MonkeyFunk]

35. it's the only time in my managerial career

where I ever made it personal. I had no other choice.

[dsc]

82. Oh so it magicly becomes harassment worthy of being dealt with

when it is a another dude doing the harassing. Interesting.

[whopis01]

148. Where did you get that idea from?

The poster (MonkeyFunk) never said that it wasn't worthy of being dealt with unless it was another male doing the harassing. He simply said that it was his only experience with it.

[dsc]

157. where did you get the idea I was answering monkey funk

I was answering Trumad

[whopis01]

194. yes, who was responding to MonkeyFunk's incident.

[RedCappedBandit]

98. So its a situation that requires adressing..

when a man is harassing another man, but when a woman doing it you're a wuss to speak out? I fail to see your logic.

[whopis01]

149. Where did he call anyone a wuss?

He was just stating a situation that he was involved in that involved two men.

He never maid any claims about anyone being a wuss if they spoke out in other situations.

[RedCappedBandit]

182. Up thread..

first reply..

[gollygee]

12. Yep, straight men are once again the real victims in the world

Why do we even bother worrying about sexual harassment against women? It isn't really that big of a deal when you consider that men are also on occasion victimized.
















(sarcasm btw)

[BlooInBloo]

14. Especially the white christian ones - man, they can't catch a break!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. Do You Believe It Is Worthy To Look For A Cure For Breast Cancer?

Cause according to you, since lung cancer is far more deadly, we should only have research for finding a cure for that. Gotta love logic like that (no ya don't).

[RedCappedBandit]

99. I didn't realize it was a competition.

Can you tell me why, just because females are targeted even more often, we should ignore the issue when a male is the victim?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

198. Great logic

Why don't you go back and find ANYWHERE in the article where it is advocated that we end all talk of sexual harassment against women by men, or in this thread, because of a discussion that men sometimes get harrassed by women or other men.

Oh wait.......you can't.

I'll tell you, it's issues like this when you really find out about some DU'ers and their perspectives on treating all people as equals.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Sounds Like A Legitimate Concern.

Unfortunately, some will undoubtedly feel insecure and irrationally threatened as if acknowledging such means that sexual harassment against women is being undermined somehow, as if one can't discuss one without somehow tarnishing the other. So silly.

But regardless of gender (and of course it's still far worse for women), no one should be made to feel uncomfortable or biased against at work based on gender. That's a no brainer, regardless of actual numbers.

[Scurrilous]

18. Here’s not how to handle it...

Shooting suspect: Butt-grab made me do it

<snip>

"A Hialeah truck driver who says he shotgunned his pal to death last week told detectives he was furious because the man began grabbing "his buttocks in a sexual manner," authorities disclosed Monday.

Rolando Aguilar, 55, then ransacked his own bedroom to make it appear robbers had stormed the apartment and killed Omar Febles, 48.

He later confessed, according to a Hialeah police arrest report released Monday.

Aguilar is charged with first-degree murder and the use of a firearm during the commission of a felony. He is being held with no bond at Miami-Dade County Jail."

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/165248.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Stop it, you.

It's not funny, apparently.

[trumad]

21. ROTF

[Jim Sagle]

209. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[jpgray]

20. On an individual basis, sexual harrassment is equally deplorable from either gender

On a societal basis, women suffer much more.

[NaturalHigh]

24. Yes to both points.

[BlooInBloo]

27. Bah - killjoy.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. true

but the only instance *I* had to deal with as a manager was male-on-male.

But it should all be treated harshly. It's unacceptable.

[Donnachaidh]

37. thank you!

Women have to deal with it daily. Not *just* on the job either. But mention that little fact and you get called an angry femi-nazi.

[SayWhatYo]

135. I don't think anyone called you a femi-nazi...

I believe you just labeled yourself that. Anyways, you were criticized not because you pointed out that this is more common for women, but because you marginalized it when it happens to men. The post in which you your post replied to, is not saying the same things you were saying. Your posts were saying that men have no room to complain their stories are not relevant, and that they should suck it up. The post above was saying that on an individual level they are JUST AS BAD(you seem to believe it's worse for women), but as a whole the issue is much more of an issue for women. I doubt anyone would disagree with that assessment.

[aikoaiko]

29. Roosters coming home to roost. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

54. I like that!

:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

61. Aren't "roosters coming home to roost" when someone who DID something has it come

back to them?

Are you saying harassed men harassed others and now are getting it back?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. No. It Is Simply A Sexist Statement That Lumps All Men Together As One Entity.

Pretty thoroughly ignorant of a premise, really.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. And An Illiberal One Too

I'll give the poster a pass though... She's usually ok...

Harassment is harassment regardless of the target and the perpetrator...

[aikoaiko]

76. Actually, thats not what i was alluding too, but I see that I was ambiguous.

I was alluding to the fact that most sexual harassment laws were designed with men as aggressors and women as victims in mind (although most policies and laws are gender neutral and rightly so).

In many cases women dominate fields or are in positions of power over men and that can lead to the same harassing situations that have historically plagued women.

If women are harassing then let the justice system, corporate policy, or EEOC do its job.

[Catherine Vincent]

174. And that's exactly what I thought you were alluding to.

I would never condone sexual harassment against men or women. This is too serious a topic.

[Elspeth]

34. Didn't Jenny Craig have a male sexual harrassment scandal a few years back?

I seem to remember something about that.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. I have to admit, my new boss is good looking.

And he has a nice body. He's lucky I know his wife. :)

[Jed Dilligan]

55. I was harassed by icky old ladies,

never occurred to me to complain, it was just another shitty part of a shitty job.

[wuushew]

56. Disclosure (1994)

[trumad]

59. yeah--poor Mike

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. What If He Was Gay?

Would it have been harassment then?

[devilgrrl]

62. What about man on man sexual harrassment? We've got a situation at the office with that.

If feel sorry for the subjects, as the perpetrator is a huge incompetent jerk that has gotten away with it so far.

