How does cutting off our left arm in the struggle for true democracy help?

[ConsAreLiars]

Assuming that most here on DU understand that the "us" versus "them" that matters most is "we the people" versus "Corporate Rule," I'm confused by the bashing of "lefties," most recently Moore and Sheehan. How does discrediting them help our cause? Or is it just that some here have a different view of what is at stake and the nature of the political battles we are engaged in?

I'm not particularly interested in hearing people's views of Moore or Sheehan or any other "famous" person in particular, but more in understanding how people see the political terrain we face. Or maybe you have a different analysis of how to define our goals as common human beings seeking a better world for the future. How do those goals, or that analysis, lead you to attack people like them, and how does discrediting people like them strengthen our side?

I grew up learning the core meaning of slogans like "Same Struggle, Same Fight" and "The People United Will Never Be Defeated." I put in my most productive years working with a wide range of people holding a wide range of generally progressive outlooks, even though those different ideologies were often painted broadly as antagonistic to one another, so I just don't get it.

We stood in common for peace and justice, and worked in common toward contributing to those goals, and the differences about whose world views might be closest to the ultimate truth were really irrelevant. Starting fights about such matters of "faith" and trying to drive away others working for the same goals were easily seen as destructive. But, to be fair, this was something I learned through activism, not in debates.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Unfortunately, even liberalism has its fundamentalist branches.

Rather a few of them, sadly; people who feel that unless you're "pure", you are an obstacle to the "one true cause".

And so we get shit like "You can't march in the gay parade because you are pro gun" or "You have no right to talk about women's right as long as you continue to eat meat" or "Please shut up about the environment because you were in a fraternity".

It's too bad - we'd be a lot stronger if we could learn from the rightwingers about how to put differences aside and work for the greater good (or, in their case, the greater evil) and be more of a team, and less a loosely federated assemblage of individuals.

[whistle]

2. I have not bashed either of these people, but I take liberties about bashing

...our elected democrats who promised action against the rethuglicons and have not delivered. I like to think of my efforts as weak as they may be to be a wake-up call to our democratic leaders, but so far they slumber on. So, as a democrat and in the long tradition of vocal democratic members who scream and bash in order to be heard, I think I have that right. We have a dangerous foe in these true believer rethugs and neocons and we may not win against them in November 2008. So sue me!

[MadMaddie]

What you say is true..

You are right about the bashing of Cindy, Michael Moore, Melissa Etheridge, Rosie, The Dixie Chicks and others....


But the role the media has played has changed the game if you will. Fortunately, people are turning off the TV and reading and finding other alternatives to the MSM.


Folks you do remember that Martin Luther King was a preacher from the South right? Some of the greatest activist in the 60's were musicians....

You have allowed the MSM to bend your mind to discredit anyone in the ARTS, Music, Movies....these people are not stupid as MSM would allow you to believe....the MSM attacks them because they are trying to discredit them....

WE are all on the same side....wake up....the Republiks know this and they introduce more devisive shit into the air than a toxic fart....

What's the saying...United we stand...Divided we fall?

[ConsAreLiars]

11. Exactly.

I have never agreed 100% with anyone, but I never had the naiveté to think that my knowledge and understanding was PERFECTION incarnate. One of the most admirable people I knew personally was a CP organizer (named son after him), another a devoutly religious Christian (or maybe Jew - who cared?), another an Emma Goldman anarchist, another an antiwar vet, another a Vietnamese Buddhist (or maybe Catholic - it wasn't relevant), and for 90% of the people I respected and worked with we didn't even talk about what underlying beliefs led us to side with peace and for justice and against war and racism and poverty and other forms of injustice. It was enough to decide what we might do next to advance our common cause.

We were on the same side, and we did whatever we could, and we all, so it seemed, understood that the war had to be waged on as many fronts as possible, using the full range of tactics we could muster, pushing for human justice in every form the human imagination might create. There were, of course, a few voices urging us to attack one another for being imperfect, and some back room squabbling and sectarian positioning, but the common understanding was that more voices and allies are better than fewer.

[LordJFT]

3. I haven't seen anyone bashing Moore but isn't it obvious with Sheehan?

She's said meaner stuff about the democratic party than the republican party. And she obviously has a very warped view of history. And when we separate ourselves from lunatics like her it makes it harder for conservatives to lump people like her with reason-minded progressives.

