On the topic of subtle bigots. Would you agree or disagree? Why?

[Maddy McCall]

How do you feel about this statement?

Sometimes racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and other forms of bigotry are so deeply ingrained in a person that that person is blinded to his or her own racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry. With people like this, it's impossible to have any kind of discussion about racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry, because the person truly cannot recognize such attributes in himself or herself.

Do you have any experiences to share, regarding the statement above?

[wildhorses]

1. well, you could have a conversation but, it would look like this

:banghead:

[Maddy McCall]

2. I know.

Especially when the person claims to be enlightened on the topics.

:-/

[Zucca]

3. Activists who preach about rights and cry bigotry....

Only to spit out vulgar hatred toward religion in general and or specific churches!

I got booted off the John Kerry forum for fighting the extreme left religiophobes that spit out hatred that bordered on Limbaugh from the left material.

To all you "Rights activists" who kept spitting out hatred and thinking America would pick you hatred over Dubya and companies hatred and bigotry...You lost! Thanks alot for dragging the more realistic and rational democrats with ya!

Is that a fair example?

[1620rock]

5. Might as well talk to the wall.

[The Straight Story]

8. Like with many arguments people take the easy way out - blame a whole group

for the actions of some and profess that you have won the argument.

On the other side of that though is what some call 'general understanding' - that you are talking about a large enough percentage of said group without being biased against the entire group (like bitching about rich people while applauding other rich people who share your general beliefs).

[blondeatlast]

26. I'm a Christian and I've been at DU for 4 years, maybe 5. You came here with an agenda

and I support my fellow DUers in insisting that you both chill out and back up your claims.

[hfojvt]

66. I believe he is talking about a forum at JohnKerry.com

not a DU forum. Otherwise, how do you get kicked out of a DU forum and still are able to post in GD?

[uppityperson]

82. Patience.

[mudesi]

4. Absolutely true

They're usually called "conservatives" around here. Conservatism in general requires an innate narcissistic stubbornness that perfectly harbors such ingrained bigotry.

[RufusTFirefly]

6. How about calling someone "articulate"?

... thinking you're paying a compliment, but strangely enough, reserving that compliment for non-Caucasians.

That comment always leaves me rather miffed. The implication is "Wow! S/he's not white, and yet s/he can still utter an intelligible sentence! Amazing!"

How often are white people described as "articulate"? Just askin'.

[treestar]

10. Couldn't they be?

Maybe they are. How do you know a person never says a white person is articulate?

It's weird, because you can actually do that.

Al Gore is articulate. I can say so. Michael Moore is articulate.

Hillary is articulate. So is Dennis Kucinich.

Now I'm a racist for leaving someone out, right?

[RufusTFirefly]

12. All of those people are articulate, but...

.. I rarely hear someone say that. It's almost as though it's a given. But if Obama (whom I do not support) says something eloquent, folks are falling all over themselves to say how "articulate" he is. Why?

[BlooInBloo]

16. There's little white folks enjoy more than pretending history never took place....

... and that there's absolutely no history involving black folks, white folks, and "articulate".

[Zucca]

21. OBAMA is by far one of the best speech makers around.

Gore does ok, but he can Bore you, Bush,,,LOL, I gotta tell you the only pol I can think of that i would rather see speak live would be Bill Clinton....Obama is way more articulate then most, and thats why they say it. Clinton was often described in such terms,,,no one even blinked. I think the PC police are a bit to rigid in their "veiled insult rules"

That being said, I think Obama needs 4 more years before he could get my vote. Perhaps in 2012 after this upcoming President (saddled with Dubyas mess) has horrible popularity ratings due to decisoions forced by the poor situation Bush left them...Obama rides in, re energizes the whole country and rolls to an easy victory. Sounds very plausible to me!

[treestar]

68. IA, and what bothers me is that any positive word could be taken that way

The basis for this is that one is accused of adding silently "for a black person." So could that apply to any positive word, like intelligent, ambitious, attractive, talented? Then you can't say anything good about any minority person, and then that's going to be turned around and called racist, too.

There's a self esteem issue there. I can understand that, even though white, I've had challenges with that, and that's how I recognize it.

[mzteris]

25. I use that word quite often

in conversation.

