So Cindy Sheehan is now planning to take on John Conyers? What a sad creature she has become.

[Obamarama]

She's planning another one of her splendiferous sit-ins at John Conyer's office. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3370855)

JOHN CONYERS!!????!!! I've kept my big trap shut on Cindy in regards to the "running against Pelosi" brouhaha, but I'm sorry....this woman is one sad, deluded creature if she thinks she needs to try to admonish John Conyers. Her rage has obviously blinded her to reality.

I was behind her 100% when she was attacking Bush. I didn't totally agree with her Code Pink stuff, and I rolled my eyes when the "run against Pelosi" stunt came about, but I kept my mouth shut because I don't know what lengths I would go to if I lost a child in Bush's illegal war.

But to go off on a man who has proven time and time again he is on our side is beyond the pale.

THE WOMAN IS OFF HER FRIGGIN' ROCKER.

[ruggerson]

1. She is a wacked publicity hound

Her agenda is herself and her pseudo celebrity.

Utterly pathetic.

[rsmith6621]

3. And People Like Randi Rhodes and Steph Miller

Do nothing to help her see that reality......They unfortunately use her as a prop..

[JackBeck]

15. Better add Melissa Etheridge to your list of enablers.

[helderheid]

What a shitty thing to say. I think it's more she's unhinged with grief.

[EFerrari]

175. There's nothing unhinged about asking the Judiciary Chair to impeach.

Now, if she asked Duncan Hunter to impeach, that would be nuts.

:rofl:

[helderheid]

186. Excellent point! :P

[susanna]

298. I GET the grief thing.

I lost someone in this war, too. No, not a son, but one of the very, very best friends I've ever known. That hurt pretty damn bad to me - enough so that I know I don't EVER want to know what losing a son feels like. :-(

However, I generally agree with the original poster. Grieving does not give you carte blanche to do just anything you want. That's not how it works. The more she loses focus from her obvious issue - the senselessness of the war in Iraq - the more she seems as if she's doing some of these things unthinkingly, and even as if she's "unhinged with grief" (your take). Unfortunately, in our culture, unhinged is unhinged. It's that simple. She undermines herself in some ways, whether she realizes it or not.

All of the above is MHO, anyway. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the larger picture, but as in the case of the original poster, I respect John Conyers in so many ways. I will stand up for him as well.

[helderheid]

337. I'm not saying it does. I don't know what it is like to lose a son as it hasn't happened to me. I'm

saying it is conceivable to me that this grief and this lack of resolution could have pushed ME over the edge.

[RFKJr4PRES]

354. John Conyers led the effort on Impeachment before the election

After the election, he said that was enough accountability. His position makes no sense. He must clarify why he lied before the election and why the judiciary committee is having to go on without his help.

[jtrockville]

393. I contributed to his campaign. I'd like to know why he lied too. (nt)

[sniffa]

384. better than being a fucking asshoLe

[shance]

396. Thank you.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. She's redressing her government for grievances?!

What an animal!

[Mandate My Ass]

6. I don't get it either

the Cindy hate here is unbelievable. :shrug:

[assclown_bush]

19. It boggles the mind. Cindy was an idol only a year ago...now she is a pariah on DU

It's sad to see that a cruel mob mentality does not bypass DU. I may not agree with the woman on certain issues, but she has my sympathy and my respect for all the work she has done in the anti-war movement. To call her crazy (as some do on these Cindy threads) and to refer to her as a creature is something I expected to find on a freeper site, not on DU.

Sad.

[Obamarama]

33. Don't even go there.....

I may have not always agreed with some of Cindy's tactics but I have never been guilty of "mob mentality." I've kept my mouth shut and wondered what I might be motiviated to do if I lost a child in a treasonous war.

But JOHN CONYERS? The woman deserves to be dressed down for pulling such a cheap stunt as this.

[Mandate My Ass]

44. Somehow I don't see you being judge of whom is in need of a dressing

down. In any capacity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Or deciding what a "cheap stunt" is.

Or "mob mentality" for that matter.

[Obamarama]

54. I don't doubt that....

Because if you can't see this woman looks ridiculous and pathetic for going after John Conyers, then I don't think you see much at all.

[assclown_bush]

55. refering to Cindy as a "creature" is hardly laudable...

I don't care how much rancor she may have stirred within you. I too disagree with her on her plan to take on Conyers and Pelosi and for some of the things she has written. But, she is not a "creature". I still afford her some respect.

[susanna]

302. I have never posted about her either.

Because I UNDERSTOOD what she was doing.

This time, though, it just finally got to me. I agree with your summation, lonely though that may end up on this thread for both of us.

Signed, a fellow Michiganian

[Chovexani]

342. Well, it's three of us

I've supported her 100% in her efforts against the war. Even though I may not always agree with her tactics I totally support her in where she's coming from. Pelosi--again, I don't agree with it but, well, more power to her if she thinks it'll make a difference.

But if she seriously thinks John Conyers--one of the most progressive members of the House, a senior statesmen in damn near the only group of Democrats who've actually stood up to Bush (the CBC)--is not on the people's side and doesn't have a plan? WTF-ever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

321. Conyers is refusing to impeach!!

As far as I am concerned, he is the one pulling a cheap stunt. Remember the hearing in the basement in the winter of 2005? What happened to THAT John Conyers? He is the one who needs to be dressed down!!

[orleans]

353. but...perhaps she sees conyers as more of an ally

she knows he is the one who can help her and help the rest of this country

you know, she can't go up to him, grab onto him, grab his lapels or his coat sleeve and beg him and scream and cry--but she can do what she's doing.

put yourself in her position--your child is dead, this war goes on, the man who sent your child to die has no repercussions, and he continues to send more children to their deaths.

what would you do?

i'd want to run up to conyers, crying, screaming, begging, holding onto him in desperation--holding onto him until he could read my fucking mind, feel what i feel, see my nightmares, and be devastated along with me. and i would cling to him until i could feel his strength, and feel him pull me up from this abyss of despair i'd be drowning in. and i would cry out to him: MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP!

but i couldn't do that. and neither can she. but she can go to washington and go to his office and protest and be heard.

if this was me--if this was my daughter this happened to i would like to think i would have the determination/perseverance/strength to do what cindy has done and continues to do.

but i'm afraid i would probably shrivel up and die.

what would you do?

[nosmokes]

409. So you installed yourself *Judge ~o~ Cheap Stunts* and decided to

dress her down eh? I like Conyers too, but me, I'm with Cindy on this one. She's right and righteous andI'll back her all the way. I'm sorry John decided to qualify his definition of Semper Fi.

[ruggerson]

50. Try again

I wrote an OP a couple of years ago where I said she did not speak for me.

The mob mentality then were the people who were defending her insanities.
DU was totally taken in by her at that point.

I haven't changed my opinion of her one iota, but glad to see she's finally being seen for what she is.

[creeksneakers2]

89. Sheehan's supporters keep trying to confuse people

Sheehan's anti-war efforts and her assistance to Republicans are two entirely different issues. Cindy used to be against Bush. Now she's helping him.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

120. awferfucksakes

:eyes: what an asinine post :eyes:

[creeksneakers2]

190. Brilliant refutation

I suppose that's all you had.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

281. Stupid, empty, pitiful accusation. I suppose that's all you have.

I don't know you. Glad, I don't know you.

[Maat]

335. I agree - sad post.

There is no need to attack Cindy for her activism; Conyers is more than capable to address the issue.

I support Cindy, and encourage her to keep speaking out.

[defendandprotect]

350. DLC Dems are aiding the Repugs by not standing against war

and for impeachment --

DLC Dems seem to want us to stay in Iraq --

And to keep Cheney/Bush in the White House --

Why?

[Spoonerian]

381. Because soon the power will be theirs.

Soon they will run the gulag and be the deciders of whom to declare enemy combatants. Soon the Democratic Kissingers and Rice's (i.e., the Brezenskis and Albrights) will get their hands on the levers of the big machine.

How many of the Intolerable Acts (Patriot, Military Commissions, War Appropriations, ...) have they repealed? Oh yeah, none!

Oh it will be a kinder and gentler Empire with the Democrats at the helm. Maybe they'll blockade and starve Iran for 8 years before being forced to hand over the keys to the big terror machine back over to Jeb and the "adults."

[0007]

184. A pariah, LOL!

Your certainly not speaking for me or most of the folks here on DU.

Cindy Sheehan has did more good than harm. As I'm more than sure that John Conyers will receive her advice graciously. Lighting little fires may be what's needed to speed things up a bit. Sad? Not by a long shot my friend

[yurbud]

345. it's not a mob. Its a loud minority with a fairly transparent agenda. they figure if they start

these threads often enough, it will look like opinion has turned against Cindy, and somehow, that will make us forget about impeachment and ending the war too.

the only thing I can't figure out is if they are Republican or Democratic congressional staffers.

[ronnykmarshall]

388. I hear that.

I don't always agree with Cindy, but I do respect and love her.

[Individualist]

DLC detests Cindy, Michael Moore, and all things progressive

[Alexander]

161. I would think the DLC loves Cindy. She reflects badly on other anti-war people.

Because she constantly makes huge PR blunders and demonstrates that she has little to no knowledge of history.

[Individualist]

172. Despicable cheap shot!

Cindy scares the hell out of DLC because of her grassroots support.

[Alexander]

206. What grassroots support?

Cindy's remaining support continues to dwindle with each blunder she makes.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

305. Lies? Like "Democrats started every war in the 20th Century"?

Incidentally, calling me a liar is against DU rules. :hi:

[LittleClarkie]

329. Or how about "The Democratic Party is the party of slavery"

Goodness I hope our token darkies get wind of that one. They might conclude it's better to be Republican, like Lincoln.

[LittleClarkie]

311. And anyone who would stifle discussion in such away is likewise beneath contempt

I've not even heard her commment on the anti-war legislation that will be introduced this week. She's not campaigning against the war now. She's campaigning for impeachment. She's playing a game of bait and switch.

She does not get unconditional support for every little thing she does or says because she is a grieving mom, unless you're ready to give that same support to a freeper mom who's also lost a child.

She is not the messiah, for fuck's sake. And after her recent insults to the Dem Party, she can kiss my shiny metal ass.

[LittleClarkie]

308. What grassroots support

According to polls, she has about as much support as Congress at this point.

Pelosi actually polls higher than she does, and higher than Congress.

[proud2BlibKansan]

325. What poll is that?

Please post a link to this poll showing Cindy Sheehan's approval ratings.

I won't hold my breath.

[LittleClarkie]

327. Here you go:

Cindy's:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/cindy_sheehan_22_favorable_50_unfavorable

Nancy's:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/pelosi_39_favorable

Give or take a few points, I'm sure, and a few points perhaps if you think that Rasmussen is slanted.

I say again, what support?

Even on DU it seems her most recent pronouncements have eroded much of her support here. People don't like to be insulted.

[proud2BlibKansan]

331. A 9 point drop in 2 years

BFD.

And funny that you would comment that people don't like to be insulted yet insulting Cindy is a new pastime here on DU. :eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

332. I haven't insulted her

But I'm also not down with absolutely everything she says or does. Most people aren't insulting her. But many here are saying that while they used to support her, her recent words and actions have changed their minds. Still has sympathy, but not as much unconditional support as she once did here.

[Yukari Yakumo]

356. Bookmarked

This should be the death knell for any "Cindy Helps the Cause" argument.

Her approval rating is worse than Chimpy's. That definitely should tell anyone not to hitch onto her trailer. She is a pariah.

[ronnykmarshall]

389. Ooooo neato!

A rightwing cartoon!