[Webster Green]

6. We hold the Democrats to a higher standard than hopeless repukes..

Hold the dems feet to the fire. Demand that they attack these fascists and don't let up.

One man's lunatic is another's patriot, I guess.

Go Cindy!

[BuyingThyme]

22. So, it's the "reason-minded" who call people "lunatics" when they stand up for the right thing?

Then to hell with "reason-mined" people.

[brentspeak]

4. Who here's been criticizing Michael Moore?

I sure haven't seen it.

[scarletwoman]

5. I have no answer, all I can say is that as long as I've been on DU (since late 2001)

"leftie" bashing has been a continuing popular sport.

It seems to me that they "hate us for our freedom".

sw

[Psephos]

7. Suppressing criticism is a virtual guarantee of corruption

In your post you talk passionately about us vs. them, the people vs. the corporatists, and other schisms.

Then you go on to talk about our goals as human beings seeking a better world for the future...a goal that can only be reached through unity, not divisiveness. I do not see a better world where we fully intend to disenfranchise everyone we don't consider part of "us." Instead, I see endless trouble there.

I respect your dedication, but do you see how this corrosive need to slice the world into us and them never stops? We cut ourselves away from repugs, then cut that fraction into progressives vs. DLC, then into purists vs. practicals, then...etc...etc.

If being part of the progressive "struggle" means we must suppress open discussion and criticism of those the self-appointed purists deem off-limits, then I want no part of that struggle. A movement based on manipulated "truth" is mind slavery.

There is no value more liberal than the respect of free and open thought.

No offense whatsoever to you, CAL. These are my opinions, nothing more or less.

[ConsAreLiars]

12. I should maybe have phrased it as "us" against "it."

There are a few humans (very few) who are wholly owned and operated by the Corporate Machine, including mainly amoral psychopaths, who deserve the "them" designation, but it is the machine that is the enemy, not any group of people other than those whose loyalty is to that machine is greater than their desire to serve the common good.

You are right to take me to task for that ambiguity. We are indeed all in this together, and the monster we face is not human in any sense of that word. It exists only to devour and destroy.

[Psephos]

18. Well said and aptly perceived n/t

[WillyT]

8. It Doesn't... It Just Makes Us Swim In Circles...

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

9. You're right. But how does it help for Cindy to bash people like Conyers?

Why not save her attacks for the real enemy?

[ConsAreLiars]

13. As I see it, she is demanding that Dems do more to fight the real enemy.

Not a bad thing, maybe hoping too much, but pushing them to move less slowly in the same direction they are, in the best case, already moving. You apparently see it differently. But regardless of whether you think her approach is ideal, or less than ideal, there is no question that she is on the side of the people of the US and the people of Iraq, and against mass murder for profit. That puts her on the side of the people and against the war profiteers and corporate imperialism. Ask yourself which side you take when you repeat the thought pattern that tries to paint her as an enemy.

That is why I want people to worry a bit less about the differences in outlooks and tactics on our side, the side of humans, and remember that the war/murder/profit machine is the real enemy. Do what you can, let/encourage others to fight in whatever way they think is best, because we need to fight together, but not identically, in every way we can, if we are to have any chance at all. Strength comes through our diversity of talents and views, not by imposing some single set of rules (i.e. don't criticize Dems, even true heroes like Conyers) and bashing those of us who act outside of those purist constraints.

[pnwmom]

15. She's a Dem, or she was. She can do more HERSELF to fight the real enemy.

[ConsAreLiars]

19. I was asking about what greater good you see as being served, and how,

by attacks like yours on on people like Sheehan. Do you think that that sort of criticism helps us in some fashion? What is the goal? We all have different views, I suspect, on how we can best contribute, and act according to our beliefs. But the bashing part, I don't understand what that is supposed to accomplish. I

[pnwmom]

23. But you're not getting that she's doing the exact same thing that

you're accusing us of. She's concentrating her attacks on Democrats, rather than Republicans, and because of that she's beginning to get a reaction back.

I was completely on her side until she began spouting things like calling the Dems the "party of slavery." Does more than 50 years of being the party of civil rights count for nothing? Why does she have to sound like Ann Coulter?

[ConsAreLiars]

28. It was a question.

Not about what your opinion of her is, but why you devote time to trashing her. You surely don't require that everyone trying to promote positive change use only your words and methods? How does trashing her help our common causes?

