Hate Crime Suspect says he was doing God's work!

[Catherine Vincent]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4968717.html?plckCurrentPage=3

July 15, 2007, 12:34AM
Murder suspect says he was doing God's work
Cypress man is being held in the June death of flight attendant

By PAIGE HEWITT
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A Cypress man charged in the death of a Southwest Airlines flight attendant said Saturday that he was doing God's work when he went to a Montrose-area bar last month, hunting for a gay man to kill.

"I believe I'm Elijah, called by God to be a prophet," said 26-year-old Terry Mark Mangum, charged with murder June 11. " ... I believe with all my heart that I was doing the right thing."

Interviewed in the Brazoria County Jail Saturday morning, Mangum said he feels no remorse for killing 46-year-old Kenneth Cummings Jr., whom relatives described as a "loving" son who never forgot a holiday and a devoted uncle who had set up college funds for his niece and nephew. He worked at Southwest for 24 years.

Mangum, who described himself as "definitely not a homosexual," said God called on him to "carry out a code of retribution" by killing a gay man because "sexual perversion" is the "worst sin." Mangum believed Cummings to be gay. "I planned on sending him to hell," he said.

.....


Rest in Peace, Kenneth Cummings, Jr.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. And some don't think bigotry can be deadly.

This is so disgusting in so many ways.

Also, I wonder if anyone who is against the Hate Crimes bill can explain to me how this murder is no different than a drive-by and why a stiffer sentence shouldn't be enacted?!

[Chipper Chat]

8. Believe it or not - there was a judge in Dallas in 1987

who gave a killer a lighter sentence because his murdered victims were gay. It caused quite an uproar at the time. (Dont remember his name - maybe some DUer might)

[meegbear]

15. Lest we forget Harvey Milk ...

the prosecution worked on getting a "conservative" jury because they felt they would be more inclined to give the death penalty. Look what happened there.

[John Q. Citizen]

101. As I recall, Milk was mudered not because he was gay, but because of

a dispute. Didn't the murderer just get fired or demoted?

[Pushed To The Left]

12. Funny how the religious right claims to be tough on crime, but is soft on crimes that happen as a

result of bigotry.

[Smarmie Doofus]

26. But can religion be harmless?

I'm not sure.




But this part I believe:



>>>>Mangum — who claimed he has studied the Bible for "thousands and thousands and thousands of hours" —>>>

Ya didn't have to tell me.

[MLFerrell]

28. If he studied the Bible, he must have missed these parts;

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[Hippo_Tron]

100. There's also that Thou Shalt Not Kill part

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[me b zola]

40. The poster that you are responding to did not "condemn" anybody

Is your faith so week (or hateful) that you feel the need to call someone pathetic because they dare to ask a philosophical question about religion in general?

[spoony]

43. Yes, they did

Saying that they aren't sure religious beliefs can be harmless (and obviously it refers to religious people, then, because what else holds beliefs and what else can cause effects from them?) is saying that religious people are possibly inherently dangerous. It's a bigoted statement. It isn't philosophy anymore than the old studies about black people being inferior were science.

DU is so fucking awash in this ugliness that it's hard finding a page of posts that isn't infected with it.

[me b zola]

47. Bad analogy

"The old studies about black people" refers to people, and yes, that was indeed bigoted.

Religions are institutions that are built upon belief systems , not inherent qualities/genetic traits.

The person was indeed pondering a question about religion (not God) that I myself am not sure of the answer. It is not "ugliness" to question institutions, particuarly when said institution is responsible for spreading hatred, war, and other unseemly offenses against humanity.

There are several (of have no idea of how many) of us here who believe in God and are quite offended by the actions of many religious institutions. My faith isn't threatened by philosophy and debate. I don't understand your "faith".

[Madspirit]

50. Thank-You!!...n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

70. As bad as they come. Thanks. nt

[Zucca]

71. Ok then

Saying the "gay rights movement" is an "evil" group that cares only about its needs and is trying to push its morals on everyone else... is not bigoted or racist?


