"One Flag, One Language, One Loyalty" (but it's not xenophobic!): Today's strange LTTE

[bbernardini]

http://snipurl.com/1o78j

Some highlights:

"Most Mexican immigrants are hard workers willing to do jobs that many Americans would consider “below them.” In that sense they contribute greatly to our culture, which is becoming increasingly indolent, hedonistic, and self-centered."

"Assimilation of other cultures is central to what has made this country great and sustained it up to now, but only within the framework of American values, laws, and economic system."

"But when our government starts printing voter instructions and ballots in Spanish, Americans should stand up and say “enough!” This is not being xenophobic or un-Christian, as some argue. “Au contraire.” To the extent it helps to preserve this great country for future generations of Americans and immigrants, it is most charitable and welcoming."

Then he closes with a Teddy Roosevelt quote:

“We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

The guy who wrote this is a pretty regular contributor, and an obvious drinker of the Kool Aid.

[Captain Hilts]

1. I'm pro-immigrant, but voting ballots should be in English only. nt

[Recursion]

2. Why?

What makes

Presidente ... Al Gore

worse than

President ... Al Gore

?

There's not that much on a ballot, really. I guess initiatives should be in the language they will be codified in which will generally be English, but other than that, what's the issue?

[Captain Hilts]

5. I'm glad you asked!

My neighborhood has a lot of immigrants from all over the world. China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea and Russia, in addition to those from Latin America. We expect these immigrants to learn English. Despite the large number of Russian immigrants, I never see signs in Russian. Or Korean. And these folks come from cultures with a different alphabet.

When I lived in Russia, I went with very little background in Russian. I did not expect - nor did I receive - special accommodation because I spoke English. Now, some folks working for international organizations were able to live in Moscow without learning much Russian. I realized that because of this, they didn't really fully experience Russia. You can't without knowing the language in a rudimentary way. You don't need to be able to carry on conversations at a party , but I can struggle through a newspaper and I could have voted on a ballot. As you pointed out, you don't need all that much language knowledge to understand a ballot. If you can't meet that minimum standard in another culture, you probably shouldn't be voting. Really.

I welcome immigrants - I grew up in a homogenized military community and just loved moving to Toronto in which there were several distinct immigrant communities - but speaking a minimum amount of English is key to fully experiencing this country.

Just as important, it is specifically because we are a diverse country - that is our strength - that we need one language to help hold us together. Look at what's happened to Canada in recent decades. And the bigotry that the different languages have created on both sides of the debate. What would India be like without a national language?

You're right "Presidente Gore" isn't that much different from "President Gore," so why not say "President Gore?" Korean, Russian, Japanese, and Chinese immigrants can handle "President Gore," why can't Spanish speakers?

And hell, being a native speaker of English won't help when it comes to understanding the initiatives....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. So you say we should do things like the Russians?

Isn't that a little self contradictory?

[Toasterlad]

14. Very Well Said

I am also pro-immigrant, and pro-English. You can not move to a country and expect the country to change to accommodate you. You must change to accommodate the country. That's what the melting pot is all about.

[Captain Hilts]

15. I actually prefer to think of the US as a mosaic, not a melting pot. nt

[Toasterlad]

16. Ah, But a Mosaic Leaves the Original Piece Intact

Everyone changes when their circumstances do, especially when they move to another country, ESPECIALLY a foreign language country. The beautiful thing about American immigration (in theory) is that one gets to retain their cultural identity while absorbing a new national one.

Whenever stuff like this comes up, I always think of the stories my Mom used to tell about her parents, who were both immigrants from Italy. They were thrilled to be part of the country and tried from the beginning to be as "American" as possible. They did not teach their children Italian, and did not indulge in any expression of their "old" culture. This was, apparently, not uncommon back in the '30's, especially among Irish and Italian immigrants, who were not always welcomed with open arms.

It's terrible that my grandparents felt they had to completely deny their "former" selves to live as Americans, but I do wish I could have witnessed their joy at discovering their country. I'd like to think that a happy medium is possible for ALL immigrants.

[Captain Hilts]

21. I have some good friends from Gaza...

and they couldn't be more thrilled to be here. They're more Red, White and Blue than most who have lived here their whole lives.