Of course I like to use a lot of words that some think are pretentious. My first husband told me at one point, "you're not really smart - you just know a lot of big words." :eyes:

[Indenturedebtor]

53. Yeah the articulate thing

I get a similar thing all the time with "Oh I never would have thought you were Jewish... you don't even look Jewish". Why? Didn't you notice the horns, stinginess, huge nose, and plots for world domination? My wife (who is half Chinese) always gets "But where are you really from?" As though to say that the only "real Muricans" are White, Black, or Hispanic.

I take most of these to be displays of genuine ignorance, mixed with "innocent" stereotyping (if there's a difference between the two).

Further depending on where you grow up, you either get the media stereotyping or the real deal. The media, aside from The Cosby Show, presents most of America with an image of Black people as rappers, criminals, and nearly mute atheletes. Jews are all Hassidic with huge curly affros, huge noses, and cheap thieving tendencies, with whiny neurotic new york accents. Asian Americans are all presented as fresh off the boat. So if you don't know any better or have not been around many people of these groups you would form an "experience" that didn't reflect reality very well.

On the coasts, and in most of the countries i've been to I haven't experienced so much idiocy as I have in the Midwest and Southwest. Ignorance is obnoxious. Even more obnoxious is when people state a racist belief as though it were accepted fact. I work in car sales, and I am constantly, daily, bombarded with racism and hatred; by both customers and my coworkers. The level of which is truly unbelievable if you haven't worked in a similar field, mixing with and befriending the general population. Most of us consciously or unconsciously surround ourselves with people of like interests and life trajectories. Until you have been daily forced to interact with dozens of people it is hard to truly grasp the scope of the bigotry in this country.

As a Jew I am afforded a special treat. People assume that all Jews are the same and easily identifiable so they share their hatred for me with me to my face.

The subtle stuff doesn't bother me as much. I deal with it by educating, vehemently and with examples. Don't be afraid you're going to offend someone. To hell with them... let them feel stupid, make them feel stupid for speaking without knowing or thinking. Most people will relent if you defeat their reasoning.

But I have had people tell me that I'm articulate, intelligent, etc before. I think that for the most part it is pretty normal, and no more offensive than when someone who knows I'm Jewish calls me generous or tells me I'm attractive.

[AngryAmish]

72. or clean

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. It can happen

Searching Google news for 'articulate' used about a named person:

New Head Mountie described as 'articulate' (yes, he's white)

Australian Labor party leader is 'articulate' (he's white, too)

British Tory is 'articulate' (white)

and then:

Obama is 'articulate' (Guess what - that's John Gibson on Fox News)

Maybe it's American media that's given up on the use of 'articulate' as a neutral compliment. :shrug:

[Redstone]

7. "Don't try to talk to hillbillies," is the message I take away from that.

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

19. No...I've encountered this with supposedly enlightened people.

People who toot their own horn about how liberal they are.

[Redstone]

20. Hey, there's your answer in just one word: "supposedly."

All right there.

Redstone

[shadowknows69]

75. me too

this can be any demographic really. Showing up a lot in the younger, college going, population for some reason. Baffles me.

[uppityperson]

83. I've said stupid unthoughtful things myself, been called and apologized

We all can do this, probably have done this. If someone does this, and recognizes and changes, it would be nice for the person calling them on it to also be able to accept the validity (if it is real) of the apology. (note the "if it is real" disclaimer).

Sometimes words are just words, sometimes they are meant as insults. Sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is meant, other times quite easy. Sometimes the speaker can go Bambi-eyed and say "oh, THAT's not what I meant" when they did. Sometimes they didn't, sometimes they did.

As far as the impossibility of having a discussion (quoting your OP)...
"Sometimes racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and other forms of bigotry are so deeply ingrained in a person that that person is blinded to his or her own racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry. With people like this, it's impossible to have any kind of discussion about racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry, because the person truly cannot recognize such attributes in himself or herself."

Sometimes this is true, sometimes the person cannot recognize this. Sometimes it is false, and, with discussing things, the person can see this and work with it. I think most people are prejudgemental to some degree, the trick is recognizing this and not letting your pre-judgements get in the way of dealing with an individual, or a group, as themselves, not as a pre-judged category.

