China executes former head of food and drug safety...

[blitzen]

no hearings, no lengthy impeachment trial....just straight to execution


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19686498/


BEIJING - China on Tuesday executed the former head of its food and drug watchdog who had become a symbol of the country’s wide-ranging problems on product safety.

Zheng Xiaoyu’s execution was confirmed by State Food and Drug Administration spokeswoman Yan Jianyang at a news conference held to highlight efforts to improve China’s track record on food and drug safety.

[lligrd]

1. And * Gives His Screw Ups A Medal Instead

I guess it all depends who you work for.

[sandnsea]

2. OMG, that's not helpful

Who will talk about problems if they're worried someone might get executed. This was a terrible decision. A real lack of leadership by Bush that he let this happen with no fight at all.

[WCGreen]

11. And how was Bush involved in China executing someone...

Jesus, the guy has done a whole lot of crap but you can't lay the execution of a Chinese Bureaucrat at his feet...

Jeez, beside that, China has far more executions than any other country in the world...

[sandnsea]

12. I didn't say he was

Before I respond, please indicate where I laid the execution at Bush's feet. Specifically.

[WCGreen]

13. Excuse me....

But what does this mean...

" real lack of leadership by Bush that he let this happen with no fight at all."

Why is that a lack of leadership....

Do you think the Chinese really give a shit what Bush has to say when they literally execute thousands of people a year...

[sandnsea]

14. Directly related to unsafe imports

Which is directly related to trade.

If we want our products to be safe, we have to insist their justice system is equipped to encourage compliance. Executing people is the exact opposite way to get to compliance. Bush didn't say a word, he has no international standing to do much of anything to improve the product safety procedures in China. Even though we have a moratorium on food imports. That's how pathetic he is.

[bdamomma]

34. oh please do not give * any ideas huh?

[Kagemusha]

3. He had a criminal trial. I see no reason to misrepresent it

No, he didn't get hearings or impeachment - Zheng Xiaoyu was not a serving head of state. You write as if that should make no difference.

[blitzen]

7. hey, i was jokingly referring to an imaginary scenario involving

the current state of affairs in the US. I didn't mean to pass judgment on China's action.

[oldtime dfl_er]

4. Pretty harsh

Tell me again how this country got the Olympics? I've been to Beijing - recently - and I wouldn't send an athlete into that environment, just based on the pollution, let alone the human rights situation.


http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/3266072

[pansypoo53219]

46. lots of p[eople have DIED because of this

and don't forget all them animals. this could destroy the chinese economy. for this i think death maybe sends a very strong message. just hope those people who were enslaving people in that recent case get the same.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Ahh, government without parties, hearings, subpoenas, investigations, trials,

or separation of powers.

It's fast. Seems many here want governing in America to happen just as fast.

Thank God it doesn't.

[Trajan]

6. China is a brutal dictatorship ....

And looks more and more like a crime family every moment ....

No wonder the repuke CEO's just fucking adore them .... CHEAP slave labor, no free speech, and immediate capital punishment, without legal recourse .....

They dont bother with that 'Habeas Corpus' crap either .... eh, Mr. pResident ? ...

But hey: they make them cool plastic toys you can get with every Happy Meal ..... only costs 2 Cents when little chinese kids make them ....

[Kagemusha]

8. So um let me get this straight... you think the guy's innocent of the charges?

He didn't take bribes to approve unsafe medicine and a bunch of innocent people didn't die as a direct result? And a sham trial convicted him of these false charges?

Anyone else can answer too - I just am trying to state as plainly as I can why I'm somewhat beside myself at the "without legal recourse" part.

[Trajan]

9. I do NOT approve of capital punishment .... by ANY state ....

And certainly; any child of the Enlightenment understands that fast trials rarely allow justice to really exist .....

What if they are wrong ? ... What if he is a scapegoat ? .... What if YOU are wrong about this ? .... What if it was a sham trial ? .... Do you REALLY know ?