:eyes:

[Moochy]

135. downright encouraged it would seem n/t

[treestar]

415. It is totally believable - she attacks the Democrats and this is

Democratic Underground.

[EFerrari]

8. LOL!

:rofl:

[Mika]

9. Agreed. It is an outrage.

Seeking representation. Phooey! ;)

[JackBeck]

12. Here, here!

Why confront those more likely to initiate change?

:eyes:

[mzmolly]

27. She's undressing a Libertarian from what I've heard?

Not sure if she's an animal or not, but she is "fair game?" ;)

[EFerrari]

32. Anybody we know?!

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

42. Well I don't know him.

But he looks very "naughty." LOL

[ProudDad]

280. C'mon you're getting stupid

We're NOT going to take your word for this calumny.

Link, Please?

If not, take it to www.freerepublic.com where it belongs...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Now back to our regularly scheduled Cindy Sheehan hatefest....

[mzmolly]

285. I think Free Republic is more in line with Libertarian thinking than we are, no?

And why is it a "calumny" to shag a Libertarian?

However, it's not MY word. To my understanding, Cindy's former sister in law made these interesting claims? Heck, I'm not saying it's true, I highly doubt all of what I've read is true. However, Cindy is a friend of Lew Rockwells, and he is a noted Libertarian. She also ranted recently against paying taxes from what another DU-er told me? Sooooo? 2 + 2 = XXX see, made another funny!

In fact, I chuckled aloud at both my sick jokes. ;) HA! I amuse myself, that's why I'm here.

:hi:

[ProudDad]

290. Absolutely

"HA! I amuse myself, that's why I'm here."

If we can't keep our senses of humor, why bother!!!!!

Great Response!!! :hi: :hi:

Who knows?

After Carvel and Matalin -- I'm not easily surprised at what hormones can do to intellect... :rofl: :rofl:

[mzmolly]

296. Hey that was good!

The Carville/Matalin thing.

If only Carville and Crawford had hooked up first? Ok ENOUGH!

[proud2BlibKansan]

328. Oh so she can't be friends with a libertarian?

Who knew?

Oh and that sister in law was estranged from Cindy's family and never even knew Casey. But if her slander works for you, then go for it. :hi:

[mzmolly]

336. Now, did I say that?

As for the sister in law, who knows? If what she says is true, it's interesting and perhaps relevant if Cindy is to run for office as surely it will be mentioned?

Frankly, I dont care who cindy befriends, I just dont wish to see these boards used to unwittingly support a Libertarian in sheeps clothing ya know?

For example, did Cindy call taxes "un-constitutional?" If so, I'd say that "Libertarian friend" may be rubbing off a bit?

Peace Proud2blib :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

352. The sister in law was acting like an attention whore

and cashing in on Cindy's notoriety. She is a repuke and was not close to Cindy or her kids. So I don't take anything she says as fact.

There is a movement encouraging people to not pay taxes to support the war. I picked up some flyers about it at the UFPJ conference in June. But they are in my briefcase in my car right now and I am too lazy to go out and get them. That is probably what Cindy was talking about.

[mzmolly]

386. Here is a portion Cindy's statement:

... The Democrats are the party of slavery and were the party that started every war in the 20th Century except the other Bush debacle. The Federal Reserve, permanent federal (and unconstitutional) income taxes, Japanese Concentration Camps and, not one, but two atom bombs dropped on the innocent citizens of Japan were brought to us via the Democrats.

Don’t tell me the Democrats are our “Saviors” because I am not buying it especially after they bought and purchased more caskets and more devastating pain when they financed and co-facilitated more of George’s abysmal occupation and they are allowing a melt down of our representative Republic by allowing the evils of the executive branch to continue unrestrained by their silent complicity. Good change has happened during Democratic regimes, but as in the civil rights and union movements, the positive changes occurred because of the people not the politicians.

I like the response at this blog: http://newpairodimes.blogspot.com/2007/07/cindy-sheehan-has-jumped-shark.html

LBJ, love him or hate him, worked his ass off getting the civil rights bill passed. Democrats in congress have worked tirelessly for peace. Income taxes are unconstitutional? What are you a libertarian now? The democratic party, like America, has many things to apologize for in it's past. But this list is so dishonest, that I am shocked this wasn't cribbed from an Ann Coulter column. As a democrat, I am offended, and since you will be running as an independent against my speaker, good riddance to you.

Bye Cindy. Thanks for your passion about ending this war. But, I have had quite enough of you now.

I tend to agree with the trifectaa on this.

Let me add that if Cindy runs as an Inde, she and her supporters in that crusade, should not expect support at "Democratic" Underground. You may wish to start a small place of support in anticipation?

Just a suggestion.

Peace P2b.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. How dare she!

Dammit that is unamerican.

[leftchick]

51. Shocking!

I am sure it has never happened before..... :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Look at those uppity creatures!

I'm somewhat sympathetic to their cause, but if they're going to complain about it, they should do it in the proper places!

[TreasonousBastard]

4. So, if by some miracle she actually wins Pelosi's seat...

she'll have just how how many friends and allies in the House?

[uppityperson]

5. how DARE they petition Conyers to support impeachment!! The sheer AUDACITY!!!11

So?

[creeksneakers2]

96. Repeat the strawman

Nobody said Cindy can't petition Conyers. She's attacking him and helping Bush. She's vandalizing efforts to put Bush in check and end the war. She's on THEIR side now. That's why I am complaining.

Show me where somebody said she has no right to petition.

[knowledgeispwr]

130. Thank you.

I don't think ANYONE has said she has no right to petition Conyers. Many of us are just questioning the wisdom and effectiveness of that move.

Asking about statements/actions or even disagreeing with them is NOT the same thing as saying the person doesn't have the right to do it. Those who respond sarcastically with something like "how dare she exercise her rights" are avoiding the issues brought up.

[Yukari Yakumo]

357. I've noticed that.

Whenever anyone questions a Cindybot of Cindy's motives or about what she said lately, they do their damnedest to avoid the issue, usually resorting to insults or non-sequitur.

[uppityperson]

204. I see it differently. eom

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. We have fascists in the White House... this is no time for etiquette

And Cindy Sheehan doesn't give a @#$!# what anyone says. It's time to REBEL! To get out on the STREETS! Not to have an afternoon social.

[Omphaloskepsis]

11. Turn that into a sign and go stand in the street.

[Obamarama]

13. Oh please....

"And Cindy Sheehan doesn't give a @#$!# what anyone says." Wow, now that's stating the obvious.

Yeah, it is time to rebel, but not against those who are on our side. Rebellion is fine with me. Misguided temper-tantrums are juvenile and foolish.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. LOL

"Misguided temper-tantrums are juvenile and foolish."

That begs the question...

[EFerrari]

36. "Misguided temper-tantrums are juvenile and foolish."

Now, turn that into a sign and join me in GD.

lol

In fact, I'm going to steal that for my sig line but you will get full credit!

:hi:

[GeorgeGist]

38. Oh please yourself ...

you wouldn't make a decent pimple on an activists ass.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

72. Let me explain something

I think that when we tell our Dem politicians to STAND UP and GROW A PAIR, we are doing 2 things:

1) Telling them that if they stick their neck out, WE'LL BE THERE!
2) Telling them what we WANT them to do as public servants.

They were hired to do our bidding, not because we thought they'd look cute warming a Congressional seat. I think half the time, Dem politicians are SCARED of sticking their neck out because for so long we Dems said nothing, did nothing, and were like F bumps on logs. Well, that time is over. We have fascists in the White House. THE TIME FOR SILENCE IS GONE!

[wildbilln864]

227. well said Sarah! eom

[paulk]

276. then she should picket the White House

not John Conyer's office.

[yurbud]

346. yep. you don't have time to be polite when you are drowning. And the asshat that started thread is

throwing rocks instead of liferings.

[seemslikeadream]

10. Yes please we must remain good Germans, I mean good Americans

We're only committing genocide in Iraq, what's a little person to do?

We must remain silent until there's at least 2 or 3 million dead

[creeksneakers2]

100. Cindy is the one demanding obedience

She's going after people who are on her side if they aren't obedient enough. She even gave Pelosi a deadline.

[seemslikeadream]

124. no sweetheart she's trying to STOP the genocide

[creeksneakers2]

149. No

She's helping Republicans, who want wars in Iraq,Iran, and dozens of other places.

[seemslikeadream]

153. sure whatever

:eyes:

Early every year the seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before their leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Shut your mouth then how can you know ?
For seeds you cannot hear may not be there
Seeds you cannot see may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow high they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Every day another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognise a warning?

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do



If fascism is slowly climbing back



It's not here yet so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It'll soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and never dare
And if it happens here they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Seeger

[Yukari Yakumo]

358. Then why isn't she picketing Rethugs who want to continue the war. nt

[sniffa]

391. i remember a coworker in 2003 asking

how come you Lefties never protest saddam hussein?

[shance]

400. What planet do you reside on?

What an pathetically accusatory and misleading excuse for rational. You've got some nerve lying about someone who's son was killed dying for a lie.

But you don't care.

You only care when something affects YOU.

You know what?

Its not all about YOU.

[spoony]

320. Or good Sheehan supporters

No matter how insane her stunts become.

[seemslikeadream]

349. Sheehan is not responsible for Iraqi genocide

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. I'm for hassling any and all Dems until they do their friggin' job and

defend the Constitution.

They weren't elected to play nicey-nice with Bush. They were elected to oppose him.

[KittyWampus]

are you suggesting CONYERS hasn't been doing his job?

[VP505]

164. Did you see the

hearing that Conyers chaired that the Republics ran today???

[proud2BlibKansan]

334. I am not suggesting that Conyers is not doing his job

I am coming right out and saying he is NOT DOING HIS JOB.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Bravo for her!! Holding the government to account is what citizens are supposed to do.

Oh, wait, Conyers is a Democrat, therefore immune.

Just like LBJ was.

[Dogmudgeon]

18. I thought she was after Pelosi

It's getting so hard to keep track these days.

--p!

[mzmolly]

30. I thought it was Feinstein?

:P

[Yukari Yakumo]

359. That's Friday {nt}

[mzmolly]

387. That's an interesting graphic.

I applaud your courage. LOL :hi:

[karlrschneider]

109. She will be going after Paul Wellstone next week.

:eyes:

[Jack Bone]

20. So how far are you walking for Justice?

How many miles are YOU willing to walk?

step up...suit up...whatever...

This woman's had ENOUGH...evidently, you're not there yet...I understand...that much is apparent.

[Obamarama]

24. There's a difference between walking for justice and walking off a cliff...

So don't be a lemming.

[Jack Bone]

26. Newsflash:: We're already off the cliff

..this no longer is a Government of the people by the people..

wake up...DO SOMETHING!!

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Yes and what are you doing as an example for us lemmings?

'cause I need some help here regarding what we can do to end this nightmare. Do you have any suggestions other than whacking those who's actions you disagree with over the head with a 2x4?

[Jack Bone]

49. Stand up!!

here's what I've been doing here in the redstate hell of Indiana...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=151x6101


I stood up 3 days ago & I'll be there again in 4 days.. w/ my sign saying "ENOUGH"...ya can join me if ya can make the trip...or you stand up in a park close to you..get some buddies together and make a difference... ENOUGH already!!

[Warren Stupidity]

56. I like that.

My question was really for the OP, who I am just guessing will not have any constructive suggestions. I encourage all forms of protest and non-violent civil disobedience. We all need to just stand up, in any way we can, whenever we can, however we can, and we need to stop bashing those who are trying their damndest to do what they can do.