Edited to add that I signed on DU as uppityperson and anonymous sex because I wanted to be just a person, not male/female/skin hue/ religion/ etc, but finally changed to show I am female (as those DUers meeting me know) since I was getting lots of remarks as to my masculinity. I wanted to be just a person, but decided I'd show my sex, seems to have taken some of the nastiness off of some posters replies, though it could be me mellowing out also.

[treestar]

9. How do you adjudge someone to be a "subtle bigot?"

The person who really thinks they aren't, or the person who says they aren't when they are?

I've had such conversations with people who I believe are racists or xenophobes and won't cop to it - in fact become very offended -

Take right wingers who are all for the free market until it comes to immigration - then suddenly they don't want the market to work, but to have the government step in and say who can and can't be hired. I have driven right wingers into silence on this one. They try to change the issue, but they cannot explain the inconsistency. If you hint that it is simply because they don't want to see brown people in their neighborhoods, they refuse to continue to discuss the matter at all, because you "played the race card."

Which apparently is a sin all by itself - I asked if it was ever proper or allowable or fair to play the race card - usually I get no further answer - they can't answer that one.

[Maddy McCall]

24. Well...

I'd say that the person who says they aren't usually thinks that they aren't. They never really come out and directly say things about people of other races (or genders, cultures, etc.), but they'll say something indirect. Then, when you want to talk about that indirect, subtle comment, they respond that they aren't racist, and indeed their progressive pedigree proves that.


You know--THAT kind of person.

[hfojvt]

67. what is an example of something indirect?

Is anybody really bias free? Is it okay, for examples, to say a blanket slur against 'hillbillies', or 'rednecks', or 'mouth breathers'?

Sometimes innocent remarks are interpreted as if they had subtle, hidden meanings. What is heard is not always the intent of the speaker.

Is bigotry something that is all or nothing? If a good hearted person gets charged with bigotry, does that make them a bigot, somebody who needs to wear a scarlet B? Or can they still be a decent person with some areas they need to work on, some blinders, some imperfections, some stereotypes and language habits which are not good but are also endemic to the culture? Most people are gonna want to avoid the first outcome.

[LearnedHand]

11. Mostly true statement, I think

I disagree with the part about a discussion being impossible, though. Difficult, maybe, but not impossible. Douglas Hofstadter (of Goedel, Escher, and Bach fame) wrote a wonderful essay a couple of decades ago about this. His essay, "Default Assumptions," I think, talked about this very issue -- that we hold some of these bigotries -- default assumptions -- without meaning to and without knowing it.

Here's an example of a default assumption -- NOT a bigotry, just an example of a belief I didn't know I held, but still a good example: When I left religion behind, I examined and ultimately discarded every belief I held about religion. I didn't consider myself an atheist, though, because I feel as if I can NEVER know whether god exists or not.

Then, I read Karen Armstrong's "A History of God," in which she traces the development of the IDEA of a monotheistic god in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. When I read that, I realized that although I had discarded the Christian notion of god, it had NEVER occurred to me to question whether there was or was not ONE god or MANY gods. I.e., the notion of god/no god was SO DEEPLY INGRAINED in my belief structure that it never occurred to me to question whether there might be MORE than one god.

Whew. Long wait in line for a short ride, but the point is that I know it's possible to hold such beliefs or bigotries without knowing it. I've wondered about bigotries in myself after realizing the above.

[Toasterlad]

13. My Aunt Was a Good Example.

During my junior year of high school, I was the only white kid in an all-black school of about 300. My aunt pulled me aside before my first day and told me, "If you come home with a black girl, you won't have an aunt anymore." But the woman swore up and down she was not racist, saying that she just believed that "birds of a feather flock together." I guess she preferred that to "separate but equal."

Needless to say, I never told her I was gay. :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

30. LOL.

I can see WHY you never told her. :D :hug:

[TahitiNut]

14. See my sig!

:shrug: Fewer words ... more to the point.

[BlooInBloo]

15. "Sometimes"? LOL!

[Time for change]

17. I agree with you that that is often true

It is very common for people to be blind to their own faults, and even project their faults onto other people. It's like George Bush talking about an "axis of evil".

Still, I like to believe that sometimes these people are open to discussion about their bigotry. I'm sure that it occasionally happens, but I have no personal experience with it.

No, wait. I did have one interesting exchange on this not too long ago, that I posted about:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=640306

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Multiple of experiences.