[LoZoccolo]

193. I actually face that right here on DU.

The moderators have done nothing but ignore me.

[B Calm]

63. Hell I'm 56 years old and a young girl at work grabbed my ass

at work the other day. I was a little surprised, but hell I liked it!

[Seedersandleechers]

119. sexual harassment should not be tolerated

It should be given a grade..:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SayWhatYo]

131. She should sue you for enjoying it....

[joeunderdog]

65. I think this thread is proving the point.

Way to go DU'ers. The responses here are way to predictable. Looks like we're again showing why it's called Feminism and not Equalism.

And it doesn't stop here. Double standards are alive and (not so) well in the eyes of the Law. While male teachers commit Rape against female students, female teachers are rarely found to be anything more than "sexually inappropriate." In divorces, mothers are inexplicably assumed to be the better natural parent, and men often have to go to court to fight for custody. And for all the (legitimate) demands mothers place on fathers, a woman has the legal right give a child away for adoption without ever notifying the father or offering him an option to parent his own biological child. Why is that?

[BlooInBloo]

68. History.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. In the present, if you want partners in ending harassment toward women

you can't pick and choose which kind of harassment to oppose.

Here's the deal; reciprocity.

[BlooInBloo]

123. Here's a better deal: take care of 99.999% of the problem FIRST...

.... then deal with the statistically anomalous cases.

[eShirl]

127. I'll take your 99.999% and raise you 0.001%

harassment is harassment.

[Lee_n_Tenn]

90. WELL SAID! But most here are too insecure and bitter to understand TRUTH. n/t

[nolabels]

91. Well somebody has to be on top, don't they?

:shrug:



btw, As a male working in a mostly male trade, the harassment of male on male sometimes gets unspeakably uproarious. Rarely and i have yet to see someone that didn't get worked into gags and jokes. Boys will be boys and i see it only as the way others sometimes use to gain trust with each other. The micromanagement of normalcy has gone to great lengths to unhinge itself as usual :crazy:

[SayWhatYo]

138. 5 out 30 people makes all of DU????

The majority of the posters on this thread do not think this should be treated any different than male-on-female harassment.

[Missy Vixen]

66. Okay, this may seem like a stupid question

I have to ask.

What is the difference between showing interest and harassment? Seriously. I once worked for someone who harassed me. In other words, he put his hands on me when I'd made it clear I did not want him to touch me. I've met others who believe that any attention whatsoever -- friendliness, for instance, is construed as harassment. "He spoke to me, I didn't want him talking to me," for an example.

Seriously: I'm curious. What would men say is the dividing line between just being friendly and actively harassing someone? What would women say on that same question?

Julie

[BlooInBloo]

67. As a guy, I don't bother to argue the point: the line is wherever the woman says it is.

[Missy Vixen]

195. BlooinBloo, here's the thing, though

What happened to me - harassment. No doubt. I asked the person to stop what he was doing and not touch me; he did it again, and I went to someone who could help.

I've met and worked with women who believe that a male co-worker even speaking with them or being friendly is harassment. (By "friendly," I mean just the normal stuff that goes on in an office -- "Hi, how are you today?" "I like your dress/You look nice today/etcetera.") I can't even imagine what it must be like to be a guy in the current workplace, because frankly, I've met a few women who need to take it down a notch.

We've obviously established that touching someone who doesn't want to be touched or making sexually explicit conversation with someone who's not interested in it is not okay. How would anyone know their attentions were unwelcome without the other party telling them so, however?

IMHO, YMMV,
Julie

[Toasterlad]

74. You Were Absolutely Harassed. In Fact, You Were Assaulted.

Just because he didn't physically harm you doesn't mean he didn't assault you. You told him not to touch you, and he did. The fact that he was your boss makes it worse. But unwanted touching - from ANY gender - is harassment. It's entirely up to the touchee how he or she chooses to deal with it. I don't think "attention" is necessarily harassment, unless it's blatantly sexual. I mean, if the man is your boss, you can't tell him, "Dont' talk to me." He has to talk to you to do his job. If he's hitting on you, though, that's a whole different story.

But in general, I think people are entirely TOO inclined to claim "sexual harassment" on the job when it's not applicable. For instance, the example in the article in the OP is ridiculous. So the guy felt "left out" because the women were passing around penis jokes. Was his job threatened? Was he asked to compromise himself in any way in order to get a promotion? Were the women in his office being promoted ahead of him BECAUSE they were women? THAT'S sexual harassment.

And, for the record, guys sending boob jokes to the other guys in the office: Also NOT sexual harassment.

[alarimer]

184. Yes those jokes ARE harrassment

And absolutely UNACCEPTABLE in any workplace, no matter who is sending them and receiving them. They should not use company equipment and time to send/view them. By doing so, whether or not anyone but the recipient see them, they are contributing to a hostile workplace. It is much better to take a hard line on such things and nip that stuff in the bud before it escalates.

If my employees (I am not anyone's boss at the moment) were swapping such jokes, they would be asked to stop. Where I work it is definitely against policy to send offensive material through the email system. Violations of that policy will get you canned.

[Toasterlad]

208. I Completely Disagree.

Normal people (i.e. people who AREN'T emotionally retarded or people who DO have a functioning sense of humor) are perfectly capable of discussing "blue" topics without immediately going into a gender-fueled rant against the next person with offending genitalia that happens to walk by. Of course it's not appropriate to send penis or boob jokes over office email. It's also not appropriate to send those ungodly chain letters or e-cards or today's Family Circus cartoon on company time with company equipment, but people do it all the time. Part of a HEALTHY working environment is a little downtime, a little humor, a little social interaction. THAT'S what builds teamwork, despite many a corporation's "funny hat day" attempt at the same thing. And the guys having a giggle over a blonde joke, or the girls having a giggle over a dick joke is absolutely not going to hurt ANYBODY, unless some uptight asshole who thinks Garrison Keillor is the absolute height of comedy takes offense and goes crying to HR. Not only is this ludicrous and ANTI-teambuilding, it focuses attention away from the REAL cases of sexual harassment that are going on.