I understand, and agree with your point, but I like the tip of the hat to diversity that 'mosaic' implies that 'melting pot' does not.

But, I am amazed at how the same people who condemn US tourists for expecting everyone to speak English are often the same ones insisting that our government accommodate those who do not speak English.

When I lived in Moscow, because my Russian stank, I started by reading Sport Express, the national sports newspaper. And when on the subway, as someone who is clearly Anglo-American, you got better treatment if they saw you reading a Russian language paper. In Sport Express, I could read about topics I understood - NBA and NHL and Premier League stuff was discussed in the paper - and learned vocabulary that helped me in economic conversations.

As a member of the falopian forest, I also note that among the Hispanic community, far more male Hispanics learn English than female Hispanics. To me, it's another way of marginalizing - and keeping women marginalized. In addition to the pressures on young, female immigrants to have babies to get a citizen in the house.

[Toasterlad]

17. Dupe n/t

[Recursion]

25. I guess I look at it the other way

I live in a neighborhood that's about 1/3rd Vietnamese, 1/3rd Ethiopian, and 1/3rd Salvadoran, with a very few crackers like me thrown in. I look at this neighborhood as "their turf", and if I'm going to live here I damn well better pick up enough Spanish, Amharic, and Vietnamese to get by.

[Toasterlad]

29. Reasonable

Very practical of you "go with the flow" in your neighborhood. However, that neighborhood is part of larger area that ISN'T predominantly Vietnamese, Ethiopian, and Salvadoran. If your neighborhood is very insular, and everyone gets everything they need inside it, with no need to venture out, then I'd say you have no need to change it. But if they have to frequently venture out for work, commerce, or recreation, well, English IS the common denominator.

[Sapere aude]

37. We are not a melting pot. We are a country with many different cultures and people have a right to

preserve their heritage. There is nothing in the Constitution or in our laws that says everyone must assimilate into one culture. You may be more comfortable if everyone where the same but the immigrants themselves may not be.

I personally welcome the diversity in this country and celebrate it. I love ethnic celebrations and trying different foods and learning about the different cultures.

What a dull country we would have if we all fell into the pot and melted together.

Over time, the children and grand children of immigrants are more Americanized but the parents and grand parents should be left to celebrate and teach their children about their native cultures.

[Toasterlad]

38. Please Read My Second Post

"Melting Pot" does not traditionally mean that everyone becomes the same. Rather, it refers to the richness that diversity brings to society. Learning English does not in any way deprive anyone of their own unique cultural background.

[Recursion]

24. Umm

Despite the large number of Russian immigrants, I never see signs in Russian. Or Korean. And these folks come from cultures with a different alphabet.

I do, and tons in Amharic too.

[Captain Hilts]

33. I'm not talking about commerce, but government, etc.

Private businesses can use Klingon for all I care.

[Recursion]

39. Well the local community services center is "government"

and it's got banners and signs in Vietnamese, Russian, Amharic, Korean, Spanish, and French. The post offices have signs in those languages too. I guess it's that quaint old idea of actually serving the taxpayers who are funding you.

[sniffa]

47. so did you vote for yeLtsin?

those baLLots must have been torture.

[Vilis Veritas]

8. Does speaking another language in America effectively...

keep people from advancing?

I ask becuase my wife is Chinese and she has had several jobs turn her away for apparently no reason other than 'their impression' of her.

She has a Master's degree. She is bright, friendly and very intelligent. She does her job well. Yet her boss in a recent interview, told her that she had to take a ESL class to improve her speaking ability. Greatly humiliated, she did. She spoke with her peers and they could not understand it. She just got rave reviews from the business side on a presentation she had done.

I am a little concerned that the current drive to allow the dual language society os to create a PERMANENT underclass. I just do not know for sure and it is a very sticky issue...now if you ask my wife...it is cut and dry.

English is the language that leads to advancement in the US.

:shrug:

Peace.

[Captain Hilts]

13. That's bigotry.

I wish more people in this country could speak more than one language. We don't take that seriously enough in our schools and the government needs to offer more English language classes as they're full.

What you're describing is bigotry. And a bit unusual. The National Institute of Health here in Bethesda is full of Chinese immigrants whose speaking skills aren't that great, but whose analytical skills and educational backgrounds are. I'm sorry to hear of what your wife has experienced. Perhaps in the scientific field people have a different take on this kind of thing.

