Sanja Gupta apparently thinks the American people are a bunch of dumbasses...

[Solon]

He kept on bringing up the word "Free" as in free of all costs health care, saying that's the impression that "unsophisticated" people will have of health care systems in other countries like Canada and France. I distinctly remember Moore mentioning stuff like taxes and stuff. Free health care means free AT SERVICE. I figure the American people can understand the distinction.

[Rick Myers]

1. He's a shrill, boneheaded fool!

[MrMickeysMom]

5. And that's saying a lot when you're in the "situation room"! n/t

[lligrd]

2. He Is The Dumbass - Who Does He Think Pays For

health care now? We already pay for the poor and we pay more for them because they delay care until they need emergency care. And with the current system the middle class is vulnerable if a major illness strikes them because the costs are unaffordable and they are not eligible to help until they lose everything. And that doesn't even take into account the life saving procedures that HMOs do not cover even though federal and state programs cover some of them. You have to be a real dumbass to think that getting for-profit insurance agents out of the bussiness will cost more.

[mountainvue]

3. They guy is a shill and he showed it

this evening on CNN.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. "It's not free! You pay for it in taxes!"

Yeah. No shit, Gupta.

Good post. The level of stupidity assumed for Gupta to even make this point is absurd. Of course, it may be that Gupta is not assuming a level of stupidity at all, but rather rhetorically linking universal healthcare with a negative (taxes) in order to critique it without having to make an actual argument.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Well, that's what they're banking on, BUT Michael Moore has explained the systems PERFECTLY

so anyone who sees his movie will understand just how corrupt and GREEDY our health care providers are. Michael has exposed their cozy little secret. Gupta, as a DOCTOR, should be ashamed of himself.

Moore DID mention the higher taxes in France and the UK, but he also explained what they get for those higher taxes! College is paid for, paid maternity leave for 6 weeks, a house cleaner for the new mother at home with her baby, they send in someone to do her laundry and cooks for her if she needs that, they pay the people back if they have to take a taxi or bus to the hospital????!!! They get 6 (?) weeks paid vacation and are not allowed to work more than 35 hours a week. Yeah, they pay higher taxes, but they get a hell of a lot of services for their higher taxes. If we paid what they pay in taxes, it would be CHEAPER than what we pay now. THAT is the message here and THAT is what Gupta needs to cover-up because he and his cohorts would be paid a piddly $200,000 and heaven knows...they can't have that! Even though the one doctor in France lived in a $1 million home and lived VERY WELL on $200,000.:( Our system sucks. That's all there is to it and anyone who sees this film will easily understand that.

[tiptoe]

7. One major purpose of "wars..in perpetuity" is to keep US treasury weak so privatization can displace

U.S. government's role as universal health care provider (...among other services).

Our tax dollars are going to illegal, criminal wars...so * and his "elite base" (i.e. punky parasites) can continue to exploit the "business opportunities" of making money by denying services to Americans.

(See SiCKO, if haven't already. Moore points out well the scam that tax dollars going to pay for senseless "wars" based on lies could be going for health care.)

[NanceGreggs]

8. Good God, that man is an idiot!

The healthcare is paid for by taxes - where ELSE would it come from?

Perhaps Sanjay couldn't figure that out for himself, until someone patiently explained it to him, and then went on to assume that if HE didn't understand it, nobody else would either.

[MichiganVote]

9. Needs to have neurologial surgery to remove his ingrown arrogance

Another big money man who doesn't want to pay taxes. I was pissed when I listened to him.

[Maat]

10. Yes, the point is a citizen's quality of life and standard of living.

I would gladly pay more taxes if I didn't have to pay high premiums and a high deductible, AND college costs, etc., etc.

I would be blissful is I didn't have to worry about some claim being denied because of a perceived preexisting conditon or the procedure was performed outside of a preapproved location, or whatever.

The poor and middle classes do much better in other countries; that is the point.

[MichiganVote]

15. I share your view. I want to pay taxes that provide something, rather than nothing.

[Maat]

16. Yes, instead of paying for covert assassinations,

fomenting unrest in a sovereign nation's government, and torture ....

I want to pay for single-payer, universal healthcare, and restore the system of free, or virtually free, college education that we used to have in California.

And, Gupta, don't try to B.S. me; my brother-in-law is a ob-gyn, and I know the story about their goals and desires.

[MichiganVote]

22. No kidding. The less we demand, the less we get, the more the wealthy take.

[Maat]

24. Exactly (n/t)!

[Zodiak]

25. And who the hell decided it was "okay"

to not treat a person because they were sick before?

Pre-existing condition clauses create a stigma in the sick. MAKES them ASHAMED!!

Is that right?

NO....and never should be.

But we accept it as a fact that cannot be fought against....so we never fight against it. It emboldens them.

[KillCapitalism]

11. I have an idea.

How about we nominate this guy for conservative idiot of the week here on DU.