No offense, but bosses like you are the inspiration for those pieces of paper hanging in cubicles all over the world that read "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

P.S. No disrespect to Garrison Keillor was intended.

[Missy Vixen]

196. When we stop to think that a large number of people meet their

spouse or significant other because they've worked together, the problem gets compounded.

>But in general, I think people are entirely TOO inclined to claim "sexual harassment" on the job when it's not applicable.<

I have to agree. There are several on this thread who've mentioned some pretty awful incidents, and I have to say that my heart goes out to them. There is nothing worse than being confronted with someone you work with who's bent on making you uncomfortable at the least. I also think of people I formerly worked with who just could not let it go.

I also think it might be even more tough for men, just because the way things still are between heterosexuals in our society is that men are typically the pursuers, and may not think it's all bad that a woman shows interest in them. At the same time, if they're not interested in return and the woman thinks she should maybe apply a bit more pressure, THAT's where the trouble starts. I apologize to anyone who might think I applied the exceptionally broad brush there.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV,
Julie

[undercutter2006]

161. it's all subjective

Sex is a natural part of our lives. There are also many people who may perceive a sexual topic or a sexual gesture as harrassment, when it would not be interpreted as such by other people. The key here is that the person who perceives being harrassed articulates clearly their displeasure, and their co-workers respect her or his boundaries. Generally people believe they have a right to go to work and do their job without being subjected to any kind of sexual interaction if that's what they want. It's a pretty flawed system, that could be easily compromised or exploited, but it's still better than no rules at all. I guess the answer to your question is that there is no real answer here, except that we live in in a pretty imperfect world.

[frogcycle]

192. gee, someone who wants to actually discuss,

explore the issue, perhaps stimulate constructive dialog!

I am blown away! Don't you know the DU rules? Someone posts something, then you pick a side and chime in with a stream of "is not!" "is so" comments without actually expanding on the thought process!

:)

But seriously:


I have had several instances over my checkered career in which a woman at the workplace made relatively clear that there was "interest." I am married and that was known. The indications vary from just finding a LOT of excuses to stop by and talk about nothing, to "happening" to catch me in a secluded location, standing too close, doing the old eyelash-fluttering routine. Nobody has actually grabbed hold of anything, but I have had the occasional frequent-touch on the shoulder or knee in the course of a conversation. Frankly, I don't rate any of this as harassment. Why? Because I did not respond, and it stopped. I think it was inappropriate, but the identical behavior in a different setting would have been fine. Or even if they did not know I was married, maybe it would have been ok. But not if one had been a supervisor, or in a position to affect management decisions on personnel. The definition that its harassment if it makes you uncomfortable is a bit extreme. I was only uncomfortable in one or two instances where I felt that I needed to send a rejection signal, rather than ignore it until it stopped.

But here's the big-ass difference: I NEVER felt threatened, never wondered if one of these women might stay late some night and accost me in the parking lot or something. I honestly believe that if the tables were turned, a woman enduring what I describe would have naturally felt far more uncomfortable, threatened even, just because of the nature of human society. Many more women have to say "no" a lot more frequently than do men. Period. That backdrop makes it different.

[Missy Vixen]

197. No way!

:hi: A conversation about something substantive? Does that EVER happen? :rofl:

frogcycle, I loved what you had to say.

>I NEVER felt threatened, never wondered if one of these women might stay late some night and accost me in the parking lot or something.<

This is truly the difference between men and women and things that happen in the workplace. The percentage of women who've been sexually attacked is high. Those of us who haven't (knock on wood,) have it drilled into us from birth: If some guy is not taking "no" for an answer, be afraid, be VERY afraid. Let's face it: We've all met couples that ended up together because the guy really cared for her, she was shy or initially uninterested, and he persisted till she agreed to go out with him. Obviously, I'm not a guy. I wonder to myself, though -- what are the signals any guy would pick up on that made him think that maybe just a little bit more persistence was what was needed? Also, what are the things that make guys know they'd better look elsewhere?

I think the women in your case probably figured out that when you didn't react to the "accidental" touches on the knee or shoulder and their attempts to start the conversation, you weren't interested. When I was still dating, I'm sure any guy that thought I was all that would probably need a sign: "Hi. You're nice. Do you like me, too?" When my husband and I went on our first date, he said later that he didn't think I was interested at all. I called him two days later to thank him for such a nice time, and THEN he asked me out again.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV, and my apologies if the thread is drifting off the original topic.

Julie

[frogcycle]

206. just to be clear

some were clearly not 'accidental' touches - stayed there too long, while making eye contact...

the ones that can be passed off as accidental are easy to just not react to. But I really don't consider the others harassment if done only once. But as I said, and you concurred, the backdrop of experience and training makes it a lot easier for a guy to shrug it off - just be flattered and not worry about it.

as to your question - in my case it was always the one-strike rule. But then I was a painfully shy teenager deathly afraid of rejection or, worse yet, ridicule. I got married at 20 and since then haven't tested the process of making overtures. I continue to be paranoid of seeming to be overstepping. I HAVE sort of stumbled into someone responding when I really WAS just being friendly.

[noamnety]

69. This is pretty interesting to me:

Thomas, who works in academia but didn’t want his full name used, found himself in an office made up of mainly women who would routinely share and copy each other emailed jokes and emails about men. A few, he adds, “made fun of men’s unique anatomy, if you know what I mean.” The behavior, he says, made him feel isolated. When he finally addressed the matter with the women in the office, “the women were stunned, generally with a ‘You’ve got to be kidding,’ kind of attitude. And they kept doing it.”

For the men who view this as harassment, how do you view similar comments on DU aimed at women's bodies? Do you speak out against it?
When a woman here speaks out against it, do you chime with support, or ridicule her?

(Not talking about the stalking here, or other predatory behavior, but just what's described in the excerpt I quoted.)

