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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:00 PM
Original message
Great News about Human Population Growth
The UN population division and other demographic experts have been revising their peak population numbers downward.

At one time, peak population was feared to be in the tens of billions. Then it was revised down to 12 billion.

But fertility rates continues to plummet -- caused primarily by voluntary birth control, the emancipation of women and urbanization! Now the peak population is estimated to be around 9 billion sometime in the mid 21st century.

Even happier news is that all the things that progressives already believe in contribute to the decline in population growth -- some counter-intuitively, such as decreasing infant mortality:

Providing medical care to pregnant women and children reduces the infant mortality rate. When the infant mortality rate is very low, parents are assured that their children will live to adulthood. They therefore voluntarily decide to have fewer children -- usually 2 or fewer. In other words they don't try to have as many children as possible to ensure that at least some make it to adulthood. They invest in quality childhoods rather than quantity of children. Providing medical care to children actually reduces population growth.

Enhancing women's rights contributes to the slowing of population growth. Women, who face the most pain, health risk and labor burden from child-bearing and child-rearing generally choose to have fewer children -- if they have the power to do so. The more power women have in a society, the fewer children they choose to have. Giving women power gives them the power to choose birth control.

Free or cheap, reliable birth control has revolutionized demographics. Birth control is choice and progressives support choice for women. In developed countries, birth control has led to fertility rates that are below replacement rates; but surprisingly, even in developing countries, birth control has caused fertility rates to plummet.

Food security, development assistance and education also lead to lower fertility rates. Ironically and directly counter to the views of neo-Malthusians, famine is a great engine of population growth, while food security is an engine of population growth restraint. Famine and hunger cause children to die disporportionately among age groups. That encourages parents to have more children as an insurance strategy. Giving parents and children food security leads them to have fewer children in the same way that medical care and reducing infant mortality do.

So implementing progressive policies world wide could lead to even lower peak population estimates!

I realize that 9 billion itself seems like a grim number but it is far superior to twelve billion. Moreover, the world is entering a demographic phase of literally plummeting fertility rates -- in many countries to below the magic "replacement" fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman, which implies zero population growth or even "sub-replacement" fertility rates that imply a slow decline in overall human population. Much of Europe is already developing plans to deal with slowly declining populations. The United States has a sub-replacement fertility rate when immigrants are excluded.

But there are ecouraging if somewhat shocking good results elsewhere. Researchers were surprised to discover that even Ethiopia's urban fertility rate has plummeted to below replacement rate. Iran has managed to embrace demographic restraint and birth control leading to one of the fastest plummets to sub replacement fertility ever recorded -- and this in a Muslim country whose leaders just a few decades ago was urging people to reproduce. Even the mullahs of Iran have embraced birth control! Researchers have found that if the women of India had access to birth control, they would have only replacement fertility rates.

So we have an excellent opportunity to have a "soft landing" in population rather than the population explosion and crash that so many have been fearing for decades.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-12-09-worldpop-usat_x.htm

http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update4ss.htm

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2710401.html

http://www.uclaforecast.com/uploads/forecasts/2004/september/articles/global_demography.asp


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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. All these things are factors. Which is why the abstinence program in
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 02:29 PM by applegrove
Africa is terrible. It doesn't stop AIDS, it doesn't help women build easier lives for themselves.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Very true
That's why I was so surprised to hear that even the Iranian mullahs have adopted a realistic approach to sex even if the fundies in the White House won't.
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DrRang Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. But are our boys "shooting blanks?"
I'm not trying to be facetious here, but it may be that dropping sperm counts are an important factor. I've seen a couple of studies--not enough to nail down a conclusion, but enough to wonder--indicating that males in industrialized countries, particularly the U.S., Europe, and Australia have severely plummeting sperm counts, something like a drop of about 3% a year. The younger the men, the lower the counts. One study said the sons of women who eat lots of beef show significantly lower counts than others in their cohort. The suspected causes are chemicals in general, particularly agricultural chemicals since the effect is more marked in farming states.

There's certainly been a drop in teenage pregnancy rates. The fundies credit "abstinence only," the liberals credit honest sex education and availability of condoms." Like I said, I haven't seen enough info to give this much weight, so chime in if you have data. There does seem to be solid evidence that many other species, particularly marine or amphibious ones that are more susceptible to polluted water, are having their reproductive biology scrambled big time.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think the reason is other than what they publish.
People have eyes and brains. The feedback loop works.

I don't have kids, and nobody I know except for one, (who only has one child now that he just reached 52 years old, and for very specific reasons) has any children. It's because we have been watching in disgust. We watched our fields turn into 7-11's and concrete parking lots. We watched our insects disappear. We watched as housing prices increased until we couldn't afford them. We saw and didn't breed because of it. Now maybe we're the few, but I have about twenty friends, and none of them have kids.

The one who did have a child actually called me to apologize. He named him Noah for the impending doom that awaits him. He had a child because his mother just died. And his wife's brother and father both committed suicide within a year of each other. In other words, they need someone in their lives.

That's my story.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. There is a theory that when people are pessimistic ...
about the future they postpone or decline to have children, and that's probably part of the picture.

But what is surprising about recent stats is that the collapsing fertility rates are occurring in all different kinds of societies -- affluent, poor, pessimistic and optimistic.

I think it's really about giving control to families, whatever their outlooks. The lesson seems to be that few people really want to have more than 2 children.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. And perhaps the cost of it all.
Money and time.

None of it matters to me any more. My life is ruined. I'll be lucky to pick up the pieces. I'm tired and distressed. I've left the place that was home to me, never to return. I can't find a place that isn't ruined by houses, cars and people.

But that's not something that interests anyone here. Just an honest account of what this phenomenon has done to one person who actually watches and sees.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I'm sorry to hear that. Here's something similar
I grew up in NYC but visited my grandmother's farm in Virginia every summer. We had fresh eggs from her chickens, country butter, biscuits, game, well water. Everything was cooked on a wood burning stove. At night it was pitch black and we could see millions of stars.

Sometime in the 70s the night sky began to brighten because of light pollution from the nearest town. After that suburban sprawl began to approach the farm. I can barely bring myself to go down there now.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I know. That's just the kind of subtle but important stuff I'm talking about.
It's maddening.

And it goes on and on from there. I ride a bike. I could write a long post just on how that has been affected. My beautiful bike riding is gone. And in the bike forum, about every few months, we lose a member to a car. Incredible.

When I grew up in Palo Alto, even as late as it was (1959), there were still dairy farms and fields and orchards.

And in my real estate journeys, I have met very old people who have relayed to me what it was like when they were kids. From the mountains, the Bay Area was a quiltwork of flowers in fields. Now it's cars and asphalt.


I once had a property that was so remote there were no lights. I didn't take it for granted.

It's hard to accept this loss. I can tell you have the same sense of grave loss. Not wanting to even go back to the farm.

I'm trying to keep it all together. And I'm not doing a very good job. Once you experience the good life, second place just doesn't cut it. Plus, I've put a lot of thinking into this. My parents grew up without tv. There were fields and farms. And no impending doom. Yes, world war two. But that was temporary. Even the 50's were beautiful. But for my generation, we saw the tail end of the beauty, and then were denied it. They were satisfied, and we weren't. And I carry that with me every moment of every day. I just pray that I find that beautiful place where I can hide from it all, SOON.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. So much of this is unnecessary greed
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:20 PM by HamdenRice
Why do people feel they have to live in a "new house"? I live in a 100 year old house that I am slowly fixing up. There is no reason that the real estate industry has to constantly creep into the farmland areas and forests. I think the European ideal of maintaining urban environments for hundreds of years is great.

I am constantly debating another DUer about whether supporting our population requires us to destroy more and more of the environment. It doesn't.

I remember as a kid growing up in Queens, NYC, there were still farms even here! Now that old farm is a Home Depot. What for? There's another home depot in an older urban area about 5 miles away.

