I don't think that the country can take too much more of this...

[coco77]

these people are saying FUCK YOU! and the Military right to our faces.. I thought a couple of years ago that people were going to do something. Maybe they have beaten them down so much that they have just given up. There is so much going on now that I think that it won't take too long, before this country will explode in one way or the other. I am hearing dissatisfaction from people in every part of this country.

[MnFats]

1. i'm afraid I agree. this is starting to smell like summer '67 or '68.

wouldn't take much to set off a 'long hot summer' even though summer's half gone...

[coco77]

2. That is exactly what this reminds me of...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

3. I agree. It's like there's a giant tsunami coming and many of us know it...

...yet we continue each day business as usual.

[Progressive_In_NC]

4. A good portion don't care as long as the pot and meth

don't stop flowing. Now if that happened, we'd have a big problem.

[porphyrian]

8. Bullshit - scapegoating.

Yes, many people who are politically apathetic also use drugs recreationally. That's because many people use drugs recreationally across the board. Blaming drug use for political apathy is factually incorrect. Political apathy is far more likely due to a combination of factors, perhaps the greatest of which is our current system's alienation of the majority of voters through lack of effective representation.

[Progressive_In_NC]

58. I was referring to what it would take for some people to truly get mad...

As long as the drugs and the fast food, and the TV aren't taken away, many people are not going to get mad enough to do anything about it.

They are all distractions from what is going on. Cops let the drugs flow because it occupies a portion of the population. Other things occupy the rest of the folks. I guess I should have been broader in my OP....sorry.

[porphyrian]

61. I think there's plenty of anger to go around, just not many effective options.

I can give myself a heart attack fighting to get someone in politics to fucking represent me and I'd likely die first. Entire generations of people feel the same. So, given the choice, I'd much rather hit a bong, too, for what good it all does. But don't for a second think people aren't angry enough to do something if they thought it would work. And they could probably do it high, anyway.

[Flying Dream Blues]

37. And a bigger number don't care as long as their cable is working.

I think the bread and circuses crowd is bigger than the drug crowd amongst the apathetic!

[Progressive_In_NC]

57. That may be the bigger problem unfortunately....

[churchofreality]

5. There is no passion from the college age kids.

They were the ones being drafted back then. These kids just play Xbox and drink.

[LiberalHeart]

6. Yep, if the young 'ens faced being drafted...

...and sent to place where they couldn't recharge their techno toys, there'd be a revolution underway right now. And Canada would be getting very, very crowded.

[Firespirit]

9. "These kids" are going to clean up this country.

"These kids" are in favor of all the liberal issues, unlike all the older generations. "These kids" are fully aware of the war and of global warming.

"These kids," however, are completely, utterly, voiceless. No money. Massive college debt. We aren't being affected by the housing bust because we live with our families or live with three roommates in an apartment, and cannot even dream of owning a house.

Protesting isn't going to solve a thing. It is WORTHLESS with an administration that does not care what the people think. People have been protesting for years, ever since before this war started. Bush isn't listening and unless he is removed from office, we're going to be in Iraq until at least 2009. If a draft is started, the ONLY result will be more dead young people and increased resentment of the military. It won't "make a point" to anyone because the neocons, the only people with the power to end this war, are not interested in what the hoi polloi think.

[churchofreality]

18. I agree the younger generation is much more progressive

But not active.

[Firespirit]

19. What would you consider "active"?

[churchofreality]

29. I'd like to see them in the streets.

[Firespirit]

38. See above about protesting.

It DOES NOT WORK anymore against these people. This isn't the 1970s. The government is run by people who do not care what anyone thinks of them. The actions of Bush every day demonstrate that. He and his cronies and goons thumb their noses in the faces of America. People have been protesting this since 2002, in the thousands. They don't care.