[Vilis Veritas]

19. I think it is her boss.

He is an ass. He rolls his eyes when she speaks. I almost slapped him silly, but my wife would not allow it...that and the fact that my son wants his dad at home and not in jail...

Her masters is in Computer Engineering. So is mine. There seems to be a lot of animosity about job loss...or something...I have to walk away from a lot of conversations, lest I do that jail thing...being a hot headed Scotsman is not conducive to remembering my talking points. When I see red, I have to walk. ;-)

I grew up in the south. I was part of the VERY first experiment with forced segregation. I have dodged bullets as a ten year old and seen my principle fire a few rounds to disperse the marchers who were going to kill any white kid they found. Yep, WHITE kid. I was one of 22 WHITE kids bussed across town. It happened on both sides back then. I was there.

I have little tolerance for racism, bigotry, or hatred of ANY people. (edited for spelling)

Peace

[Captain Hilts]

22. That stinks! Come to Bethesda...Come to Bethesda....

where many of the computer jockeys and engineers are immigrants whose langugage skills aren't nearly so good as your wife's.

I grew up in a military ghetto where we were all kind of homogenized as military kids. In some ways that's good, in other ways it's not. The sub force was very white and most of the black kids were marine corps kids. So, I really appreciate and enjoy living in Toronto, or Bethesda where I encounter people from all over the world.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Why?

You would rather have people making bad choices, or spoiling their ballots, because they are unfamiliar with the language, rather than making good choices, voting effectively, by using ballots in a language they are comfortable with?

Don't forget, ballot initiatives, bond proposals, etc., are written in legalese, are often badly written ("vote yes to not support the denial of the initiative") making them barely comprehensible even in English - why make it harder for people who have been speaking the language for only a few years?

Democracy is about expanding the franchise, not limiting it.

[Captain Hilts]

6. By becoming a citizen / voter...

you are agreeing to become part of something bigger than yourself. I.e. the U.S. You cannot do that if you do not have a rudimentary knowledge of English. You shouldn't need 'men', 'women', or 'danger' written in English. Candidates names should be self evident.

You don't come here to recreate what you just left.

And it's not fair to make special effort only for those coming from Spanish-speaking backgrounds. Again, we don't accommodate Russian, Korean, Japanese or Chinese speakers similarly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. So the Declaration of Independence, translated into Spanish,

does not have the same meaning as the declaration in the original language?

What draws people here are the sentiments embodied in our founding documents, not the language they were written in. This is not the first time we've dealt with this. I'm sure that in some locales, at the turn of the century, you could find ballots written in Yiddish and Italian and German - to accomodate recent immigrants. After a few years, when they assimilated, it became a moot point and the dual-language ballots fell by the wayside.

The US does not have an official language. Its defacto language is English, and there is no sign it will ever not be so. To deny recent immigrants ballots in the language they are most comfortable with is to infringe upon their franchise. When they are no longer needed, probably within the next 15 years, they will no longer be used.

Why is it an issue? It's no skin off your ass if someone uses a dual-language ballot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. A reminder about Spanish

We have at least two areas under U.S. jurisdiction where Spanish is an official language.

1) Puerto Rico

Puerto Ricans are American citizens and travel freely back and forth between the island and the mainland. On the island, Spanish speakers are an overwhelming majority.

2) New Mexico

I'm not sure if this is still true, but for years, English and Spanish were both official in New Mexico, and laws were published in both languages.

Therefore, it is possible to have legitimate U.S. citizens who are more comfortable in Spanish than in English.

This is not true for most other languages.

Until we have sufficient ESL classes for everyone who wants to learn English, I'm willing to give people a break on this. My church in Portland sponsored about five refugee families while I attended it, and I know from experience how long the waiting lists for affordable ESL classes are. Imagine being a Kosovo Albanian, speaking nothing but Albanian and a little Serbo-Croatian, and then being told that there's no room in local English classes.

If I were Immigration Czarina, I'd do what the Israelis do with Hebrew: require all new immigrants to either already be proficient in English (you can determine an individual's level of proficiency in a language in a brief but carefully structured interview) or to attend a six-week, publicly funded "language camp" before they do anything else.