I also remember when sodium vapor lights came in, around the early 1970s, vastly increasing light pollution. It's like they just turned off the night sky.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. i think i have missed something gregorian
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:21 PM by pitohui
My life is ruined. I'll be lucky to pick up the pieces. I'm tired and distressed. I've left the place that was home to me, never to return


i've been away from the site, reading this post and your post after it about your bike riding has been ruined, i am concerned that you have been seriously injured pr experienced another tragedy, i do not mean to snoop, i just want to say "somebody cares"

my area is v. bike unfriendly and i'm aware of folks hurt or killed over the years, including a young colleagues of my husband's, run off the road and killed, the killer never found

what a world

6 billion miracles is enough in my view, 12 billion still means extinction of most species and mining of most of the wild :-(

i compare the starry skies of arizona of decades ago to the pitiful obscured skies of this fire season, and it's enough to make you ill, the children of tomorrow will never know the stars, except "star" as another word for "celeb"
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. DU is so ful of great people.
You haven't missed anything. Well, I did post something in the pet forum a half a year ago. And that was the death of the only true love I've ever had. I'm still hurt to my core. And that didn't help matters.

But I, like other here, was blessed with vision and vigilance. I see what is so obvious. And my pain comes from the destruction from what others refuse to see. It's no different than being an Iraqi. And in fact, my distress is somewhat learned. My family came from immigrants who had to leave their homes. And as a result, there is a negativity that is passed down. Genocides reverberate for generations. I'm sure the Iraqi kids will experience that.

Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised in my future. But my past has been suffering. I wanted to live where I grew up. But I wouldn't drive through the place now. And yet most people claim it's the best place to live. And that adds insult to injury for me. What a great place it was. One can hardly afford the property tax on the house I grew up in. Millions for an acre? And I wouldn't take it.

My pain comes from this- When I no longer could tolerate where I grew up, I had the country to move to. But when that disappeared, I had nothing.

Speaking of bike rides. I have moved near a place with some fantastic mountain biking. I am just up the street from the town of Mendocino. Which by the way is anything but what it was only ten years ago. It's more like a tasteful Disneyland getaway now. But to get to my bike ride, I have to drive my bike or risk being killed. This tiny tiny road that was silent a few years ago, is now more like a small highway. It's maddening.

I can hardly turn my head around for seeing something that disgusts me. I can't even watch a rerun of the Three Stooges for seeing what the communities used to look like. That's as deep as this goes.

It's perpetual mourning. And I've got it made. Money, don't need to work, live in about the best place in the country.

So for the next two hours I will ride my bike and be in bliss. It's my only medicine.

I long for "home". And now I'm worried that even when I find home I will carry my distress with me. Now I wonder if after all of these years it has become permanent. Only on DU have I opened up my soul to everyone. It's uncomfortable to do so, but maybe it's the first step. Counseling never did a thing for me. And I truely believe it's very similar to what we are experiencing with Bush. Disgust on a chronic level.

It's good to know that I'm not alone. I see a number of people here who value beauty and who are distraught at the loss of it.

Well, I better get pedaling! :) The redwoods await.

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. you are not alone
your post reminds me of some of the writings of ed abbey for one

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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
51. Mendocino is a beautiful town.
Re >>I have moved near a place with some fantastic mountain biking. I am just up the street from the town of Mendocino. Which by the way is anything but what it was only ten years ago. It's more like a tasteful Disneyland getaway now.<<

I just saw it for the first time in my life a week ago, after my daughter and I spent the previous week at a retreat in the Mendocino Woodlands campground--I'm sure you know the place. I understand what you mean about "a tasteful Disneyland," though. That was my impression too--VERY yuppie and touristy, and of course way beyond my price range. I looked at the flyers in the window of a real estate office just for laughs!

Of course there could hardly be a bigger contrast between your circumstances and mine...I had to come home to San Bernardino, the only place I can afford to live on a fixed income. I did manage to miss worst of the heat wave, though...I was told it was 108 degrees in San Bernardino the day I came home (last Friday). By Saturday it was about 10 degrees cooler, though.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Hey, you might have seen me riding my bike...
I end up in the Woodlands just about every day. That's the landing zone from all of the great trails. I go from one mountain peak to the other and back. Pretty darn fun. There have been several groups there lately. Otherwise it's empty for us bikers all year. The latest was a dance camp.

Of course Mendocino seems nice. But if you had been here ten years ago, you'd understand. There was nobody here. You could lie down on Main street and never get run over. Now it's just a drive from the Bay Area. It's all a subjective comparison. I grew up in Palo Alto when there were orchards and dairy farms. But people coming from New Jersey thought it was heaven on earth. That's how things get destroyed for those who are natives to the area. They are the ones who always lose out. I'm now struggling for my life to find my next home. And of course it's not going to be anywhere nearly as nice as what I was forced to leave. I'm dying here. Even if I could stay in Mendocino I'd be happy. But I can't. I'm looking in Oregon.

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Oh how dare he have one child! That scum!
Jesus, get over yourself. Don't make anyone feel bad for having a kid. Makes the f***ing pro-lifer crowd sound like they are right about us. I love kids but we don't ever plan on having more than 2. Between my wife and I we've both got above 150 IQs and are relatively healthy. Why should we leave it up to idiots to secure the fate of the genepool and write our own out of the human race?

People who have 1 or 2 children aren't the problem. It's assholes (fundies) like this: http://www.duggarfamily.com/ or the poor folks living in utter poverty without access to proper education/financial stability/birth control that have 10 kids.

I get pissed when anyone gives me crap for having a kid. We've got love and enough money and time to raise a child. She's also a little joybringer.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I think you misunderstood me.
I have no problem with him having a kid. In fact, what I was saying is that he is so sensitive to population that HE HIMSELF WAS THE ONE APOLOGIZING.

Hey, remember Sneddon the Michael Jackson prosecutor? Ten kids.

But Dick Gregory also has ten, as great a man as he is. It spans all mentalities.

Most people are in denial about this problem. That, and they just don't realize the ramifications. It takes a special education to put it all together.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Aye, that they are
I suppose in this country you can't do much more than warn people but it still amazes me just how the how someone can have the TIME for 10 kids. That's insane. They end up raising each other at that point!!!

Sorry for the misinterpretation but none-the-less I feel that your Friend has nothing to apologize for.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. That would be fine if the rest of Earth's living community were stable. But it ain't.
70,000 species go extinct annually as a result of our culture's behavior on the planet. Is anyone still ignorant that humans aren't on some higher order of life than every other living thing in the world? Our survival absolutely depends on the survival of millions of other species. How many species will be going extinct every year when our population doubles to 12 million? 300,000 a year? Is there any solid reason to believe that humans won't soon end up on that list?

You're missing that over-population is only a symptom, although it does create a feedback loop with the problems that caused it in the first place.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I wouldn't worry too much about extinction though
for two reasons one being that extinction has been going on since the first life forms evolved. the second one being that new species will eventually evolve to replace those that are lost.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Good news, you aren't required to worry that the extinction rate is 1000 times above "normal".
Of course extinctions have always occurred. However scientists now recognize that we are in a period of mass extinction as a direct result of our culture's "conquering" of the Earth.

"The best guess of biologists is that species are disappearing between 100 and 1000 times as fast as they were before Homo sapiens arrived. But our impact is different from the mass extinctions of the past. They wiped out whole groups of animals, notably the dinosaurs, whereas humans are picking off individual species. In the past, biodiversity recovered as species spread into new ecological niches, but humans are wiping out niches as well as organisms. Wildlife will have a tough time regenerating.

