IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:53 AM
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Is support for a Constitutional ban on gay marriage homophobic? |
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Perhaps I am unclear on the definition of the term.
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ulysses
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:54 AM
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1. can you explain how it might not be? |
wuushew
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:54 AM
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youthere
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:55 AM
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Captain Hilts
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message |
4. In the US a lot of it is about money. I.e. spouses from gay marriages wanting benefits. |
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That's why it's legal in Canada. You don't have businesses afraid of having to cover more healthcare expenses.
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Rosemary2205
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:56 AM
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5. not every anti-gay person is a homophobe. |
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I would suspect most are but they don't necessarily go together. Having a religious belief about right and wrong does automatically make one "afraid" of gays.
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ulysses
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
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Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia Pronunciation: "hO-m&-'fO-bE-& Function: noun : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
It isn't limited to fear.
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Rosemary2205
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
22. Aha! I stand corrected! |
Sapphire Blue
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
23. And from ReligiousTolerance.org... |
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Meanings based on actions: Actively work towards defining homosexuals as a minority group which should be deprived (or kept deprived) of fundamental human rights which are enjoyed by other groups. This can be as simple an action as voting in a referendum to ban same-sex marriage. It can be as involved as being part of an anti-gay organization. Some rights being sought by many homosexuals include e.g.:
(snip) In our web site, we choose to define these words in terms of actions, not beliefs: homophobia as engaging in a behavior aimed at restricting the human rights of persons who have a homosexual orientation and/or who engages in homosexual behavior. This behavior can take many forms: signing a plebiscite; sending an Email to one's senator or representative; participating in a demonstration; voting on a school board; voting to elect a homophobe; talking to coworkers or friends, delivering a sermon; etc. These rights include what many believe to be the most important human right: to be married; to have their spousal status recognized and registered; and to be assigned benefits and obligations by the government. Other rights are protection from hate-motivated crimes, protection in accommodation, and employment security.
homophobe as a person who engages in homophobic behavior.
homophobic, an adjective referring to a behavior which attempts to maintain special rights for heterosexuals. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_phob.htm
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dmallind
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
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Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 12:02 PM by dmallind
but several "phobe" words have meanings beyond pure "fear". If you look at that definition as including comtempt or hate as several dictionaries do it's much more applicable. It's possible to be against gay marriage without fearing gays, and maybe without even hating them, but it's pretty tricky to deny them the rights benefits and privileges open to non-gays without having at least some contempt for them in that obviously their equal rights and happiness would have to be seen as less important than the homophobe's religion-inspired distaste.
So to answer the OP I'd say "yes, yes it is".
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Madspirit
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
108. It Does Make someone a PIG OPPRESSOR... |
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Keep your religious CRAP off my laws and off my body. Lee
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Solon
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
123. Whoa! Talk about a broad brush! |
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Having a religious belief about right and wrong does automatically make one "afraid" of gays.
I have a religious belief about right and wrong, and it automatically makes me oppose oppression in ALL its forms, in addition, homosexuality isn't immoral in my religion.
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muriel_volestrangler
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Wed Jul-11-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #123 |
136. I suspect there's a 'not' missing from that sentence |
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(ie 'does not automatically ...'). It would fit better with the rest of what that poster says.
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Rosemary2205
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Wed Jul-11-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #136 |
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it's nice to know some on DU still have more than one functioning brain cell. :)
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Solon
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Thu Jul-12-07 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #137 |
152. Thanks for the fucking insult. n/t |
Beer Snob-50
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message |
6. why do you feel that such a ban should be in place? |
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does this qualify in your mind for a constitutional amendment like women's rights, voting rights, freedom of speech, or the right to bear arms?
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Ian David
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message |
8. Why would it be homophobic to declare that gay people are inferior and undeserving... |
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of equal rights and protections under the law?
Gee.
If you really need it explained to you, then perhaps you'd be more comfortable on another message board.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
25. I believe we are on the same page on this issue. nt. |
LeftHander
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
53. Technically not "Homophobic" but bigoted.... |
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To think that you can exclude people from rights that others enjoy simply because of who they choose to love is bigoted. so in general and in the real worlkd I would lump bigots with homophobes, typically the two walk hand in hand.