In any case: Wasn't there enough room at the prison to hold him for the length of a decent, reasonable sentence ? ... or were they liable to release him early for lack of space ? .... Killing him is better, just to be sure ?

Do you always approve of such 'swift justice' ? .... Is it always justified ? .... usually ? .... sometimes ? ...... Can you tell the difference from 8000 miles ? .... Is it THAT clear to you ?

As much as I detest his 'approval' of these materials ... I GREATLY GREATLY doubt the charge is worthy of state killing .....

Unless, of course, you approve of the state killing human beings in the name of 'swift justice' ....

I can sleep soundly knowing I did not kill another human being that could have been housed in a lock up for a reasonable term, or set free when his charges are found to be false .....

I can sleep soundly knowing I didn't kill some daughter's father ..... or some mother's son ..... for nothing .....

[Kagemusha]

10. I can sympathize with a lot of your post, but not one part in particular.

That part would be...

"As much as I detest his 'approval' of these materials ... I GREATLY GREATLY doubt the charge is worthy of state killing ....."

Um. No.

Taking bribes and putting poison on the market labeled as medicine that ends up killing people, and while I didn't see details of it, let's just broadly assume that it may include children, okay? If not in this case, certainly in others like the poison in toothpaste that killed a whole bunch of kids in Panama. So this is the charge they actually got him on, not necessarily, by a longshot, all that he was guilty of. So OK.

So we can pretty safely say that he was accused and convicted of taking bribes to allow poisonous medicine onto the marketplace which directly led to the deaths of a whole bunch of little kids.

I can think of few charges more worthy of state killing than this. Of the numerous challenges to why this execution should not have taken place, I do not consider the gravity of the charges to be anywhere near as valid as the others. What he was accused and convicted of doing is evil, evil stuff. Were I able to know with certainty that he was guilty of such charges, I would rest very easily about his being executed. Whatever mercy he might have received would be a matter of generosity on the part of the state, not anything he would have personally deserved.

[sandnsea]

15. It doesn't prevent future hazards

We want them to improve their safety standards. You don't do that by terrorizing everybody into silence. Nobody will ever say a word about toxins if they're afraid people are going to be executed.

[Kagemusha]

16. By people, do you mean themselves, or others?

It's not the point I was trying to argue but... since you are raising it, cooperating with the state is generally a good way not to get executed. Or do you mean no one will tattletale on people responsible for the deaths of little kids through licensing literal poison as legal drugs if they think the guilty parties might suffer consequences for it? As opposed to the guilty parties not suffering consequences and being in a position to exact vengeance upon the "traitors" who tried and failed to get them in trouble with the government? I'm wondering where the deterrence really comes from here.

[sandnsea]

17. Fear paralyzes

The last 6 years ought to have shown you that beyond all doubt. They obviously don't have a rational or fair system in China, why would people cooperate with executions hanging over their heads.

In most places, talking to the goverment is a sure method of making problems for yourself and is only done when there aren't any other options. And that's with good justice systems, like ours.

[Kagemusha]

19. I don't get it. You make an example of the guy at the very top, and it's bad?

What should they have done instead, kept the crook in like Alberto Gonzales?

[sandnsea]

21. It's sad you don't understand

And most of the rest of the industrial world does. It's what's wrong with this country.

If Bush started shoving through executions of all Democrats, maybe you'd get it then.

[Kagemusha]

28. I understand the "it's barbaric" argument a lot more.

This 'but it paralyzes with fear' business... ... Look, I don't see what sort of long line of dissidents prepared to talk that was shut up by this execution existed. I don't see it. I hope the next time someone is offered a bribe to let poison go on the market to kill little kids, the person being offered the bribe is paralyzed with fear of accepting the bribe and walks the hell away. That hope, I realize, is likely to be in vain... but that has nothing to do with executions or lack thereof. The best argument against them is that they don't change anything and are wasted.

[sandnsea]

47. Fear doesn't stifle dissent?

You don't believe that, are you serious?