The winners after the mass extinction that finished off the dinosaurs are about to become the losers. One in four mammal species and one in eight bird species face a high risk of extinction in the near future: the population of each species is expected to fall by at least a fifth in the next 10 years. Almost all are endangered by human activity..."
http://motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/12/12_508.html


The Holocene extinction, left unchecked, will ultimately claim us as well. All it will take is the wrong cascade, or simply weakening the earth's ecosystems to a tipping point that can no longer support our way of life. Cereal grains are fickle; a temperature change of a few degrees might kill them all off. With 90% or more of our diet coming from just a few, closely-related grasses, our entire, global population is essentially in the same precarious boat as the Irish of 1845.

Diversity is strength; diversity ensures survival. The human population is growing, while the number of species takes an unprecedented nose-dive. The amount of life is not changing, but biodiversity is plummeting. We are, pound by pound, replacing every single lifeform on this planet with a corresponding unit of human flesh. We are reducing the planet's biodiversity to a single species.
http://anthropik.com/2005/07/the-holocene-extinction/


Mass Extinction Underway, Majority of Biologists Say Washington Post
Tuesday, April 21, 1998
Page A-4

By Joby Warrick, Staff Writer

A majority of the nation's biologists are convinced that a "mass extinction" of plants and animals is underway that poses a major threat to humans in the next century, yet most Americans are only dimly aware of the problem, a poll says.

The rapid disappearance of species was ranked as one of the planet's gravest environmental worries, surpassing pollution, global warming and the thinning of the ozone layer, according to the survey of 400 scientists commissioned by New York's American Museum of Natural History.

The poll's release yesterday comes on the heels of a groundbreaking study of plant diversity that concluded than at least one in eight known plant species is threatened with extinction. Although scientists are divided over the specific numbers, many believe that the rate of loss is greater now than at any time in history.

"The speed at which species are being lost is much faster than any we've seen in the past -- including those related to meteor collisions," said Daniel Simberloff, a University of Tennessee ecologist and prominent expert in biological diversity who participated in the museum's survey.

Most of his peers apparently agree. Nearly seven out of 10 of the biologists polled said they believed a "mass extinction" was underway, and an equal number predicted that up to one-fifth of all living species could disappear within 30 years. Nearly all attributed the losses to human activity, especially the destruction of plant and animal habitats.
www.equalearth.org/wildlife.htm


www.green-networld.com/facts/species.htm
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. and how does it compare to some of the greatest mass extinctions of the lifespan of the earth.
also consider that in the earths earliest history it may have been sterilized a few times before life took permanently.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. When you have the time, check out the links I provided. nt
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Uh, so, you want to compare the curent, anthropogenic mass extinction event with mass extinctions...
from Earth's past and conclude WHAT, exactly? That "hey, we're only half as bad as the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs!" perhaps? Bad news: mass extinctions generally wipe out the larger life forms-- and we're a larger life form.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. and our species will eventually go extinct. I do not consider that a bad thing.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I don't think we will.
We are like yeast in a wine vat: we use up all resources and eventually die back.

But:

We are like cockroaches in a kitchen: we are resourceful and adaptive, and you can't kill us all.

The question is, if some of us survive the bottleneck, how do we make sure we don't screw up the rest of the world on our next try? See post #56 for my thoughts on that question.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. first off I very much doubt that our world is the only one with life
so as long as there are stars that give off heat and light there will undoubtedly be some sort of life. secondly I think that about the only way mankind could exterminate all life on earth would be to literally vaporize the planet, something that is definitely beyond our technological capacity. This is simply because life can exist, at least in microscopic form almost anywhere, so eliminating all life to the point where a new ecosystem cant evolve to replace what we have destroyed is almost impossible.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Care to provide a little more data about that?
Many of the species that go extinct each year are from the destruction of the rain forest. Many are highly specialized variants on other species. In other words that estimate is based on the bio-diversity of many of the environments that are being destroyed. While any extinction is terrible, many have little impact on the overall viability of the system.

Moreover, there is no reason whatsoever that they have to go extinct. The reason people continue to penetrate the rain forest has to do with bad economic incentives, flawed tenure systems and imperfect land markets. We could easily feed 9 billion with the land that has already been converted to farm land by increasing yields.

You seem to be disagreeing with the experts who, on the basis of demographic science, have concluded that peak human population is going to be 9 billion, not 12 billion. Do you have some special information or expertise that the UN or US census bureau lack?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. See post #19 and do a boolean search of "mass extinction & scientists".
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:18 PM by greyl
HR: "You seem to be disagreeing with the experts who, on the basis of demographic science, have concluded that peak human population is going to be 9 billion, not 12 billion."

The point is, the way we are supporting the current 6 billion is accelerating toward the tipping point for disaster, at least from a human perspective and the perspective of the community of other life on Earth. Earth will be just fine without us.

Also, there is more than one organization making predictions about population, and we should agree that none of them are flawless. Even so, let's assume human population peaks at 7 billion. There is no evidence that the methods our now globalized culture uses to support itself and its continued expansion into indigenous areas is sustainable.
We are not alone on this Earth, and humans are in fact dependent on the rest of the community of life's survival. Interdependency.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. "Aw Jeez, not this shit again"
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:10 PM by HamdenRice


You are once again incoherently all over the place. So is your view the population will be 12 billion? Or 7 million (sic -- was that supposed to be billion?)

I know, I know, this is the part where you start advocating that the west deliberately withhold food from famine stricken populations in Africa in order cause a mass die off so that they are in balance with the alleged carrying capacity of their land -- even though your claims have been debunked again and again and again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=97344

The point is that we have 6 billion plus people and if we are lucky that number will rise to no more than about 9 billion. Experience has shown that generous social policies actually accelerate population stablization. No one except the nut job author you are constantly promoting advocates starving out people to reach some mystical balance.

We can take care of each other, improve the lives of billions, feed the poor and help them achieve self-sufficiency in food, and protect the environment all at the same time.

That's the message of the new demographics and development assistance.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
67. Posting falsehoods about what I advocate doesn't address the data.
n/t
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. No 10 (Billion) in 2010???
Sweet Jesus I hope it's true...

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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. We're already above carrying capacity. And the #1 per capita consumption nation is still growing.
That's right, the U.S. is growing by the equivalent of a very large city every year. All these people are sustained by fossil fuels, "fossil" water, and fossil fertilizer. And the bubble will burst on oil production sooner than the U.N. would ever admit. Yes, 9 billion is better than 12, but it's still more than the natural carrying capacity.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not really.
US population is growing almost exclusively because of immigration...if you factor immigrants out, our population has been fairly stable for a while now. Those immigrants come here from OTHER countries, where they have already been counted as global population growth.

Basically, population growth in the USA doesn't impact the rest of the world. On the contrary, it actually helps to reduce population pressures in other areas of the world by shifting excessive population here. New immigrants don't gernally consume the way longtime Americans do, so their growth has little impact in that area too.

There are, of course, negative environmental and social consequences of population growth within the US irrespective of the origin of the growth. My point is simply that it has little impact on the rest of the planet (and unless you advocate sealing the borders, there is little that can be done about it).
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Absolute, total bullshit. The U.S. population uses more resources per capita...
than any other nation anywhere near its size. Total energy, for ex.: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_usa_per_per-energy-usage-per-person
#1 United States: 8.35 TOE per person
#2 Canada: 8.16 TOE per person
#3 Finland: 6.4 TOE per person
#4 Belgium: 5.78 TOE per person
#5 Australia: 5.71 TOE per person
#6 Norway: 5.7 TOE per person
#7 Sweden: 5.7 TOE per person
#8 New Zealand: 4.86 TOE per person
#9 Netherlands: 4.76 TOE per person
#10 France: 4.25 TOE per person
#11 Japan: 4.13 TOE per person

No other nation with a population over 100 million is even in the top 10. You can't "factor immigrants out" because they consume resources just like the rest of us. And every immigrant that comes here from a country that uses less resources per capita than the U.S. (i.e. EVERYWHERE else) has a net NEGATIVE impact on the world's resource availablity. The U.S. is NOT a "release valve."
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. BS. Know many immigrants?
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:57 PM by Xithras
I do, and to a person they're all incredibly poor, working two and sometimes three jobs to get by. Not one owns a huge McMansion, not one drives an SUV, and the only one with a swimming pool has a little three foot deep rubber above ground thingie. They generally shop at thrift stores, don't take vacations, and live lives that most of us would find depressing. They are NOT as wasteful as the average American simply because they cannot afford to be.

