Mike Moore is right about healthcare being free

[TheBaldyMan]

I was thinking about Mike Moore on the Larry King Show, lambasted for his claim that medical treatment in all those countries with universal healthcare was free. I heard Mike being browbeaten into silence by two reporters with a long track record of dishonesty and inaccuracy, continually loading questions and twisting claims that had already been shown to be flat out lies.

Later I was mulling this over and I had an epiphany. Mike was right - healthcare is free in the UK.

Sure enough here in the UK I have to pay for the British NHS with my taxes, so someone has already paid for the doctors, nurses, ancillary workers, hospitals, pharmacies etc. but it is still free healthcare. How can something be free if you have to pay for it? It works like this...

Say Larry King is walking down a street here in England, he begins to feel faint and dizzy, he collapses to the ground. Even though Mr. King had never paid taxes here in the UK he would receive exactly the same standard of healthcare that any Briton would. After all if someone Mr. King's age were to be taken poorly it would be advisable at least to get a check up by a physician. If that physician decided that he would like to run a few tests (just to be on the safe side) Mr. King would have those tests done. At no point would anyone ask him for payment because the primary consideration would be his medical condition. The questions asked would be about his health, what could be wrong with him, what would the appropriate treatment be. He would then receive that treatment.

As someone who has actually paid into the system I have no problem with this, I would be horrified if I thought that somebody was taken ill and wasn't getting medical treatment the equal of the kind I would receive. I'd like to thank Mr. Moore for pointing this out to me, I never realised that here in the UK we do indeed have free healthcare.

[aquart]

1. You are indeed fortunate.

And never forget to thank the people who got it for you.

[lligrd]

2. You Just Don't Get It

Repukes would rather go back to the days when people without insurance lay in the streets dying (and spreading) of terrible diseases rather than spend a penny paying for their treatment (and ensuring that the streets remained clean and not infect their children). Actually, they are banking on the fact that the rest of us would not allow that to happen and even while working for slave wages ourselves, would bankroll the poor to protect ur own children (thus allowing their children to be protected freely). So it is crazy, nobody sane ever said Repukes weren't.

[rosesaylavee]

24. Back to the days?

18,000 die every year due to lack of medical care. Maybe it was worse during the depression - but there were less people at that time too. These are the days the repugs don't want to go away. The profit is too good.

[Skidmore]

3. Our problem is that we have such a firmly intrenched private insurance

industry that is a virtual racket. To top it off, the insurance industry has been allowed to move into the business of financing and baking as well. It is a corrupt system hellbent on hanging onto every dollar it can pull out of the hands of the ill and the dying. Torts attorneys are not the problem. Malingerers are not the problem. Health care providers are part of the problem in that they are willing to play in the money game with the insurance industry and Big Pharma, another industry run amuk.

[rodeodance]

5. People who believe in Universal health care are the new 'welfare Queens" here in the US

[Swamp Rat]

4. ... whereas if Larry was run over by a van here in the USA, but had no insurance

he'd be Baldrick's dinner.

[bluedeminredstate]

6. Of course, you're right.

My taxes pay for interstate highway upkeep, repair and construction. I've never considered that my driving anywhere in the US on any interstate highway is anything but FREE. I don't drive down I-95 grumbling ablout how much the trip is costing me... In fact I drove from Richmond to Philly the other day and the trip was completely, absolutely and entirely FREE except for the cost of gas and the couple tolls that Maryland and Delaware - not the federal government - charge.

That's why we pay taxes. How could Dr. Gupta argue that national healthcare is anything but FREE? Ask any senior citizen if their Medicare is free - I bet they say "OF COURSE IT IS!!!"

[TheBaldyMan]

7. Just like someone driving on the road, nobody asks if they paid for the road.

It's not that the NHS hasn't been paid for but the service is provided for free to those that need medical help. Like I said in my post even a visitor who has never paid taxes in Britain is treated, that is my definition of free healthcare, treatment given on a clinical basis.

[demgirlamerica]

22. free?

maybe that shows how ill-informed the seniors are. my social security is "free" as well. the govt is free to confiscate every cent i paid in if i croak.

[kath]

29. Actually, doesn't Medicare have fairly high co-pays and deductibles? Such is NOT the case in those

nasty pinko Yurpeen countries (or in Canada)

[China_cat]

8. My husband's familly lives in Holland.

While his parents were alive they received all kinds of health care free (paid for by taxes, but that should be understood by the majority here) including home help, dr visits at home when the flu season was on and they didn't need to be compromised, surgery and chemotherapy on my f-i-l's cancer, a home respiratory therapist, a housekeeper (people in nurse's training there have to take a course in housekeeping and are sent out to patients' homes in their last year) and more.

