The creepiness of "the conversation".

[Neshanic]

I don't want Clinton or Edwards doing on stage trianglulation and blatant rigging of any open dsicussions of any forums where legitimate candidates air their views.

That "conversation" was a nice peek into the personalities and tactics of two of our "front runner", neither of which will get my vote.

The dismissiveness and shortness with with Clinton handled Dennis was sickening, and our front runners don't like criticism. Well tought shit. I want to hear all those people and who the hell are Edwards and Clinton to "suggest" alternatives.

The trinity of Obama, Clinton, and Edwards would be a disaster if any was elected, and if Clinton is nomintaed, say hello to President Thompson.

It was disturbing to see the faces and expressions on these two as they discuss what they will show "us".

[LoZoccolo]

1. Every candidate should want to be the only one left. The problem with Dennis Kucinich is...

...that he fosters a mentality that anyone who wants to can also hitch a ride on the primary process to get "free" time on media outlets to spread a message that they for whatever reason can't or won't get out any other way. And if this is not intention, then he also wants to eliminate his opponents and thus can be accused of hypocrisy.

[mmonk]

9. He certainly is wrong, isn't he?

This is a big money game between big monied people backed by special interests who call in their chips at some point.

[SpiralHawk]

10. Yeah, democracy and debate really sucks

We should definitely only have a limited few viewpoints. That's the beauty of what the republicons have done to America, and what the 'leading' dems want to do: there is now a certified, approved truth. You are either for it, or you are against it. We are so fortunate to have a swelling popular approval of CONTROL, so no one will have to be troubled with untidy alternative views.

[LoZoccolo]

19. This is a strawman and not what I said. n/t

[mmonk]

20. Looks like a hit piece on Kucinich to me.

Hard not to see it. You're basically saying he shouldn't run and is just piggy backing on the system like a freeloader.

[LoZoccolo]

21. I did not say that democracy and debate sucks and there should be only one point of view.

I will say that if someone does have to freeload (I'll use that word) off the debate to get certain issues heard, there is a lot of things they should have been doing way before the the debates even started that they didn't do. Not just the candidate, but the supporters. Hitching a ride on the debate punishes the people who have gained widespread consensus for the neglectful actions of people who haven't.

[mmonk]

23. Big money pushes big media.

If you're not in that system, you'll be shouted down or marginalized or ridiculed and can't gather enough support.

[LoZoccolo]

25. And so what are you going to do about it?

You see, I'm actually pushing people to exercise more democracy and debate. You have to take responsibility for getting what you want, and all the obstacles you face.

[mmonk]

26. Easy to say.

We work at it but no matter how much and hard an ant takes on an elephant, they still get squashed.

[mmonk]

29. I tell you what. Here's your opportunity to help us.

Here's our situation. The party apparatus is basically in opposition. The media outlets want to marginalize us or have made the determiniation before we get out of the gate that we are marginal and thus limit their coverage. Corporations oppose us for the most part and don't donate. When we talk to other democrats, they just say we can't win and repeat the vanity candidate talk or carry the attitude of those politicians they are used to listening to that we're just "happy talk".

Ok, begin.

[LoZoccolo]

32. If you're asking me to hand you a solution, you still don't understand. n/t

[mmonk]

37. Let me put it another way.

Unless your candidate has to meet these obstacles that really shouldn't be there in a properly performing democracy, don't judge our progress.

[NC_Nurse]

2. Sadly, politicians are like this...the whole campaign is

like a strategic battle to them. Like Survivor or something.
I doubt anyone who doesn't play the game is going to rise to the top.
RFK, Jr. was right. The system is so totally corrupt at this point, it's hard to imagine
ANYONE who has been a part of it not being influenced.

[Bake]

35. And it IS a very strategic competition.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding him/herself.

Bake

[Neshanic]

3. Oh, my personal stalker.

[CanonRay]

4. Typical DLC bullshit

That's the way they think; the "masses" can't make a decision, "we" need to make it for them. Top down leadership, so typical of DLC thinking.

[papau]

8. Just for the record, there are 19 folks filed for Democratic nomination for President primaries so

far - the field on the stage is already reduced to those with a national name and at least 1% support (although Gravel actually polls less than 1% and DK breaks 1% only of late and didn't at the beginning)

[mmonk]

12. But there's a big difference in why Gravel is in it

vs. the frontrunners. This isn't a personal dream for him.