As for the energy cost vs population, you are ignoring an important factor...economic development. Of all the nations with more than 100 million people, only Japan, Russia, and the USA can be considered first world countries. All of the other nations above the 100 mil mark have vast populations of people who live in dire poverty, in dirt floored homes with no healthcare, no sewage treatment, no modern water systems, and no jobs beyond sustinence farming. They all have cities which are exceptions, of course, but most Americans would call rural India "Hell" if they actually had to live there and live lives like they do, using only their technology and resources. Those nations don't have low total energy numbers because they have uncovered some great societal secret, they have low TOE numbers because they're so frigging poor that the average person cannot even afford the basic modern neccessities that would register some sort of energy usage. That's not something to be envied.

And Japan & Russia? Japan has low numbers because of its astronomical population density. If there is a model to emulate, it's the Japanese...everything is within walking distance or a short train ride away. Russia qualifies as "First World", but mostly because of holdover amenities from the Soviet days. The average modern Russian is too poor to afford a car of his own, and resources are scarce for those who aren't rich. Again, the people live like sh*t because they can't afford any better.

The solution isn't to lower our standard of living to theirs, it's to reduce the impact of our standard while bringing everyone else up. So far, Japan is the only populous nation to pull it off.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Do they use less energy and resources here than in their home countries? No.
That's the point. I know that first-generation immigrants who have not been in the U.S. long use much less energy, water, etc. than other U.S. residents. But they still depend on the energy-sucking U.S. infrastructure for transportation, food supply, housing, etc. etc. There's no way they use less than they did at home. People don't come to the U.S. to downgrade their lifestyle. The people I've met who've come to the U.S. came to afford a single-family residence, at least one car per family, and give their children a better lifestyle. Every one of those goals results in greater per capita consumption for the immigrants in question. We are in general as wasteful as we can afford to be, and in the U.S. you can afford to be much more wasteful, even if you just got here.
That's all beside the point that immigration into the U.S. adds to the total U.S. consumption of resources, which is unsustainable.

Your point about Japan doesn't make any sense. They have one of the highest total energy consumption rates per capita in the world. You're correct in saying that theirs is lower than ours due in part to more efficiently-structured infrastructure, and of course I advocate we re-structure our society voluntarily before we inevitably are forced to do so. But if every person on the planet used 4.13 tons of oil equivalent energy per year (Japan's consumption)-- well, it would be physically impossible. The world energy production last year was approx 77,000,000,000 Gigajoules. 4.13 TOE X 41.868 GJ/TOE X 6 billion people = 1,037,490,000,000 GJ (14 times what was actually produced). The answer is to reduce world population AND consumption, and end the ridiculous mindset that ties quality of life to consumption indices.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Carrying capacity is a very elastic concept
We are no where near the carrying capacity of the United States' resources. Of course in our current lifestyles, we are depleting resources and polluting the environment in an unsustainable way. But we could easily live more modestly on our current resources for a very, very long time. The first step is getting rid of cars.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Oh yeah? What's our carrying capacity without the 1.7 quadrillion Btu of energy we pump into our ag?
Our fertilizers and pesticides are synthesized with fossil fuels or mined from fossil deposits. The fields are worked using fossil fuels. The produce is processed and transported using fossil fuels. It's an enormous energetic subsidy that will disappear in our lifetime. And the soil is so worn out in many places that it would take years of intensive organic agriculture to bring back decent fertility. In the meantime, people would starve.

And then there's the land that we currently farm using aquifers that are being depleted faster than they recharge. When that water's gone, that land is no longer arable.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I think you've answered your own post
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 03:50 PM by HamdenRice
"it would take years of intensive organic agriculture to bring back decent fertility"

Maybe not so many years. A couple of plowed under seasons of alfalfa and re-routing all those pig shit lagoons to the fields.

But think of the energy intensive agriculture we are carrying out as shortcuts based on stored energy. But it's not the only way. As the price of energy rises, inefficient modes of agriculture will be replaced by efficient ones, like intensive organic agriculture.

Just as with population there's no reason to believe we are going to just keep doing the same thing until its too late. We're already in the midst of the great shift now and with leadership we will make the shift before it's too late.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Organic agriculture is not a magic bullet. It cannot restore soil fertility overnight.
And in the early going it certainly won't produce yields anywhere close to those produced on the same land using fossil fuel, fossil water, and fertilizer subsidies.
Also, just because it's efficient when measured by energy:energy in ratio, doesn't mean it can feed 300,000,000 (likely more) people. It will likely be BOTH more efficient AND produce a smaller total yield. That would be a disaster all the same.
And this still ignores the fact that a lot of land will have to be utterly abandoned due to the fact that it can't be farmed sustainably in the first place (not enough water), and climate change will make some areas un-farmable.
300,000,000 is far too high.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. The yield is the same or better
"Organic farming can yield up to three times as much food as conventional farming in developing countries, and holds its own against standard methods in rich countries, U.S. researchers said on Tuesday."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1317743

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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Sure, but not immediately on over-worked soils. And it is more labor-intensive.
Where does the energy for that labor come from? From food, grown in that soil. I'll bet that if you deduct the yield eaten by the producer and his animals or machinery (biofuels) from the total yield, the net yield would be lower than for energy-subsidized ag.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Exactly.
We realized Mutual Assured Destruction was insane, and backed away from it.
We realized we were destroying the ozone layer - and stopped doing it.
We saw Jupiter get slammed by a comet, and started cataloging all comets that might hit to us.
We are rational creatures.
We will stop global warming, and we will move to sustainable technologies and lifestyles.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
54. Yes, we are not lemmings
Maybe Bush and his cronies are. But people can anticipate problems and with the right political systems, address them -- like the examples you cite. Why so many neo-Malthusians want to conceptualize humans as no more intelligent than animals puzzles me.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. And then there is this also..
In the US there are many boomers who will die younger than their parents did, due to unaffordable medical care(insurance)..and the children of boomers who have eaten "processed" food since they got teeth, may end up with some addtional life-shortening health issues too.. :shrug:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yup, even uber-doomer Paul Erhlich author of "The Population Bomb"
"Paul Ehrlich, famed ecologist, answers readers' questions
Q. Do you still believe -- as you've said in the past -- that population growth is the No. 1 environmental problem, and that coercion "for a good cause" to slow population growth should still be our first priority? -- Peter Walker, Eugene, Ore.
A. I think trends in population are in the right direction, but still too slow. China, of course, has done miracles with a relatively coercive program, but I think now we could get birthrates where they belong without much coercion. The worst population problems are in rich nations, especially the U.S., because of their very high rates of consumption. Consumption is, in Anne's and my view, the single most difficult problem to deal with now -- as we discuss extensively in One With Nineveh. Times have changed -- population control, especially among the rich, is critical, but consumption control today is probably more critical and certainly tougher to achieve."
http://www.grist.org/comments/interactivist/2004/08/09/ehrlich/index1.html

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. When even he has changed his mind
it's a good sign. He is correct that the big challenge is not how many of us there are but how we live and what we consume.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. I hope people check out the entire link you provided.
Or at least read your single quote carefully: "...consumption control today is probably more critical..."

The human population has doubled since Ehrlich wrote that book in 1968.