Usually, they consider themselves "liberals" or "progressives," at least on-line. When I was working, I got more of a mixed bag. Those left of center seem to think themselves immune to bigotry; whereas, those on the right will disagree they are bigots but it isn't because of their stances, but rather an aversion to the word. Also, those right of center seem to think things like racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry are just figments of the liberals' imaginations and therefore, cannot be guilty of something that doesn't exist. :shrug:

Your post spoke of subtle bigotry, personally, I have seen a multitude of people that use subtle bigotry and when it is pointed out, really are mystified. Some can be taught, others, well...they'll never change.

[jpgray]

22. Well, we all have stereotypes based on our cultural upbringing

We have our ideas about how certain groups behave based on experience, and those stereotypes are used as shortcuts to understanding an individual. We all shunt the individual into what we know of the group (be it men, women, whatever) to sort of get a handle on what to expect or what to think before we actually know the individual. All people behave this way. We don't behave this way with individuals in our own "group," because we identify easily with those individuals. It's part of the reason most immediate defenders of the alleged victim of the Duke rape case were women, and the skeptics seeing things from the side of the accused were mostly men. It's how we behave, to an extent, and it's very difficult to combat without constant vigilance.

The subtle trouble comes in when that cultural upbringing is waaay out of date or from a different society, because people can post extremely bigoted things without having any idea of how they are bigoted. Take someone who is really old. When their cultural experience was formed, "coloreds" was the -polite- term for blacks. "Articulate" or "exotic" -is- a compliment, to them. That's why an oldster may say such without intending to be racist. For someone whose cultural programming has received the necessary critical updates (:P), this is totally unacceptable. We should all try to move beyond simply identifying with our own group and taking shortcuts to judge others, but it's really difficult, and some people just don't realize they aren't capable of doing it to current society standards.

[Maddy McCall]

27. Excellent post.

Thanks for this. It helps explain what I've found so perplexing recently.

[BlooInBloo]

36. ROFLMAO!!! It's not that they're racist...

... it's that they:

(a) are waaay out of date
(b) are from a different society
(c) have no idea
(d) are really old
(e) are being complimentary
(f) are not intending to be racist
(g) have not received updates to their cultural programming
(h) are just identifying with their own group
(i) are taking shortcuts
(j) just don't realize.

:rofl:

With a list of excuses this long, it's amazing that *anyone* can be classified as racist. Oh wait...

[Maddy McCall]

39. I think that you're wrong in characterizing his post that way.

Did you see where he said: "...this is totally unacceptable..."

[jpgray]

40. Better read it again! Of course they're being racist. They just have no idea they are being racist

That doesn't matter. A Jainist should know better than to walk down the Upper West Side with a swastika t-shirt and expect his symbol of luck and sunshine to be taken well. :D So too should people who are culturally backward--despite not having the intent of being racist, they need to recognize that in our culture, those old chestnuts that were fine in '53 -are- racist today.

[BlooInBloo]

45. Not knowing. The #1 excuse offered up. I can't believe I didn't mention it. Sheesh.

The ENTIRE point of "not knowing" is that it be mitigating factor, if not completely exculpatory. The sole use of it is for white folks to be able to say "I'm not racist, I just didn't know".

The beauty of it is that it's impossible, typically, to PROVE otherwise. Thus, its #1 ranking.

[jpgray]

47. An old guy who says "coloreds" and a Stormfront skinhead are equal to you?

We'll have to agree to disagree. Both are racist, but there can exist mitigating factors.

[BlooInBloo]

49. The prior is worse, long term, because he gets white folks' sympathy...

... thus permitting the abomination to continue. Which is the whole point, I suppose.



EDIT: Conclusion added for those to whom it wasn't obvious.

[jpgray]

52. That's ridiculous. Do you get up in arms about "white people can't dance" jokes from black comics?

There's racism that everyone laughs at. The tragedy! :rofl:

There are absolutely different sorts of bigotry. To call a senile old man whose social etiquette skills are derived from the 50's -worse- than people like the assholes who killed Matthew Shepard is kind of bizarre.