[Jack Bone]

67. gotcha...I agree

ENOUGH..stand up on Sundays!! it isn't hard...as a matter of fact, I brought my daughter w/ me & let her play on the slides & swings @ the park while I stood up...we had about 5 people last week..next week we'll 15 or more...

[EFerrari]

59. You GO, Redstate Red!

:applause:

[Jack Bone]

71. thank ya...just doing what I can..I've had ENOUGH!!

[EFerrari]

75. Doing what you can is more than most people manage to do.

Thank you.

[Jack Bone]

81. we're trying to change that...

this "ENOUGH" idea of Cenk & Wes Jr's is a good one..and easy to do...
check this out (The Young Turks).. http://www.theyoungturks.com/section/Enough ..

[Obamarama]

369. FUCK that shit. The only one getting whacked over the head by a fucking 2x4 is ME.

I merely expressed an opinion about Cindy. As a matter of fact, I've not expressed many opinions about Cindy because for the most part I've not taken issue with what she's done. I've not always agreed with her tactics, but have always supported her right and convictions to what she feels she needs to do.

I've also not suggested ANYWHERE in this thread that she doesn't have a right to redress Conyers.

I've merely expressed an opinion that I think she has gone off the tracks in going after Conyers.

I think it's utterly LAUGHABLE that I have been accused of fostering a "mob mentality" regarding Cindy, given the tenor of the diatribes being vomited forth by the Cindybots.

All those gnashing their teeth over a critical comment and mystifyingly transforming it into some sort of heinous attack really need to chill and get a fucking life.

[Warren Stupidity]

371. So your answer to what are you doing about the war is 'bashing cindy' otherwise nothing?

You cannot list even one positive suggestion regarding what would be an appropriate course of action?

Poor you indeed.

[assclown_bush]

373. Chill?

Your post reads pretty shrill and hysterical~~~I'd say YOU are the one who might want to chill~ax a bit.

[nini]

25. That is the biggest bullshit argument regarding her

Not all of us can leave our jobs and do what she does for weeks and months at a time.

There are other ways to let our representatives know what we expect of them. Have you ever heard of a fax, email, phone call etc..

Local rallies too?

[Jack Bone]

28. how many petitions have you signed?

How well are they working?

though so...

[nini]

40. about as far as she got in getting W to talk to her after spending months..

in the dirt? How did that work out? :eyes:

So, are we all to walk away from our jobs - seriously many of us are living check to check and cannot survive by walking away from our jobs - it's not a valid argument to say if we don't do exaclty what she does we don't do anything.

Are you walking with her?

[Jack Bone]

69. please read my "Stand Up!!" post above

Yeah I work the graveyard shift 11-7am...I can't march w/ Cindy..but I would if I could...but I am doing this...it's easy...and it will make a difference!!

[creeksneakers2]

105. Stand up!

Karl Rove could really use you.

[Jack Bone]

220. How?

As an American standing up for his rights? I've fought for this country once before..and I'm up for the challenge once again...

Karl Rove can use me?...whatever....it amazes me how far we've come as a Nation, if we're afraid of what Rove might do...I'm not afraid of Karl Rove, I'm terrified that our Representatives have let us down...Karl Rove? Karl Rove's a punk...

[PA Democrat]

312. Redstate Red Herring's talking about an activism program that Wes Clark started

Perhaps you should should go tell Wes Clark that Karl Rove could really use him. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

21. LINK? and not a link to another DU post with no link.

So far I have seen no proof except the linked topic saying Rove has planned this. I would like to see proof, so I can read the whole thing and decide on FULL information. Thank you.

[knowledgeispwr]

76. Here's a link...

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24450

It has the whole thing, it was at afterdowningstreet.org, as the OP in the GD:Politics thread said. It's really happening.

[nini]

22. Why doesn't she go after Mitch McConnel and Boner

and put the pressure on those dickwads to get the Republicans to do the right thing and not tie the Democrats hands on this?

It's not the Dems who can't get the votes for impeachment etc.. IT'S THE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is what pisses me off about her with her fucking misguided grand standing.

:grr:

[ProudDad]

268. Maybe

'cause they ain't in power... :shrug:

[Purveyor]

23. At least someone is holding a protest during these summer months. Totally disappointed in the lack

organized 'marches on DC' during these hot, colleges out for the summer months...

[dysfunctional press]

29. she should get bev harris as a running mate and try for the oval office.

she's turning into a total whack-job.

[Mandate My Ass]

34. pathetic

truly.

[JackBeck]

41. Very.

And completely in character.

[EFerrari]

43. Has it occured to anyone that Mr. Conyers may have no problem

with Cindy drawing attention to impeachment?

lol

[Jack Bone]

57. she was a panel member in one of his earlier conferences..

I think it was the one held in the basement...Ambassador Joe Wilson was on that panel as well as Ray McGovern, if memory serves me correct

[EFerrari]

62. Yes! So, before we get all protective of Mr. Conyers

we might want to remember that he and Cindy have common goals. :)

[KoKo]

98. Good strategic thinking there.........

:D Let "THE PEOPLE" call for Impeachment...otherwise it's just a Democratic "Witch Hunt" according to the Left Wing Pundits and MS Pundits and all the others who "claim" to be "fair and balanced."

[EFerrari]

103. This would be a good time to find all our points of agreement.

:)

[knowledgeispwr]

137. The problem is...

because of both right-wing spin AND some of Sheehan's own actions, such petitioning won't be seen as "THE PEOPLE's" call but instead that of a far-left tragic figure. Then, as others have pointed out, it would be the Dems 'caving' to extremists. I'm merely pointing out how it would look.

[conscious evolution]

256. Ding ding ding

We got a winner here folks.
Too bad most are too blind to recognize this.

[creeksneakers2]

108. If they have common goals

Why is Cindy trying to embarrass Conyers with a sit in? Why is she putting Conyers in a position that anything he does do will look like caving in?

[EFerrari]

113. Why should Mr. Conyers be embarrassed because

a citizen is asking for his help? I seriously doubt he's that insecure. lol

[creeksneakers2]

156. He'd be embarrassed

Because the people he supported turned on him. People will say Conyers looks foolish.

[EFerrari]

162. Oh baloney. Mr. Conyers is one of the most respected figures

in the House. It's hard to imagine anyone making him look foolish.

[glitch]

70. Very good point. nt

[EFerrari]

73. I heard Mr. Conyers speak very passionately and in thinly veiled

terms about impeachment in January at the D.C. demonstration. The man isn't intransigent and I seriously doubt he's changed his mind since them. :)

Oh -- and it was GREAT to get to see and hear him.

[glitch]

84. Lucky!

I do have a signed copy of his book on election fraud, so there! :hi:

[EFerrari]

86. I felt very lucky at the time!

:hi:

[knowledgeispwr]

79. Yes, but...

reading the constitution aloud in Conyer's office on and on, potentially disrupting his work, is probably not the type of impeachment attention Mr. Conyers wants. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

[EFerrari]

82. I believe Mr. Conyers can take care of himself in any situation.

And since they have worked together in the past, I'm just not buying this whole drama right now. Could be wrong. :)

[creeksneakers2]

202. Conyers is a great guy

No way Conyers would scam with people who aren't even Democrats and are trying to get rid of Nancy Pelosi.

[EFerrari]

219. Mr. Conyers has been gathering evidence for impeachment

for quite a while. Why you would call that a "scam" is beyond me.

[creeksneakers2]

242. Becasue you keep saying

that Conyers is secretly going along with this. That would be fooling everybody, a scam.

[EFerrari]

250. I didn't say anything about scamming. I've pointed out that

Mr. Conyers has worked with Cindy in the past and may not be too worried about her sitting in his office.

Way to twist words into pretzels.

[papau]

68. No - Cindy is for real and a Dem - Bev is a GOP hired to stop election audits - but while talking to

Conyers and Pelosi makes sense - this war on them is nuts - esp. if she is avoiding the GOP folks that are the real road blocks.

[EFerrari]

78. But, we don't know if this is "war" or theater. We only know

what the presstitutes report. Her differences with Nancy seem to be very real. This action at Conyers office, I don't know. :)

[papau]

94. True - and primaries are the way to work out intra-party disagreements - but a sit

in for Conyers?

Better would be getting behind Conyers 2003 Medicare for all bill that in this Congress has over 70 supporters to date.

[EFerrari]

99. Cindy's focus is the war and I wouldn't be surprised if the staff

have made a space for her in that office.

So many BushCo fires, so little time.

[Yukari Yakumo]

360. Wrong two points

1. Cindy is a loon (re: Dems=Slavery + Wars, Running against Pelosi, and this episode)
2. She disassociated herself from the Dems about a couple of months ago. She is no Democrat.

But otherwise you're right on the rest. Why isn't she going after Mitch McConnell or Boner, the real roadblocks to peace and impeachment?

[Freddie Stubbs]

376. She is not a Dem. She said herself that she was leaving party in May

Unless she isn't telling the truth. But Ms. Sheehan would never do that.

[conscious evolution]

231. NoNoNoNo No

Don't even think of trying to associate that bitch with Cindy.

[givemebackmycountry]

37. Let's see...

Her son is dead in a illegal war.
When she asked why, she got vilified in the press and on the cable "news" shows.
They called her anti-american.
They said she hated the troops.
They said she was urinating on her sons grave.

She sat in a ditch for months on end in Bum-fuck, Texas in the baking heat and was ignored.
They called her a whore.
They said she was addicted to porn.
She finally got fed up and said enough, time for plan B.

The right wing ignored her, her own party on the left ignored her, so I ask this...
Should she just go away?
I think not.
I am tired of weak, spineless Dem's, pissing their pants every time Rove stomps his foot.
She's trying to light a fire under their asses and I support her 100%.

If not her then who?
If not now then when?
It's time for Plan B because I don't see where Plan A is getting us.
We're the majority and I don't see us winning shit.
We still are getting smacked around on a daily basis.

Cindy's got one thing and that's a fact.
This girl has some serious balls and that's what we need right about now.
She's a Mom.
She's not a politician, of course she is going to make some mistakes and say some things she should not.

But she's fighting and she refuses to back down.
I like that.
I like her.

[Obamarama]

47. Among all the things you claim she has, add to the list "loose screw"

I haven't had much to say about Cindy's actions up until now. This is simply beyond the pale. Conyers is NOT one of the BAD GUYS.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. "Conyers is NOT one of the BAD GUYS."

Well then what are you so upset about? He'll meet with Cindy, then agree to move forward with impeachment.

:shrug:

[Mandate My Ass]

52. Bra-vo

I don't know where this lady draws her strength from...I'd have been a basket case from Day 1 of what she has gone through. But she sure does dust herself off and keep on coming, despite the fact that she's vilified by both sides. Blessings on her.

[bigwillq]

64. Great post.

:thumbsup:

I am still not sold on this latest move of hers but I still love her so.

[creeksneakers2]

114. Plan A is working great

Bush is panicking. The GOP are abandoning him. Pelosi and the Democrats are going after withdrawal again with the current defense bill. All Bush can do is beg for everybody on his side to wait until September. Maybe its not fast enough for the very demanding but plan A is making progress and working.

[proud2BlibKansan]

338. , , ,

:yourock:

[terisan]

39. She is commited to a just cause; it is her right as a citizen; Conyers can take it in stride.

I'll criticize her after I lose a son in Iraq.

[bigwillq]

61. I like this line:

I'll criticize her after I lose a son in Iraq.

:thumbsup:

[Canuckistanian]

88. I'm sorry. That reason doesn't give her carte blanche to criticize everyone

I've held off on my opinions of her latest actions until now.

Since when do people who are victimized get to decide who gets punished and how they should suffer?

Why should they get a special privilege to act as the only arbitrator of justice?