Ehrlich: "Anne and I have always followed U.N. population projections as modified by the Population Reference Bureau -- so we never made "predictions," even though idiots think we have. When I wrote The Population Bomb in 1968, there were 3.5 billion people. Since then we've added another 2.8 billion -- many more than the total population (2 billion) when I was born in 1932. If that's not a population explosion, what is? My basic claims (and those of the many scientific colleagues who reviewed my work) were that population growth was a major problem. Fifty-eight academies of science said that same thing in 1994, as did the world scientists' warning to humanity in the same year. My view has become depressingly mainline!"
www.grist.org/comments/interactivist/2004/08/09/ehrlich/index1.html
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. kick
:kick:
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. Yay, partially because of "the worldwide toll of AIDS". That IS great news.
From your link: www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-12-09-worldpop-usat_x.htm

Btw, I think "news" is usually considered to be something much younger than 3-6 years old, which is the age of your links.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. You are the one who is always hoping and praying for a mass die off
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 11:47 PM by HamdenRice
so it's somewhat surprising that you would highlight the minor role that AIDS plays in the collapse of fertility.

In other words, in many of your posts elsewhere on DU you are happily enthralled by the prospect of mass human die off and genocide.

Oh, but I forget. AIDS is simply a disease condition of humanity. You want actual deliberate mass killing and genocide through the withholding of food aid, so I suppose AIDS isn't murderous enough for your tastes.
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seasat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. Devloped countries need to shift their policies
I was thinking about this the other day. A lot of our tax structure, social programs, and economic policies are hinged on an increased population. We provide tax incentives for marriage and children. Here in Florida, it seems that they base their tax structure on increased population growth. Social Security works best when there is a steady increase in population. I'd like to see someone address these issues and shift the emphasis to programs and policies that are tailored to a declining population. We could then focus more on increasing the quality of life for those at the bottom of the income range.

(BTW, great post, recommended it)
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. yes, SSI is a pyramid scheme. nt
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
40. Slowing population growth is a red herring.
Edited on Thu Jul-12-07 05:19 PM by GliderGuider
Yes, growth is slowing, and women's education and empowerment programs are contributing to that. You are ignoring a number of inconvenient counters to your rosy view, though.

The first is that the the earth's long-term carrying capacity, when considered in aggregate, is nowhere near enough to support the current human population at its current level of overall resource consumption.

The second thing is that the signals of human overshoot have become undeniable - from global warming to resource depletion of minerals and whole species including fish, to pervasive chemical pollution, to resource wars such as Iraq, to the creeping famines at humanity's margins, to the widening wealth gap between rich and poor individuals and nations. All these things are signals of overshoot.

The third is that the only thing that has enabled our numbers to shoot so far over the long-term carrying capacity is the planet's one-time gift of fossil fuels. This has also enabled our underlying destruction of the biosphere of which we are an inextricable part.

The fourth is that global oil production is about to start declining, and that decline will probably reach rates of 6% per year within a decade.

The fifth is that there are no technologies or physical substitutes that will allow the continuing loss of oil to be offset in the time frame remaining before the loss becomes globally significant (i.e. within 10 years or so).

The sixth is that the economy that powers our civilization has as its central shibboleth the principle of permanent growth. If you doubt this, try borrowing money from a bank and offering them a negative return.

The seventh is that studies in evolutionary psychology have shown that consumption, reproduction and competition are genetically driven traits that are almost impossible to alter within the species as a whole (though individuals may not be so constrained). This means that our current patterns of behaviour are unlikely to change in the short or medium term.

The eighth is that our civilization is a complex adaptive system, and so follows the progression of all such systems. They go through a growth phase characterized by increasing productivity, efficiency and interconnectedness along with a directly related loss of resilience. This decreasing resilience (or increasing brittleness if you wish) makes the system vulnerable to "synchronous breakdowns" or failure cascades as a result of external shocks. When that happens, the system can enter a release or collapse phase in which its organization changes abruptly, resources are released, and the system regains resilience at the expense of productivity. In short, big complex systems are disproportionately vulnerable to small shocks. Human civilization is the largest, most complex system ever built.

So here we have a huge, complex, brittle system built on the foundation of a depleting, non-renewable resource and depending on a damaged environment with diminished carrying capacity. If this system receives a series of shocks (such as repeated local interruptions of its energy supply) the resulting failure cascades can disrupt the overall organization of the system to such an extent that the cohesion provided by its interconnections fails (and ironically those connections of which we are so proud become the pathways for failure).

What has all this theorizing to do with population? Because we are a global species, continuing growth of our numbers is at this point dependent on the continuing growth of our civilization. Humanity does not grow through demographics alone, there must be a sufficient level of food, shelter, energy and medical care available. All these factors will be put at risk globally within the next two decades due to the loss of oil. As they go away, our ability to keep people alive will decline.

As our ability to maintain a complex high-energy civilization is compromised by the loss of its master resource, Liebig's Law of the Minimum will come into play to stop its growth. Food production and distribution will be hampered or in some cases made impossible, and due to the damage of soil and water local agriculture will prove very difficult in some places. If medical care erodes, so does infant mortality and longevity. The erosion of urban sanitation systems will have an identical, and possibly greater, effect. The effects will be highly variable, with some places like the United States suffering from the catastrophic decline in net global oil exports that is now underway. Other countries like those at the bottom of the list of developing nations will simply be too poor to compete against the developed world for the resources needed for survival. Populations will fall as a result.

Based on my understanding of the oil situation and my developing understanding of man's position within the earth's ecology (especially that we are in at least a 50% overshoot situation without oil's help) I predict that the global population will never rise above 7 billion, and that it will start to decline very steeply within two decades, leveling out at a billion or so by the end of this century.

In the face of our physical circumstances, it matters not at all which demographic theories you prefer. In the face of overshoot and 10 to 20 year time lines they are all moot.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Best post in the thread.
You captured my thoughts on this very well, GliderGuider. Thanks.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Excellent post
very well written
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. kick for GliderGuider's post. And hoping he'll make an OP of it. nt
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-12-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. Very very well done.
I spit and sputter a few lines to try and communicate what I have spent a lifetime observing and thinking about. But you have summed up just about every aspect. There are more.

Oh how I would have benefited from spending some time with people like you, twenty years ago. I have simmered in my own solitary frustration.

But thank you. I appreciate knowing there are others out there. It really seems there are none. I am so glad to be wrong about that.

Sadly, we've boxed ourselves in to a dangerously dependent and unsustainable corner.

I have hope. Believe it or not. I just wish we could have learned one thing before it was too late-

LIMITS.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. Very good post
But then I've heard this before from your website and yourself personally.

It's a bleak picture. But we need to face it, if not in our own lifetimes but that of our children and grandchildren.

We owe that much to them.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
53. This is not just pessimistic, but nihilistic and wrong on most of the facts
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 06:11 AM by HamdenRice
1. Carrying capacity is not, as most neo-Malthusians believe, fixed. For example, where land is plentiful, labor stretched thin and technology expensive as in Mashonaland in Zimbabwe, farmers will generally use a farming system involving plowing land and broadcasting seeds. That provides one level of productivity per acre. But where land is scarce, labor is plentiful and simple technology cheap and abundant, such as the rice paddy areas of China or the terraced agricultural areas of Indonesia, farmers use intensive rice systems, based on recycled organic waste and human or animal powered threshing, and the yield will be many, many times greater. It's not that one system is "better" than the other; it's that each is adapted to its particular environmental and economic context. If conditions changed, Zimbabwean farmers -- and by extension farmers in many parts of the world -- could adapt to a much more intensive system. In much of the agricultural world farmers are no where near the carrying capapcity of the land given existing technology. Moreover, most farming systems are based on renewable resources -- the land, rain and cycles of fertility.