Using your logic stated here...." It is not "ugliness" to question institutions," It is not.


Your post is not accurate, as the above example by me is not accurate. The gay rights movement is organized and has leaders and could be loosely defined as an institution.


an organization, establishment, foundation, society, or the like, devoted to the promotion of a particular cause or program, esp. one of a public, educational, or charitable character: This college is the best institution of its kind.

[me b zola]

98. People who believe in & work for civil rights for all people do not constitute an institution

I really don't know how to assist you in your feelings of persecution. Perhaps a therapist could help you.

[spoony]

103. There is no such thing as

a discussion of the effects of "religion" that does not involve religious PEOPLE. It is inherently a comment about PEOPLE.

And my analogy was perfectly apt, unfortunately you chose to focus on the wrong part. It was a comment on the strategies of bigots, not the perfect similarity of race and religion. It was a functional comparison in that they are identifiable groups that some people hate.

[Smarmie Doofus]

69. No , he didn't. See my post # 67.

No " ugliness" involved.

[Smarmie Doofus]

67. Wow. I'd say you're a tad over the top.

I pose a fair question. I didn't say that all religious people should or could be "condemned".

Rather: I'd suggest that they might be *in error*, and the consequences of their error might be dangerous. ( Hence: "I'm not sure".)

The thought processes of the accused... as represented in the article ... seem not to be different in kind than the thought processes of most religionists. They may be different in *degree*, but all varieties of religious thinking indulge a certain proclivity to , for instance, the irrational. ( I don't think this is debatable, really. The very essence of what the religionists call "faith").

In this case the perp is pretty much out of step with mainstream religionists but is very much ON THE SAME TRACK, i.e. on the irrational, magical thinking, other-worldly "Express" ( toot-toot!). He's exceeded the speed limit but hasn't yet jumped the track by any means.

The question for some of us is whether the "moderate" relgionists... those who don't go around killing innocent people, or even sanctioning it... *enable* the extremists/ fundamentalists/ holy warriors ( call 'em what you will) by sharing and promoting the same philosophical premises and indeed, lending them a sort of cover of respectability.

END of explanation.
PS. Speaking of irrational, what's Clinton doing in here? Another "article of faith"?

[Madspirit]

72. Beautifully Put Paul!...n/t

[Zucca]

32. Was Dahmer a homosexual?

Yeah he was, should we use him to condemn them all. Nah that wopuld be bigoted like your obvious anti-religious bigotry!

No Thanks, We do not need any bigotry...not even yours pal!

LOL I laugh at pathetic people who practice bigotry while slamming other folks version of it, SUCH A JOKE!

Unbelievable!

Go Clinton! First woman President will be more of a man the DUHHHBYA

[Zucca]

33. Sorry bout the triple click

Puter trouble

[KAZ]

73. Sorry Zucca, it's a bit more than just "Puter trouble".

Your analogies would make more sense if Paul was, to use your term, "condemning" all whites, since the perp happened to be Caucasian. Being gay is not an exercise in faith.

[Zucca]

74. The one person says it is ok to critisize "institutions"

I am making my analogies based on the fact that both groups fit the "institution" definition. Both groups apparently have a few members that need a different institution though..

When activist respect others rights, then theirs will be respected too.

Sit back and look at this nuetrally...Gay rights folks bash Christians...Christian righties bash back, BOTH GROUPS BROADLY INSULT WHOLE GROUPS OVER A FEW INDIVIDUALS. Bigotry on both sides.

Sho nuff is a pathetic display by both the activists and their polar opposite/moral scale equal...Jerry Fallwell!

[Bluebear]

75. "Gay rights folks bash Christians" - - - yes, the poor, persecuted Christians.

Always being bashed by those "gay rights folks".

[Madspirit]

78. I Love Bluebear

Bluebear, you are one of THE most loved people here. I just want to :hug: you.

...and as you guys told me, "Ignore" is a wonderful tool. My blood pressure has already gone down.