You have no idea whether there is a line of people who know what's going on in those factories or not. With execution hanging over their heads, you never will know, that's the real danger.

[marions ghost]

30. you do make a good point Kagemusha

that this creation of poisonous consumer products MUST be seen as a heinous crime. To doubt the charge is "worthy" to warrant severe punishment is a common attitude towards white collar criminals. Even very intelligent people do NOT always see that deliberate decisions leading to the deaths of others is the same as direct acts of violence.

Where I differ from you Kagemusha, is that I don't agree with the death penalty for any crime, but that's another matter. There can be some very miserable forms of existence in prison, sometimes a fate worse that death, if sentences are stiff enough. But sentences are never stiff enough for white collar criminals, because they are successfully painted as "less dangerous to society." Actually an argument can be made for the fact that they are much MORE dangerous.

The crimes of businessmen (including politicians) have got to be seen as EQUIVALENT in every way to the taking of life by a violent physical act. We are negligent ourselves if we give them a lighter sentence than someone who takes out a gun and shoots somebody.

So I don't agree with capital punishment, but I would agree with life in prison for these perps.

[Kagemusha]

35. I'm not making an argument that execution was wisest here. Not at all.

I'm saying the crime was worthy of it. Not that it's a smart move. I don't have the wisdom or direct knowledge to judge that from a position of strength.

But I just don't agree that this should be equated with "the crimes of businessmen" in general. This is murder by poison. Not knowing exactly who the victims would be does not make it less so. Perhaps that doesn't fit some people's definition of "violent physical act," but to me, it's a direct act of murder, no different from shooting random people with a rifle. It's murder by poison in exchange for a bribe. That's a "white collar crime"? No, it's simple murder. And that's all.

[marions ghost]

44. OK well we are generally in agreement

but I see you don't quite understand what I am saying about white collar crimes.

Let me see if I can say it another way. The guy is a businessman. The motive for the crime is profit. The decision was deliberate. The result is death that can be called murder. Therefore, it is (loosely speaking) a "white collar crime." People are more conflicted about a businessman being given a stiff sentence for this than they are a thug on the street who kills.

I'm arguing that we need to change the definition of crimes of violence. White collar business criminals hide behind the fact that sentences are generally much lighter for them. And it can be difficult to trace and access the direct path of injury to others. So I am expanding the term "white collar crime" to include crimes which end in injury or death or mental breakdown, which they so often do. Perpetrators are indeed a threat to society. The BFEE is a prime example. But there are also smaller business criminals affecting life at every level of American society.

Anyway, my point is "white collar crimes" when perpetrated by businessmen are almost always crimes of serious injury and violence. But the term has come to be synonymous with minor crooks like little old ladies who embezzle from the bank or accountants who pilfer from Wal-Mart. So there is more tolerance for these types of higher-level crimes than there should be. That's why someone could say this deliberate product adulteration crime is not "worthy" of the same sentence as a murderer would get (whatever that may be).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Doesn't sound worthy of state killing to me.

Sounds like negligent homicide. Life in prison, max.

[Kagemusha]

32. I hesitate to wonder what would be worthy to you.

It better be "nothing," because I don't wanna have to think about what's so much more heinous that it would be worthy to you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. First degree murder.

And that only maybe.

[Kagemusha]

36. Ah. See my post #35 that I just put up.

You may not agree with it, but I make an argument that this WAS in effect first degree murder, for hire.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. It wasn't first degree murder in any way.

And I think you know that.

You just feel more comfortable with this reactionary "kill the bastard" bullshit because it's more macho, more Nancy Graceish. Whatever.

[Kagemusha]

39. I'll be polite and ignore the vicious personal attack.

I view the knowing approval, in response to a bribe, of poison resulting in the deaths of innocent people who thought they were taking safe, properly tested medicine, to be no different from putting a revolver to the back of each victim's head and pulling the trigger.