I don't know what WILL work, honestly. I've come to the conclusion that the neocon ideology is a cancer on politics, and that by its very nature, those who espouse it will not listen to anyone else. Although its motives are secular (control of resources), the neocons have a religious zeal and the unshakable faith of the fundamentalists. People like that can't be reasoned with or talked to, and they won't listen to your point of view. A fundy proselytizing the neighborhood isn't going to listen to a Wiccan woman who wants to discuss her faith. It's a similar situation with the neocons. They can't be expected to listen to anyone, so they should, like the fundies, just be kept out of power.

[MnFats]

68. it CAN work if massive protests occur in multiple cities/campuses...

... i am thinking spring 1972.
the streets and campuses were FILLEd with protesters and the phrase was "no business as usual."
that is, day-to-day operations going on, ignoring the atrocious war in V.N., were not to continue.
Millions -- yes, millions, i mean tens of thousands on big campuses and thousands at small colleges, spilled into the streets and paralyzed business.
Big Ten schools like Minn, Wisc. and Mich. had more than 50,000 in the streets. Some had more like 100,000 -- obviously communities JOINED the students......the message got across, believe me. Black communities and old lefties joined in, too.

[mitchtv]

55. They could try voting

I know. I know it takes effort , but once or twice for a start, see how it feels They don't fucking vote, they can just STFU

[churchofreality]

66. Great point.

[coco77]

21. Let them start the draft...

I will bet you will see active then and it won't be the type of activity that they want.

[porphyrian]

12. Bullshit - stereotyping.

If you don't think college kids are passionate about politics, you aren't spending any time with them. Don't drag out that tired boomer - who - hasn't - dealt - with - their - own - problems - with - their - kids - and - have - decided - to - blame - an - entire - generation - instead crap about all college kids only caring about getting drunk. Just like any other arbitrarily defined group, there are a variety of interests, behaviors and political activity among those in college, and not all of them are kids, either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Our local political groups

are made up largely of baby boomers like me who were also active during the Vietnam war and have been active since then. We rarely have any college aged kids come to any of our activities. We have tried very hard to recruit from that age group and have had little success. I am not going to argue with you and say these 20 somethings have no passion, but I can report that in my city, they don't come to our rallies or vigils or speeches or free movies or planning meetings. And not because they haven't been invited.

[coco77]

32. Mention the draft..

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. We have

They are unfortunately too young to remember and understand how bad a draft can be.

[coco77]

36. Well, I say drastic times call for drastic measures..

I use pictures and give examples so the young people I know are well aware.

[Firespirit]

41. There won't be a draft.

My god. The lack of a grip on reality is astounding. They don't NEED a draft. A draft would only mean thousands of people were forcibly conscripted against their will to fight a war they hated, and it would destroy the military. A military rebellion would be totally against what the neocons want. They will keep the existing U.S. military stretched thin, pulling back as many reserves as they can, and if/when they feel the need, they'll deploy Blackwater as the paid mercenary police state enforcers here on the Homeland.

It's not the 1970s anymore. The dynamics are completely different.

[coco77]

46. I didn't say I want the draft or that we need it...

I said use this as tactic to wake some of them up, because if he hits Iran I believe they will start talking about the draft.

[Firespirit]

51. I don't. I really don't.

I think that they are making tentative plans to pull out of Iraq now. There are whispers of it, in fact, there was concern on this very forum that the Republicans would get out and claim credit for it, with the full aid of the media of course. That seems very realistic to me. I am of the opinion that the next president (with two exceptions from the current crop), whether Republican or Democrat, will withdraw from Iraq -- if for nothing else than for political necessity. And it's the Republican whispers of withdrawal that make me fear for the Iran aspect. They'd use the same soldiers who just came out of Iraq. It'd be an absolute slaughter, of course, but I still don't see a draft. By the time a draft is a possibility, I think we'd have far worse things to worry about, because I think there'd be another attack and the Blackwater would be deployed around the country. Compulsory military service would be part of a fascist state, but I don't think it would be implemented until we were already seriously screwed. By that time, the draft itself would be almost an afterthought.

[porphyrian]

34. You've named your problem.

Of course college students aren't flocking to boomer organizations to prove their politics to you, and you are only going to them as far as to convince them to come to you and work on your terms. You've got to think outside of that box if you're serious about working with most college students. Otherwise, you're just someone else's parents to them, trying to get them to talk with you.