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kevinbgoode
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #53 |
74. I prefer to call it. . .. |
Richard Steele
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message |
9. EDIT: I get it now; you're continuing your argument from this thread: |
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Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 12:05 PM by dicksteele
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
20. Not really. Just getting input into my usage of a term. |
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I could be wrong after all. I did not mention names or link to another thread. I am happy to have that discussion in that thread.
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Ian David
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
29. The originator of that thread is on my ignore list. Guess I'm not missing much. n/t |
IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
32. No...you are not. nt. |
Bridget Burke
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
60. Why can't we derail YOUR thread? |
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Your silly posts did just that to the thread about Senator Byrd.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #60 |
66. You could certainly attempt to do so. I cannot control what you post here. nt. |
yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
37. Oh, for crying out loud. Yes, anyone who voted for the bill is homophobic. |
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That includes Senator Byrd. Happy now?
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
40. not happy...saddened at the adoration of such a man. nt. |
yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:37 PM
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indie_voter
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:01 PM
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mmonk
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:02 PM
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jobycom
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message |
13. It would be fundamentally unAmerican and anti-Constitutional, in spirit. |
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Even if one could argue that it is not homophobic, it is certainly discriminatory, and it violates the Constitutional prohibition of creating levels of citizenship, by only allowing certain couples to enjoy full rights of citizenship.
It's also basical gender discrimination, telling someone they can't marry another person because of their gender. I really don't care about the whole "choice vs nature" argument, and don't see it as relevant. If a straight man wants to marry a straight man, I don't care--to say that they can't have the same relationship as a man who wants to marry a woman makes no sense to me, in the context of America and the values upon which we were founded. This is America, and the pursuit of happiness is an inalienable right that government can't infringe upon, and telling someone they have to live as a second-class citizen because their pursuit of happiness involves creating a family with someone of the same gender instead of someone of the opposite gender infringes on that right. It's just not America.
So I don't care what label or nuance of a concept is applied to such an amendment, it is just self-evidently wrong.
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MindPilot
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message |
14. Not necessarily, but it is on its face unconstitutional. |
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The Constitution is a document which establishes how the government works and what powers it has. The Bill of Rights limits those powers. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are not instruments for controlling individual citizen's behavior; they are for establishing and limiting governmental powers.
A Constitutional amendment prohibiting the government from interfering with the right of gays to marry, now that would make sense.
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eggman67
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Wed Jul-11-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
140. Well no, it wouldn't be "unconstitutional" |
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A Constitutional amendment, by definition, cannot be unconstitutional.
Wrong yes, but not unconstitutional.
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NMMNG
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:04 PM
Response to Original message |
15. You don't support equal rights for gay people |
IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
24. untrue...but I admire your confrontational attitude. nt. |
NMMNG
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
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After encounters with so many homophobes, trolls and other miscreants who post baiting questions for which the answers seemingly should be obvious it sometimes gets to be automatic. After reading your other thread I realize the real intent of this post.
:hi:
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
47. I seriously think that there needs to be more confrontation on... |
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more subtle forms of racism and homophobia in our society. When these smaller forms of hatred become acceptable or overlooked, it paves the way for wide ranging and more serious breaches. As long as it remains acceptable in our leaders to display these attitudes, no progress will be made.
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Warren DeMontague
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message |
16. Yes. And fundamentally discriminatory and contrary to basic principles of equality and freedom. |
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Beyond that, who gives a shit if it's "homophobic" or not- what I'd like to see is a cogent explanation of why the marriage of two consenting adults, neither of whom are YOU, is any of YOUR fucking business at all.
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melody
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
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The Bob people make the best posts. :)
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Warren DeMontague
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
Occulus
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
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I missed something, apparently.
What does that mean? I'm just curious...