[BlooInBloo]

54. Fuck me! I TOTALLY forgot about that one! "Black folks do it too!". I'm off tonite - sorry.

[jpgray]

55. You're doing it right now, I'd wager. What race do you think I am?

What gender? You've used your accumulated stereotypes to define me already. Don't even pretend you haven't. Shall we give you the chair? Perhaps the gas chamber. :D

[BlooInBloo]

58. Why would I have any idea what race/gender you are?

[jpgray]

60. I -knew- you would pretend you hadn't made that judgment. But I'd bet you have

You kept telling me I was excusing racism, despite every post of mine containing a condemnation of the behavior as inexcusable. You didn't read what I said, your stereotypes of what you doubtless see as "that kind of argument" just spat out a generalized version of my views, to which you responded, assuming my argument would just fit in with those others. You are rather entertainingly guilty of exactly what you claim to despise. Isn't that neat?

:D

[BlooInBloo]

62. (shrug) It's your money, but the question didn't even occur to me until you asked.

[jpgray]

63. Of course not. :D That's why you claimed I was excusing racism, despite the fact I never did

Your cute little list upthread, "excuses" for racism--what do they have to do with my post? Nothing. You glanced at my argument, said to yourself "I've seen this type of stuff before!" and threw up some stock responses to your stereotype instead of responding to me. That's why you posted "I forgot the #1 excuse!" later, as if it proved I slotted snugly into your perfect little stereotype. You did this all while I had said nothing of the sort. Your listing of "shortcut" syndrome as an -excuse- for bigotry when I mentioned it as a -cause- is further evidence.

You reacted to the stereotype as a shortcut for reacting to the actual individual--it's exactly the mechanism for bigotry you claim to be above. In this case, we're lucky it was just a silly argument. Now does this make you worse than a Stormfront skinhead? :D

[Maddy McCall]

57. Question: Why are you posting in this thread?

Really. What's your reason for posting in this thread? So far, you've only contentiously ridiculed other people's ideas, and you've yet to state your own.

You even ridiculed my OP for using "sometimes" in my statement in the OP.

It would be informative to other people who have participated in this thread if you'd respond to the OP before launching into someone else's posts. It's easy to critique what other people say, but it's lazy to do so when you've not so much as thought out a response to the OP.

[BlooInBloo]

59. Because I agreed with you. Too much, apparently - LOL!

[Maddy McCall]

61. No problem, whether you agree or disagree.

I hadn't seen you state that you agree.

I just wish that you'd respond with your own ideas and experiences instead of finding fault with others who took the time to post their ideas.

It takes a lot to construct a response and open it up for debate. It's a lot easier to just enter a thread to ridicule others' thoughts.

[treestar]

69. So true! I cannot believe some of this thread.

Talk about black and white thinking, sheesh.

If we liberals are to be painted with the same brush as those assholes, it is indeed hopeless for minorities and I feel so sorry for them. But then again, I'm a racist, so that doesn't count.

[Truthiness Inspector]

23. I agree

The biggest giveaway is stuff like an enthusiastic, "I have a friend who is black but he is really smart/well-educated etc."

It just slips out.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Oh, I've heard that a million times.

Or, "We are so lucky to have Joe living in our neighborhood. He never has barbecues, loud music, and you hardly know he's there."

:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Good example.

I get, "funny you don't look Jewish." My partner gets "you don't seem gay" (let me attest, he is plenty gay!!!). We have a crack house next to us and when I complain about it to others, they automatically assume the crack-dealers/users are black (they ain't!). I also get "you're pretty smart for a Southerner." :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

34. Oh yeah.

"Pretty smart for a southerner."

:rofl:

And you get that from liberals! :)

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Yup! Sorry I didn't respond quicker...

...I was out in the outhouse, then I saw a cute cousin across the fence in a yard-full of walking birds, just like the kind my daddy hunted with his smell hounds. :)

[BlooInBloo]

37. It's not a slip.

[hyphenate]

29. I don't know

Can't we, as human beings, have some small amount of weakness, and find ourselves hating someone or something because of a subjective event?

Personally, I find myself hating the religious right, and I make no bones about it, because I have seen firsthand the damage that can be rendered under the context of "religion" and belief systems. Whether it's okay to "hate" a whole group like that or not, and paint a broad brush of antagonism toward them is not something I might feel on an intellectual basis--in fact, if I look at it from that perspective, I know it's not exactly rational. But on a visceral level, it's all I can do sometimes to keep from telling someone to go fuck themselves when they begin to tear apart those of other religions, other gender preferences or other such groups to which they object to on the basis that the "bible tells them to."