Our nephew has one of the distrophic conditions and has been in a wheel chair all his life. The state paid for all his wheelchairs as he grew, a motorized lift to get him up the stairs, a lift system to enable his parents to manage him in and out of bed and bath, a caretaker 3 days a week to give his parents a break, schooling, 2 weeks a year vacation out of the country with his class and the vehicle necessary to transport the boy and his chair. (His parents only had to pay insurance, fuel and regular maintenance on it) He's now a disabilities lawyer.

You can't begin to imagine what that would cost here. (My PUSH wheelchair was almost $500 on it's own) Yeah, they paid a lot in taxes. Seems to me like they got a hell of a lot for what they paid in.

[TheBaldyMan]

10. the ethos of a UHC system is that the care is provided because your F-i-L needed it

any question of whether or not he could afford it just did not arise. It is a care based system, from that point of view it is most definately free.

[Lars39]

20. Were your inlaws threatened with the loss of any of the home visits

if they went somewhere? If you get Home Health visits here in the US, you are basically housebound.
They allow necessary doctor visits and maybe church on Sunday, and that's it. My dad was dropped because he went to a flea market. :(

[China_cat]

31. Heavens no. There were no restrictions on the homecare

at all. In fact, they could have had more if they'd asked for it.

[izzie]

9. What we get from the govt. we get with our tax. It is not free

Right now we pay a lot for ins. if we have the money but every one is also paying for this. Tons of money going into hospitals, doctors training and drugs plus we also must pay to have the service from the very thing our taxes are also paying a good deal for. I think if the tax payers pay for so much of the health in this country it should be a 'free' service for all. Besides a country is always better off if all the people are cared for when they are ill. The days of a horse and doctor making rounds are gone and medical is so costly only govt. can do it. If this was not so the govt. would not be pumping billions into building hospitals, training doctors and making new drugs.

[TheBaldyMan]

11. my OP explains why UHC is free, no one asks for payment, you are treated if you need it.

Your post states that American society invests a huge amount of money in doctors' training and the building of hospitals for the common good. It is the exact same principles behind UHC.

Do you consider primary and secondary education in the US to be free? It has already been paid for through taxes but any reasonable person would think that the notion of charging per day at the local elementary to be absurd.

If your house was on fire would you be surprised if the fire dept. demanded to see your local tax receipts before putting the fire out. Incidently you can still see old insurance company badges on Georgian houses in England - each insurance company did have their own fire engines. If they were called out to a fire and you had another company's badge they'ld stand there and watch your house burn down. Remind you of anything?

[izzie]

16. I am with you on this but free it is not. We pay for it.

In a modern society like ours I think we must have govt. step in and do more things as it is just to un-likely that a small society can do it any more. A man could not buy an x-ray machine so to speak. And you can be sure no rich man is going to put in a local road. All this stuff takes lots of people and money. The people pay for it so they should not have to re-pay to use it. Maybe the up-keep? Free schools and fire departments are the same thing. We pay for it so it should be used by any one and 'free'. Maybe I have been called a socialist but I do not think so. I believe in business and receiving money for your talent in all things but the structure of a country is in a different place than when our country started and we must keep up with the times. Even coming from an old GOP family we knew that you build your town to make every one live better. I think every one has to pay taxes even if the poor pay little they need to be in the loop on using things they have to pay for. In a society there will always be a few that can not take care of them self. We know Churches can not care for them, they showed us this over the years, so govt. must do that.

[TheBaldyMan]

28. I see your point but if a tourist is mugged the police still investigate the crime

you pay into the kitty like everybody else but the services are available on a needs basis.

I understand what you are saying but my point is taxes pay for the services but the principle of access means that its free.

I don't have kids but I can't use that as an argument that I shouldn't have to pay for schools. As a member of society I accept my collective responsibility to provide for things like police , fire, education etc. All these services are provided for those that need them, I pay for them but count myself lucky if I never have to use them.

[izzie]

32. I am with you. I am not fighting your point at all but for this

We all pay in our taxes so in fact it is not 'free'. It is a paid service that all should have. We often pay the bill but big business for profits gets to sell the service and I think that is wrong. Just like our air waves and then we have to beg to get any thing fair onto them. I do not like corp. govt. and it is getting to big. I live in fear that big corp. will take over the water in this country.