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melody
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #116 |
121. His avatar is of Robert Anton Wilson |
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Bob was a brilliant man from whom many have stolen while not understanding a thing he said. lol
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buddhamama
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message |
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human rights and equality for me but not for thee should be the mantra of every person opposed to gay marriage.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message |
18. Thanks for the responses. It seems I am not alone in my understanding of that terms meaning. nt. |
maxsolomon
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message |
19. if it was a ban on all state-licensed marriage, period, then no |
Beelzebud
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:10 PM
Response to Original message |
21. Not only is it homophobic, it's anti-freedom. It's anti-American. |
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We don't add amendments to the constitution to LIMIT freedom. At least we didn't used to.
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NashVegas
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:16 PM
Response to Original message |
26. It Can Be, But Doesn't Have To Be |
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It could be out of simple pettiness, I suppose.
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melody
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:17 PM
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terrya
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message |
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There are no reasons whatsoever to oppose equality for gay and lesbian people...unless you hate gay and lesbian people.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message |
31. It depends on the individuals motivation |
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But I would be hard pressed to imagine a motivation to ban such a thing that was not linked in some way to homophobic rhetoric. But I do not believe it can be said automatically that someone opposed to gay and lesbian marriage is homophobic. Very very likely. But I think you would at least have to probe them to find out what their reasons are.
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dysfunctional press
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message |
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for some it's a deeply held religious issue.
just one more way that religion ultimately fucks up a society.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
45. A religious belief can be homophobic |
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Siting religion does not free them of the label. I agree it depends but it would take motivation based on a different set of criteria. Take for example someone that is opposed to the idea of government regulating marriage at all. They would be opposed to heterosexual marriage as well as homosexual marriage and thus not be homophobic in their opposition.
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dysfunctional press
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
63. but it doesn't have to be. |
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and that was the question.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #63 |
69. If a religious belief opposes homosexuality |
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then it is homophobic. Unless it opposes all relationships such as the Shakers did it has singled out homosexuals and relegated them to 2nd class citizenship. That is homophobic.
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Lydia Leftcoast
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #63 |
126. Sorry, QA, I'm religious myself, and the traditional doctrines on |
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homosexuality are as misinformed as the creation story in Genesis.
They treat homosexuality as a "sin" that can be changed at will, not as a normal variation of the human race and one that is neither willed nor limited to sexual behavior.
Anyone who still insists on a literal reading of the first chapters of Genesis is wilfully ignorant, and anyone who chooses to ignore the historical background for the Biblical prohibitions on homosexuality (in short, the ones in Leviticus were intended to ban any sexual behavior that couldn't possibly result in pregnancy, and the ones in Paul are a condemnation of exploitive relationships between older men and teenage boys) after having them explained is a bigot.
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Hell Hath No Fury
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message |
34. Yes, you hate Robert Byrd and think.... |
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he should not hold office. We get it. :eyes:
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
36. To be clear, I don't hate him. I just think he's a racist and homophobe..and should retire. nt. |
Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
43. He is a product of his times. |
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Problem is that if he retires his seat may have a better chance of going to a repug.
With all his faults, Byrd is still preferable to that, since all republicans are sworn to steal from the poor and give to the rich.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
52. I may even be able to accept your argument, but the adoration and praise? |
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Is it really appropriate?
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Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #52 |
56. What "adoration and praise?" |
IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #56 |
61. you are more than welcome to make that discussion in that thread. I will respond there. nt. |
dmallind
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
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how many people you need to convince of that? I mean it's no secret he's not exactly been the most socially progressive guy on earth.
He has some good moments on the floor and he votes the "right" way on most things but not even Democratic Senators get to be perfect in all ways, and I don't know why too many people would want to defend his vote.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message |
35. Yes. Changing the U.S. Constitution to prevent gay people from getting married is homophobic. |
Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message |
39. It's a sure sign of bigotry. |
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Maybe it's more hatred than phobia in some cases, but denying people the right to marry the person of their choice because they are of the same gender is discriminatory.
Is this even a serious question?