[pnwmom]

33. She's devoting time to trashing the Dems as a party. I'm devoting time

to defending the party against her extremely divisive allegations. I'm not trashing her, I'm defending the party.

[BlooInBloo]

10. (a) Sheehan cut herself off. From the party of slavery, dontchaknow...

... and (b) She is more like a "left fingernail cell" than an arm. We'll survive.

[pnwmom]

16. I think that "party of slavery" Rethug meme was the final straw for me.

I will always feel for her loss of a child, and I was in full support of her stand in Crawford.

But she seems to be cracking lately.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Yup.

[ConsAreLiars]

20. I wasn't asking for more bashing.

I was asking how you think that kind of trash talk makes us more likely to be effective as a movement for peace and justice, assuming you consider yourself to be a part of that broad social trend. I understand why those serving corporate power would denigrate her, and Moore, and so on. But how are "we" helped by promoting the kind of viewpoints you express.

[pnwmom]

24. "We" are defending ourselves from her attacks. Why does it serve

our interests to let her claims -- Democrats being the war party, the party of slavery, etc. -- go unanswered?

[BlooInBloo]

25. I don't think the OP realizes the things Sheehan said.

[philosophie_en_rose]

26. Pointing out her words is not "denigrating her." She does that to herself.

Glossing over her silliness about taxation and slavery is hardly liberal. No one should expect blind loyalty and you're mistaken if you think Cindy Sheehan burning her bridges with Democrats is harmful for Democrats.

[hfojvt]

27. Who started the bashing?

One time when Spiderman was fighting Doctor Octopus, he put chemicals in his webbing. The chemcials caused Doc. Oct's arms to go crazy. Those arms started attacking the Doc himself. Thus Spiderman defeated him again. Of course, Captain Stacy ended up getting killed, but that's another story. My point is that if the left arm starts trying to gouge out the right eye, then it needs to be restrained, or cut off to prevent further damage to the body.

[LittleClarkie]

32. A criticism and a bash are two different things

I hate to see them lumped.

[pnwmom]

38. Very true. n/t

[Writer]

14. That's a good point.

Many people would rather die than lose their left arm. ;)

[KharmaTrain]

21. Moore Was Being Trashed?

On DU? I musta missed that one.

I think our diversity and our passions bring different views on similar issues. DU is young and old, men and women, gay and straight, black, hispanic, native American and many other groups. It's wealthy and poor and it's, above all, instant and wide reaching. It is instant contact with many different people and an alternative view that sometimes can be misleading or misunderstood.

Much of what I see here is of frustration...years of being shit upon by this regime, Repugnicans, the corporate media...and yes, Democrats, that looks for a quick fix or a symbol or a "stance" to make a stand, even if its symbolic and wastes valuable time and resources. It's an impatience for change that has been energized by this electronic world we live with...where the outrages pile up daily and the frustrations run deeper.

Many forget how deeply the Democratic party dug itself into a hole...or was pushed there...by this regime and its coporate enablers. A year ago, Gym Teach Denny still ran the House and chances of Democrats coming close to a majority in the Senate were considered "impossible". We couldn't even get a floor vote in the House on any Democratic motion. Look at where we are now.

We're on a long road from the wilderness and it is sure to be slow and full of landmines. But I'm determined, as I hope others here are, that all the crimes and criminals who turned this country into a cesspool will be brought to justice...be it in 6 months, a year, 5 years or longer.

Most of us stand on the same side on a vast majority of the issues...it's the tactic to enact real change that some of us differ on and I appreciate those who view differences in that light. I've learned and grown that way.

:toast:

[ConsAreLiars]

29. Yeah, the same sorts of things.

Not so much recently. Too left, makes us look bad, criticizes some Dems and their policies, not a party loyalist, plus some specific to him, a propagandist not a documentary maker, fudges facts and misleads people, doesn't give both sides, too fat, should wear a suit and tie on TV, etc. There was a pretty loud but small minority dumping on him after F911, much like now with Sheehan.

[KharmaTrain]

31. He Caught Shit For Supporting Nader...

In the "Who Lost 2000" post-mortum, some did blame Moore for supporting Nader thus losing Florida...i'm sure you know the rest on this. Moore, in my book, made ammends in '04 when he and Mahrer went on to actually beg Nader not to run again.

I don't see the parallel between Moore's support for Nader and Sheehan attempting to unseat the Speaker of the House, but nuance is always ellusive on DU.