[Captain Hilts]

23. I wish you were the immigration Czarina!

Yes! We need far more ESL classes.

And let's pay instructors a good salary!

[kineneb]

27. and if we honored our treaties, California also

Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo said that there would be two official languages in the new territory of California -Spanish and English.

General experience of past immigrants- first generation rarely learns to speak English well, second generation is bilingual, third generation are English speakers. Fourth or fifth generation then studies the original language to understand their heritage. That was the way it was in my family (German being their language). I have a degree minor in German.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. About German

In the nineteenth century, there were so many German immigrants that Anglos worried about being swamped by them. (Even today, 1/3 of Americans have a German ancestor somewhere in the mix). They had bilingual schools, German-language churches, German-language social clubs, and German-language newspapers. Minneapolis, where my grandmother was born a few weeks after her parents arrived from Germany, even had an all-German neighborhood where you could survive quite nicely without learning English.

[kineneb]

50. great-grandma's baptismal certificate was all in German, circa 1870s

except for the place of birth- a county in northern Kansas!

My grandmother told me that there was a German Saturday School held at her elementary school in Lind, WA; this was of course before WWI, when German speakers were threatened with deportation unless they stopped speaking the language.

In some areas the German community has revived the Saturday School tradition. The SF Bay Area has a number of the schools, along with a thriving German-language choral association. I was an assistant director in my local "Chor".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. My grandmother attended German summer school

and her parents insisted on speaking German at home.

However, she never visited Germany until she was 67 years old, so her German was very Americanized. She said that the children of the immigrants all spoke German but preferred English, even when speaking to other young people in their ethnic group.

The only really proficient adult speaker was her younger sister, who married an immigrant and made extended visits to Germany every couple of years.

[SayWhatYo]

4. I think everyone should speak klingon...

If you don't like it, then I have disruptor with your name on it.... actaully it has my name on it, because it's mine, but you know what I mean.

[Captain Hilts]

7. Did you see folks at the Yale Divinity School are translating Bible passages into Klingon?

Isn't that a riot?

[SayWhatYo]

30. lol,I never heard that. That's hilarious though. I'd probably read that too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer

The letter is a parody.

[kineneb]

26. Jawoll.

Und "Arbeit Macht Frei".

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. It's "Ja, voll."

;-)

[Codeine]

41. I though it was "Jawohl."

Or am I missing a joke?

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Sorry

My little joke...

Not a good one, I know.

[kineneb]

51. and I was being dyslexic in two languages...

there is a reason I am a musician and artist...writing is not my long suit, no matter what language...

[bbernardini]

28. Based on the letter writer's other LTTEs, it's NOT a parody.

I suppose that the person creating the headlines for the letters might have written that one as a jab at the letter writer.

[The2ndWheel]

10. It depends on what you want

Is it more important to have diversity, or is it more important to do business? You really can't have both. Not in a global economy anyway.

[Bandit]

20. We have room for but one flag, the American flag,

Evidently he didn't spend any time in the South. Confederate Flag seems to be quite prominent down there

[LanternWaste]

31. white-bread, homogenized, sanitized language with an official stamp of approval

And once we have a white-bread, homogenized, sanitized language with an official stamp of approval, the bigots will find a New and Improved Reason to marginalize "them".

But wow! It seems to me it would cost so much to make english the official language-- in just San Antonio alone it would probably run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars to change all the official stationary to 'Saint Anthony'. And let's not even think about Muskegon, Michigan getting changed to' Tall Green Tree, Blue Water'.

As for me-- I think being human is enough a common trait to share with everyone. The rest of it allows us to more fully educate each other and to appreciate all the wonderful differences, regardless of what the imaginary red and black lines on the maps dictate...

[Captain Hilts]

34. By not learning the language of your new country you marginalize yourself.

I chose not to live in a English language ghetto in Moscow and read English newspapers. I could have done so.

History is not on your side to think that "being human is enough of a common trait." I wish it were. It isn't.

[Sapere aude]

36. I do not understand why what Americans do in foreign countries matters in relation to what we do

here.

It does not hurt you in any way to accommodate someone who is a non English speaker. We pay tax money to print ballots in Spanish but we would spend the same printing them in English and leaving the Spanish off.

I do not think that we have to have only English spoken here. We are a diversified country and we are getting more so.