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
42. It is serious. I have always used the term much as the term "racist" is used... |
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as not only fear of homosexuals, but intolerance, discrimination and hatred of any kind. I was just curious as to others understanding of the word.
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Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
50. I see now that it's serious but disingenuous - just couching for an attack on Byrd. |
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Funny you would pick today, just when Byrd made a notable speech on the illegal Iraq invasion.
Why not just come right out and post a pic of some guy in a KKK robe with the headline "RETIRE ALREADY, KKK BYRD"
It would save a lot of time and wasted keystrokes talking to you.
Enjoy your visit. :eyes:
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
58. I made no mention of Byrd in this thread until he was brought here... |
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I responded to all posts in that thread. I did not link to it or mention it in this one, until others did so. Gauging the opinion of homophobia as a term for more than just fear of gays is a legitimate discussion to me.
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Bridget Burke
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
64. But you derailed the other thread about Byrd's speech on Iraq. |
IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #64 |
71. I'm not complaining. Derail away. nt. |
Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
65. Yeah, it's sure to be scintillating. |
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The only issue regarding that word is the boring semantic question of whether it refers strictly to a "fear" of gays or to all bigotry, hatred, fear, etc. of gays. And who cares, really.
That's not the point of this OP and you know it.
I should have known. What a preposterous question.
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nini
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message |
41. Can you be a bigot against gays but not homophobic? |
Orsino
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message |
44. Have you found another motivation that might explain it better? n/t |
Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
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Lets say a person rejects the idea that government should be involved in marriage. That it is dependent on whatever social/religious institution the individuals belong to. This would mean they oppose both heterosexual and homosexual marriages being governed by the state and thus are not homophobic.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
54. Then why amend the Constitution to specifically ban one type of marriage? |
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Right now, the U.S. Constitution doesn't mention marriage.
How would amending it to mention marriage be taking government out of the issue?
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #54 |
62. Because they don't have the support to ban the other type yet |
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I am not saying its a rational ploy. Just that you have to move beyond the simple opposition and ask them what their motivation is.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #62 |
72. I don't think that their thinking is on that high a level. |
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The people trying to ban gay marriage are using "defense or "normal" heterosexual marriage" as their rallying cry.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #72 |
75. So you believe them to be one monolithic entity |
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With a single thought amongst all of them? Thats rather interesting.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #75 |
85. LOL! Yes - I think that the fundy right-wing trying to ban gay marriage have the intellects of ants |
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And about the same ability to think independently.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #85 |
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And you don't think that you have a bias yourself? The idea of being tolerant is to let every person be a representation of themselves. To believe that you know a person because of some label or affiliation is the heart of intolerance. You have to probe a little deeper than just some label to find out who or what a person is. Or would you rather all homosexuals be placed under one easy to define label where all their personality traits and individual beliefs are distilled down into one singular position.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #89 |
90. Pfft. Straw man. No, I don't spend time thinking about the subtle nuances of bigoted thinking. |
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Anyone who pushes a Constitutional amendment to ban marriage isn't worthy of my time. I know that sounds intolerant, but there it is. I am intolerant of bigots.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #90 |
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You don't know if a person is a bigot or not. You lump them into the category without finding out who or what they are. Intolerance of intolerance I understand. But you seem to be jumping the gun and dumping any who don't agree with you into the bigot category whether you know what their stance is or not.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #93 |
97. Let's define the terms again. We're talking about the people pushing a constitutional amendment |
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to ban gay marriage. This would be the first time in the history of our nation that the Constitution was rewritten to exclude some people from rights, rather than extending rights. The people pushing this agenda are not talking about "getting the government out of marriage." Oh no. With their bumper stickers and their picnic rallies and their emails and their direct mail brochures they are pounding the message that "one man plus one woman equals marriage." In case anyone misses the point they expand on that by reminding us that "the Bible talks about Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."
Nobody - not one person - leading this movement has ever said anything about banning all marriages because they don't think that government should have anything to do with marriage.