2. Most of the evidence of "overshoot" you present is evidence of greed, stupidity and the failure of government to regulate rather than any absolute lack of resources. For example over-fishing occurs because people like fish, fish is cheap and produced by nature rather than people, and governments refuse to limit catches. But fish is a substitute for other protein sources like chicken, not the only source of protein. Similarly, famines are not caused by lack of resources. Amartya Sen won the Nobel Prize for showing that famines are caused by social systems not by resource scarcity. The most famous example was the Irish potato famine; Ireland exported food throughout the whole famine. His Nobel prize winning theory can be summed up this way: famines are not caused by there not being enough food; they are caused by poor people not being able to afford the food that is available. Again, as with demographics, social reform can end famine. Sen has also pithily stated about India that as soon as India became a democracy, it never experienced another famine, because it is impossible for a democracatically elected government to survive allowing famine.

3, 4, 5. Fossil fuels have been used because they are cheap and abundant. As fossil fuels become expensive people will substitute other sources of energy. I'm always amazed when people assume that we have no choice but to sit stupidly and watch the oil run out. With the right incentives, as oil runs out we will substitute other sources of energy, which become economically viable as oil becomes economically non-viable. It will be a gradual replacement of one source for the other, not the complete depletion of one source. The techological challenges of substituting other forms of energy are trivial; it's the entrenched economic interests and laissez faire attitude of certain political regimes that prevents us from doing so in a timely way that will minimize economic disruption.

6. The consumption society is a particular social construct that we live under today in the United States. It is just not true that every society all through history has been a excess consumption based economy. You are posing a political/cultural characteristic of 20th century America as an unchanging human characteristic.

7. If characteristics like excess consumption and reproduction were genetically based they would be unchangeable. But the OP shows that where people are given choice and a simple technological fix, they constrain their reproduction to replacement or below replacement levels. How is this possible if the drive to maximize reproduction is genetic? It seems that your statement is counter-factual. If excess consumption was genetically based, then humans would have to have been like Americans at every stage of history on every continent. They haven't so your statement is again counter-factual.

8. Rather than being brittle, the world economic system is extremely diverse and flexible. Again, you seem to be generalizing from late 20th century early 21st century suburban America to the world. If these crises you are concerned with happen, what do you suppose would be the effect on the 800 million Chinese peasants who have never owned a car? Or the 600 million or so Indian peasants?

While I appreciate your sense of urgency, your conclusion seems to be a nihilistic fantasy. Whether it was the best possible outcome or a bad outcome, for better or worse we now have 6 billion people and an economic system that produces more than enough food for them -- even though because of the terrible inequality built into our economic system, many people cannot afford the food that is available. We use our economic system to feed vast numbers of animals so that some humans can eat themselves into early death by eating too much meat. We use other parts of our farming system to produce useless gadgets and toys. But we have the "carrying capacity" to produce enough food for well over 12 billion people and have, through improvements in human welfare, discovered that we will never have a population over 9 billion. That means that we have averted a catastrophic fate and can build on that success.

The neo-Malthusian alternative offers us nothing. What do you propose if you believe your outcome is true? That several billion of us slit our throats on the unlikely possibility that we won't be able to feed everyone in the future? That we deliberately withhold food from the poor to starve them into balance with their alleged "carrying capacity" as one DU poster is fond of promoting?

Your scenario may be fun to think about in a summer catastrophe movie kind of way but the people who have the best tools to study this problem have almost unanimously come to different conclusions from you, and I'm more convinced by what they have to say.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Facts, interpretations and conclusions: the Population Debate continues...
Thanks for a stout defense of your position. I'm always fascinated when people can look at the same set of data and arrive at diametrically opposed conclusions. That speaks strongly to the role that personal psychology plays in how we react to the world. There is precious little chance that either of us will convince the other of the validity of our position given our mutual level of personal investment in our own worldview, but in the interests of the onlookers I thought I'd offer some follow-up comments.

1. Carrying capacity is not, as most neo-Malthusians believe, fixed. For example, where land is plentiful, labor stretched thin and technology expensive as in Mashonaland in Zimbabwe, farmers will generally use a farming system involving plowing land and broadcasting seeds. That provides one level of productivity per acre. But where land is scarce, labor is plentiful and simple technology cheap and abundant, such as the rice paddy areas of China or the terraced agricultural areas of Indonesia, farmers use intensive rice systems, based on recycled organic waste and human or animal powered threshing, and the yield will be many, many times greater. It's not that one system is "better" than the other; it's that each is adapted to its particular environmental and economic context. If conditions changed, Zimbabwean farmers -- and by extension farmers in many parts of the world -- could adapt to a much more intensive system. In much of the agricultural world farmers are no where near the carrying capapcity of the land given existing technology. Moreover, most farming systems are based on renewable resources -- the land, rain and cycles of fertility.

The analysis of carrying capacity is fraught with uncertainty and differing interpretations. I define carrying capacity as the level of population an environment can support over the long term (i.e. many generations) without degrading the ecology of that environment. This may be somewhat more strict than others, but it comes from my Deep Ecology perspective. That position requires the recognition of the intrinsic value of the other life forms that share the environment, and their intrinsic right to continue to exist even in the presence of a human population. Deep Ecology also recognizes that humanity exists as one element of life among many in the biosphere, and that all life in an ecological niche is interdependent to some degree.

The conclusion that I draw from these principles is that carrying capacity has some upper limit. A sure sign that the upper limit has been reached is if the carrying capacity of a niche begins to erode for at least some of the species that occupy it. Are we seeing such erosion of carrying capacity in the world today? My conclusion, based on signals as diverse as glacier retreat, the vanishing of fish stocks in the world's oceans, declining soil fertility in the American Great Plains by 50% or more in the last 100 years, and declining global per-capita grain production is that we have reached or exceeded the earth's carrying capacity. Others with different definitions of carrying capacity or different value systems may disagree.

Humanity has always used technology to increase the productivity of our environment. This should not be confused with an increase in carrying capacity, however. Such an increase in productivity has always been gained at the expense of the other occupants of that environment. While such appropriation is is a normal feature of any species, ours has been so aggressive that it has driven other species to extinction in the process. While the extinction of other species is seen by some to be an unfortunate but essentially inconsequential byproduct of our activities, it doesn't take much of a shift in perspective to understand that if life is an interdependent network, humanity reorganizes and removes its nodes and connections at our peril. We have a very incomplete understanding of how this system functions. The Precautionary Principle warns us that in the face of such incomplete knowledge we must err on the side of caution lest we run afoul of Unintended Consequences.

The expansion of productivity has in the past also been achieved through an expansion of our territory, drawing lands previously uninhabited by humans into the domain of our ecological niche. This is no longer possible, as our ecological niche now comprises essentially the entire globe.

2. Most of the evidence of "overshoot" you present is evidence of greed, stupidity and the failure of government to regulate rather than any absolute lack of resources. For example over-fishing occurs because people like fish, fish is cheap and produced by nature rather than people, and governments refuse to limit catches. But fish is a substitute for other protein sources like chicken, not the only source of protein. Similarly, famines are not caused by lack of resources. Amartya Sen won the Nobel Prize for showing that famines are caused by social systems not by resource scarcity. The most famous example was the Irish potato famine; Ireland exported food throughout the whole famine. His Nobel prize winning theory can be summed up this way: famines are not caused by there not being enough food; they are caused by poor people not being able to afford the food that is available. Again, as with demographics, social reform can end famine. Sen has also pithily stated about India that as soon as India became a democracy, it never experienced another famine, because it is impossible for a democratically elected government to survive allowing famine.