[LoZoccolo]

18. I don't think you can make an appeal that the "masses" support Kucinich...

...after you look at his poll numbers.

[Bake]

34. Please. Feel free to make your own decision.

Nobody's stopping you. Unfortunately, only 3-5 percent of Democrats agree with you, i.e., Kucinich's support.

Bake

[papau]

5. Primaries are for finding out who has the most support in the party - and this will

no doubt affect some votes.

But as to Thompson - or any GOP nominated - any of our top 3 can beat any and all of their top 3.

[Neshanic]

24. I would not bet the farm on that. The election is still far away.

[mmonk]

6. Politics is a dirty business between ambitious people.

When it gets to the presidential level, its much more so. People who are truely in it for the sake of the people are usually unbacked and appear out of nowhere for a brief time before they are written off as kooks.

[CrispyQ]

13. Some occupations seem to attract the very people that should not be entrusted to do those jobs.

Politics, management, & law enforcement come to mind.

[mmonk]

15. Yep.

Politics would be so much better if races were publicly financed. Then it would be a real battle of ideas instead of parsing words and marginalizations.

[Nay]

30. Add the clergy to your list, too.

[Zenlitened]

7. I guess I'm not seeing it as such a big deal. I mean, the whole process...

... is about narrowing down the field. I can't really blame any candidate for wanting to knock their opponents off the board. In a certain sense, that's the whole point, really.

:shrug:

[Neshanic]

11. Then why even listen to the debates? Let Edwards and Clinton decide.

[paulk]

36. people are listening, and to a certain extent, people are deciding

hence DK and Gravel's low poll numbers and inability to raise enough money to be competitive. Ultimately, it's the party that decides, anyway, and as such, the party candidates with a realistic chance at winning are going to have a bigger voice in the process than those who don't.

[zeemike]

14. That just triggered an Idea on how to fix the campaign thing

And get people interested too.

Make it a reality TV show where the public can vote each week to send one home
And every week they would have some challenge relevant to be president so we could judge them.

[Webster Green]

16. I'll be voting for Dennis again..

..or Al Gore. if he gets in.

[librechik]

17. If they are both elected, I woiuld hope they can work together confidentially

we are all on the same team, here. I want them all to be feisty and clever and strategic. Dennis should be too. He just sounds like a crybaby. You don't hear Obama bitching, and presumably he was "targeted" too.

[mondo joe]

22. The Democratic nominee will have to fight whatever unethical pig the GOP puts up - I want it to be

someone who can fight and win.

[JacquesMolay]

27. Shit like that goes on all the time ....

... but Fox News sure as hell didn't broadcast the interaction between Bush and McCain in 2000, after Bush's nasty phone campaign here in South Carolina, accusing McCain of fathering a black daughter. Bush turned to him during a break in the debate and said 'it's just politics, John'. If Fox followed Kucinich and the rest around, and ran stuff off-mic, I doubt it all of it would be flattering.

[emulatorloo]

28. No -- the creepyness of FOX - Fox Mic, Fox Feed, Fox Story -- FOX DISTORTION

As you know Fox has a history of presenting democrats in the WORST POSSIBLE LIGHT>

I have seen the video of the report and to me it is unclear what the hell they are talking about.

VID HERE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x40560

Read the subtitles -- totally unclear what the conversation is about.

But fox reporter immediately jumps to the conclusion that they are "plotting" to exclude Dennis Kucinich et al.

IMHO Fox Lied and Distorted

Fox has a history of misreporting things to put Democrats in the worst light possible. My feeling is that they do it to pit democrat activists against one another -- Divide and Conquer is the oldest RNC GOP ROVE strategy in the book.

DU thread re edwards explanation:

What the "secret conversation" was really about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1328351&mesg_id=1328351

[Neshanic]

31. Oh, that's better even. Two groups, the chosen, and the ones we do not want on stage with us.

[Cameron27]

33. It did look creepy,

and they're getting a lot of bad press about it. I understand the frustration of having so many candidates debating at the same time, but that wasn't the time or place to discuss it, and frankly, it would have been better all around if they'd just taken it up with the DNC.