Lots of people agree that the government should get out of the business of marriage. I am one of them. Currently, all marriages are handled by states. I think that they should call them civil unions and leave it up to religious institutions to call it a marriage or not. None of this discussion - which contains a lot of subtle differences - is happening among the "ban gay marriage with a constitutional amendment" crowd.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Or, may I say, ants to intelligent people. The ants scurry around and do what their leaders tell them to do. The ants slap one man one woman stickers on their minivans.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #97 |
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I agree that the people leading the pack on this issue are clearly homophobic. But we have their actions and rhetoric with which to judge if they are homophobic. And it speaks volumes. But the question is not about those leading the cause or those out in the public arena holding signs declaring "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve". The question was specifically concerning the vote itself. And you cannot tell a person's reasons for a vote from the vote itself. You need other context such as them jumping up and down declaring homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of the lord.
From just the vote you do not have enough information to know why they voted that way. I am not saying its not likely that they are a bigot. Just that you cannot make an absolute blanket conclusion from it.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #100 |
104. If you find someone who supported the constitutional amendment for reasons other than bigotry |
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let me know.
I have to go count some angels on another pinhead right now.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #104 |
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You have to keep a steady hand when counting those pesky angels though. I recommend taking a little breather and relaxing a bit first.
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Toasterlad
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Wed Jul-11-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #100 |
141. I Can Make THIS Claim |
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Anyone voting for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is wrong for doing so, regardless of their reason. Split hairs about rationale all you like: it comes down to a vote FOR basic rights vs. a vote AGAINST basic rights. It's not terribly difficult to tell right from wrong in this case.
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Orsino
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:16 PM
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122. ...but in the meantime they're happy to discriminate? |
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Nope. This smells like homophobia, too.
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HiFructosePronSyrup
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
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Nobody had a problem with state sanctioned heterosexual marriages until homosexual marriages became an issue.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #55 |
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Lots of people have questioned the reason behind having the government regulate marriage. It just hasn't had an issue come forward that has galvanized anyone. The hoopla over same sex marriage has merely brought the issue of state run marriage into discussion and this has brought those who were silently against it out into the open.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:04 PM
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73. What, all one of you? I can guarantee that eliminating state run marriage |
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isn't a plank in the Republican Party.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:08 PM
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76. Are you assuming that this is my position? |
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I am merely offering a rational that may fit the question.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #76 |
81. You're the only one talking about it. |
Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #81 |
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You are letting your emotions get the better of you. This is understandable as the issue is heinous in many regards. But you seem to want to vent this anger at those who are your allies but do not say the right things in your opinion. Let me try to clarify what I am saying.
Homophobia is the act of singling out homosexuals for mistreatment, hatred, or limiting their rights. If a person's motivation for establishing a limiting law does not focus on homosexuals and instead covers both heterosexuals and homosexuals then it is not homophobic. You may disagree with their political position but they are not a homophobe.
To be specific I am prohomosexual rights. I believe that people are people and that we all deserve the same chances at life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that a loving homosexual couple is just as beautiful as a loving heterosexual couple. It is the love that makes it beautiful and who cares what parts go where.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:55 PM
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91. Sorry to disappoint you, but the main emotion I'm feeling is laughter! |
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It's hilarious to see you tie yourself in twisty knots trying to make me feel badly about thinking mean thoughts about bigots. But keep trying, it's greatly entertaining.
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Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #91 |
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I am not aware of any twisting I am doing. I merely am positing that from just a single vote you cannot determine a person's rational or whether they are a bigot or not. I don't like leaping into the dark. And that seems to be what you are doing. From a single observation of an action you leap to the conclusion that they must be a hate filled bigot. I say get to know the person before you decide who or what they are. You say hate them because of a label or a single action.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #94 |
99. Who said "hate" or "hate-filled"? |
Az
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #99 |
103. Hate usually accompanies bigotry |
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Or did I assume too much from a single label?
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porphyrian
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:37 PM
Response to Original message |
49. Not necessarily, but everything about it is wrong. |
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The Constitution is the wrong place for such a ban, "homophobia" isn't really a phobia at all in its most common usage, and the idea that anyone should be able to ban any people in love from marriage is wrong.