[ConsAreLiars]

34. My question was not about these two individuals in particular.

It was about how people see building a successful people's movement, and how the trashing serves that purpose. I've seen no answer, just more criticism of Sheehan, so I am just guessing that the critics who have posted just don't use that kind of framework in discussions about the differences among us, or maybe have a much narrower view of "us" than I use.

[knowledgeispwr]

35. Two things

Let's not confound criticism with trashing. Not all criticism or disagreement is trashing.

Second, I don't see the situation as cutting off an arm necessarily. In some cases, it's a like a tumor or your own arm trying to strangle you. Or maybe a hand cut itself off. I see criticism as fine as long as it's constructive.

Also, I believe that sometimes some individuals or groups are so ideologically pure that they disregard small steps in the right direction and criticize those who look for/take those incremental passes forward. I think that is often misguided, because we simply can't always get to where we want to be as quickly as we want, no matter how justified or right we may be.

[KharmaTrain]

36. Yes, Easily Confusing

And dare I say a device used by both Sheehan supporters and detractors. There's no middle ground it appears as either Cindy's a saint or all evil.

Popular grassroot movements are always a reflection of the moment in time and the people caught up in it. It's a common cause that seizes a moment and brings people together. There's no one person, but a collection of people and events that change as the cause grows and evolves.

Cindy served as a valuable face and voice to raise awareness and unite people in a time and place where few others dared. She was a Rosa Parks...taking a first and important stand that brought others to a cause. But Rosa Parks didn't run for Congress...or attempt to take her cause outside of the realm of civil rights. Instead, her stand gave rise to a whole generation of voices and leaders and pushed her symbolism into real change.

Sadly, when Cindy steps away from her major cause...the one that brought us togehter...speaking out for the families who have lost a loved one, she does not only a diservice to herself, by allowing herself to be criticized and trashed by those looking for the opportunity, but also it takes away from the thousands of other Gold Star moms and dads who have suffered a similar loss but don't have the notariety Cindy enjoys.

I refuse to trash Cindy and continue to stand with Gold Star Mothers and other groups that are working to end this war for profit...but I, like others here, I'm sure, reserve the right to express our displesaure or opposition when we feel its warranted.

Cheers...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. The Arm Is Fine. Just Cut Out The Festering Boils.

Lefties are fine. It's the extremist narrow minded ignorant premised festering boils we need to cut out. The arm can stay.

(though I like Moore. Haven't read the slams on him here but maybe I just wasn't paying attention. My statement above is just in general.)

[leftofthedial]

37. define "we"

if you mean, we who love freedom and democracy, then you must exclude the patsies and agents of the corporate "Third Way"/DLC "democratic" leadership. That eliminates those who seek to alienate and destroy the left.

You are right. This is a class war and the capitalist oligarchs and their corporations are destroying everyone and everything on the planet except their own wealth.

[ConsAreLiars]

39. After reading through the comments, I think that defining "we" is what is at issue.

I didn't get any real answers beyond "she's not on 'our' side" and so I think this thread helped me understand their point of view a bit better. It is not a strategic thing so much as adherence to the line of one faction within the broader Democratic Party. One faction wants to end the war slowly, with a continued military presence so they oppose Code Pink, etc. and another bunch of us wants "Out Now!" And some oppose Impeachment because it might be shaking the cage too much and piss off the Corporations, while others want the criminals put on trial and held to account yesterday.

As best I can see it now, for one group, the "us" includes those for whom maintaining alliances with the established powers (otherwise no money for campaigns) is a legitimate priority. For others "us" includes all who work in whatever way they can for peace and justice and regard Iraqi lives as equal to all others and who challenge those alliances with corporatism and imperialism, in whatever manner.

I guess it is no surprise that there are differences among the broader "us," the "We The People" one. How to bring us closer together in working for our common needs is the question and the challenge. Bashing isn't likely to work, although I plead guilty to yielding to that impulse too frequently.

[Moochy]

40. Great Post!

:kick:

[Cha]

41. And now they're moving

on to Kucinich! Mow 'em down! They be Rockin' The Boat!

[mmonk]

42. By chiseling off the left,

I guess it's considered easier to get elected to the new unitary executive position. In a nutshell, the left is expendable except to be conned into voting for any dem for the sake of beating the republican party. The left's vote can always be taken for granted. What are they gonna do, vote further right?