The person who is really at a loss by xenophobia is the xenophobe because of all the negative energy and anger it creates in them. That has to have a bad effect on their system and besides why spend the time being a xenophobe when you can just let it go and be in the here and now?

[Toasterlad]

40. Oh, Please.

If you choose to live in a country, you'd think you'd want to be able to communicate with the people of that country. When Americans go to France, they have no right to expect that there be signs in English everywhere, or that everyone is able to converse easily with them in the English language. Why should foreign language visitors here expect anything different? THAT is what other countries have to do with it.

Your argument seems to imply that it takes something away from the cultural identity of immigrants to have to learn the language of the country they've chosen to move to. That's just not true. No one is telling them they can't speak Spanish anywhere they choose. However, why is the rest of the nation under any obligation to conform to THEIR way of speaking? They moved HERE, we did not move THERE.

Spanish streets signs, ballots, and such serve to marginalize Spanish-only speaking immigrants and aid in their oppression. If they want to be Americans, they must assimilate into America. That means making the effort to learn how to communicate.

[Sapere aude]

42. I live near two towns in CA that are 95% Hispanic. There are more Spanish signs than English

ones on the stores. The towns are Arvin and Lamont. If you go there you feel as if you are in a different country. The people will accommodate you and speak English to you most times but they will not speak English to each other.

Like you my grand parents were from Italy, Naples to be exact, They moved to Pittsburgh, PA and lived in an Italian ghetto. My grand mother never learned English and her kids spoke both Italian and English.

I am constantly surrounded by other cultures and I have no desire to have them not live the way they chose to. That's just me.

[Toasterlad]

46. Other CULTURES Are Fine

Language is not the end-all and be-all of culture. It's not necessarily a good thing that visiting those towns is like visiting a different country because the signs are all in Spanish. They are American towns, and if they want interaction with other Americans, they should at least put up signs in English as well. If they can speak English, presumably they can read it, too. Why do the signs need to be in Spanish?

I don't understand the desire to move somewhere else and try to turn that place into the place you left. If the place you left is what you love, why did you leave? If you love the new place, make the effort to assimilate.

[Sapere aude]

48. In the place they left they could not earn a living like the place they came to.

Basically they have made the place they came to the place they left with the ability to earn a living.

If they could make a decent living in Mexico I think they would never have come here. They did not come here to become Americans. It is purely survival and nothing else. They are like turtles, they brought their home with them. I think we can accommodate that. It doesn't bother me at all to go to Arvin and be among the immigrants there. I even worked in the city building as a temp for a while and got to know the mayor well.

When you stop trying to make them into your image, I think you gain something by accepting them as they are. You gain a sense of peace not having to play the role of a xenophobe. That's how it was with me. I was very anti immigrant years ago. I found it to be like pissing into the wind. Or like trying to hold back the waves.

[Toasterlad]

49. I Kind of Have a Problem With People Coming to America...

...who don't want to be Americans. I mean, I get that they really can't make a decent living in Mexico, and I truly have no problem with them coming HERE to make one. I would like them to do it legally, and I would like the system to be altered to make that much easier, but I understand that that's often contrary to the reality in which we live. However, I do feel that if they're going to come to this country to take advantage of a better way of life, the least they can do is become American. That does not mean they have to give up any aspects of Mexican culture. It DOES mean that they should make an social investment into the country, recognizing that they are American citizens and accepting the same rights and obligations we all have. Part of that is learning to communicate with their fellow citizens.

It is not xenophobia to foster communication. I enjoy the opportunities I've had to encounter new cultures and have always made an effort to appreciate them as much as possible. It is not too much to ask for immigrants to the US to do the same.

[Sapere aude]

54. You are right it is not too much to ask of them, but I doubt the first generation will do it.

Their kids assimilate into the youth culture of America and learn English and generally do better financially than their folks.

[kineneb]

52. CA by treaty is supposed to be bilingual!

That is what is in the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo.

Of course, the US gov. has never really honored its treaties, just ask the indigenous peoples.

[baldguy]

35. Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Fuhrer!

Sometimes the RW nuts just make it too easy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Why not profanity as the national language? Everybody speaks that.

And, on a ballot, it would be entirely appropriate when dealing with politicians.