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Marr
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:41 PM
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sniffa
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:42 PM
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you're probLem is not with the term, it's with not recognizing a hatefuL, bigoted amendment.
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wuushew
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:46 PM
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67. Can you please outline your thesis? |
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You provide no structure or direction to the course of debate.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #67 |
70. I use the term homophobia in much the same way "racist" is used... |
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An accusation I made of homophobia due to support of an amendment banning same sex marriage was challenged as incorrect. I wanted to see others opinions on usage of the term, specifically in relation to support of banning what I see as a civil right.
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Midlodemocrat
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:08 PM
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kevinbgoode
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:12 PM
Response to Original message |
78. I consider it heterosupremacist |
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When 1400 laws are passed and interpreted as only-valid-if-you-engage-in-a-state-sanctioned-heterosexual-only institution - and they govern universal human experiences like life, taxes, death, health and immigration. . .I consider it just as supremacist as assigning a different water fountain, assigning blacks special days at the movie theater while banning them the rest of the time.
Only a supremacist would advocate one set of rules for some citizens, and another set of rules for those considered unclean.
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Balbus
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:15 PM
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79. Absolutely - and Senator Byrd is a racist and a homophobe. |
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You've proved your point.
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Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:25 PM
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80. His point is getting Byrd out of office... |
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...and an (R) in.
I see no other reason to bring this up EXACTLY when Byrd just made a big speech on Iraq.
The whole point is to steal his thunder and hopefully get closer to having an (R) in his seat.
Byrd has been in office for like 70 years. There have been plenty of times people could have brought this shit up about him, but no, it has to be TODAY.
Geez you people are played like violins.
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yardwork
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #80 |
82. Well, I don't vote in West Virginia, so my support is moot. |
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I agree with you that the timing for this "concern" is interesting.
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ContraBass Black
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:33 PM
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83. Though it doesn't have the same formal ring, |
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"Anti-gay" might be a more apt descriptor.
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mitchum
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:39 PM
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86. Bigoted and unconstitutional (n/t) |
Bluebear
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:40 PM
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87. "Perhaps I am unclear" - - well, aren't you coy. nt |
Matsubara
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #87 |
88. Yeah, I got sucked in for a minute myself. |
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This guy doesn't give a crap about semantics, and I sure as hell don't think he cares a whit about gay rights...
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #87 |
92. I've been mistaken on usage of terms before...nt. |
trashcanistanista
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:02 PM
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MessiahRp
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:02 PM
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96. Yes. Most obvious answer ever. |
wicket
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:07 PM
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goodgd_yall
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:11 PM
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Oeditpus Rex
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:11 PM
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It could be from blind obedience to one's religious or other fucked-up teachings. I'd call that simple ignorance.
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Toasterlad
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Wed Jul-11-07 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #102 |
143. If Your Religion is Homophobic, and You Blindly Follow It, YOU'RE Homophobic, Too. |
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Not YOU you, the "you who blindly follows" you.
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Oeditpus Rex
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Wed Jul-11-07 08:17 PM
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145. Let me tell you a story |
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In 1936, Lucille Ball signed a form indicating she intended to vote Communist in the elections that year. Her grandfather was big on workers' rights, etc., and her whole family signed the form to make him happy — like, "Yeah, grandpa, whatever."
Some 17 years later, someone dug this up and leaked it to Walter Winchell, the famous radio reporter. Within hours it was in many newspapers, and Ms. Ball was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee, which was in the midst of its Hollywood witch-hunt. HUAC cleared her completely, but by your logic, she was a commie.
Have a nice day.
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Toasterlad
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Wed Jul-11-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #145 |
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It's pretty clear from your story that Lucy just signed the paper to shut the old man up...she didn't BELIEVE in communism, and my logic doesn't say she was a communist.
I'm talking about people who blindly BELIEVE anything their religion tells them to believe. If that religion is homophobic, than the people that BELIEVE it are, by default, homophobic. Seems pretty cut and dried, no?
Thanks for the good wishes.