[RedCappedBandit]

100. I, for one, would *never* "make fun" of one's anatomy

and I would defend the victim of such cruelty.

[stevedeshazer]

152. Your point is well made

As you know, I made a joke about a woman to which you objected a couple of days ago.

Based on what I've seen here, I've come around to your point of view.

Thanks for challenging me. While I think you could have done a better job explaining your objection at the time, in this context I get it and had a sort of epiphany, if you will.

Sorry to have offended you in the first place. I can see you meant well.

It looks like we all have a long way to go on this particular subject.

[undercutter2006]

163. very good point

except that is nothing like your working environment where you are forced to physically interact with persons that persist on making uncomforatble observations about people's 'anatomy'. If the original post was about an incident of internet harrassment of a male on this site, you might have a leg to stand on, though. But you don't.

[noamnety]

165. Questions for you

Do you think an environment where jokes are constantly made about men's anatomy (multiple times, daily) could constitute a hostile environment for men?

Do you think an environment where jokes are constantly made about women's anatomy (multiple times, daily) could constitute a hostile environment for women?

I'm not asking whether it's legal, just whether or not you think it could be considered a hostile environment.

[undercutter2006]

173. ahh

I think I know what you are trying to say. Our culture, and this message board as a snapshot of it, is infinitely more likely to ridicule female characteristics than male ones. It's not fair and it's not nice. On the other hand, women constitute approximately 51% of the voting public right now, so if that affected them that much, we should have seen some very major changes right now, no? One possibility is that women treat all these prejudices and stereotypes against women as a silly inconvenience rather than a major threat to their well being. Also, gender is only a part of your identity. If you identify yourself primarily though how many money-making abilities do you have, how do you comply with the accepted beauty standard, how well can you articulate yourself, if you think about yourself as a part of some other group (teacher, soldier, manager, party person, family member) first, and your gender comes second to all that, then why should you terribly care if you are facing more discrimination in certain situations because of your gender?

But yes, I am getting way off topic here. The situation is hostile to those women (or men who know such women) who are hurt by jokes about female's anatomy on this site. The sad part is that its all about numbers. So you publically complaining about this shit definitely helps. Grassroot effort baby !!! The question is do you have much grassroot left?

And like I said before, it's not about some 'environment'. Anybody can walk away from a stupid ass topic that disturbs them on a message board that they don't have to read to make a living. What we are talking about here is harrassment at work, where you are captive and left at the mercy of your supervisor, and it's always a good thing to see women and men fight for their right to be treated fairly at work.

[noamnety]

Yep, I think you got what I was saying.

I don't see your question as off-topic at all, by the way.

"If you identify yourself primarily though how many money-making abilities do you have, how do you comply with the accepted beauty standard, how well can you articulate yourself, if you think about yourself as a part of some other group (teacher, soldier, manager, party person, family member) first, and your gender comes second to all that, then why should you terribly care if you are facing more discrimination in certain situations because of your gender?"

You hit on an important point there - our money making abilities are tied to how we comply with accepted beauty standards, which is infinitely wrapped up in gender, and the cultural tendency to judge women negatively. All the derogatory comments about women, the focus on their appearance, and the tendency that our culture (and this message board as a snapshop - I like that) has to discuss women as sexualized objects, it all affects what happens when we go on job interviews, what happens within our marriages, how we're treated as soldiers. We're perceived as less serious because we're women. In the same way that people with "black" sounding names are advised to use just a first initial and last name on a resume in order to avoid prejudice, women sometimes are advised to do the same thing.

A friend sent me a link recently to an article about orchestras switching to blind auditions. Women are hired in at significantly higher rates if everyone auditions behind a screen, rather than letting the panel find out they're female. They are advised to take off their shoes before walking to their seat, because if the panel can hear the click of a female shoe, they're less likely to get hired. That's how strong the anti-woman sentiment is in this country, even in people who don't think they have prejudices.

Me, personally, I am capable of making money when I feel like it, which isn't always. I was a GS-13, but I walked away from that job. I can be fairly articulate when I set my mind to it - I used to fly to the Pentagon to give briefings, regularly. But - this is the cultural thing - there were also trips I didn't make, even though I was clearly the best qualified within my office. My boss wouldn't send me, telling me specifically that certain audiences wouldn't take me seriously because I am female. If he was pitching a vehicle to special forces, for instance, he knew he had to send a man - even though the man had never served in the military, and I had. Nothing out of my mouth would have merit in that meeting. Technically, that's illegal, but I knew it was also true, and it doesn't make sense for me to jeopardize the funding of my own program by pushing the issue.

Also there were times when I was sent to do a particular job like getting a signature from someone high up in the pentagon, where my qualifications weren't necessary, but I was told to wear a particular short skirt and not come home til it was signed. Also illegal. But understood as the easiest way to get things done.

That's the reason I complain so much about the sexual harassment here. It's not that I'm actually offended by any individual joke itself. It's that the open acceptance and continual portrayal of women as primarily sexualized objects promotes a culture where it's considered normal for women to be directly harassed on the street, assaulted, devalued, degraded and discriminated against in work, and for many, to live in poverty because they are women.

I don't think voting blocs are going to change that - there's no legislation you can pass that's going to make people not be prejudiced.

[undercutter2006]

185. hur

That's funny. The last GS-13 I met at my unit was the area's safety officer, I had to constantly throw him off sent by scheduling some bogus safety briefings and additional duty appointments.

I'm afraid I am not that well qualified to talk about this subject in depth after all, considering I am a guy, I just lack the necessary frame of reference. I do wonder though, what would I do if I were a woman, would all these silly games that society expects women to play not affect me as much, or would it irritate me to the point of becoming what is known as a 'femi-nazi'. Anyway I am truly sorry for some of your experience with the military, and as someone who has a moderate position of authority in the government, I can give you my assurance that I will never tolerate those kind of behaviors, for what it's worth. What I was saying before though, and what I really don't understand, is that if women face that much discrimination culturally, politically, and professionally, why isn't there much more organized outrcy against this type of shit. Feminists have been saying exactly the same things for decades, and they have never been able to construct a power base necessary to effect any real change in our society (unlike what conservatives say about feminist agenda).