Having said that, you seem to think I'm lying or kidding or some such thing when I say I'm not convinced that the execution was wise or proper. I'm not, but if that's what you're determined to believe, I'd rather let it drop than engage in flaming.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. See, you strike me as a reasonably intelligent person.

And the difference between negligent homicide, and premeditated murder is rather simple and easy to understand.

Which is why I think you know the difference.

[Kagemusha]

42. I know the difference. The charges here don't involve a mistake.

They involve not the faulty approval of a bad product. The charge is that the guy took a bribe to knowingly put medicine he knew was dangerous on the market with government approval, with the full and confident knowledge that it would kill someone.

A person who injects poison into candy bars at a supermarket doesn't know exactly who he/she is going to kill either, but it's still premeditated murder.

Now, is the guy guilty of the charge as I have presented it, as China has presented it? That's what I can't say for sure. But if he is, my arguments stand. If he is not, they are irrelevant. It is no more complex than that.

[Bluebear]

18. Barbaric. nt

[dEMOK]

20. That's How They Roll (heads)...

...C'mon! This is still "Communist China!"

How much of our debt is Communist China holding???

Where does our Constitution matter here???

[Horse with no Name]

22. I don't advocate the death penalty

However, I will make exceptions for government officials who have abused their positions of public trust and used their power to harm the people they vowed to protect and serve. The betrayal of the public trust should not be one that a person should be allowed to get away with.
I'm not likely to waiver on that.

[JANdad]

23. The question you have to ask yourself is this:

What OTHER secrets did he take to his grave? What did he know that he did not say to save face for his family? Would he have been more apt to cooperate given some alternatives to death? Now we will never know...Now we will have another bureaucrat in China covering his backside trying to untangle the mess...

[Horse with no Name]

24. You can ask yourself that OR

you can wonder if someone will be willing to risk their life for a lie. There is a reason that in some parts of the world people don't steal. It's not worth having their hand cut off if they are caught.

[JANdad]

27. But those hands

are STILL being chopped off. Human nature is not perfect and punishment is only a deterent...it does not stop ALL crimes/mis-deeds...

[Subdivisions]

25. Absolutely barbaric! (Story coming up on CNN next. 8:15am Central)

[Coventina]

26. Dead men tell no tales. n/m

[JerseygirlCT]

29. Holy cow.

And we're busy in putzing around in Iraq.

These guys are dangerous.

[mainegreen]

38. To put this in perspective:

China has a serious corruption problem. Serious. I would bet that the government places rising tension among the population due to this corruption as one of the top threats to internal stability. There is no one else to blame, nowhere to point, in a one party state.

Corruption in China results in horrible, horrible human rights abuses. Like enslaving farmers and shipping them off to slave-factories, stealing land, diversion of government aid and other nice goodies.

Zheng Xiaoyu was top brass. Zheng Xiaoyu was extremely corrupt. Zheng Xiaoyu's corruption is responsible for the death of upwards of hundreds of people.

Zheng Xiaoyu had a trial, and most likely a fair one too.

His execution may not fit in with our liberal views on capital punishment, but it was in no way unfair, barbaric or unjust.

Hell, I'd love to see our government take corruption half as seriously as China is right now. Corruption in our government is most certainly directly causing death amongst our citizenry.

[wicket]

41. "no hearings, no lengthy impeachment trial....just straight to execution"

It's the fascist way.

[xultar]

43. GOTDAYUM...that is some harsh shit. Was he involved in the wheat gluten and drug

contamination?

[Elspeth]

45. Can we send them Michael Brown?

(Only kidding) I am opposed to the death penalty.

[cureautismnow]

48. Who would volunteer to take this gig now? n/t

:wow:

[tjwash]

49. If it would have happened here in the U.S...

...his punishment would have been quite severe.

He would have to negotiate really, really REALLY hard to get 2 to 5 years and then call in his favors (or threaten to squeal on the entire administration), to get shrub to commute his sentence.

The real punishment would eventually come later when the IRS nails him for not declaring all the taxable revenue from the resultant book and movie rights.

[Swamp Rat]

50. kick