Certainly humanity has has behaved stupidly and greedily, and has failed to regulate its activities appropriately. I don't see this as a moral failure on the part of humanity, to be rectified with education and tongue-lashings. Rather, I see it as part of our nature with both biological and cultural components. Your rebuttal appears to shift the burden of ecological protection from individuals to regulatory agencies. The question is, if people are in fact capable of directing their behaviour rationally, why are such agencies even necessary? Should individual fishermen not realize that it isn't in anyone's best interest to keep fishing until no more fish can be caught? Certainly individual fishermen realized that (as in the case of the Northern Cod on Canada's Grand Banks) but it appears that any voluntary reduction in catches was immediately overwhelmed by the actions of fishermen from other nations. Why was that? Did those foreign fishermen not care about the state of the seas, or did they see the oceans as a rapidly replenishable resource, or did they see any problems they might create as purely local in scope? It was a combination of all those factors, along with a healthy dose of self-interest that seems to be inherent to our organism. Why was no regulatory action initiated until after the evidence of collapse was incontrovertible? I maintain that it is virtually impossible for a regulatory agency to institute curbs on resource utilization before frank evidence of scarcity is apparent. As you yourself point out, any body that tries such a thing will be voted out of office, either directly or indirectly. the end result is that everyone tries to download the burden of famine onto someone else by maximizing their own resource utilization.

3, 4, 5. Fossil fuels have been used because they are cheap and abundant. As fossil fuels become expensive people will substitute other sources of energy. I'm always amazed when people assume that we have no choice but to sit stupidly and watch the oil run out. With the right incentives, as oil runs out we will substitute other sources of energy, which become economically viable as oil becomes economically non-viable. It will be a gradual replacement of one source for the other, not the complete depletion of one source. The technological challenges of substituting other forms of energy are trivial; it's the entrenched economic interests and laissez faire attitude of certain political regimes that prevents us from doing so in a timely way that will minimize economic disruption.

Here we come to the crux of the matter. Your view is supported by economists world-wide, while the oil companies in turn support them with the message that there's lots of oil left anyway. I believe this view is a faith-based position, and has precious little objective support from the available facts - facts both of technology and social behaviour. 88% of the world's energy is derived from fossil fuels. Aside from hydro power, less than 2% is derived from renewable sources. There is a lot of activity in the renewable energy sector as oil prices increase. The issues that make me less than sanguine about the possibility of a smooth transition from fossil fuels to renewables are:

- The time frame is so short. According to my analysis Peak Oil is here now, and demand has already started to fall behind supply (that's why oil is trading over $70).
- The rate of production of replacement transportation fuels is very low, and and even this low level of production is having negative impacts on both the environment and food prices.
- The net energy of the replacements that are being introduced is declining. Net energy ranges from 90% for conventional crude oil, through 60% for oil sands syncrude, to 30% or less for ethanol. The lower the net energy, the more the energy economy needs to invest in itself, and the less there is for the end consumer.
- Alternative forms of transportation energy (e.g. battery vehicles), while technically feasible, appear unlikely to penetrate the market in sufficient quantity to offset the rate of oil decline I predict.
- As the price of oil rises, so does the cost of many of the feedstocks required for these new energy sources. The equation turns out not to be quite as simple as we'd been told. Just ask Suncor in Fort McMurray what has happened to project costs in the Alberta Tar Sands.

The question of belief enters the picture when you ask questions like "When will the oil peak happen?", How severe will the post-peak decline be" and "How vulnerable is our civilization to interruptions in its energy supply?" It is possible for reasonable people to differ on their answers to these questions, because this is an unprecedented event in human history, and we won't really know the answers until it is upon us. I base my conclusions on a good-faith analysis if the data I have available, and I hope those on the other side of the fence are doing likewise.

6. The consumption society is a particular social construct that we live under today in the United States. It is just not true that every society all through history has been a excess consumption based economy. You are posing a political/cultural characteristic of 20th century America as an unchanging human characteristic.

Well, it's a little wider-spread than that. The consumption imperative is evident in at least all OECD countries, plus India and China. In fact, the whole theory of Demographic Transition depends on societies being consumption-oriented. There is nothing peculiarly American about a society increasing its consumption, it's just that America is the prime modern exemplar of this tendency.

7. If characteristics like excess consumption and reproduction were genetically based they would be unchangeable. But the OP shows that where people are given choice and a simple technological fix, they constrain their reproduction to replacement or below replacement levels. How is this possible if the drive to maximize reproduction is genetic? It seems that your statement is counter-factual. If excess consumption was genetically based, then humans would have to have been like Americans at every stage of history on every continent. They haven't so your statement is again counter-factual.

Genetics doesn't turn human beings into automata. The current view of evolutionary psychology is that our genetic makeup predisposes us to behaviour patterns, and that in a group these tendencies are best understood as a statistical integration of the individual tendencies of its members. While an individual or a relatively small group may exhibit countervailing behaviours (such as reducing consumption, declining job promotions, or having no children) the larger the group you consider, the more the overall behaviour normalizes to the genetic predisposition. The smaller the group, the more likely it will be that its behaviour trends away from the norm.

There appears to be a genetic mechanism selected into every reproductive species, from bacteria to flatworms, robins to rabbits, tigers to chimpanzees that favours excess reproduction beyond the replacement rate. It's easy to understand why that is a general rule of nature. In an environment where there are predators this is a survival-positive trait: if a few individuals get eaten, the species isn't threatened. However, when there are no predators, it's catastrophic. Think of the rabbits in Australia. We are like those rabbits: we have no predators except ourselves. The result is a human population that has quadrupled in a century, to which we add over 75 million new members every year.

The question of why we see declining human birth rates when the genetic predisposition is the opposite is fairly simple to answer, though more complex in action. Human beings, as I said above, are not genetic automata. Their behaviour is influenced by a wide variety of factors including resource availability, the stability of the social environment, the perception of expanding or contracting opportunity, and the perception of whether the benefit of extra children outweighs their cost. It's likely that these considerations are evaluated quite differently from place to place. I'd put good money on the last one (cost/benefit) being a very important factor in explaining why reproduction levels are much lower in developed than developing nations, for example.

There is one other explanation that deserves mention. Reg Morrison, in his book "The Spirit in the Gene" postulates that humanity is exhibiting a population curve typical of any "plague mammal" in an environment with excess stored resources. His explanation for the drop in birth rates is that it is the herald of the peak and crash of the population as the resources are overrun. I find the support for his argument to be somewhat weak, but it's a suggestive idea that may bear thinking about.

8. Rather than being brittle, the world economic system is extremely diverse and flexible. Again, you seem to be generalizing from late 20th century early 21st century suburban America to the world. If these crises you are concerned with happen, what do you suppose would be the effect on the 800 million Chinese peasants who have never owned a car? Or the 600 million or so Indian peasants?

I suggest you look into the research of The Resilience Alliance for a better understanding of complex adaptive systems and resilience. The system I am talking about is indeed our current civilization. It's obvious to me that earlier civilizations were much more resilient than ours. Take for example the fact that the Black Death did not decimate North America or that previous collapses of civilizations like the Romans or the Mayans did not resonate far beyond their borders. A trivial but trenchant example of how interconnections like transportation make a civilization more vulnerable is the global effect of the Spanish Flu in 1918.

Their own car ownership or lack of it is not what will affect those 800 million Chinese peasants. What will affect them is global warming brought on by the oil consumption of the 1.2 billion people elsewhere who do own cars, or perhaps the loss of medical supplies if manufacturing and distribution networks break down. Or the loss of clean water as the upper echelons of their society struggles to industrialize with coal.

While I appreciate your sense of urgency, your conclusion seems to be a nihilistic fantasy. Whether it was the best possible outcome or a bad outcome, for better or worse we now have 6 billion people and an economic system that produces more than enough food for them -- even though because of the terrible inequality built into our economic system, many people cannot afford the food that is available. We use our economic system to feed vast numbers of animals so that some humans can eat themselves into early death by eating too much meat. We use other parts of our farming system to produce useless gadgets and toys. But we have the "carrying capacity" to produce enough food for well over 12 billion people and have, through improvements in human welfare, discovered that we will never have a population over 9 billion. That means that we have averted a catastrophic fate and can build on that success.

In debates like this I always try to steer clear of emotive terms like "nihilistic fantasy". It verges on ad hominem, and distracts from the underlying facts of the debate. You disagree with my position, and that's entirely legitimate. But don't you think it would be better to let the facts and our interpretations of them speak for themselves?