We don't allow victims of domestic crime to have the predominant opinion as to how their crimes against them be punished.

To some, it's called called "vigilantism". It rarely leads to justice. Lawmakers have known this for centuries.

Justice occurs when ALL the citizens agree on the crime, the perpetrators and the appropriate punishment.

Cindy is now failing badly on the "perpetrators" part of the above sentence.

And although she has undoubtedly suffered, she is now attributing that accountability and guilt wrongly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. punished? suffer?

vigilantism?

:rofl:

Help! Help! John Conyers is being oppressed!

:rofl:

[Canuckistanian]

118. Do you have any fucking idea how the RW is going to use this?

This is a fucking GOLD MINE for them.

Get ready, it's going to be splashed all over a TeeVee near you in glorious color with chyrons that read "Liberals in Disarray!" "Cindy Splits Dems!" "Conyers Suffers Criticism from the Left!"

Forget what I said about basic justice (although I stand by what I say).

This will set back the cause by splitting US.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Sure.

They'll try to use it to troll democratic websits in order to disrupt conversations, and try to convince very gullible people that Cindy Sheehan's doing something inappropriate.

I don't think anybody's going to fall for it though.

[Canuckistanian]

129. Forgive me for getting agitated

You're right, the number of people falling for this are shrinking rapidly.

But the CM is still going to put this out there.

And it still has the potential for damage.

[EFerrari]

145. Oh for gawds sake, like they would just shut up without this?

Come on. lol

[Canuckistanian]

151. True.

I'm going nuts here.

I don't understand what's going on, I guess.

[EFerrari]

154. Imho, what's going on is, the liberals are acting like liberals

and the RW owned press is trying to divide them. Same old thing.

[Canuckistanian]

165. Damn, we're an ornery bunch, ain't we?

We're passionate, yet we refuse to march in the same direction 100% of the time.

I don't know how we ever survived.

:P

[EFerrari]

The Magistrate.

:)

[JANdad]

181. Don't need the press to do that...

We divide ourselves just fine thank you very much!





And BTW...that is exactly why we as dems look weak to the undecided...just sayin'

[EFerrari]

198. Yeah -- because the Republics have framed debate as "weakness".

We can reframe vigorous debate any day. :)

[JANdad]

223. Sheep follow those that project strength

And unfortunatley...a fair number of folks in this country are sheep attached to their iPods...American Idol...and the latest Brittany scandal...

[EFerrari]

225. But only about 30% of them. Why sink to the lowest common denominator?

[JANdad]

254. Well...take our 50ish%

and add to the maybe 20% of those sheep (by this I refer to undecideds) and voila...no more stolen elections...

[terisan]

348. Stage a demonstration in support of both Sheehan and Conyers. Support her in her

disappointment that things are not moving faster and support him in his moving things along. Make sure all signs say We Support Cindy and John. Wear buttons that say same.

We have the power to reframe.

We divide ourselves.

[bigwillq]

111. I said I thought it was a good line.

I didn't say anything about it giving Cindy the power to punish.

She has every right to criticize whoever she wants to and people have every right to criticize her.

[Canuckistanian]

123. That's OK.

Cindy has certainly earned that respect. And of course she has the right to criticize.

I'm just saying she's taking it too far.

[knowledgeispwr]

83. You don't have to lose a son to be able to criticize.

She is a public figure and shouldn't be immune to criticism. No one should be "untouchable."

[bluedog]

46. targeting Dems/Boucher Va.Mel Watt NC.Bobby Scott VA

This is part of a march that Cindy and others are making from Texas to New York. The march may make stops at the district offices of other House Judiciary Committee Members, such as Rick Boucher, Mel Watt, and Bobby Scott.





http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0707/S00086.htm

[mmonk]

53. If you want impeachment,

why is this being a sad creature? She's being more American than everyone else who is sitting on their asses complaining. I am an admirer of John Conyers and have an autographed copy of George W. Bush vs. The Constitution of the United States. However, I support whatever she feels is necessary as well as others who exercise their rights to air grievances.

[shadowknows69]

60. Cindy speaks for me

Despite Conyers being one of the "good guys" it doesn't hurt to remind him why he has that label and give him chances to be a "better guy"

[Diane R]

63. Cindy no longer speaks for me. She needs to figure out who her enemies are...they aren't the dems.

[Seabiscuit]

97. Indeed, her comment that Dems started all our wars makes her look like a whacked-out nutjob.

She should stick to what she knows - that her son died for nothing in Iraq.

[Yukari Yakumo]

361. Feel free to use the pic in my sig if you want {nt}

[Beelzebud]

383. Thanks!

This makes it easier to identify people that go in my ignore list!

Ignored.

[SoCalDem]

65. I've never weighed in much on Cindy because I know how grief can drive a person, BUT

lately it seems as if she's flailing desperately to stay "relevant". Perhaps she's lost sight of the end-game.

The irony is that by attacking dems, she's biting the hands that fed her, and sitting in the laps of her enemies.

repubes have hated her and her message from day one, but they will gladly accept the gifts she is giving them now. Republicans will make commercials wil her in it , trashing dems and it will re-charge their base.

Cindy has hit a wall of sorts. She cannot win this battle alone, and I know how desperately she wants to change things, but sometimes you have to withdraw and recharge..and wait.

I was glad when she said she was going home, because I think she needed to rest.

It seems as if she's been bitten by the celebrity bug, and kind of needs it now.

Surreptitious video of dems asking her to leave does her cause (or ours) any good, and makes her look foolish.:(

[lonestarnot]

74. Nope. Cindy does not focus on herself. That's the mmmmmediya's focus.

You are wrong about her. Her message is "end the (fucking) war", not "look at me."

[EFerrari]

91. Like Cindy Sheehan NEEDS any of this crap.

:crazy:

[lonestarnot]

134. Right. Camping out in a fucking gully washer in 120 degrees is really exciting,

especially when you do it for months. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

140. She should have gone and made salt but she's an attention monger.

:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

192. Nope. Cindy does not focus on herself. That's the mmmmmediya's focus.

[Colobo]

66. Conyers > Sheehan

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. Too Bad You Can't Put Exponents In Headers LOL.

[Colobo]

87. LOL! I wish...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. As If The Pelosi Thing Wasn't Already Enough, This Is A Deal Breaker. I'm Done With Her.

God bless her for her loss. But she has completely lost her mind and her way and I no longer consider her to be even remotely on our side. John Conyers? She's totally jumped the shark. She is officially choosing to be nothing more than a provocateur in whatever ways she can, almost like a child. I think this action on her part is pathetic and as true a sign as ever that she has become completely ineffective and irrational. She needs a break to put things back into perspective and gain some shred of rationality back. Jesus Christ.

[Mandate My Ass]

85. I'm sure that'll just break her little ole heart

A scathing ad homimen from OMC is a sure-fire sign that somebody is doing the right thing. :thumbsup:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. Blah Blah Blah Blah. Ad Hominem My Ass. We're Talking About Her Directly Genius.

And am entitled to voice my displeasure with her irrational extremism. Get over it pal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. ad hominem?

Dish it out, but can't take it, eh?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Ummm, You're Talking About What Now?

:crazy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. No kidding.

It's like hearing an Archie Bunker rant.

Funny on at least a couple of levels.

[Mandate My Ass]

104. Aww, c'mon

I actually liked and respected Archie Bunker a little; plus he was funny on purpose. :evilgrin:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Carol O'Connor was funny on purpose.

Archie Bunker was funny completely by accident.

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. If that's true, their employer's not getting their money's worth.

Because nobody's falling for it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

150. One Can't Help But Notice That You Never Address Context, And Only Issue Personal Attack.

It's all you can do.

The silliest part of your post is the inherent hypocrisy within it. No one falls for your attacks Bornagblahblah, nobody.

If you want to debate context, then by all means do so. But if your intellect is too limited to do so, then I understand.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. What on earth makes you think we're talking about you?

Is that narcissism, or are your ears burning?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

174. I Have Something I Guess You Don't.

Common sense. :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

179. My my. That's an outlandish claim.

That's an even wilder claim then your GD thread about your enormous penis.

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. Oh Bornablahblahsdlkj;lsdkjf, So Silly Willy.

And stop being jealous of my penis (though I never had any GD thread claiming an enormous penis) :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

199. Stop being jealous of my ability to hold a cohesive argument.

:)

[Mandate My Ass]

213. Um, yes you did. You claimed the "average" size was pathetic

compared to your monstrous organ. If your brain and penis are equal in size, well then, I'd be worried for you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

226. Ummmmmm, No I Didn't. And Get Over It.

I did find the average size to sound a bit small. I just couldn't imagine it.

But so fucking what? I'm not entitled to that perception? Why the fuck should I have to pussyfoot around with the subject instead of answering bluntly and honestly as I normally do? In that thread did I ever gloat, make any claims, or say I had a gigantic penis or 'monstrous organ'? If not, why do you put forth the deceitful and childishly conceived premise that I had? Tell me, should people not be allowed to respond honestly to a discussion about such things, out of fear that some insecure immature boys will get offended and twist the remarks in childish ways to characterize the poster as lying and exaggerating, or trying to show off, just so that the attacking poster can feel better about their own insecurities, as if NO man has a larger than average penis or something? And this discussion has anything to do with this thread how now?

You seriously need to grow up pal. Seriously.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

233. Would you quit obsessing about your penis?

Jesus, nobody cares.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

237. Looks Like You And The Other Doing The Obsessing Over My Penis. I Wish You Wouldn't. It's Pathetic.

You're right that nobody cares. So why have you brought it up?

Get over me and my penis dude. Seriously. You're disturbed.

[Moochy]

244. Tobias Funke is that you?

"get over me and my penis dude."
That sounds like something Tobias Funke would say, unwittingly.

[Mandate My Ass]

251. It was more like a high school sophomore

That's average? Mine is like so much bigger than that!

Repeated about 20 times or so during the course of an otherwise amusing and enlightening thread.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

255. Do You Enjoy Making Things Up Like A Child? Such Tactics Are Disgraceful.

You are no better then faux news talking heads when you engage in such deceit, you know that?

[Mandate My Ass]

238. I'm just sayin. The evidence is that you're neither a mental giant

or "gifted" in that other way. Real men don't engage in public penis measuring. And I know a real man when I'm dealing with one.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

246. Will You Stop Obsessing About My Penis? Jesus Christ.

Should I just send you a picture and get this over with? :rofl:

I never said I was 'gifted' in that other way. You did. I'm perfectly confident in my size and always have been. But who gives a fuck? Is that supposed to mean I have to lie about it and act like I'm only average as not to offend someone? What a crock of shit. Have I made claims ANYWHERE of being enormous? Nope. Why would I. Who gives a fuck?

But I am a way above the line genius, whether you like it or not. Don't be so jealous cause you ain't. (and I know I gloat about that, though not often, but I don't give a flying fuck. I'm proud of being in the top half a percent of intellectuals worldwide, though not so proud of not having used it for something more worthwhile. But still, mental giant? You bet your ass I am. Deal with it pally! LOL)

[Mandate My Ass]

262. Your claims to mental and penile gigantism are falling on deaf ears

Don't bother sending any pix of your teenie weenie peenie. I don't have magnifying glasses and my BF will think I'm becoming a pedophile.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

269. For all I know, the whole giant penis thing could be true.

He could have picked the long straw when god was handing out the penises, for all I know. (although, the way he keeps bragging about means he's probably compensating)

It's this mental gigantism that's so demonstrably absurd.

:rofl:

[Moochy]

275. I dont doubt the claims

of overly large brain and/or penis.

