Kevin Drum to David Ignatius: Cut the crap and admit no Dems want "pell-mell" retreat from Iraq.

[BurtWorm]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_07/011670.php

STRAW MEN....David Ignatius today:

Getting into Iraq was President Bush's decision, and history will judge his administration harshly for its mistakes in the postwar occupation. But getting out of Iraq is now partly in the hands of the Democrats who control both houses of Congress. History will be equally unforgiving if their agitation for withdrawal results in a pell-mell retreat that causes lasting damage.

Can we please cut the crap? There are virtually no Democrats — and certainly none with any real influence — who are advocating a pell-mell retreat. But for some reason every columnist in the world seems to find it necessary to warn us against this nonexistent straw man. Why?

Those of us who want to leave want to do it in an orderly way. If the Pentagon says it will take 12 months, that's fine. 18 months? Also fine. It just needs to be real. Nobody wants to endanger any American lives by ignoring legitimate force protection issues, and I'm really, really tired of lazy writers who continually imply otherwise on no basis at all. Knock it off.

POSTSCRIPT: The rest of the column is about whether we should withdraw completely or whether we should leave a residual "training force" in Iraq. That's fine. It's a genuine argument. It would, however, be a far more genuine argument if Ignatius and others explained how the residual force actually had any chance of accomplishing anything. As Stephen Biddle persuasively argued yesterday, it's one of those things that's politically attractive but militarily untenable. In fact, I'd say it's the worst possible option available.

[OHdem10]

1. Thank you Kevin Drum!!!

I have been so concerned. On every news, talk show esp. Cable
Networks, even the anchor or hosts repeat WH talking point.
implying that the Democrats just want to up and pull out precipitously.

Of course they now are doing it almost every hour on the hour.
My theory is by hook or crook we will be starting a drawdown
soon. The Republicans want to maintain their superiority by
saying (when it happens) we did it responsibly. The Democrats
would precipitously pull out.

Our party has difficulty recognizing story lines not to let stand.

Not one Democrat in House or Senate wants to pull out precitously.
Ask the American people. The Media and Republicans have given
them a different picture. THe DEMS have to learn the importance
of TV. and the framing of stories.

Thanks K. Drum.

[MrPrax]

2. Which crap are we cutting?

Cutting the crap about the illegal genocidal imperialist occupation of a innocent sovereign country and then making public plans to occupy and rule it for the next 50 years to siphon off the oil supplies and gain control over the world's energy sources, ready to kill millions over the right of conquest?

Last time I looked democrats were in favor of hegemonic control....

To change your text slightly:
"There are virtually no Americans — and certainly none with any real influence — who are advocating that the President of the United States being indicted for war crimes.

But if you insist your strawman debate; it does actually boil down to rule of law and as far as the Dems looking bad or good on this issue is a little irrelevant I afraid....the democrats are clearly in favor of the continued occupation and a projection of American power...and that makes them the SAME as the Republicans and Bush and have carefully stage managed opposition to the war simply to carry them through '08.

But it appears supporters are still spinning their horseshit about how it's the Media that's doing all the bad coverage and how if the Media REALLY examined the Saudi/Bush angle and traced all that back to the oil industry in Texas, then America would rise up and take back their country. *snort*

Riiight...a country that puts people in jail for listening to music is NOT capable of even recognizing a "genuine argument" especially when they egotistically take on the pallor of moral conviction and fight political wars with religious slogans.

Good vs. Evil, Right vs. Wrong, Us or Them, undefined but powerful phantasms and Gods, but at the same time shovel Orwellian propaganda suggesting that the 'enemy' doesn't really have any political grievances (they kill so they can fuck) because that would cause 'we western phonies' to confront our materialist ambitions, our hypocrisy towards law and our very time-honored institutions.

When the Democrats stop the Christo-Fascism of the well-intentioned Good Samatarian, Uncle Sam, who kills million for 'safety', freedom and his 'way of life', then I will take them seriously.

But in the US the situation is really beyond this partisanship....stomach-turning really.

[BurtWorm]

3. Very well said, Mr. Prax.

I appreciate your comment on this thread. You get quite a bit closer to the ugly truth than Kevin Drum did.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with a situation in which Democrats are the best institutional hope for extracting the troops from Iraq. If the American people became angry enough about what is being done in their name, they could theoretically stage a rebellion to shut the war down now. But the odds are better for an institituional solution to the problem to become reality than that Americans uncharacteristically take the reins back from the ineffective politicians.

[MrPrax]

5. What about the Russians?

Institutionally at LEAST the poor 'western' shit-upon commies Russkies try to impeach Yelstin TWICE. Nothing Russians did was violent -- they simply gathered in their streets. Why? Because in hindsight communists have developed a higher respect for public spaces, public institutions and public policy.

When people are atomized into forced materialist individualism -- your not likely to even get consensus on a rebellion anyway, let alone on whether the Prez is a crook or even if something is a movie. Base always dictates superstructure. It might be Marxist, but I haven't seen a single modern western country where there is an exception.

You simply articulated that their is a legal and a illegal route-- the fact of the matter is the only illegal 'going on' right now is the executive branch of the US government and the continued refusal of elected politicians to follow those same laws.

When Kissenger was hired by the Chinese to spin Tiamamen Square, Kissenger was absolutely right when he asked an interviewer about clamping down on 'freedom', to name a western government that would allow a protest even with permits in front of their government building in their capital? Let alone have it grow to tens of thousands over the space of 4 weeks. The ghoul made a point. In my country the Office of Prime Minister colluded to have the RCMP arrest a lawyer on his own property for holding a a sign to protest the visit of an Indonesia dictator. Of course being Canada, nobody including it's courts ever question the PM. Did the sheep look up when their 'freedoms' are taken away -- they never do.

When we are reduced to a conversation where 'rebellion' and revolution are seen even less likely than legitimate law-abiding acts of duly elected politicians supported by a large segment of the public through already existing institutions.

We've been fooling ourselves about our institutions to begin with...they are not on our side and they never were.

And now they're broken.

[BurtWorm]

6. Again, very well said.

Our institutions in this country are clearly broken to smithereens. If the Clinton impeachment didn't lead one to realize it, the selection of 2000 and everything after it ought to have sealed the deal for anyone.

But it is going to take lightning striking to scare Americans out into the streets and in front of their government buildings to call the criminals out.

[OHdem10]

4. Excellent posts but the Crap they are discussing

is the idea that the Democrats are incapable of executing an
exit from Iraq. When talk of preciptous exit.---they are
implying the Democrats will just tell everyone to come home.

This makes the Republicans look as if they are the only
party capable of protecting the country.

All the lofty posts in the world mean nothing if the people
are led to believe we are incapalbe of organizing a two
car parade much less--skillfully and safely in an orderly
way bringing our guys in Iraq home.

[Poiuyt]

7. I do

Of course, I don't have any real influence.