"More than enough food" is true only in a very idealistic sense. In the real world we need to factor in such unpleasant things as economic competition for that food, the growing disparity between rich and poor, and the fact that most nations seem reluctant to give away any more than a pittance of their caloric wealth in the name of egalitarian justice. What is, is. That applies to regional disparities and our unwillingness to bridge them as well as to the bald technical fact that we produce 300 kg of grain per person.

The neo-Malthusian alternative offers us nothing. What do you propose if you believe your outcome is true? That several billion of us slit our throats on the unlikely possibility that we won't be able to feed everyone in the future? That we deliberately withhold food from the poor to starve them into balance with their alleged "carrying capacity" as one DU poster is fond of promoting?

Ah. Now that is a very good question. Here is my answer, as I posted it to another blog yesterday:

I've just come out of a two-year episode of despair brought on by realizing the inevitability of the decline of this cycle of human civilization. What brought me out was a spiritual (though empatically NOT religious) transformation that I describe briefly in "The Spiritual Effects of Comprehending the Global Crisis". Upon more reflection it turns out that the spiritual perception that I describe is more correctly and usefully understood as a conversion to Deep Ecology as defined by Arne Naess in 1972. I am convinced that such a "spiritual" realization is essential if one is to emerge from the inevitable despair and resume a functional life.

Now, what about hope? After all, the last thing in Pandora's Box was "Hope". Since we are staring deeply into that box right now, what new revelation might we take as a hopeful sign? The state of affairs right now seem utterly hopeless. Ecological devastation, oil depletion, population growth and socioeconomic instability are converging to give humanity the thrashing of its life, in the process reducing the human community to perhaps one billion members before the end of the century.

In fact there is a hopeful sign, but only if you change your perspective.

Start from these three realizations:
1. The genetic imperatives that drive our reproduction, consumption and competition guarantees that we will not change our civilization's value set voluntarily or preemptively.
2. Humanity is like yeast. We reproduce and consume until our ecological niche is stripped of resources and poisoned by waste, then we die off.
3. Humanity is like cockroaches. We are resourceful, adaptive and hardy, and you can't kill us all.

These three facts mean that some portion of humanity will survive to regroup and rebuild in a massively damaged, resource-poor world. On our way through the bottleneck we will lose much of our physical and social capital. The one good thing about this, from a species, biosphere and planetary perspective is that the existing socioeconomic structures will be forcibly and involuntarily stripped away, leaving room for new structures to take their place.

The question for me has become, "How do we ensure that the seeds are in place for a value set that will survive through and bloom after the bottleneck, a value set that will ensure that the next cycle of civilization has a chance at sustainability even in such a badly damaged, resource-poor world?"

I've become convinced over the last couple of months that the seeds have already been planted. They are even resilient enough to make it through, and carry the correct values.

Paul Hawken has just written a book called "Blessed Unrest" in which he describes a set of one to two million local, independent, citizen-run environmental and social justice groups. These groups exist world-wide, and each is acting on local problems of its own choosing. There is no overarching ideology beyond "making the world a better place", there is no unifying organization, no white male vertebrate leader setting the agenda. As a result the movement is extremely resilient - no government action anywhere can shut it down, even though individual groups may be suppressed. These groups make up the largest (though unrecognized) social movement the world has ever seen.

Hawken sees this movement as part of humanity's immune system. While I like the metaphor and think it is exactly correct, I believe the importance of these groups is much greater than just their efforts to mitigate an unavoidable collapse. These groups have been called into existence by the world's dis-ease, and do two things: they work to fix local problems now (which will mitigate some local effects of the collapse), but more importantly they act as carriers for the values of cooperation, consensus, nurturing, recognition of interdependence, acceptance of limits, universal justice and the respect for other life. Those are precisely the values that a civilization will need to achieve stability and sustainability. To top it all off, many of these groups are led by women or espouse specifically matriarchal values, one attribute I see as essential for any sustainable civilization.

At the risk of sounding sentimental, I call these groups the antibodies in Gaia's bloodstream.

I am convinced we will not save this civilization, but I'm equally convinced that thanks to the seeds that have already been planted in these groups we have a shot at a much better one in a couple of hundred years. The crucial change in perspective required to see the hope in this is to stop looking from here forward into the decline, and instead look backward from a position out two hundred years and imagine what it will take to rebuild a truly sustainable civilization from the ashes of this one. The values required are already embodied in a resilient organization, enough of whose elements will survive to transmit a sustainable value set into the ecologically damaged, resource-depleted world we will bequeath to the future.

I hope this has been useful. It may not sway you, because as I said above I think we're both well past that. However, there are many others out there seeking a better understanding of the malaise they sense in themselves and others. I'm trying to clarify that inchoate feeling of unease, and having your passionately held arguments to work with is very valuable for marshalling my own thoughts.

Thanks,

Paul Chefurka
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. It seems that throughout these discussions, there is one thing always missing.
And I apologize for not reading your above post. It's a novel in length.

The one thing that I seem to be almost alone on is the tolerability factor. Screw what the planet can or cannot sustain. This is independent of all of that. I am, and I have been for thirty years, DISGUSTED. When I was a kid I watched with a sinking heart, my beautiful town ruined. What was apricots is now a Staples or a 7-11. I think that people coming from shit places like New Jersey are the ones who saw Palo Alto and Los Altos, and were delighted to take a dump on them. Sorry if I offend people by saying that. Not! I spent most of my life in a state of distress and disgust over this. It's not something a counselor can help. It's external strife from real, tangible problems. I've carried the burden of losing the place I wanted to call home. There is an aesthetic factor. I think there are very few who really care or even see it. I see two categories. Those who find their world inside themselves, and those who seek outside. Those who place their little doilies on their armchairs, and those who walk into grand redwood forests. And for the later, life is a very sad place now. And it has a lot more to do with carrying capacity than most would like to admit. The aesthetic carrying capacity. I don't want to live in a concrete jungle.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. "Aesthetic carrying capacity" is a very evocative term
I know what you mean, and James Howard Kunstler even has a web page devoted to it: http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore.html

I think this sense of aesthetic grief afflicts more people than you know. I even feel it when I look into the night skies above my parents' farm, where the weight of the stars could crush me when I was a boy. Now all I can see is a few anemic points of light through a yellowish haze of sodium vapor light pollution from the city ten miles away.

The earliest environmentalists like Emerson and Thoreau were moved by the glories of nature. We saved the giant redwoods because their beauty outweighed their utility. Call it the "carrot" of environmentalism. Now we try to clean up the shit so we don't die. Call that the "stick"...

Don't worry about reading my overenthusiastic screed. You get it already anyway.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Oh how I wish we had...
Something. (Pardon me, I'm catching up on years of Doctor Who episodes I never saw but recently found. And i have a cable connection for a while. Yay.)

But really, I have spent a lifetime in solitude, with respect to this subject. Most people don't even see it. You wouldn't believe it, but I had almost the identical reply as the one you just made, but above from another person on this forum. A farm, sodium lights, sadness from loss. I find it quite amazing.

I wish we had a society. A place where we could all congregate. But what would it accomplish, I wonder. It wouldn't bring back the stars.

Never mind. I'll just be nostalgic while watching my episodes. But I'll tell you, I'm running out of time. I'm progressively losing my self, my health, my happiness. I used to own 200 acres surrounded by thousands. Not a light. Now I'm unable to find a stinking hut for under a million. Let alone a place of beauty. Never mind. Just thanks for the reply. It's good enough. It is like a candle in my darkness.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
68. I agree with the others, best post here. nt
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
58. Not a problem. Millions will die from global warming.
Nature makes nasty adjustments.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
63. Kick for a good debate
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
64. There is only one dependable cause of slowed population growth.
That cause is the middle class. In every economy, every nation, every society, the growth of the middle class is the only sure way to reduce the population growth.
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