[uppityperson]

70. harrasment is harrasment. eom

[The Stranger]

73. Some of the posts on this thread are unfuckingbelievable.

Joking about sexual harrassment on DU? Like some kind of faux-macho locker room? Did I accidentally log onto the freepworld board?

Holy shit.

[EFerrari]

77. No kidding.

:wtf:

[cherokeeprogressive]

75. Harrassment is Harrassment. It doesn't matter who is the "er" or who is the "ee".

It's wrong. ARGUE WITH THAT. Upthread, someone responded with "Cry me a fucking river" after another poster detailed the kind of harrassment and stalking he had been subjected to. Sexual harrassment is the same as bullying in my book. Some fucked up people bully others because they know they can get away with it, mostly because they believe that the bullied won't/can't do anything about it. I know, because I have personal experience with bullying. In elementary school (oh so long ago), a kid in the next grade picked me (why, I never knew) as the pussy whose lunch money he would take every day. He was bigger and stronger than me. I gave up my lunch money in shame for the whole of my fifth grade year. I got him back (the details of how aren't important in this forum), when I finally decided to stand up for myself. When I did, I found out that he wasn't so bad and it was HIM who went home crying that day. The empowerment I felt after standing up for myself changed my life in so many ways I can't count.

Harrassment is Harrassment. It doesn't know gender, race, size, or strength. It's just harrassment. And it's wrong. Stating in a discussion that women have been harrassed since time began so men should put up with it now is the equivelant of the childish "I know you are, but what am I?" statement heard on playgrounds the world over.

I'm going to make a statement here that will surely get me flamed, ignored (by those who don't have me on ignore already), and possibly even tombstoned:

It's a WOMAN'S WORLD. How does that statement make you feel? Are you laughing? Angry? Let me tell you why I'd make a statement so outrageous as that...

There are more females of voting age in this country than there are males. No lightbulb yet? Let me continue... If WOMEN banded together, and got over their OWN differences, they could run for and get elected to EVERY elective office in this country, and there is NOT ONE THING that men could do about it. Don't believe me? Go back and read the first sentence in this paragraph once more. I for one would WELCOME the end of patriarchal rule in the world. It hasn't worked.

Saying that men shouldn't feel indignant about being harrassed in the workplace because WOMEN have been harrassed at the hands of men is a notion I CANNOT WRAP MY SIMPLE MALE MIND AROUND.

[Christian30]

78. Men also get sexually harrassed by MEN

it happens pretty frequently both among straight men and between gay men. I've seen it plenty of times. For those of you who don't know, sexual harassment is based on two criteria: a power dynamic (e.g. "sleep with me and you'll get promoted") and a hostile work environment (e.g. pictures of naked persons and constant needling in an office). And both of these happen to men, though not as frequently as women. As someone who's been harassed by gay men and straight men, it's really not that funny.

[cherokeeprogressive]

79. And you don't hear me laughing. n/t

[raccoon]

115. You must be living on a different planet, then.

"It's a WOMAN'S WORLD. "

Even today, the vast majority of Congresscritters are male. And governors. And the US has never had a female president or veep.

[DeSwiss]

81. This has been...

...one of the most interesting threads I've ever posted.

And for the record, I think that harassment is harassment. Whomever does it. Here sexual domination and/or favors is the object instead of lunch money or promotions or having to pay for protection. Or worse in my view, it's a means of achieving feelings of superiority by causing pain in others, and alternately assuaging the perpetrator's own inadequacies. Simply put, harassers are bullies. It is the use of one's power (whether physical or hierarchical), to gain what one wants from someone, by force, threat of force or misuse of authority. Sexual harassment happens mostly to women, we all know this. Most women must contend with it in its various forms almost everyday.

All harassment is wrong. Period.

DeSwiss :)

[Tektonik]

83. Ugh

So many disgusting posts in this thread.

[dave29]

84. sexual harrasment is wrong in all of it's forms. Period.

n/t

[Tektonik]

89. it's alarming to see so many people not understand such a basic concept

n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

92. I generally don't mind sexual advances from men or women

But I'll admit that I've never had to deal with them at work and I'd imagine that they could be distracting.

[Behind the Aegis]

94. Some very disturbing responses in this thread.

"Poor widdle men getting harassed" is not a appropriate response to male harassment!

"Women get harassed more" is not a legitimate response to men being harassed. While true, it's not a competition. Violating anyone's personal space is an issue.

"I'd love if women grabbed my ass" is not an appropriate response to male harassment. It's great you like women grabbing your junk, but it doesn't mean that others should have to endure it.

I also noticed some found the harassment more serious when it was male-on-male, so not only are we treated to sexist double standards, but homophobia was dabbed in as well. Bravo! :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. Best Post In The Thread

eom

[AngryAmish]

125. POD

[SayWhatYo]

132. Well I suppose...

The next time a story about a woman being sexually harassed comes up, then someone could try using those lines.... "poor little woman getting harassed? waaah somebody call the waaambulance" I doubt that would go over too well, but it would be interesting to see the responses from those who made those statements here.

[lukasahero]

162. If you have any outrage to spare

perhaps you could voice it over here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1297424

[Behind the Aegis]

180. I did.

Glad I could voice my opinion there as well.

[undercutter2006]

164. damn

you just broke it down

[RedCappedBandit]

95. It is disturbing to see so called liberals..

telling men to "suck it up"

Exactly how does the fact that women appear to be harassed more often than men have any impact on the severity of the issue illustrated in the OP?

Telling guys to "suck it up" sounds like something the spoiled brat * would say.

[Imagevision]

101. The last time a woman demanded I get down on my knee's I stayed down there and

got a really cool trip to Maui... I'm gonna right a book, (20%!!)