I have always felt that hating some such group on pure principle is wrong, but I've seen so much shit over the years that I find it hard not to condemn the lot of them on the behavior of the ones I've known.

On the other hand, I've seen members of my own family making comments about some people on such a basis, and it's difficult to try and tell them any differently, because after awhile, those intolerances become ingrained and it's harder to shake people out of their little bubble. I can't begin to tell others differently when I show some semblance of intolerance myself, especially when the reasons for hating become blurred in the reasoning.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Definitely! Here are two examples:

I don't know how many times I've heard the statement, "I'm not prejudiced; I'm just not afraid to tell the truth."

But one of the best examples of unconscious bigotry I ever saw was after Condoleezza Rice addressed the 2000?/2004? Republican Convention.

A reporter asked two country club-type women what they thought of the speech, and one of them gushed, "That Condoleezza Rice is so well-dressed and articulate."

The assumption underlying that statement, of course, is that African-Americans are normally slovenly and unable to put two coherent words together. That Republican woman would never have commented that Kay Bailey Hutchinson or some other white Republican woman was "well-dressed and articulate."

Another common example is when Asian-Americans are complimented for speaking English so well, even if their families have been in the United States for several generations.

At one college where I taught, I was on the search committee for a new professor of Asian history. We interviewed one candidate, a woman from China, and sad to say, her English was so poor that even I, who am pretty good at understanding people with strong accents, found her difficult to understand.

The next candidate was a Chinese-American man, whose cv clearly stated that he had been born in Washington, D.C. After he gave his demonstration lecture, one of the other members of the search committee turned to me and said, "His English is a lot better than Ms. Li's." Well, duh, he was born in the U.S. and received his entire education through Ph. D. level here. These facts were written out on his application. Why wouldn't he speak English? Oh, yes, his face...

[DemGa]

32. I'd say yes, and call it poor insight

A person with very poor insight would not be able to readily examine his/her beliefs. People like this certainly exist.

[karlrschneider]

38. The first sentence is completely true. The second isn't.

Bigotry is learned, and can be (with difficulty) unlearned. Been there, done that.

[Maddy McCall]

41. But part of the unlearning is...

facing the fact that bigotry exists in one's self.

If the person won't admit that it's there, then how are they to start the process of unlearning it?

(Am I watching too much Dr. Phil? :hi: )

[karlrschneider]

48. Oh, absolutely! I was raised in a very bigoted family...to my shame, I often

called certain people niggers and kikes, to name a couple. My late father who was an admirer of Hitler had conniptions when I made friends with black and Jewish kids. Hell, they were just other kids, and I couldn't figure out what all the fuss was about! I didn't admit my own inculcated bigotry until I got into college, even! It's not easy to overcome a childhood of indoctrination and devotion to a parent. But I think you know that. (I don't know much about Dr. Phil) :D

[Maddy McCall]

50. I think that college was "the moment" for me, too, karl.

Living in the deep south, born in the turbulent sixties...yeah, it takes a lot to cut the ties that bind you to your community's thoughtways.

Strangely, though, some of the most disgusting forms of racism I've ever encountered have been among supposed intellectuals.

[karlrschneider]

56. There were a lot of intellectual Nazis. My dad was a highly respected

geologist & engineer and he was a racist bigot. I'm grateful to whatever force allowed me to escape that mindset.
But in all honesty, maybe I still harbor some prejudice because I'm an avowed opponent of organized religion.
I really do try to be objective, though.

[MedleyMisty]

42. I totally agree.

I spend a lot of time thinking about prejudice and found the holy grail at the book store a few weeks ago - a book titled The Nature of Prejudice.

Some people on the more extreme end are quite open about it. Others who may feel a twinge of guilt come up with all sorts of rationalizations, like the famous "I've got a black friend, but..." And of course, "Can't you take a joke?"

It's part of their personality, how they were raised, how they deal with the world. People who grow up in authoritarian homes learn to see society as a power structure and are much more likely to be prejudiced than people with cool laid-back parents.