[Firespirit]

44. Some people need to get out of the 1970s.

These sorts of groups may have worked well in the 1970s. But what's going on today is completely different. The Nixon administration was a trial run, so to speak, and the neocons who want to turn the U.S. into an colonialist fascist state learned from their mistakes of that era.

Those kids most likely see those groups for what they are, quaint relics revived by people who see today as a repeat of the Nixon/Vietnam/Watergate era. It isn't any such thing. It is far more sinister.

[coco77]

48. I agree especially..

with that last sentence..

[porphyrian]

53. Well, it may not be entirely different, but there are differences that must be acknowledged.

But if we're going to work together, we can't simply yell across the generation gap and give up when they don't come to us, or vice versa. Maybe we need something everyone likes, like food. Why don't we have massive pot luck cookouts or something instead of making clubs and wishing people would join? Pass a joint, something. I don't know. I'm not the uniter. But I agree that the whole protest thing often feels like a historical reenactment more than a real tool for change, and we aren't the only ones who feel that way.

[coco77]

20. I let young people who I am associated with...

know what is going on whenever I am in contact so that they know what is at stake.

[porphyrian]

7. We've survived a civil war and various social revolutions, why not this?

There's going to be some conflict where neither side will give in, but there's no reason to think the country can't take it. Change is coming in a big way, but that only hurts if you resist it.

[blues90]

11. It depends on what sort of change people are expected to accept

This is not the same world as it was even during vietnam . People cannot just sit back and not resist changes they cannot live with , this sounds like lockstep to me or take it or die trying .

I don't feel you can compare this time to any other time in american history , we now live in a rapidly changing high tech world where many can't keep up , not through stupidity but through extreme changes in mindset that they were not prepared to face so soon , and not without a government who refuses to represent them .

There is nothing wrong with resisting change if the change is damaging .

Look where we are now because we did not resist .

[porphyrian]

16. I didn't say change was always good, and you actually proved my point.

We have been resisting the change you speak of (which isn't the change I mentioned, I was talking about the coming revolution, whatever form that will take), and we've definitely been damaged by the effort as well as by the change itself.

It is never the same world as it was before, that's nothing new. However, we are creatures of (stupid) habit, and we very predictably repeat certain patterns throughout history. It's just as silly to act as if we can know nothing about what will happen as it is to act as if we know everything about it. I made neither claim.

[blues90]

23. I did not realize you were refering to a form of revolution

I took what you said from the one post . If I made your point , ok .

[porphyrian]

25. Revolution is just a fancy name for big change. Call it what you want. - n/t

[coco77]

22. I think that the country is different,..

and we have a different mixture of people more cultures, and many more weapons or devices that will change how things will occur.

[porphyrian]

28. The country is always different when we repeat a pattern predictably.

That doesn't mean things will happen differently, or the same, for that matter. What I'm saying is that there's no reason to believe the country can't handle it or won't survive it, given our track record. If you look at what our ancestors survived to get us here, it's a little arrogant to think ours is the greatest struggle ever faced and a little insulting to imply that we're doomed to fail.

[coco77]

35. The GOP has pitted so many groups against each other...

that I don't see how we can work together. Also, I think that there are a lot of people in this country who don't give a damn about this country. A lot of the people in this country have more of an allegiance to there former country and don't see themselves as americans, and I am not talking about any specific race.

[porphyrian]

42. What you reap is what you sew.

If you're giving up because we aren't all holding hands, singing Kumbaya and acting in unison then you're just giving up on reality. We are a diverse country, a diverse people, with a diverse spectrum of beliefs and opinions. And we, the Democratic party, are the party of diversity among the diverse. But we can and do work together. Don't believe the lie that we don't or can't. That's spin, and it ignores the evidence to the contrary.

The bit about "allegiance to former counties" is also a load of horseshit. For every person you can point to that feels that way, I can point to a thousand immigrant families that prove that to be a racist lie. Don't repeat that spin, either.