However the heart seems to be shrivelled and black.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

309. I'm A Bit Disappointed In Your Response Moochy. I Guess I'll Have To Refresh Your Memory.

This is our last PM interaction. It was after you had strongly attacked me in a different thread. Though it isn't all that telling, can you still look me in the eyes and tell me honestly that you believe my heart to be shriveled and black?

Your PM:

"letting it go.. DU that is...this place sucks
hey man it's all good. It just really pisses me off here how so many sub-threads get deleted.. I am not accusing you of alerting them, its just i hate when a thread at DU goes down the memory hole....

Stalin would be proud.

And my posts on that subject were NOT rule violations or ad hominems.
I was just pointing out the DUzy that got deleted.

The land of the disappearing post!

I gotta admit obtaining pure objectivity would be a pretty neat trick."

And my return reply:

Re: letting it go.. DU that is...this place sucks
I didn't alert on one post in that thread nor the one the other evening. Not one.

You need to let it go.

And I can obtain objectivity in that manner, when I choose to. I'm aware most people can't but I'm also aware I'm not most people. And if you think that's a compliment to myself you're wrong. I wish to God I was most people.

But DU doesn't suck. In fact, it's by far the best place on the entire web to get accurate and breaking information and is a plethora of goldmine stuff for liberals. If you obsess on the interpersonal bickering instead of on the real meat of what makes DU great, then I can understand your dislike of it. My advice would be to not focus on DU in those ways and instead appreciate it for the mountains of education we can get here about the state of our country then we could possibly get anywhere else. That's why DU rocks.

Peace.

[Name removed]

313. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

283. Correct again

However, the poster keeps harping on these alleged "gifts" and all we have are his word. However, that's all we need. Case closed. I wish there was a way one could duplicate on a cumputer screen the sound of "Law and Order."

I hope for his sake he has what he's been bragging about. I'm willing to bet no woman is bragging about getting it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

287. Meh.

He'll probably grow out of that phase some day.

[Moochy]

289. Thats how he types so fast

three limbs!

[Name removed]

293. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamarama]

370. How the FUCK did penis size enter this discussion????

I don't know how penis size surfaced in this discussion, but come to think of it, there are several replies here that seem to have been posted by some giant pricks. Not naming any names...I'm just sayin'.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

139. Awwwwww, How Cute, Calling DU'ers Trolls.

I'd wager it is you guilty of the life you speak of, but I'll refrain.

And here's a little bit of blunt knowledge for you: Your speculation is as blindly inaccurate as your strategical perception pal. :hi:

[Mandate My Ass]

160. You Can Accuse Me Of Anything You'd Like, OMC.

I'd welcome it as validation.

Oh, and I'm not your pal. Also, when addressing someone--whether by their user name or an endearment--you must insert a comma. e.g.

Your speculation is as blindly inaccurate as your strategical perception , pal.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

170. You're The One Doing The Accusing Pal, No Matter How Idiotic In Premise.

And if you think anyone gives a rat's fat ass about a missing comma, then your community perception is as flawed as your strategical perception and blindly inaccurate speculations. :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

176. You're not the one doing the accusing?

How do you explain this one then?

"she has completely lost her mind and her way and I no longer consider her to be even remotely on our side. John Conyers? She's totally jumped the shark. She is officially choosing to be nothing more than a provocateur in whatever ways she can, almost like a child. I think this action on her part is pathetic and as true a sign as ever that she has become completely ineffective and irrational."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

189. Oh Bornagablahblah, Please Follow Context So That Your Reply Actually Has Merit.

The poster said I can accuse THEM of anything I want, yet they were the ones who accused. It was a really simple discussion to follow. Not sure how you were able to mess up the context so badly. Jeez dude, pay attention. :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

193. Well, OK.

You accused him/her of calling you a troll.

"Awwwwww, How Cute, Calling DU'ers Trolls."

Then there was this.

"I'd wager it is you guilty of the life you speak of, but I'll refrain."

So you're an accuser in both contexts.

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

210. Oy Vey.

You accused him/her of calling you a troll.

"Awwwwww, How Cute, Calling DU'ers Trolls."

Nowhere does that claim it's me, only a DU'er, though anyone with an even semi-functioning brain could figure it out within the context.

"Then there was this.

"I'd wager it is you guilty of the life you speak of, but I'll refrain.""

I said I'd wager. As in if I had to place odds between whether it is I living in my basement or they, I'd say it would be more likely to be them. It was a counter to the direct accusation from the poster to begin with. Jeez, is your head always this deep in the sand?

"So you're an accuser in both contexts."

Point one: Nope. He did call a DU'er a troll so it wasn't an accusation it was established fact.

Point two: Not really. It's grey a little, but was a counter response to a DIRECT accusation, so therefore is warranted.

You crack me up. You're my little resident stalker with nothing more up your sleeve than personal attack. Maybe someday you'll figure out how to actually, ya know, like address context and stuff. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

211. okaayyy.

So then you accused him/her of calling somebody else a troll.

That changes things how?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

218. Jesus More Spoon Feeding? Really? Holy Cow.

Please, follow along bornawhatever.

The poster, by their OWN WORDS, did such. Established facts ARE NOT accusations. They are just, well, ya know, quite simply, ummm, FACTS.

Jesus dude, are you really this in need of hand holding? :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

221. O RLY?

"Established facts ARE NOT accusations."

So then he/she never really accused somebody of being a troll.

:rofl:

[karlrschneider]

171. But you don't have the balls to say who you're calling out.

Chickenshit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

187. Seems to me...

chickenshits are the sort of people who criticize grieving mothers on anonymous message boards.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

191. That's Novel. So Everyone Has To Worship Cindy's Current Extremism Or They're Chickenshits?

God your warped logic never ceases to crack me the fuck up! :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

195. You know what?

I think you like Sheehan a lot. In the same way you like Hugo Chavez.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

230. I Used To. But I Can't Anymore. I Don't Align Myself With Extremists.

Extremists of any color should not be followed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

234. No, I think you do.

Just like you like what Chavez is doing in Venezuela. You just don't like to admit it. You rather say things you don't believe, just to stir up arguments.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

239. Project Much?

And as a person, I do like her. When it comes down to it I know she's a beautiful person. If I met her I'd give her a huge hug. But politically, I can not condone her methods, tactics and directions any longer. They are irrational, extreme and not of sound mind. That's just quite simply how I feel.

I mean seriously dude, JOHN CONYERS???????

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

248. Yeah, see, I can't believe that.

You say the same sort of "Fuck Chavez" things about Chavez, but then you go and write things like this:

"But why do I act the ways I do here? Part of it is for fun of course, part of it is due to the frustration that I see from certain topics that I consider to be ludicrous in logic, and my impulsive need to call them out as such... The whole 'viva chavez' ones for one. They put this guy on some huge pedestal like he's a god. Well I've seen things he's done, I know who his friends are and I know his desires. I do actually respect him for the many good things he's done for the poor, including our poor, but when posting in those threads I have to overdramatize my response in order toappropriately counter balance the godly worship. The only way to combat the over the top 'viva chavez' he the bestest! premises it to counter with a 'Fuck that piece of shit scumbag'. It's all about balance. When it comes down to it... I still do recognize the good he's done. But he ain't a god. When I see him being put forth here as a god I feel the need to have to counter balance to the equal and opposite form of drama. Equilibrium.

But on other topics as well they drive me nuts. Some are put forth with such idiocy and lack of critical thought that I just have to come in and call the shit out. Others are full of intolerances, false judgments or stereotypes that just have to be shot down and condemned.

There's just so much crap that gets posted here sometimes that I feel my role, even if hated by some, is to be the voice of reason. Yes, I do it bluntly and yes I do it with the tones of a wiseass, but I do so because I believe it needs to be done."

[karlrschneider]

212. Apparently, IOKIYAD.

Oh, wait, Cindy isn't even a Democrat any more. Oh, well...
edit
I guess we have to make an exception though...
:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

209. Yeah, but I'm not anonymous like most here.

And losing a son does not automatically confer sainthood, common sense or even infallibility even though some seem to think it does.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

214. Sure.

But having a name doesn't preclude a person from being a chickenshit.

[karlrschneider]

235. You sure have a grasp of the obvious. Everyone has a name.

Some aren't ashamed of theirs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

236. And some should be.

[karlrschneider]

245. I won't EVEN comment on a name involving 'hooligan'

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

252. Karl, you don't seem to comment much on anything.

You've got a name, but not much to put it behind.

[karlrschneider]

266. I am desiccated with mortification.

Somehow I failed to notice you had me confused with someone who gives a shit what you think.
Bye bye

[conscious evolution]

243. Absolutely correct

Especially when it is someone who actually has the balls to put their ass on the line to bring this war to an end.

[sanskritwarrior]

351. Huh........

I thought chickenshits were people that acted like Brownshirts when their totem is found to be a False God, Cindy the False Prophet of the Fringe, I like that.......Furthermore I thought a chickenshit was someone that treats people that disagree like the enemy....It's been quite enlightening watching the "faux progresssives" devolve from so called principled paragons of liberal purity to jack booted thugs determined to snuff out any bad thoughts towards Cindy the False Prophet of the Fringe. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Cindy defenders have definitely used the playbook of Cheney to silence the dissent of those of us who find it distasteful to attack the politicians we helped elect......call me silly, but most people don't take too kindly to turncoats and fair weather friends.......Cindy is guilty of being one, and on her way to being guilty of the other........

[Mandate My Ass]

200. You, too, need to be schooled in the use of the comma

and ballslessness as well, gelding chickenshit. :P

[karlrschneider]

240. I don't, use,unnecessary, commas

like some people do.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Have some of these since you love them so much.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

142. Moochy, If You're Going To Attack A DU'er, Please Do So To Their Face Ok?

If you want to debate context then debate it. If you are just going to act like a child then take it elsewhere.

[Moochy]

147. Debate context

with you? fuck a duck man I'm not calling you a troll.
I'm just saying I liked Archie Bunker better than the fictional character of OMC.

Trolls are better organized and have coherent attack strategies.. you? you are no troll.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

158. Yes, Debate Context.

You love to jump into these little childish flamefests that my pre-school posse of followers love to initiate, and you do so EVERY TIME with nothing but nonsensical idiotic attack. We've had discussions via PM in which I treated you in a very respectful and caring manner, and yet even though through there you act far more mature, on the boards themselves you still act like a child towards me. Why is that moochy? Do you think the brownie points with these trouble makers is worth it? I got news for ya; they ain't. They ain't the crowd you should be wanting high fives from. Anyone here who would be of such childishness to offer them is not worth your time. I hope someday you'll recognize what I'm saying.

So yes, debate context rather than joining in the stupidity. We can debate just fine and rationally, as we've proved to each other through PM's. Why have to default to the nonsensical insults and unproductive personal attacks? Just think about it Moochy, ok?

[Moochy]

232. Ok I thought about it...

See you next time I need some irrational Cindy Sheehan topics. Or maybe when you make the "FUCK CINDY" avatar! I for one can't wait!

[Zywiec]

90. She's totally jumped the shark.

:rofl:

[spoony]

322. And it's no longer even amusing watching her apologists

rationalize each increasingly absurd and detrimental stunt. It's just a sad mess.

[Yukari Yakumo]

362. Perhaps it's time we ask Skinner to declare Cindy persona-non-grata in DU

All she's done lately is attack Dems. I think it's time we ask Skinner to declare Cindy persona-non-grata and ban her name, image, and any and all mentioning of her in DU and the forums. If she doesn't want want to associate herself with the Democrats, we shouldn't associate with her.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

405. To Each Their Own, But I Find That To Be Beyond Extreme.

I have no problem with people continuing to talk about her or love her. I can understand why many would. What I don't like seeing is the cult like extremists berating others for no longer being enamored with her. But I can't agree either with a concept of banning her name, image, etc as I find that to be opposite but equally extreme.