I found it very interesting that a survey found that mothers of prejudiced kids were more likely to punish them for masturbating. Connect that to the bit in Black Like Me where the author says that all the white men who picked him up (he was hitching) were quite interested in the sex lives of African Americans and to the general sexual obsessions of conservatives. Hmm.

I think that some people are teachable. Others aren't, and all you can do is try to overcome their influence and teach their kids empathy and tolerance at school or daycare or whatever. And of course try to make sure that they don't have the power to enforce their prejudiced views through legislation or any other part of public life.

Also, the book says that a major source of prejudice is frustration. Economic justice and fairness would do a lot for lessening prejudice, I think. And of course justice and fairness in general and an actual democracy where the people actually have some power, as opposed to rule by corporations.

[Nevernose]

43. There ARE different kinds of bigotry.

There's the bigot who's proud of it.
There's the bigot who's smart enough to keep his mouth shut unless she's in a perceived "safe" company.
There's the bigot who doesn't even know he's a bigot.

One can have a conversation with all of these people. With time, and as society's values change and are reflected, people can move down the list presented. For instance, in the 80s I had a friend who hated "niggers." In the 90s he started listening to hiphop, and said that, "niggers are fit to entertain." Today he's dating a black chick. Times change, people do, too.

And soemtimes we have to help them along.

[foxsux]

65. Agreed.

[Cleita]

44. Somebody said this? Or is it a compilation of things that have been said?

I've have actually had some pretty productive conservations with people whose racism was superficial. mostly repeating what they have heard or been raised with, without thinking about it a lot. However, there are those that the racism was so entrenched you couldn't argue with them without the barrel of your gun facing theirs. Personally, I can't be bothered with the latter.

[Dhalgren]

46. Back when I was in the Army (1974)(!) I knew this guy who was one of the most

intelligent, well read, people (of my own age) I had ever met. We were both very big-headed about our "superior" intelligence and made stupid fun of others we knew who were so much less than us mentally (I have changed, at least some). He was going to be a doctor when he got out of the Army and I have no doubt that he made an excellent one. But when we happened to come into the company of his black friends (he was black), he would change his manner of speech and his subject matter. He would assume a persona that made him appear inarticulate and ill-educated. I asked him about this. He told me that I could never understand who he was and how his life had evolved - what he had gone through and what he was going through. He said that just as he would never understand a drugged-out hillbilly from North Alabama who read Nietzsche and the poetry of Mao tse Tung and who was good friends with a black guy, I could never understand him, who had to maintain a connection with people he could trust. We got shipped-out to different places and I lost track of him, but he made me understand that we are all races of one, we join, or acquiesce to, one or another group for our own reasons and we deal with others as members of groups because it is just easier. To whatever extent any of us treat anyone as a group member and not as an individual (and if we treat ourselves the same way), we are bigoted to that extent. Some persons' bigotry is egregious, others' are benign, but we share a taint of it, if for no other reason than laziness. Just an observation...

[mzteris]

51. I took a Sociology class

in 2001 on Race, Class, and Gender.

I THOUGHT I had shed so much of my upbringing before that class. I truly believed I had overcome so many of the prejudices that were ingrained in me. I was PROUD of that fact. That I had come so far from what my parents, my grandparents, believed.

I did readily admit - and still do - that SOMETIMES - the first thought that pops into my head is the one that I was raised with - it's less often now (Smacking yourself really really hard upside the head when you think those bad things helps, btw. lol)

I had to write a weekly one page informal paper on my thoughts/feelings somewhat related to whatever we were discussing/reading in class. I grew - a lot - in those musings. I began to truly come to grips with some of the garbage that I thought I'd eradicated, but was still haunting me. Still shadowing my every action. Coloring my every thought.

I began to feel just a bit smug about what great strides I was making.

Then I gook a class on Black Popular Culture. Led by an ex Black Panther activist type professor. I was one of only two white people in the class. And the oldest person in the room except for the professor.

Smack.

bell hooks.

Double smack.

Jon Entine.

smack. smack. smack.

Conversations with kids and the prof. Bigotry towards me. Hatred. Resentment. I couldn't understand THAT. I tried to keep quiet. I tried to just listen. But SO MUCH of what they were SAYING just DIDN"T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME!

How could it? one young man said to me. You are not and never will be black. You will never know KNOW what it is like to live the life. To live with the prejudices.