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Oeditpus Rex
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Wed Jul-11-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #146 |
149. I guess I didn't explain very well what I meant by 'blindly' |
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I was thinking of a parishioner, or a member of an organization that claims some system of beliefs (I used to be in one), who believes A, B and E and says "Yeah, whatever" to C, D and F because they like being part of the congregation or membership or whatever.
The organization I was in had a creed of six "We believe"s, two of which I strongly disagreed with. Still, I was in the organization for 10 years because I enjoyed it, and those two "beliefs" had no bearing on that. I just considered them "Yeah, whatever."
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Toasterlad
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Thu Jul-12-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #149 |
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In your case, though, if one of those beliefs that you "yeah, whatevered" was that gays shouldn't be married, would you vote for a constitutional ammendment to ban gay marriage? Or would it depend if your vote was private or public?
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LeftishBrit
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:15 PM
Response to Original message |
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After all, it implies not even just opposition to gay marriage but regarding it as SUCH an important issue as to justify amending the Constitution. Which has only been done less than 30 times in the last 200 years, and is a difficult process. So to these people, gay marriage is not just wrong, but an IMPORTANT threat.
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Madspirit
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:47 PM
Response to Original message |
109. Yes and it also makes them a PIG OPPRESSOR! |
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How DARE you try to restrict MY LIFE. Lee
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EFerrari
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #109 |
110. Hey -- lay off pigs already! |
Madspirit
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #110 |
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Damn and I am a big animal rights person. All my pig friends are going to be SO pissed off...
Hi! :hi: Lee
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wicket
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #109 |
BlooInBloo
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #109 |
132. mmmm...... Bacon. (drool)... |
Madspirit
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Wed Jul-11-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #132 |
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Saying such things to a vegetarian. :rofl:
Someone in our neighborhood was barbecuing ribs last night. I thought I was going to die I wanted some so badly.
Lee
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BlooInBloo
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Wed Jul-11-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #138 |
151. Oddly enough, I went thru about 5 should-I-shouldn't-I cycles.... |
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... I take it it's clear how that debate ended. :)
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Madspirit
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Wed Jul-11-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message |
111. Politically/Psychologically |
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Politically a "homophobe" is ANYONE who interferes in my having ALL the rights, including the fucking right to fucking marry the woman I have spent 15 fucking years of my life with.
Psychologically a "homophobe"...(homophobia is an Anxiety Disorder)..anyway a homophobe from the shrink's view...is so afraid of their own possible homosexual tendencies, they become afraid of gays and violent toward gays. They have done psychological tests where the ones who rated the highest anti-gay have also been the ones who get erections at pictures of gay sex. For whatever reason, the way they were raised, religious beliefs, whatever, they hate it in themselves AND TAKE IT OUT ON GAYS AND LESBIANS.
So the political term is different than the psychological term.
Either way, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PIGS WHO OPPRESS ME AND MY EXISTENCE. I don't give a fuck about their religious beliefs, their political beliefs or their neurosis. Keep your nasty laws and religions off MY BODY and I DEMAND the same rights as everyone else, including the right to marry the woman I have spent 15 years of my life with.
...and fuck this query too. I wonder about anyone who has to ask.
Lee
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marmar
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:00 PM
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113. It's support for writing discrimination into the Constitution.... |
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....Homophobic is the mildest way I could describe it.
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WindRavenX
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:01 PM
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Jed Dilligan
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message |
115. Do hemophiliacs love blood? |
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If not, it seems quite possible that homophobes do something other than just fear gay people.
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Pastiche423
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:16 PM
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117. In the weeks before the IWR vote |
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The Senator Robert C. Byrd, stood alone on the senate floor w/his copy of our Constitution. This 84 year old man was trying to educate his fellow senators on the illegality of the war that they were about to vote on.
Hours on end. Day after day. Week after week he stood alone. We had Byrd Watch threads, organized by Kef. There were 19 continous threads on the day of the vote.
I love this great stateman for giving his all to stop what has turned into genocide.