She's a good woman with a good heart. I just think she's completely lost her way and has been brainwashed a bit by the extremist crowd. Either that, or all the stress and emotions have gotten the better of her rational judgment. But regardless, I wish her well and hope the best for her. But I just simply can't defend or appreciate whatsoever her positions of late. They're beyond wacky and truly unproductive to our cause.

[mmonk]

107. New Rule:

Never criticize those willing to do more than yourself to bring justice or are more brave than you are.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. That's an old rule.

So old it's Golden.

[mmonk]

128. Old maybe and golden yes, but still apparently new to some.

Or they forgot.

[karlrschneider]

125. Often, discretion actually is the better part of valor.

Cindy has forgotten that.

[EFerrari]

138. Let's see. BushCo: Discretion, valor. Discretion, valor.

I vote for valor and to hell with what it looks like.

This whole premise is silly. John Conyers and Cindy Sheehan are on the same page but don't share the same constraints. So, she gets to be vilified and he gets to be minimized. That's not what is happening here.

[karlrschneider]

253. You probably missed my post earlier where I excoriated Conyers.

Of course, here it generated a tiny bit of interest...if I were to do it loudly and publicly, as a fairly public figure, I would expect to be rightfully criticized, ESPECIALLY if I had already abandoned the Democratic Party.

[EFerrari]

392. I miss a lot, Karl.

:)

[mondo joe]

127. Another rule: Don't attack your allies.

Attacl your enemies.

[mmonk]

148. Who, me, her, or the OP?

[philosophie_en_rose]

155. Bush thinks he's doing more than anyone, is he?

How many Supreme Court justices have you appointed?


Same argument here. Cindy Sheehan's tactics are unwise. And some of us are actually to create justice instead of throwing tantrums.

[mmonk]

163. She's already confronted him. Think that will work this time?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

166. Problem Is She Isn't Doing More. She's Now Hurting The Mission, Not Helping It.

So by your logic, I should be supporting rabid republicans because of how much effort they put into things? Fuck that. And no, I'm not calling her a rabid republican. But she's now attempting to undermine and hurt us just the same. She is wrong here. She is dead wrong. She needs a break to regain her sanity. I'm not saying that just to poke her. I'm saying it because it's the plain and simple truth. She has completely lost her way and is totally outside the realm of logic and reasoning now. I hate to say it, as I once so firmly supported her and loved her. I now feel totally stabbed in the back and wish the rabid irrational far left wackos never manipulated and brain washed her this far. But it has come, and there's nothing I can do about it. I will never forget nor lose respect for the things she had done in the past. But I cannot condone, respect or give a pass to these recent developments of pure irrationality.

[mmonk]

180. Going to an out of power republican in the House will get you nowhere.

Same with trying bush again. Conyers now has some power.

[JANdad]

205. Out. Of. Power. Republican.

Whoa...did those "Out of Power Repubs" not block a bill today???? Hmmmmmm?

If we could turn 14 repubs...we could get something done...




edit for sp

[mmonk]

224. I don't think she is interested in sending a bill. That won't work.

Withhold appropriations for more war or don't send up another funding bill. Also, only a simple majority in the House is required for impeachment.

[knowledgeispwr]

229. Yes they did...

some forget that we have slim majorities in both houses. All they see is the word "majority" and think we should be able to magically do whatever we want. Also, the GOP seems to vote in block a lot more than Dems, making it even more difficult to get things done.

[mmonk]

241. Sending bills to be blocked in the Senate or vetoed by bush

is a nowhere stupid strategy or just playing for 08. Democrats need to fight with the weapons they have if they are serious. That would be not sending any more funding bills for this war or impeachment (which requires only a simple majority in the House) or de-authorizing this war by simple majority vote since a de authorization would not be a bill and is the prerogative of the party in majority in Congress.

[Yukari Yakumo]

363. And don't we need some of "out of power" rethugs to make impeachment work? nt

[Tatiana]

110. Hey, she has every right to petition Conyers. He's a big guy and can handle himself.

However, I wish she'd devote more time planning sit-ins of the offices of the Republicans who supported the Iraq fiasco.

[shadowknows69]

116. They're the ones she knows won't listen though

[Tatiana]

157. Vulnerable Republicans in districts trending Dem/Independent likely would.

She should give it a try. We need to get rid of the most vicious Congresscritters first. She could really help in that regard.

[EFerrari]

117. What happens is, those don't get covered -- what a surprise.

That's what I noticed from my Code Pink email list. The press is all over the sit ins at Dems' offices and sort of quiet about all the OTHER ones at the Thugs' offices.

[opihimoimoi]

122. PTS she is a wounded person....Leave her alone....

[Mandate My Ass]

141. She is a wounded person

and a strong person at the same time. The hate generated here for her is distressing and not easily understood. So is the belief that she is helping repubs by questioning dems. She is fighting for a cause and she's doing it where she sees the most opportunity for change. She is rewarded by the same derision the RWers heap on her.

[creeksneakers2]

228. She isn't questioning Democrats

Cindy is trying to turn the left against Democrats, just like the Greens did in 2000, which landed us in Iraq and with Bush in the first place.

Republicans want lefties to vote against Democrats. Cindy want lefties to vote against Democrats. Cindy and the Republicans are on the same side, and have the same mission. Did you know Cindy was a welcome guest on Scarborough Country last night, and was given a favorable review by Rash Limbaugh today?

[KittyWampus]

144. if she has PTS then she should get some help & leave the leeches that've attached themselves to her

they are NOT her friends. A friend would guide her towards the help she needs in handling her grief and also getting some rest.

[EFerrari]

146. Do you have any refs for that because you keep bringing up that idea.

Who has attached themselves to Sheehan? Who would that be?

[anitar1]

126. So what is Conyers going to do and when ??

I have wondered if he is playing with us. I will believe when I see real action, which I haven't yet.

[EFerrari]

133. He's not. No way. In case of a nuclear attack, I want to be where he is.

He has a good cool head and he knows how to deal with thorny situations. Oh, and I wouldn't want to play chess with him. :)

[ima_sinnic]

131. and what are YOU doing?

writing letters, faxing, e-mails, going to rallies and demonstrations. signing petitions, standing on street corners with signs -- it's gone beyond any of these.

Everybody's way of resisting and confronting power is different.
Instead of criticizing someone else's undying commitment and sacrifice, show us how YOU would do it. Something with more oomph, more risk than a few phone calls and letters. How far are YOU willing to go?

Conyers has been talking for years. If Cindy wants some action, now, after 6 years of blatant lawlessness and do-nothing enabling, who can blame her?

[philosophie_en_rose]

159. You should share your advice with Cindy Sheehan.

She needs it more than anyone.

[ima_sinnic]

177. your post doesn't even make sense

I said, people who are doing nothing (and I'll admit I'm doing close to nothing) have absolutely no grounds for criticizing someone who is risking everything. What do you care what SHE does? Nobody has to "follow" her, she never set out to "lead" anyone, she is making a statement.

what are YOU doing?

[lonestarnot]

136. And as for you, what the fuck have you done to stop the war? Sacrificed any of your kids?

[mzteris]

143. you know I could make a really snarky remark

just to show what an @ss you're being - but then I'd get all flamed and sh*t and frankly it ain't worth it.

Just think about it.

[lonestarnot]

196. attttt! Ad hominem attacks are

like the attacker... poopie. And besides, if I were acting like an ass I'd know it. Now as for being an ass, now there is another story. :evilgrin:

[ima_sinnic]

203. I notice the poster never answers that question, simply

attacks the one asking, or brags about how s/he "didn't vote for Bush"--like that's some big courageous accomplishment or something.

[mzteris]

260. do I know you?

I don't believe we've ever spoken before.

And I'm pretty darn sure I've never bragged about how I "didn't vote for Bush".

Are you sure you're referring to the right person here?

[mzteris]

well you're the master at

ad hominums round these here parts pardner, so I'll defer.

You know. I know. And everyone else knows.

[lonestarnot]

215. Hmmm. support your allegation!

:evilgrin: And who is everyone?

[mzteris]

258. you just want accolades

go google yourself.

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

259. Fuck that! I don't google.

or oogle either. :rofl:

[mzteris]

263. scaredy cat scarey cat

Googling ain't hard, chico. really.

And I bet you do, too, oogle.

[lonestarnot]

267. This thread was supposed to be about Cindy. What are you about? Disruption?

:thinking:

[mzteris]

272. I dunno - you're the one who changed the subject.

I thought you were trying to play nice.

:shrug:

If you wanna fight about Cindy - there are plenty of takers out there, I'm sure.

[lonestarnot]

277. The nice was last night. Tonight it's just a "gut" feeling.

Or a shat!

[ima_sinnic]

222. wow, you're so brave! ooooh, "flamed," that might hurt!

[mzteris]

265. i just said it wasn't worth it

in this case.

And it wasn't.

There's enough BS on this forum without encouraging more to be posted.

Now go to bed like a good little - er - sinnic.

[philosophie_en_rose]

167. Unlike Cindy Sheehan, I've never voted for Bush.

And I've read a history book.

[ima_sinnic]

183. well, that makes you just about perfect, then. you can sit back on yr

laurels, then, and tell everybody else how to be a REAL activist, like you.

not voting for Bush -- WOW!! what an achievement, I'm sure your family is very proud of your sacrifice and the great risk you took. :eyes:

[RestoreGore]

197. it was an achievement

And a right that many before us fought and died to preserve.

[ima_sinnic]

208. the right to vote is not in question

[RestoreGore]

288. Then you shouldn' t mock it

[ima_sinnic]

340. how am I "mocking" it?

how is it even relevant to this discussion?

[RestoreGore]

188. Absolutely. By her voting for Bush and not Gore she voted FOR IT ALL

And I don't forgive ANYONE who did that.

[ima_sinnic]

216. therefore her stake in it is even more personal, even w/out losing

her son to it -- so what she does is between her and * and has nothing to do with sanctimonious hate-mongers who "don't forgive" anyone for exercising their right to vote for whom they wish.

and you KNOW she voted for *, how?

[RestoreGore]

291. I believe she admitted it on Daily Kos a while back

But if you can refute it please do. And in the case of THAT vote, what it wrecked on us IS unforgiveable which is also MY right to express.

[lonestarnot]

274. Where's the evidence that she voted for bushitler please?

[lonestarnot]

201. Who said she voted for bushitler? You? Where's your evidence?

[LittleClarkie]

333. I think the first one was a myth. Cindy was recounting someone else's story

Agreed on the history book though.

[LittleClarkie]

366. Sure. Cut out the heart of the eldest just this morning

Then danced around the fire a while nekkid.

Why do you ask?

[Marrah_G]

378. And you didn't invite the rest of us?

Bonfires, dancing, nakedness and cheap wine.... sounds like a night at "church" for me!

[B Calm]

152. I wish everybody would stop trashing Cindy.. She's still fighting

to end this illegal invasion. We might not agree with her tactics, but who are we to judge?

[Yukari Yakumo]

365. Because, both by action and by proxy, she's hurting the cause with her child-like antics...

And by attacking the very people would end the war if the Rethugs and the Chimp would stop stonewalling.

She's become O'Lielly's wet dream. Not only is she attacking the Dems, she's a perfect scapegoat to demonize both the peace and the impeachment movements.

[Mythsaje]

368. That graphic has Repug written all over it...

Nice.

Not really.

[Marrah_G]

379. More Repug then repeating Republican memes?

"Democrats start all the wars"

"Democrats are the slavery party"

Like those?