[Ariana Celeste]

102. I cannot believe some of the responses here.

Sexual harassment, in any form, against any person & by any person, is WRONG.

I don't care what gender or race is involved.

Jesus Christ.

[LeftishBrit]

105. I fully agree!

Just because men are MORE LIKELY to sexually harrass women than the other way around, doesn't mean that it's acceptable for anyone to harrass anyone.

BTW, I'm female.

[buddhamama]

106. thank you.

i am in complete agreement. :)

[PVnRT]

142. I would share that sentiment, but this IS GD

No comments made in this forum surprise me anymore.

I guess we should just ignore everything that does happen frequently in this country, since it's clearly not important.

[NewJeffCT]

109. I worked for a large corporation that had two major incidents in the 90s

Both were at off-site company functions - one was a weekend ski trip and the other was a department picnic.

On the first one, it had previously been a "guy's weekend" sort of thing and it was the first time women had come on the trip. Not sure why women had never gone before, but it seems like a few of the guys got out of hand. It ended up that the two guys responsible for the actual harrassment were suspended for 30 days, but the two senior VPs who were in charge of the event were both fired.

A year or two later, there was a company picnic in the summer. There was some drinking involved and a woman ended up pulling down a guy's bathing suit. I think she was also fired, but my memory is a bit hazy.

Both incidents made The Hartford Courant. I think afterwards, the company did not allow any sort of off-site activities like this to be announced via company email.

[Progressive_In_NC]

130. We have an interesting dynamic at our office

We have a situation here at the office where there is an unattractive guy (short, bald and dumpy but a heckuva Project Manager and person) who insists on being friendly with our receptionist and one of the project managers (both attractive late 20's women). He doesn't touch them, he doesn't ask them out, he just talks to them a lot.

They are both clearly uncomfortable with it and complain about it incessantly whenever he's not around, but I don't think that he's harassing them.

The flip side of that is that a VP co-worker of mine is a former NFL backup QB (6'5" 240 and nice looking according to the ladies in the office), and the same two women let him put his hands all over them(shoulder rubs, small of the back, arm rubs, top of leg etc. etc.) and they reciprocate with a lot of flirting and hand touching of their own (all three are married to other folks btw).

I guess it's all perspective and whether or not you desire the attention.

[SayWhatYo]

137. question about the project manager situation...

Do the two women tell the guy to stop talking to them? I mean, if it makes them that uncomfortable, then they should feel ok about telling him to back off.... If not, then it should sounds like snobbery on their part...

In the past I came across many guys(and women) who like to talk talk talk... and who just kind of bug me... I'm a guy, so it's not my first thought that they are trying to get in my pants or something... ummm, I just figure they are annoying over-friendly. I wouldn't tell them to screw-off, because that would be rude of me and very snobbish... I'm not sure what my point is, but I'm sure I have on in there some where.

[Progressive_In_NC]

140. So far they haven't said anything

One of the wierdest dynamics I've ever seen. They guy is annoying like that though, he talks about his wife and kids and hobbies mostly and he talks a lot.

I wonder if they told him to just stop talking to them if he would? it definately would stop the two of them coming to me to complain about him which would be just fine by me. I think he's prpbably just oblivious but I'm not good at reading intentions sometimes so I'm not really sure.

[troubleinwinter]

153. "clearly uncomfortable with it and complain about it incessantly"

Did you read what you wrote? You wonder if "they told him to just stop talking to them". YOU are a supervisor? How did you get that position?

Why not address ALL the employees and tell them that "We are here to work, we are not a social organization. Brief greetings and pleasantries are appropriate, but NO ONE should be hanging around ANYONE'S desk yacking. We have WORK to do."

Get a spine and become a responsible supervisor. The women should not have to put up with friendliness that they do not welcome, nor should you be tolerating backrubs to an NFL guy.

You don't have to "read intentions". You should stop ignoring complaints and take responsibility to stop all of this bullshit, whether from the women or the 'annoying' man.

YOU need to set expectations for professional behavior by ALL of the employees, for the safety, comfort and well-being of all employees and the company.

[noamnety]

183. did I miss a post?

I didn't see where Progressive_In_NC declared themselves to be a supervisor.

[troubleinwinter]

188. You are right. I apologize to Progressive_In_NC.

I made an inference that was inappropriate.

[noamnety]

190. No problem, we've probably all done that. I have.

If they were a supervisor, it would have been a most appropriate rant. :)

[Progressive_In_NC]

191. The problem is I'm not a supervisor.....

In a consulting environment it's all pretty flat. We are all equals with one thing to offer the company, our billable time. The VPs and Partners need to set that example, but they also need to view it as a problem. I don't think that's happening right now to be honest.

[NewJeffCT]

144. There was an episode of Ally McBeal

several years back that reminds me of your office, though Ally McBeal took things to the extreme. But, there was a new young woman in the law office that was so hot that all the men in the office would practically stop & drool at her - so, the women of the office sued the hot young woman for sexual harrassment because she had created the uncomfortable environment for the other women.

But, I've seen it before, in real life. The attractive new woman in the office always seems to have men floating around her cubicle trying to chat with her - even if they're just being friendly, it's amazing that these guys elected to be friendly with the woman that worked as a bikini model in college, as opposed to the other new woman, who was maybe, well, frumpy looking.

[troubleinwinter]

154. Put your foot down or make a phone call.

"They are both clearly uncomfortable with it and complain about it incessantly..."

"...put his hands all over them(shoulder rubs, small of the back, arm rubs, top of leg etc. etc.) and they reciprocate with a lot of flirting and hand touching of their own"

If you cannot put your foot down regarding this sort of behavior by firmly explaining that this is a WORKPLACE, I want your resignation on my desk in the morning.

If you need some help, call your liability insurance company and read your post to them. Really. Call them. You'll be amazed.

[jcrew2001]

178. Haha, either ban ugly people from offices

or ban the good-looking people. Isn't there always that one hot girl or guy that always gets the attention, and can do no wrong. But the ugly co-worker will get all the complaints.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

205. How is THAT going on?

Jeesus.......even when I've worked around horny teenagers I didn't see them massaging one another on the job.