[Pab Sungenis]

12. I've paid into the English and Canadian systems....

I never apply for my VAT refunds in either country. Granted, it's only a few dollars/pounds, but I've paid in.

The real trick is that because of the single-payer system meaning no one stiffs the hospitals for their bills, and fewer people need to use emergency rooms, the overall cost is less than it is under an American-style system.

[Katherine Brengle]

13. Excellent point!

[HonorTheConstitution]

14. Michael and others have to keep up the pressure and...

... inform the average uneducated American about the fact that other countries are doing things may be better than
Big America!
I lived many years in Germany and don't get me started about their health care system! Ten times better despite some problems. And it is free except a small co-payment for brand Rx.

[cooolandrew]

15. Yep,...

... In the UK we really don't realise how lucky we are, our system saves lives everyday. Where if we had the profit system there would not only be people suffering but falling into bankruptcy from inadequate coverage. In one respect Moore has not only put America on tghe right path for single payer, but made the UK realise our pride and joy is our NHS, and is something we should fight to maintain.

[info being]

17. I just liked the fact that he didn't back down...

..but of course he could have said it better:

"You're bothered by the word "free", I'm bothered by the fact that Americans aren't getting decent healthcare. The audience is sophisticated enough to know exactly what I'm talking about when I say free healthcare."

But, fuck, the fact that he has to fight so hard to argue such a simple point illustrates the impossibility of change.

[Vinca]

18. A nice post. I know a person who became ill in France and had

the same experience.

[DS1]

19. That's precisely what he shows in the movie

An American wants to walk across Abbey Road - on his hands. Falls and breaks his wrist. A few hours later he's all patched up and back on his way without paying one quid

[TheBaldyMan]

25. they did charge him $10 for all the 'way cool drugs'

Eric Turnbow is my hero and I'm glad he got the care he needed.

He has a post up at MichaelMoore.com about his attending a premiere of SiCKO in L.A.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/blog/2007/07/my-own-road-to-sicko.html

[DS1]

27. oh yes, my mistake

still, 10 bucks is certainly reasonable

[davekriss]

21. A better way to think of it is...

...that U.K., France, and Canadian healthcare is prepaid by the citizenry, and costs are broadly socialized (across the whole of its citizenry).

Thus no citizen or visitor to London needs to fear, if they lose their job, how their healthcare bills will be paid. Or, if they have a job with healthcare benefits (as some here in the U.S. have), they won't have to fear that the inurance firms deny their claims or refuse to pre-cert them for needed care.

18,000 U.S. citizens die a year due to lack of access to needed healthcare. And we spend almost twice per citizen on healthcare, approximately 33% siphoned off by the insurance industry and hospital administrative services which ever battle the insurance companies for full and timely payments. Much of that 33% would be saved if we went to a single payer healthcare system as exampled by the civilized first world.

[tblue37]

23. We also pay taxes, but instead of healthcare, we get Halliburton and

other crony scams of the ruling elite. I would like to get the services and infrastructure we are paying for, instead of the Iraq occupation and Blackwater.

[churchofreality]

26. My wife put it best last night...

She said "you don't pay every time you drive on the fucking road, but we still know that we are supporting the maintenance of the roads with taxes" Its the same with healthcare, obviously the american people know that free healthcare means it would come out of tax money. Moores point was that in other countries, they take the profit out and therefore do it cheaper.

[SoonerPride]

30. We spend what the next 10 countries do COMBINED on a bloated death industry

Cut our military spending back to what China spends and we could have FREE healthcare AND college AND new roads without paying a CENT MNORE.

[applegrove]

33. Not only that but that cost of health care in the USA, $7000 is based on

per capita spending. How much does that rise if you take out the 47 Million people who are not getting any medical care? I would imagine that number goes up quite a bit.

[cascadiance]

34. I would love for Moore to respond to "it's not free" by citing the cost of Iraq War to Americans!

If Gupta wants to try and quantify the additional taxes these other countries have to pay for their health care system, then perhaps Moore should respond in kind and give out the average cost of this war to each taxpayer too. And then ask Gupta if they are arguabably getting ANYTHING back for what they've spent there!

In 2005, this average cost per person was $727. I wonder what it is now...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0831-31.htm

[TheBaldyMan]

35. well the Iraqis and Afghans aren't billed for the bombs dropped on them

So you could say that the US is providing free Universal Ordnance Delivery, Uncle Sam doesn't care if the Afghan can afford the bomb, he just wants to to blow up a mujihadeen.