I care not one whit about what he did 60 fucking years ago and has since apologized for time and time again.
It might behoove you to come into this century and read his book, Losing America, so that your ignorance is not so blatant.
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IndianaJones
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:25 PM
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119. He voted to ban gay marriage and used the n-word in this century. nt. |
Lydia Leftcoast
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #119 |
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Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 04:36 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
If you've ever been around relatives who are in their 80s, you'll know that they wear their prejudices almost as a second skin. They grew up in a time when it was socially acceptable to call all sorts of ethnic groups by derogatory nicknames. They aren't going to change, which is why it's so important to educate younger people.
This doesn't prevent most of these same people from being appalled by the Bush administration. When an 85-year-old tells you that she's never seen the U.S. government this out of control, you've got to sit up and listen. Older people DO know their history, both the history they lived through and the thorough instruction in history that they received in school.
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LanternWaste
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #119 |
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How long ago?
Does he still hold to these beliefs?
Does he still use the word "nigger"?
If not, why are they relevant?
If so, please cite the source.
These appear to me to be contextually relevant questions and by sidestepping them, one could be considered at best disingenuous, and at worst... well, something else.
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JerseygirlCT
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Wed Jul-11-07 03:31 PM
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120. It's hateful and discriminatory. Is that clear enough for you? |
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"Phobic" does imply fear. I think that might be a nicer way to describe people who'd happily prohibit others from enjoying the same basic rights they have. I'm not sure it's fear all the time. I think it's also sometimes just plain nasty hate.
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bigwillq
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:18 PM
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Lydia Leftcoast
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:22 PM
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because a person who thinks two men or two women pairing up and forming a stable household and having their relationship legally recognized with all the rights and responsibilities that accompany marriage harms them or harms society or harms anyone is seriously misinformed or stubbornly prejudiced.
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LanternWaste
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:46 PM
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128. Bigoted and un-American? Absolutely. Homophobic? In my opinion, no. |
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Bigoted and intolerant? Absolutely. Homophobic? In my opinion, no.
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bigwillq
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:50 PM
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131. Why would you say No? |
LanternWaste
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:59 PM
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135. I don't believe one necessarily has... |
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I don't believe one necessarily has to be afraid of alternative lifestyles to legislate against them. Hate, repression, jealousy, greed and repulsion could easily replace fear as the reason.
I'm using the word "homophobic" in it's most classic sense-- "fear of...".
I imagine that many individuals were not afraid of slaves in the 19th century, yet these individuals still maintained second-, third- and worse-class status for slaves. Not out of fear-- out of greed.
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ismnotwasm
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Wed Jul-11-07 06:01 PM
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139. I respectfully disagree |
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Fear was a huge factor in ownership of slaves, and has been well documented. I'm in a bit of a hurry, otherwise I'd find a decent link.
If one takes a small time out to think about it, fear is often behind almost all heinous human behavior, and certainly behind bigotry.
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BlooInBloo
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:47 PM
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129. It's thoroughly anti-gay and bigoted. Duh. |
terrya
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:49 PM
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130. To reiterate: yes, it is. End of discussion. |
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Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 04:52 PM by terrya
If you don't understand that to wish to codify bigotry into the United States Constitution is homophobic, then you're just too stupid to live.
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ismnotwasm
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Wed Jul-11-07 04:55 PM
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No matter how you define it, no matter what religion you are, no matter what political persuasion, no matter what type of education, (or lack of) no matter what personal experiences you've had, denying or rejecting marriage to two people of the same sex is homophobic.
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IEatskMeKucinich
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Wed Jul-11-07 06:51 PM
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142. it has the appearance of being homophobic, no question |
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Wed Jul-11-07 07:11 PM
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AlCzervik
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Wed Jul-11-07 08:40 PM
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147. it's assaholish is what it is, the Constitution should not be used to deny equal rights |
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and yeah maybe it's a tad homophobic as well. Gay marriage is no threat to my marriage, it doesn't diminish my marriage, hiring hookers and cheating hurts marriage.
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Wed Jul-11-07 08:42 PM
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