I've heard Rush say the same things.

If she wants to start attacking the Dem Party perhaps she shouldn't be surprised when we fight back.

[Michigander4Dean]

169. Sad creature? The Congressional PANSY-CRATS are the sad creatures. nt

[seemslikeadream]

173. Yes by all means let's wait until there is 60,000 DEAD

[BrightKnight]

178. She is loosing influence and friends. I hope that she will

focus on what is really important.

[EFerrari]

185. How do you know she's "loosing" anything?

I think we tend to overreact here in GD but, maybe I'm having a nanny attack.

[illinoisprogressive]

182. she just seems to always go too far, excess on things

[EFerrari]

207. That's the frame she is always shoved into. We have a choice

to buy in or to think about it. I don't always agree with Sheehan but I refuse to be manipulated by the presstitutes as well.

[stillrockin]

247. Go Cindy!

Keep the pressure on them to represent us!

[Swamp Rat]

249. Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau

http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html

Civil Disobedience - Part 1 of 3
Thoreau Reader: Home - Civil Disobedience Intro - Civil Disobedience - 2

I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least";(1) and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war,(2) the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for, in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.
<2> This American government — what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed on, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of India rubber,(3) would never manage to bounce over the obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and, if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions, and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievous persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

<3> But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men,(4) I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it.

<4> After all, the practical reason why, when the power is once in the hands of the people, a majority are permitted, and for a long period continue, to rule, is not because they are most likely to be in the right, nor because this seems fairest to the minority, but because they are physically the strongest. But a government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it. Can there not be a government in which majorities do not virtually decide right and wrong, but conscience? — in which majorities decide only those questions to which the rule of expediency is applicable? Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right. It is truly enough said that a corporation has no conscience; but a corporation of conscientious men is a corporation with a conscience. Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice. A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys,(5) and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts — a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniments, though it may be

"Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note,
As his corse to the rampart we hurried;
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot
O'er the grave where our hero we buried."(6)
<5> The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus,(7) etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens. Others, as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders, serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few, as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men, serve the state with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated as enemies by it. A wise man will only be useful as a man, and will not submit to be "clay," and "stop a hole to keep the wind away,"(8) but leave that office to his dust at least: —
"I am too high-born to be propertied,
To be a secondary at control,
Or useful serving-man and instrument
To any sovereign state throughout the world."(9)
<6> He who gives himself entirely to his fellow-men appears to them useless and selfish; but he who gives himself partially to them is pronounced a benefactor and philanthropist.
<7> How does it become a man to behave toward this American government to-day? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I cannot for an instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slave's government also.

<8> All men recognize the right of revolution; that is, the right to refuse allegiance to, and to resist, the government, when its tyranny or its inefficiency are great and unendurable. But almost all say that such is not the case now. But such was the case, they think, in the Revolution of '75.(10) If one were to tell me that this was a bad government because it taxed certain foreign commodities brought to its ports, it is most probable that I should not make an ado about it, for I can do without them. All machines have their friction; and possibly this does enough good to counterbalance the evil. At any rate, it is a great evil to make a stir about it. But when the friction comes to have its machine, and oppression and robbery are organized, I say, let us not have such a machine any longer. In other words, when a sixth of the population of a nation which has undertaken to be the refuge of liberty are slaves, and a whole country is unjustly overrun and conquered by a foreign army, and subjected to military law, I think that it is not too soon for honest men to rebel and revolutionize. What makes this duty the more urgent is the fact that the country so overrun is not our own, but ours is the invading army.(11)
<9> Paley, a common authority with many on moral questions, in his chapter on the "Duty of Submission to Civil Government," resolves all civil obligation into expediency; and he proceeds to say that "so long as the interest of the whole society requires it, that is, so long as the established government cannot be resisted or changed without public inconveniency, it is the will of God that the established government be obeyed, and no longer" — "This principle being admitted, the justice of every particular case of resistance is reduced to a computation of the quantity of the danger and grievance on the one side, and of the probability and expense of redressing it on the other."(12) Of this, he says, every man shall judge for himself. But Paley appears never to have contemplated those cases to which the rule of expediency does not apply, in which a people, as well as an individual, must do justice, cost what it may. If I have unjustly wrested a plank from a drowning man, I must restore it to him though I drown myself.This, according to Paley, would be inconvenient. But he that would save his life, in such a case, shall lose it.(13) This people must cease to hold slaves, and to make war on Mexico, though it cost them their existence as a people.

<10> In their practice, nations agree with Paley; but does any one think that Massachusetts does exactly what is right at the present crisis?

"A drab of state, a cloth-o'-silver slut,
To have her train borne up, and her soul trail in the dirt."(14)
Practically speaking, the opponents to a reform in Massachusetts are not a hundred thousand politicians at the South, but a hundred thousand merchants and farmers here, who are more interested in commerce and agriculture than they are in humanity, and are not prepared to do justice to the slave and to Mexico, cost what it may. I quarrel not with far-off foes, but with those who, near at home, co-operate with, and do the bidding of those far away, and without whom the latter would be harmless. We are accustomed to say, that the mass of men are unprepared; but improvement is slow, because the few are not materially wiser or better than the many. It is not so important that many should be as good as you, as that there be some absolute goodness somewhere; for that will leaven the whole lump.(15) There are thousands who are in opinion opposed to slavery and to the war, who yet in effect do nothing to put an end to them; who, esteeming themselves children of Washington and Franklin, sit down with their hands in their pockets, and say that they know not what to do, and do nothing; who even postpone the question of freedom to the question of free-trade, and quietly read the prices-current along with the latest advices from Mexico, after dinner, and, it may be, fall asleep over them both. What is the price-current of an honest man and patriot to-day? They hesitate, and they regret, and sometimes they petition; but they do nothing in earnest and with effect. They will wait, well disposed, for others to remedy the evil, that they may no longer have it to regret. At most, they give only a cheap vote, and a feeble countenance and Godspeed, to the right, as it goes by them. There are nine hundred and ninety-nine patrons of virtue to one virtuous man; but it is easier to deal with the real possessor of a thing than with the temporary guardian of it.
<11> All voting is a sort of gaming, like checkers or backgammon, with a slight moral tinge to it, a playing with right and wrong, with moral questions; and betting naturally accompanies it. The character of the voters is not staked. I cast my vote, perchance, as I think right; but I am not vitally concerned that that right should prevail. I am willing to leave it to the majority. Its obligation, therefore, never exceeds that of expediency. Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men. When the majority shall at length vote for the abolition of slavery, it will be because they are indifferent to slavery, or because there is but little slavery left to be abolished by their vote. They will then be the only slaves. Only his vote can hasten the abolition of slavery who asserts his own freedom by his vote.

<12> I hear of a convention to be held at Baltimore,(16) or elsewhere, for the selection of a candidate for the Presidency, made up chiefly of editors, and men who are politicians by profession; but I think, what is it to any independent, intelligent, and respectable man what decision they may come to? Shall we not have the advantage of his wisdom and honesty, nevertheless? Can we not count upon some independent votes? Are there not many individuals in the country who do not attend conventions? But no: I find that the respectable man, so called, has immediately drifted from his position, and despairs of his country, when his country has more reason to despair of him. He forthwith adopts one of the candidates thus selected as the only available one, thus proving that he is himself available for any purposes of the demagogue. His vote is of no more worth than that of any unprincipled foreigner or hireling native, who may have been bought. Oh for a man who is a man, and, as my neighbor says, has a bone in his back which you cannot pass your hand through! Our statistics are at fault: the population has been returned too large. How many men are there to a square thousand miles in this country? Hardly one. Does not America offer any inducement for men to settle here? The American has dwindled into an Odd Fellow (17) — one who may be known by the development of his organ of gregariousness, and a manifest lack of intellect and cheerful self-reliance; whose first and chief concern, on coming into the world, is to see that the almshouses are in good repair; and, before yet he has lawfully donned the virile garb, to collect a fund for the support of the widows and orphans that may be; who, in short ventures to live only by the aid of the Mutual Insurance company, which has promised to bury him decently.

<13> It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders. I must get off him first, that he may pursue his contemplations too. See what gross inconsistency is tolerated. I have heard some of my townsmen say, "I should like to have them order me out to help put down an insurrection of the slaves, or to march to Mexico; — see if I would go"; and yet these very men have each, directly by their allegiance, and so indirectly, at least, by their money, furnished a substitute. The soldier is applauded who refuses to serve in an unjust war by those who do not refuse to sustain the unjust government which makes the war; is applauded by those whose own act and authority he disregards and sets at naught; as if the state were penitent to that degree that it hired one to scourge it while it sinned, but not to that degree that it left off sinning for a moment. Thus, under the name of Order and Civil Government, we are all made at last to pay homage to and support our own meanness. After the first blush of sin comes its indifference; and from immoral it becomes, as it were, unmoral, and not quite unnecessary to that life which we have made.

(continued in part two)
Notes
1. Possible reference to "The best government is that which governs least," motto of the United States Magazine and Democratic Review,1837-1859, or "the less government we have, the better" - R.W. Emerson, "Politics", 1844, sometimes mistakenly attributed to Jefferson - back
2. U.S.-Mexican War (1846-1848), abolitionists considered it an effort to extend slavery into former Mexican territory - back
3. Made from the latex of tropical plants, "India" because it came from the West Indies, and "rubber" from its early use as an eraser - back
4. Anarchists, many of whom came from Massachusetts - back
5. Boys who carry gunpowder for soldiers - back
6. Charles Wolfe (1791-1823) The Burial of Sir John Morre at Corunna - back
7. Group empowered to uphold the law, a sheriff's posse - back
8. Shakespeare (1564-1616) English dramatist, from Hamlet - back
9. Shakespeare, from King John - back.
10. The American Revolution began in Concord & Lexington in 1775 - back
11. A reference to slavery in the U.S, and to the invasion of Mexico by the U.S. - back
12. William Paley (1743-1805) English theologian & philosopher, from Principals of Moral and Political Philosophy, 1785 - back
13. "He that findeth his life shall lose it..." - Matthew 10:39 - back
14. Cyril Tourneur (1575?-1626) The Revengers Tragadie - back
15."... a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" - 1 Corinthians 5:6 - back
16. In 1848, Democratics nominated Lewis Case for U.S. president, later defeated by Zachary Talor - back
17. A member of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, a fraternal organization orginating in England in the mid-1700s. - back

Thoreau Reader: Home - Civil Disobedience Intro - Civil Disobedience - 2
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil2.html

Thoreau Reader: Home - Civil Disobedience Intro - Civil Disobedience - 3
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil3.html

------------------

I hope John Conyers is able to meet with Cindy as she continues on her journey from Texas to New York.

[sanskritwarrior]

257. I see the usual suspects are in this thread defending the

indefensible Cindy........

She has gone around the bend, she is attacking elected democrats, this site does not allow support of people who attack Democrats. I hope Skinner does some house cleaning on all the disruptors that would choose Cindy over the Elected Democrats she is targeting.

Yes, yes children you may now call me names and tell me I'm being intolerant by pointing out how intolerant the Cindy defenders are. At least the sheehan debacle this week has allowed us to see who really supports the DEMOCRATS and who supports their own pet beliefs over the Democrats.........

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

261. Speak of the usual suspects!

:rofl:

[sanskritwarrior]

271. Yeah you were on the list

Have you ever met a Democrat you liked? I sometimes wonder........

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

279. I thought you said you were going to put me on ignore.

Not telling the truth about that too, eh?

[sanskritwarrior]

286. No no you misheard me

I didn't say I was going to ignore you, I said if people ignored you, they would miss out on all the comedy you provide......