[IEatskMeKucinich]

112. I have never heard of any harassment at my company

I'd like to acknowledge all victims and wish the best for them, regardless of their gender.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. After Reading Some Of These Responses I Had To Check The Address Bar To See If I Was At The Right

Site

[lapislzi]

114. What is with you people?

Just because sexual harassment happens less frequently to men doesn't mean it's not to be taken seriously. A close friend experienced this at work and his work life was very unpleasant until the harasser left the company.

Get a grip. This can happen to anyone. Gender isn't the issue.

[hiaasenrocks]

120. This thread goes to show that this issue is a political football.

And when one team loses possession for a minute, look out!

[lapislzi]

129. Disagree...this is pointlessly divisive

I come to DU to learn from others, and when I can, to inform others. The level of dumbassery on this thread is mind-boggling. Sure, sexual harassment is a topic for discussion because it goes to the larger issue of gender-based discrimination, but that's the political football. Not whether or not men are sexually harassed by female co-workers, or how this issue is perceived by the DU community. It really distresses me when people's perceptions are ridiculed.

Having a closed mind about an issue is the antithesis of a progressive mindset.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. According To Some Posters

Man on woman harassment bad...

Man on man harassment bad...

Woman on man harassment good...

[SayWhatYo]

133. To be fair...

They are not saying that woman on man harassment is good. They are just saying that it should be ignored, because man on woman harassment exists and is worse.... and in some cases, that all men deserve it because other men have harassed women in the past.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. I Think What They Are Saying Is Woman-Man Harassment Is "Fun"

Any unwanted sexual attention is not fun...

[gollygee]

136. That's not what I think

The issue is that man on woman harassment is a HUGE problem. Talk to the women you know - you might be shocked by how man women have been sexually harassed on the job. I don't know a percentage but I don't doubt if it's something like a third to a half or something have at some point in their careers had some level of sexual harassment. At least it seems to be that prevalent among people I know.

Yes there are occasionally cases where men are harassed by women, and those cases should be treated exactly the same as the cases where men harass women because it is just as bad.

What gets me is that sexual harassment in general, which is mainly harassment of women by men, doesn't get a lot of attention. But then this story comes out that men get harassed too on occasion, and that is a BIG DEAL. It isn't this specific situation or story, it's more of an thing I see overall - problems women commonly face aren't given much attention, but then a man has the same problem and all of a sudden there's a lot of attention.

[undercutter2006]

168. no

that's because all sexual harrassment laws are assumed to address the situation of men harrassing women, so when there is a case to prove otherwise, of course it's a big deal. it's like if a man gave birth to a baby, would you say 'but women have been doing that for centuries!'

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

201. Are you kidding me?

Do you really want to do a Google search on the comparitive number of articles regarding men harrassing women as opposed to women harassing men stories and back that up?

What makes the story unique and interesting IS that fact that it hasn't been talked about as much in the media. (And I'm more than willing to concede it's because it doesn't happen as much).

My problem is, it exists, it should be talked about in the same manner of respect as nay other case of harassment/bigotry.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

143. boohoo

[TrogL]

146. There's also male sexual harassment of males

Primarily because they're perceived as not 'macho' enough.

I've had to report several co-workers on sexual harassment for emailed 'joke of the day' stuff.

[noamnety]

147. Anyone else notice the statistics in the article focus on the victim?

This is one of the patterns I find particular frustrating when talking about sexual assault. So often women complain about its pervasive nature, and they get a response from someone reminding them that "it happens to men, too."

Yes, it does. It absolutely happens to men, too. And it's equally bad, on a personal level, when it does.

When we keep the focus on the victims, what happens is that we never address the cause of the problem. Why aren't we talking about what percent of abusers are men vs. women? When we hear the "it happens to men, too" we often devolve into a discussion of whether women can rape men, whether it's as bad when they do it, and so forth. As if women are the primary people committing those crimes against men.

Most perpetrators of sexual violence are men. Among acts of SV committed against women since the age of 18, 100% of rapes, 92% of physical assaults, and 97% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men. SV against men is also mainly male violence: 70% of rapes, 86% of physical assaults, and 65% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men (Tjaden and Thoennes 2000).

If roughly 85% of sexual violence is being committed by men, we ought to be focusing on what in our culture contributes to male violence, and what can be done about it. If 85% of car accidents were caused by faulty steering columns, we'd be focusing our efforts on that, right?

Men could choose to address the issue by engaging in a contest of who is victimized more (and I'll tell you right now the women would win that contest, hands down). But if they really want to address violence against men, if it's something that really concerns them, they ought to be speaking out against ALL messages that equate masculinity and sex with aggression and violence.

[MrSlayer]

151. I don't know any guy who would be upset by this.

It seems a really strange thing to be bothered by to me. But, I'm not that dude, everyone is different.

[stevedeshazer]

156. Did you even bother to read the thread?

You just met that guy.

[jcrew2001]

177. Do you work in an office full of woman?

It may sound great at first, but you're spending almost 24/7 with these women and they eventually become your platonic wives - you here all of their complaining and you feel emasculated half the time.

i've got to find a new job, maybe i'll do construction.

[MrSlayer]

207. No, I don't.

I don't work in an office at all, I'm a construction worker. I could never work white collar, not cut out for it. Too many rules and dress codes and other bullshit.

Thinking about it, I'd have to say that being sexually harrassed by certain women would probably not be all that great of an experience.

[sniffa]

155. is this onLy in the hetro sense?

[noamnety]

171. There was a study I saw earlier today

where they showed tapes of harassment to men and women. The videos portrayed every combo of genders in the scenarios.

What they found:

Women and men identified male-perp/female victim harassment equally (they both recognized it as harassment). (82-84% saw it as harassment.)
The women were 10% more likely to identify women perp/male victim scenarios as harassment.
Men were 6% more likely than women to view male perp/male victim scenarios as harassment.
Men were 24% less likely to identify women perp/women victim scenarios as harassment.