[EFerrari]

12. For a brain surgeon, he's a real idiot. n/t

[Rex]

13. That is what happens when you hire a shrill to preach lies

all day AND lick Wolfie's boots. Toady experts have bottled minds.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. NEARLY 4,000 DEAD FOR A BULLSHIT ENDEAVOR AND WE HAVEN'T STOPPED IT YET

We're a bunch of dumbasses.

[Maat]

17. I hear ya' (n/t)!

[NMMNG]

18. Apparently he does think that

But we know it's not free just like the police, firefighters, paramedics, military, roads, and countless other "public" services we receive are not "free" despite the fact that we don't pay for them directly.

[Firespirit]

19. Of course he does

He's a part of the corporate power structure. They have nothing but contempt for the rest of the country.

[SteelPenguin]

20. Honestly that part of the movie irritated me too

He did mention the taxes but the free free free was hammered in, to the point of showing the cashier at the NHS hospital in england being a place that dispenses money.

Big whoop. I've never shelled out cash at a hospital. When my wife has our first kid by c-section and the bill was 18 grand we didn't get it till after we had left the hospital. Yes Hospitals have billing departments, but most people in america as well never sign a check, or fork over cash at the hospital.

I get his point, but he did it badly, and people are picking on it. He shouldn't have put it the way he did, and I feel it was dishonest.

Would I rather have national health care that comes out of taxes? Absofuckinglutely. I just don't get why Moore has to cloud the waters on topics that don't even need it. It just gives people ammunition.

[Katherine Brengle]

26. If you don't have insurance and it's not an emergency,

I believe you do have to pay at the time of service in many places.

Emergencies are treated regardless, and billing is done after the fact. And if you are insured, then your insurance is billed first and then any remaining balance is billed to you.

I know when my uninsured friends go to the walk-in, they are billed on the spot.

[SteelPenguin]

32. Read my post bellow

I've plenty of experience with PCP's, Specialists, Hospitals, and independent medical speciality centers where I get billed later, and pay nothing at the time of service.

If you go to a walk-in clinic, I can see them asking for payment on the spot, but for the standard physicians I've never experieinced that. Ever.

[Katherine Brengle]

40. Understood - but I can tell you

that I have been to doctor's offices where payment is expected at the time of service. I'm sure this differs in different places - and not all doctors I have dealt with work this way.

[SoonerPride]

27. Wrong

They want money, UP FRONT MONEY, to receive care.

You are wrong.

[SteelPenguin]

31. Wrong

I've been self pay by choice for a long time. Unless you're talking about extensive specialty services they don't want money up front to receive care.

Go jump off a roof, break your arm, call an amublance. They'll take you to the ER, x-ray your arm, set the bone, cast you up, and give you a bill. They don't lock you up if you don't have your wallet on you.

I went to my PCP for a medical condition. No payment. Got a bill a few weeks later. Went to the Specialtist I was refered to. Saw him. Got treatment. No payment. Got a bill a few weeks later.

I could even have gone and gotten an 1800 cat scan that same day. No money up front, just a bill a few weeks later.

When my wife was pregnant the second time we used an independent radiology center for her ultrasounds. Got 3 there (there were complications) and only paid once at the clinic, by choice.

..and as I mentioned the 18,000 c-section delivery...no bill till afterwards.

So sorry, from my experieince, you are wrong.

[PA Democrat]

28. You probably weren't here when a much beloved DUer died

waiting for surgery. He didn't have insurance and DU raised the money to pay for his surgery. The hospital demanded payment in advance. Andy died because he didn't get the money in time. It's a long sad story, but my point is that hospitals can and do demand at least a partial payment in advance for expensive procedures.

[SteelPenguin]

30. For Expensive Procedures

Sure, for expensive procedures they do demand payment, or at least financing arranged up front. It's criminal. To say though that he would have been rushed into surgery in England though is absurd. He might not have had to pay for it but for speciality surgeries like that particularly there is a very long wait in England and other places.

I'd rather have a long wait than an impossible bill personally, but if Moore had presented that story he'd have said X died waiting for surgery he couldn't pay for, where in england it would have been free! That's the part that's dishonest. It wouldn't be free, and who knows how long he would have to wait for it.

[PA Democrat]

35. I didn't say that Andy would have been "rushed into surgery in England."

But it is a fact that patients with life-threatening conditions are prioritized. It's not a FIFO system at all.

You are using a lot of hypotheticals, how you suppose Moore would have presented the story, how long Andy would have had to wait for his life-saving surgery.

Deal with facts. I was refuting your claim, "Yes Hospitals have billing departments, but most people in america as well never sign a check, or fork over cash at the hospital."

People in America are in fact DYING because hospitals are demanding payment up front.

[SteelPenguin]

36. I'm not saying their not

I'm saying that Moore's generalizations are easily shown to be incorrect or distortions. He doesn't need to resort to these sorts of methods of storytelling because it opens up the entire topic to being dismissed.