Now now hooligan, don't start a flamewar, I hate to see you get disciplined again.......

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

292. I did? Because here's what you wrote:

"I've a feeling yo have joined my ignore list for being intolerant....."

I still don't understand why a person going around putting people on "ignore" has any ground to stand on when calling somebody else "intolerant." Isn't that a bit contradictory? Well, that's neither here nor there.

What were you saying about getting disciplined?

[sanskritwarrior]

294. It was just a feeling

my feelings are wrong all the time.........

I was saying you need to behave lest you get disciplined. I'm still offering you an out.........it's your call there bro.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

297. Oooh! Discipline me hard, soldier!

Have your way with me!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2e-7h-1ALuo

[sanskritwarrior]

300. Huh so that's the way you want to take the conversation?

Sad and childish but fine by me, I know who has my back on this forum........

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

301. I'll take it whatever way you want, soldier.

Wasn't it you that went down that homoeroticism tangent?

[sanskritwarrior]

304. I don't know I was too busy servicing 200 other men

to pay much attention to what you say........

[ProudDad]

394. Maurice Hinchy

Barbara Lee, George Miller to name 3...

[karlrschneider]

295. Well said. I'm sick of all these Cindy Worshippers who put her above our party.

She's just an attention-seeking idiot at this time. Yeah, her motives were fine but her methods really really sucked.

[ProudDad]

395. What the hell is "our party"????

Some of you folks keep repeating that stuff about going against "our party" or dissing "our party".

Can you define what the hell "our party" is???


On Edit: And while we're at it what the fuck is a "Cindy Worshiper"? I know of NO ONE HERE who holds Cindy Sheehan up as their personal savior. No one here has gone into the woods to sacrifice a Democrat to the great goddess Cindy.

While you're defining "our party" maybe you can give us your definition of a "Cindy worshiper"???

[Marrah_G]

380. Sometimes it's like the Anti-Democratic Underground

But then I stop and look and realize that even though there are a large amount of Anti-Democrat posts, they tend to come from the same small group.

[Vinnie From Indy]

264. Is there any doubt that Sheehan's free fall is going to accelerate?

I think she is displaying a pattern of behavior that will get worse and not better. It will not be long before she makes another monumentally stupid comment or pulls a stunt like pissing on and extinguishing the eternal flame at JFK's grave claiming to strike a blow against warmongers of the Democratic Party.

I agree with another poster that offered that those that are enabling and "blindly" supporting anything said or done by this woman should be ashamed of themselves. You folks are doing her no favors by encouraging her bizarre conduct.

[mmonk]

270. Do you have anyone over there in Iraq?

If you do, how long do you want politicians to play politics?

[Marrah_G]

377. It is possible to have a loved one there and not support Sheehan you know.

Doesn't mean we support the war, we just don't like what she is doing.

[ProudDad]

397. Well, WE DO

and we're "Democrats" too...

[MrMickeysMom]

278. That's assuming she's displaying an abnormal pattern

By this reasoned question, you're going to ask when she quit beating her ex-husband, too?

I do not see this behavior as bizarre. You're doing more to piss on JFK's eternal flame. Recall, if you will that JFK asked what we could do for our country. I'd say what she is doing is not bizarre, is not a stunt and that you need to serious evaluate the knee jerk reacters who would also "blindly" join in to question her goal,which I am pretty sure is our goal (well, my goal, at least)

[Vinnie From Indy]

282. What a fascinating reply!

You do not think that publicly blaming Democrats for starting WWI and WWII is bizarre?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

284. I think taking her words out of context is innane.

:shrug:

[Yukari Yakumo]

367. Uh... She actually DID say that.

She also said the Democrats are the party of slavery. Care to defend that?

[ProudDad]

398. Slave-holders in the South

were uniformly Democrat.

As were the perpetrators of Jim Crow in the South...Democrats all.

Factually accurate.

[MrMickeysMom]

318. I would think that was bizarre, yes...

If she said it,

But she didn't say any such thing. Be careful playing the game of telephone where you scramble up the message. This was pretty well explained in the thread form last night.

Remember, it's okay to have something "to say" such as you might view from this action in a public setting. Goal- get it out to the people.

We the people... you know, the ones who like to complain and not do anything (present company excluded, I'm sure)

[ProudDad]

273. This is a duplicate thread

I've already handled this stupidity here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3370855#3371351

[creeksneakers2]

307. You just tossed up the same strawmen

that lots of other Sheehan fans had. Show me one person who said she didn't have the right to petition. You can't.

[mistertrickster]

299. Grow up, folks. This is politics, and it's not pretty. Sometimes you

have to pressure your allies as much as your enemies.

Cindy Shehan is the best voice we've got on our side.

And the difference is while you armchair quarterbacks are doing nothing but posting to blogs, Sheehan and CodePink and Democracy for America (of which I lead a "cell") are out in the street DOING THINGS.

Get going or get the hell out of the way.

[creeksneakers2]

310. If you all out attack your allies

you won't have any allies.

[mistertrickster]

314. JFK wasn't going to do anything about ending American apartheid until

SNCC and King etc. forced the issue.

Even the people on our side need prodding from time to time.

[cboy4]

303. Sad creature? How nice.

:thumbsdown:

[LittleClarkie]

306. Why do you hate Cindy? Why are you a hater?

She is your savior. Blasphemy! Die heretic!



(insert sarcasm tag here)

[Alexander]

317. LOL - so true - the same arguments for Cindy were once used by Bush.

"If you're not with us, you're against us."

Both of them will have about zero supporters by 2008, I think.

[mmonk]

330. So what awful things has she done to this country

that those that respect her efforts and activism are like bush supporters?

[Alexander]

341. She is doing a great job of undermining the anti-war effort.

She isn't nearly as bad as Bush.

But some of her more trollish supporters around here sure do sound like Republicans circa 2001-2004. Apparently I can't be against Cindy Sheehan AND George W. Bush. I have to support one or the other at all times, in the eyes of these people. :eyes:

No one is immune to criticism just because they lost a close relative. That includes Cindy Sheehan when she ignorantly accuses Democrats of starting every 20th century war.

[ProudDad]

401. You don't have to "support Sheehan"

but it would be nice if you'd respect the right of the rest of us who DO support what she's doing.

We don't give a damn whether you support her or not.

We do get tired of these stupid flame bait threads some of you start just to get an opportunity to call us names or tell us to get the hell out of "your party"...

:boring:

[proud2BlibKansan]

315. Asking Conyers to do his job is beyond the pale?

I thought it was called democracy, silly me.

[creeksneakers2]

319. Cindy isn't asking Conyers to do his job

She's demanding that Conyers jump on her side and threatens sit ins and even trying to turn Conyers' base against him.

Conyers is doing a great job.

Who said we shouldn't have democracy? Strawmen from Sheehan's supporters.

[EFerrari]

324. What a crock. n/t

[Maat]

339. I agree. What a crock!

[proud2BlibKansan]

347. Great job?

Could have fooled me. :eyes:

[Name removed]

316. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

326. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZBlue]

323. For a retired person, she sure is busy!

[yurbud]

343. you're wrong. Democrats obviously need this kind of pressure too.

[Vidar]

344. Good for Cindy!

[eridani]

355. No, she's just clueless about how politics actually works n/t

[Raine]

364. Grief seems to have made her bitter

I can see that but at first she channeled into something constructive. Now she seems to have become destructive with it and is hurting herself and everyone else too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

372. I'm Glad I Didn't Post In This Thread....

So many ad hominem attacks...

[cgrindley]

374. Is this a Nazi purge or a Stalinist purge in the making?

Personally, I don't give a shit about Sheehan, and I hate those code pink retards, but I'm finding the psychotic little DU purge in the making to be really really funny. There are a lot of hypocrites on this site. In many ways, this whole topic and its various incarnations reminds me of a bunch of 8 year olds kicking each other out of the George Bush Haters Clubhouse. I'm just hoping that someone's mom makes us all some rice crispy squares and kool aid.

[cassiepriam]

375. Speak truth to power Cindy no matter who they are.

[Beelzebud]

382. Posts like this show me that we deserve the inept government we have.

PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY

That is the battle cry of Republicans AND Democrats.

[robcon]

385. The OP is an outrage.

"What a sad creature she has become."

"THE WOMAN IS OFF HER FRIGGIN' ROCKER."

The idea that Cindy is crazy is awful, demeaning and untrue. She's merely stupid - caught in the headlights of the publicity she was so skillful at attaining.

She's a dope. Calling her crazy is a terrible slander.

[Raster]

390. " a sad creature..." Lordeeeee, some people!

Do you know why bush* and cheney* are still in power and killing children? Because people find it more appropriate and conducive to their latte lifestyles to debate actions of someone COMMITTED to stooping the carnage. Anytime anyone stands up to the beast, a little bit of evil is revealed and then chipped away. Don't ask why Sheehan is challenging Conyers, ask WHY SHE HAS TO CHALLENGE CONYERS. Ask why Conyers isn't screaming from the floor of the House that madmen have stolen our country. And don't give me procedural this, or not enough votes that. It's far far beyond that now.

[BuyingThyme]

399. How did so many at DemocraticUnderground come to hate democracy?

[ProudDad]

402. After lucking out in 2006

They're so afraid of slipping backwards and believe the DLC bullshit that the reason the Dems won was because they "triangulated" and move more to the right. Although the fact is that more Progressive Dems won in '06 than "conservative" ones did.

Scared little bunnies...afraid to support any principled stand for fear it will anger the "voters"...

Just a guess...

[LittleClarkie]

411. Didn't you hear? The freepers have been saying it all along

We're haters. We hate America. We hate democracy and we love terrorism.

[slutticus]

403. I wish more of us were "OFF OUR FRIGGIN' ROCKERS"

[huskerlaw]

404. Cindy has every right to protest

in any way that she sees fit. Tis the joy of the 1st Amendment. Also, I completely support her anti-war message.

However, I don't personally think that her tactics are helping. I don't understand what a sit-in against John Conyers of all people is going to prove. If she wants to talk to him, I'm guessing she could do so without staging a protest. If it's a publicity stunt, I think it's horribly misguided. If it's a sincere attempt to speak to him, I think there are numerous other ways she could do so which wouldn't be so politically charged or as negative.

I guess mostly I'm confused. I don't understand what she's hoping to achieve with this, and it appears to be ill conceived at best and downright stupid at worst. Perhaps it's not what it appears, superficially, but in politics it's all about appearances and, well...in my opinion this doesn't look good.

[book_worm]

406. Your entitled to your opinion but I really resent you calling her a "creature"

She's a living, grieving human being who has done her all to turn this country against the war and is frustrated that the Democrats don't have the guts to 1) stop the war 2) impeach the bastards

[Obamarama]

407. Oh good GOD...enough with the feigned shock at calling her a sad creature....

If any of you delicate beings in your states of high dudgeon would bother to crack open a dictionary, you would see that the word creature is rather a benign moniker.

The reason I very carefully chose that very term is that one of the definitions of the word creature is: "a servile tool of someone else."
Go ahead...look it up in the dictionary. It's there.

The other is "a living human or animal."

It was pitying her, not casting her as the latest incarnation of Nosferatu.

[EFerrari]

408. It's dehumanizing. And this from someone who calls themself

Kazoo.

lol

[book_worm]

412. frankly you can take your dictionary and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

[Obamarama]

414. That's a hilarious piece of advice from someone who calls themselves book worm! LOL!

[IEatskMeKucinich]

410. Good! give them a kick in the patootie , Cindy!

time to get down to business... the peoples business!

[Zomby Woof]

413. She can fuck off