Most of us will survive whatever happens, and it won't be any more or less important than any of the other monumental events humanity has survived. Don't lose hope right before you get to be part of it.

[coco77]

49. I think that you may believe that but...

there are certain parts of this country that are never heard from or thought of and you don't know what they are thinking. I am not talking about whether we will survive or not, I am talkin about this country is not as close together as you may think,neighbors don't even talk to each other.

[porphyrian]

54. If they're never heard from or thought of, you don't know what they're thinking, either.

And if you do know, then aren't you contradicting yourself?

Which neighbor is to blame when neighbors don't talk to each other?

[coco77]

56. That is the problem...

we don't know what they are thinking and we don't know who is in the country. You are trying to be funny with that last sentence aren't you because I am not talking about myself.

[porphyrian]

59. Actually, the last sentence was the serious one.

I don't want you to take this as an insult, but you sound paranoid. We do know most of the people in this country, and the ones who have bothered to go to the trouble of remaining undetected most likely wish to continue to remain so. The boogey people aren't lying in wait to get us now any more than at any other time in our history, and those who are remain less than a percent of the total population. You should be more worried about driving in a car.

[coco77]

60. I hope you don't take this as an insult...

but you don't what in the hell you are talking about,its not about being paranoid you may think that you we know who is here but we don't. I am not afraid of a shit.

[porphyrian]

62. So much for not taking it as an insult.

I didn't say you were afraid, I said you are acting paranoid. Your response strengthens the evidence that I may be right.

Sorry, I do know what in the hell I'm talking about. If you know something you're not saying and aren't willing to talk about, you shouldn't have brought it up at all. Otherwise, you're just waving a boogey man around and expecting us to take it seriously.

And I'm glad you're not afraid of a shit.

[coco77]

65. Really I don't give a damn if you take it seriously or not.

What boogey man, who am I trying to frighten you with. Anything I was trying to say was said in my post I really don't get your point especially this garbage about me trying to scare everybody or that I am paranoid. Paranoid about what.

[porphyrian]

67. Why are you trying to fight with me?

Stop being defensive. You'll know if I attack you.

There may be people here that we don't know about, but there aren't that many, and most of us are in a greater danger of being struck by lightening than ever meeting them. You seem to be saying there is a shadow army ready to strike that we don't know about, and that there's no getting along with them. That's textbook paranoia. Look it up if you still don't get it.

[The_Commonist]

10. We need to kill capitalism...

...at least the corrupt crony kind.

And the kids DO know what's going on, and they despise it. They just don't know where to begin. The power is stacked so much against them, that it seems insurmountable, so they anesthetize. But it's not.

We need to stop giving the corrupt our dollars. The kids get this...

[porphyrian]

17. Kill corporatism, not capitalism.

Corporatism is what every anti-capitalist points to when demonizing capitalism itself.

[defendandprotect]

43. Capitalism and corporatism are the same thing now --

The people's government have the power to raise and end corporations --
we should use it.

Capitalism has used corporatism to move elitism into government --

Capitalism is an invention of the Catholic Church to run their papal states when FEUDALISM failed to be sufficient --


There are positive uses of corporations as long as they are under the full control of a people's government -- i.e., we could raise corporations to produce the electric cars which Detroit doesn't want to make, presuming that Detroit is run by the oil industry.

We could subsidize the production of electric cars and get them on our highways in weeks --
and replace all the gas-guzzlers in five years.

We could also subsidize the purchase of these cars at the buying end --



At the moment, one of the best instruments of protest against the oil industry and the car manufacturers -- and capitalism -- is the CAR!!!

Let's use it in protests. Pull it over and park it for periods of time as a protest against the war.
Don't buy gas for 24 hours or more -- as a protest.

[porphyrian]

50. No, they are not the same thing. Equating the two is a propagandistic lie.

I don't care if you personally don't like capitalism, but don't spread lies about it. Capitalism hasn't used anything, corporatists have used corporatism to buy political influence, usurp power and raid the treasury.