... men’s ratings of the degree to which the female perpetrator’s behavior was sexually harassing or inappropriate when she was propositioning another female were lower than women’s ratings of the same situation. In fact, men did not find that situation to be sexually harassing or socially inappropriate as evidenced by a mean below the midpoint of the scale.

Finally, consistent with the third hypothesis, men and women found same gender scenarios, respective to their own gender, to be more harassing. Therefore, participant responses to the interactions presented in the current research match participant anticipated responses in previous research. Whitley (1988) found that heterosexual men and women anticipated feeling highly negative if sexually harassed by a person of the same gender. The reasons for more negative responses remain unclear. It is likely that homophobia, or uncomfortable feelings regarding gay/lesbian/bisexual behavior, may in part influence a person’s reactions to
same gender sexual harassment."

http://murphylibrary.uwlax.edu/digital/jur/1999/cramer-kellogg.pdf

[Lerkfish]

159. I was a male sexually harrassed by a female supervisor

and encountered much of the insensitive reactions I see exhibited in this thread.

FWIW, this happened in 1980, so it was definitely not on the radar of most people.

I was a new employee, happily married, and the supervisor calls me into her office, closes the door, doesn't let me sit down, and keeps staring at my crotch while making suggestive remarks. I didn't know how to react to it. It definitely was very creepy. This supervisor was second in command in the company, and several levels above me. I did not have any chance to do anything about it nor would any listen or believe me, so I kept quiet.

It wasn't until a poker game with a bunch of other employees that they asked if I had been felt up yet by the supervisor. Several employees had been ogled, a few actually groped. One employee and her went on a business trip and when they got to the hotel, she had only booked one room with one bed. She told him, well, I guess we'll be sleeping together, and he replied "I guess I'm sleeping in the car" which he did...being a married man.

Just because I was harrassed as a man does not excuse, nor make up for, nor balances the scales for the countless women who have been harrassed. It does, however, enlighten me as to how uncomfortable and creepy the feeling is to be harrassed, and makes me all the more sensitive to others who have been.

I know that many of you will jeer and belittle me for posting this, but I don't care. I was the target of unwanted advances from a superior and was unable to do anything about it.

thanks for listening.

[lukasahero]

160. Anyone who would jeer or belittle you for this post

is a first class asshole. I understand the point some are trying to make about how when it happens to a man, it's news, when it happens to a woman, it's life. But to me, when it happens to anyone, it's wrong.

Sorry you know what it feels like. :hug:

[Lerkfish]

170. yeah, no one should have to feel that way.

period.
thanks for the kind post.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

200. The bullies won't......

They'll just avoid stories like this and act like assholes elswhere.

[stevedeshazer]

169. Great post

I didn't want to go into the detail you did regarding my situation, but your story is quite similar to mine and more recent, and I thank you for sharing it.

[Lerkfish]

172. I"m sorry you had to go through anything similar

FWIW, I did not tell my wife for a long time because I didn't know how she would take it. Luckily the poker game was at my house so she found out about the others the same time she found out about me, so it was all ok.

I worried if I told her, she'd think I was trying to cover up something I initiated.

[Alexander]

167. Didn't know there were so many bitter man-haters at DU...

But I guess to some people, two wrongs really do make a right.

[Matsubara]

175. Volcanoes, Earthquakes, Space Shuttle Explosions - none of them funny, but...

...people still joke about them.

In real workplaces, people joke around and most people are not so damn serious.

If I got e-mails making jokes about men's anatomy from female colleagues, I'd just laugh it off.


But if a co-worker was touching me or demanding attention that I didn't want to give, I'd complain.

Overall, I think our society has become way too serious and picky about the occasional ribald joke between co-workers (it's different, though, when the joke is at one co-worker's expense, or ABOUT a specific co-worker)

I know I'm probbably in the minority on this, but I think people need to lighten up overall, but hjave zero tolerance for genine harrassment.

[jcrew2001]

176. I have a lot of women in my office as well

and i think its just the locker-room mentality - both the guys locker-room and the girls locker-room. Any time there is an overwhelming number of guys or girls in one place, there is less caution against being insensitive to the other gender.

My job's okay, but being a guy and rooming with guys during and after college, I've never spent much time around large groups of girls, so the "Girl Talk" at the office from some girls is annoying and irritating, and somewhat uncomfortable. If I cared more about my job, I could be inclined to complain, but I would suggest to all the guys, get a better paying job around less girls if it bothers you so much. That's what I intend to do.

[sampsonblk]

179. The sexual harassment industry is way out of hand-nt

[frogcycle]

181. what a bunch of crap

oh, I get it that I don't want to have my promotion contingent on 'servicing' the boss, but the babble about the behavior being just as damaging to men... nahhh

I don't believe for one second that it would be as intimidating to me to be in a roomful of women leering at me as it would be for a woman being leered at by a roomful of men.

Just not the same.

No way.

[jcrew2001]

186. So have you spent months with a room full of women complaining

and whining about their personal lives? Trust me, its very emasculating.

But don't take my word for it, feel free to get a job anywhere there's a lot of women. On the down-side , women tend to get paid less than guys - maybe thats why my job sucks.

[frogcycle]

187. talk about getting off topic...

[Louie the XIV]

189. If people are being harassed and made to feel uncomfortable at work

I don't see what their sex has to do with anything. The idea that woman are not capable of being as threatening or obnoxious is ridiculous, spend some time with female adolescents and you will see that they are far crueler then their male counterparts.

[NaturalHigh]

202. According to some here...

That doesn't matter because men are such pigs. Until men stop being pigs, women can do whatever they want. Makes no sense to me either. :shrug:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

199. Imagine an article about woman on woman sexual harassment posted here

Some DU'ers were implode not knowing which "side" to take.

[EstimatedProphet]

203. No, it isn't a joke

It's ALWAYS wrong.