People are dying because hospitals are demanding payment up front. I'm not claiming they aren't. I'm just saying that asking a couple with a baby at an English hospital how much they paid would get a different, but similiar reaction from the vast majority of insured people in America. The insured would say 'my insurance covers it' just like the English family did. The uninsured would not know what they owed at that point because they wouldn't get the bill till later.

I stand by my assertion that most people in America will never signa check or fork over cash at a hospital. I stand by my assertion that him repeatedly saying that the care over there in those countries is 'free' is a distortion.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. Honestly, when was the last time nuance actually got the point across in the US?

Was it dumbed down a bit? Yes. He got his point across without going into the fact that their systems covers one without co-pays and deductibles due to their "premiums" being paid for through their taxes. They don't go into the doctor's office and leave worried about how they are gonna pay the bill.

But that's nuance and nuance doesn't play well in the US.

No, we won't pay at the hospital upon leaving, just shortly after.

And god forbid you are in a situation where you can't really afford to pay for the portion of the bill that wasn't covered by your insurance.

The medical billers are a vicious lot and apparently not all that competent either.

It already sucks when someone is sick and has probably lost time from work and feels like crap, but the instant you leave the hospital, they will start hounding you for the money.

Even when you are insured and not leaving the hospital, a single fuck up will end up costing you.

My own experience with it was when I was diagnosed with AIDS....I was recovering from pneumonia (no hospital visit involved), had esophageal thrush, weighed 110lbs, been on short-term disability for 2 months which sliced my income by 1/3, had decent insurance and my blood got sent to an out of network lab for a battery of tests.

I would have liked to have focused on getting well, but instead, I got hounded by the medical billers for 500 or 600 dollar bill that my insurance wouldn't pay for. By the time I got to the bottom of it and found out that I was pretty much screwed, I called the medical billing company and told them I'd send them all but 50 dollars of the bill this week and the remainder in 2 weeks when my next paycheck came in. They agreed.

A week after sending the vast bulk of the bill, I got a letter from a collection agency for the 50 dollars. I called the medical billers and got told by 9 different people there was nothing they could do about it. I finally got a supervisor on the phone and she said "I don't why this went to collections, it says right here in the computer we agreed to accept your payment plan and lord knows you made more than what qualifies as a good faith payment. I'll have that pulled from the collection agency today."

It's just a ridiculous system we have in the US.

[SteelPenguin]

37. It's an insane system

The fact that you had to deal with that at that point was ridiculous. After our 18 grand hospital bill we spent months on the phone. Heck even just getting a phone number for the billing department for the hospital was a problem. Dealing with the different bills, the red tape, etc. Eventually we got it knocked down, and after months of rigamarole, it got covered by the hospital and we didn't have to pay any of it because of our income at the time.

I hate the system. We NEED nationalized health care.

It's just that his dumbing down of the facts plays into the hands of people who help distort his films later on. Sure they're targeting him and they'll nitpick every little thing, but he stands up and claims his films are 100% fact, and they just fucking aren't. He might use facts, and support each number, but he presents them often in dishonest ways.

And good that he does! It's supposed to be persuading people. It's just that when you do something like the FREE FREE FREE thing which is just so blatantly incorrect it turns alot of those people who need convincing off. Heck I agree with the guys message and even I was turned off by it. What about someone who doesn't like him in the first place?

If someone presents 100 facts and says "These are all 100% true" and you don't know anything about 90 of them, but know that 8 of what he says that you know of are true, and 2 are false, you're going to be suspicious about the ones you don't know anything about. You're not going to believe his claim that they are true. You're goign to shut down and not listen.

That's my problem. He always shoots himself in the foot this way. Preaches to the choir too much.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. He thinks people who watch CNN are a bunch of dumbasses.

I agree with him.

[Disturbed]

23. Gupta doesn't earn enough as a brain surgeon?

He has to be a Corp. Shill, as well?

[cassiepriam]

29. He isn't wrong. :(

We buy anything the sociopaths sell us.

[KAT119]

34. Gupta locked his email-paging dr.gupta-v. early at 124 Comments!!!

He definitely fell into the neocon abyss w/ his 'fudging facts', misinfo, shoutdowns, slapdowns, snide, belittling tactics to MM along w/reptile
Larry King!!!!

Millions of watchers of Gupta's 'hit job' attempt on Michael, who have poor or no healthcare, watched the only man trying to really help them, MM, bring LIGHT to criminally corrupt corporate insurance/Big Pharma/insatiably GREEDY AMA --so darkly & disgustingly represented by s-eating Grin Gupta!

[mtnester]

38. Has CNN apologized to Michael Moore yet?

I thought they said they would acknowledge or apologize publicly if the Doctor said something that was not true.

I won't hold my breath though..I like living too much.

[LibDemAlways]

39. You can bet he's profitted handsomely from the

US health care cabal - collecting fat fees as a surgeon and as a CNN shill for the industry.

Why should he care if ordinary citizens go without and die? Won't affect his bottom line.

[malaise]

41. Here's a nice read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1324047