Corporations were originally formed to deal with single projects, such as the building of a specific bridge, after which they were dissolved. The greedy rich changed that as a way to protect their wealth from things like taxes and to continue making money. However, they retain a legal responsibility (not specifically worded, but with legal precedent) to deliver a profit to their stockholders, and most do so with disregard to much of anything else, often at everyone else's expense. Corporations as currently defined, not simply the private ownership of property (capitalism), are the problem.

[defendandprotect]

69. Capitalism was invented by the Vatican to succeed Feudalism...

Well, is capitalism working for America?
Or . . . has this "ridiculous King-of-the-Hill System" moved most wealth into the hands of the few?
While impoverishing much of the nation?

When the Supreme Court found that corporations are "people" then they took corporations out of their original meaning and created a new opportunity for the elites who could now disguise themselves as "corporations." Presiously, they have been disgused as "Royalty."

This buying of government by elites is nothing new --
corporate-fascism is nothing new and underpins WWII and the holocaust.

No -- our government still holds power over corporations -- but does not exercise the power.

We don't seem to be too much in disagreement here --

And, I'll add, again -- FDR saved capitalism by regulating it.
Unregulated capitalism, which the Republicans have returned us to, is merely organized crime.

[Firespirit]

13. I saw V for Vendetta for the first time (yes, don't hurt me) the other night

It's weighing heavily on me, because I have also sensed the "powder keg" state of affairs. I think it's intimately related to why so many people are considering Independent or third party candidacies, too -- frustration with what they perceive as the status quo. What's happening is that the American people are voting "No Confidence" in virtually every American institution. What this will result in, I cannot say.

[coco77]

24. Some think that it will be like it was in the past ...

I don't think so , I too am think about voting for OTHER.

[churchofreality]

30. I like the part when Natalie Portman was in the little schoolgirl uniform

j/k, not really.

[DinahMoeHum]

14. Well, there ARE some measures to take. . .

but they are not fit to be mentioned here.

"...what we can't say we can breathe right in your ear..."

:evilfrown:

[bdamomma]

15. the US is like a pressure cooker right now.

[coco77]

26. You can feel it and...

it is like a heartbeat beating slow and the tensions are getting stronger and stronger, especially when we watch the arrogance of Bush and Cheney. It makes me angry because Bush is one dumb motherfucker who thinks that he is smarter than everyone else.

[blues90]

27. It certainly is

You have to wonder what will explode next and then wonder why it did explode . We are a torn country without a government .

[Wiley50]

39. It's Frickin' Paralysing Me

I can't leave my 'puter screen afraid I'll
miss seeing it in time enough to do something
to be able to roll with the changes

In the meantime nothing gets done
I'm not eating right or even bathing often enough
or taking the frickin' trash out

DU and Nova M and CSPAN from when I awake at six
until midnight when I fall asleep after Malloy
and leave it online all night
waking at 2,3 or 4 am to check in

I wish it would fucking blow already!

[blues90]

45. Many times I wish I was ignorent to all of this crap

I too wish it would just explode already , at least then you would know where you stood or if there was a place to stand .

[Wiley50]

47. I hear you. same here n/t

[defendandprotect]

40. As you saw from Wolf Blitzer/CNN the other day . .. the lies march on .. .

and the barricades which are keeping the MSM under wraps are still up --

while they work on barricading the internet!!!

We have to break thru before that happens --

[Rosa Luxemburg]

52. I guess we'll all have to put our money together and buy CNN out

poor old Wolfie, unemployed!

[defendandprotect]

70. Just turn off the TV's . . . that will work --

[Rosa Luxemburg]

72. but people won't turn their TV off

[conscious evolution]

63. Time to scream NO,FUCK YOU right back

at their sorry ass's.
Nothing shakes up those in power more than the masses giving them rhetorical kicks in the balls.

[nini]

64. we're tougher than they are .. it just takes a while to wake up obviously

the shit is hitting the fan now.

[Dark]

71. America's survived it's fucking capital being burned to the ground.

We'll pull through.