I tried to counter by saying I was a woman - and a women who'd gone through "women's lib" - who'd been harassed and abused and underpaid and under employed.

Many became angry because I was asking questions they thought were OBVIOUS. The professor and I were in a shouting match because I said "I NEED to know! I NEED to understand! How can it ever change if I - if people like ME - can't UNDERSTAND?"


Of course the day my 4 year old son wandered into the classroom (long story - unrelated) a lot of dynamics changed. Everyone was wondering whose cute little boy that was. There were audible gasps when he climbed into my lap.




Some of the people who resented my being there accepted and welcomed me from then on. Some of those who'd been OK with my being there, were suddenly very very hostile.

We all have our prejudices. Whether we're aware of them or not. Whether we believe we have them or not. They're there. To say you're NOT PREJUDICED in any way shape or form is a lie.

It's knowing and working on it and denying it a foothold in your day-to-day dealings that is the key. It working so very hard to keep it from ever gaining any power over our kids. Hopefully, some day - people can just be - People. To acknowledge and allow and embrace the differences. To not insist on some homogenization. But not to ostracize because "you're different".

To stop seeing and judging others based on the view of them through your own rose/blue/green/brown/purple colored glasses.




I saw a tshirt today: You're only as Liberal as your Prejudices allow you to be.

[foxsux]

64. It takes patience.

It takes a lot of conversations and patience to make a person realize they might be wrong. I think we've all experience that problem with others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. well i am bisexual and almost everyone is bigoted toward bisexuals

and almost everyone has a 'justification' for their bigotry, including gay people. justifications include : you cannot be trusted, i wouldnt date a bi because i just cant give them what they want, if i bi person dated me and then cheated on me i would be devastated (as though straights and gays do not cheat), you are still in the closet about your 'true' sexuality.

also i am indian. do you know how annoying it is when everyone says i look exotic? i am not a bird.

or people decry the child-raising ability of my subcontinent because its different from the western way.

and ofcourse i am a woman, and society is full of subtle sexism.

[bemildred]

71. In my experience, if bigotry is "subtle", it's not worth worrying about.

And you won't get far calling them out when you think you see it. It's the "obvious" bigotry we need to spend our time on.

We all have our cultural chains to try to remove, and we all have more or less success in that over the course of our lifetime.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. i disagree with you, subtle bigotry effects people just as much.

denying gay people the right to marry is for instance, societies subtle bigotry. its not that most people who dont care about gay marriage is going around beating up gay people but they are condoning treating a whole group of people as less than others.

[bemildred]

76. You are torturing the meaning of "subtle".

There is nothing "subtle" about legal prohibitions of any sort. Subtle means "not obvious", which is not the same thing as "most people think it's OK" or "most people refuse to think about it at all". People can stare right at things that are perfectly obvious and not see them at all. They do it all the time. Just ask any bum on the street.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. most people think that gays should settle for civil unions because whats in a word

that sort of thing is subtle.

[bemildred]

78. It's not subtle, it's just a common attitude.

Like "separate but equal" used to be. Calling people bigots won't change their minds, civil argument about the obvious inequality of the situation might.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. well i think the underlying problem is subtle bigotry

most people who are well educated, mostly liberals dont like to think of themselves as prejudiced. yet they are raised in a fairly homophobic society. even if they grow up and get rid of some of their prejudice, they hold on to some. hence saying things like whats in a word, doesnt strike them as prejudiced.

however as a queer person it strikes me as prejudiced and bigoted. just not overtly.

[bemildred]

81. OK. nt

[shadowknows69]

74. Experience it all the time

Deep rampant xenophobia in some up here. I suspect it is prevalent in many smaller industrial towns who have basically become bigger military towns. In 1950 there were probably ten blacks in this whole area. Now there's 10,000. Some people, and sadly their children my age, can't stop resisting change or looking for someone to blame it on. You basically get the comments and vibes like

"I have black/mexican/gay friends" but there are b/m/g's and then there are niggers/wetbacks/and faggots" which are the most vile to me. I finally snapped on two of these guys in my cab recently too.

I suspect it was the diversity, not really racial but no less cultural of my adolescent friends that kept most of us from getting this infection of the spirit. Intriguing theory though. Can all bigots be blamed for being bigots? Can they ever learn not to be?