Lee

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

80. I'm sure the "stalkers" hearts are collectively broken.

Meanwhile, didn't you say you preferred to post on a Christian site and not here, a site filled with hateful "religiophobic" bashers?

[KAZ]

86. "When activist respect others rights". It's a Deal!

There would be no issue at all, if the rights afforded to those who are genetically desirous of the opposite sex, we're afforded to those who aren't. Seems like a simple solution. Glad you suggested it Zucca!

[Zucca]

89. Thank You

Thats pretty much all I want here. Rights for everyone and respect for everyone.

I fail to see how asking the people on both sides of an issue to stop breeding contempt is bad.

I hope at least a few people can understand my point here. Bigotry or hatred from anyone at all is wrong.

As far as the MAIN topic of this thread goes, I hope they prosecute this guy for hate crimes and lock him up forever. Thats all we can hope for. Death Penalty is kind of frowned on in cases for the mentally ill, and I pretty much cannot support that. If proven sane...Then hey, He brought himself to this point.

[Madspirit]

90. Huh?

Gay bars and establishments get burned down by straight white Christians. More than 1200 gays a year, according to the Department of Justice, are murdered by straight white Christians.

Abortion clinics are burned down and bombed by straight white Christians. Doctors who perform abortions are murdered by straight white Christians.

...and the only churches I ever see burned down are black ones and it's by straight white Christians.

...and the largest act of terrorism perpetrated against this country, prior to 9/11, was done by a straight white Christian.

Where exactly is all this straight white Christian bashing happening? Inquiring minds want to know. I mean we even have a straight white theocrat in the White House.

Straight white Christians control the world and are killing everyone...to the tune of over 300,000 Iraqis, so far.

So, please point me in the direction of the straight white Christian people being bashed. I see criticisms, occasionally, here but I don't see any damage, any death, any bombings, any burnings, any murder. I want to see. Please.

Show me the gay gangs burning the straight people's houses and bars. PLEASE. Show me the gay gangs burning the Christian churches. PLEASE. Show me the women who want abortions burning down the straight white Christian's gathering places. PLEASE. I just have to see this. Links too...PLEASE.

Lee

[Madspirit]

91. I'm kind of "duh" today...sorry

You were being snarky and on our side, I think. Sorry. I need more coffee.
Lee

[KAZ]

92. No worries mate! The Z-man agrees, so all is good.

And your post rocked, BTW!

[Madspirit]

94. Thank-you!

So did yours!

Lee

[Gelliebeans]

99. I am sorry but

I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly...you think that Christians are persecuted by GLBT community? What kind of numbers are we talking about here. HOW MANY GAY PEOPLE have murdered Christians because of their belief?

Sorry I DO NOT see the equivalency here and I'm quite sure many would not either.

edited spelling*

[sakabatou]

2. I think he might get out by insanity

The again...? :(

[Double T]

3. Interesting how much evil is done in the name of 'god'.

No wonder 'HE' or 'SHE' is pissed at 'US'.

[EST]

4. What a heartbreaking tragedy.

Perhaps it is something which needs to be discussed in depth in the religious forum, but, since the young murderer's declaration of fealty to his interpretation of some sort of directive from god, the questions will arise.

In the face of speculation about the value of religion that promotes murder of one's fellows, if there were no religion involved, would the predator find some equally sound reason for his dark aspirations?

Does his need to kill so override any conscience remaining so that he feels comfortable with owning his participation in the vile deed but must blame another party for the motivation and guidance?
Those who feel betrayed by religion and have a need to crucify it will make the point that his misguided religious vision bears considerable responsibility, while there is also the valid argument that he would seize whatever tool would serve.

Are there any accurate statistics concerning the crime rates and types based on religious versus atheistic outlooks?

[Catherine Vincent]

5. Heartbreaking for both families

This murdering scum buried the body at his 90 year old grandfather's land. They showed him on tv a few weeks ago and he had such a disgusting and sad look on his face because of what his grandson did.

[Toasterlad]

24. "if there were no religion involved..."

Yes, I think he would have found another "reason" to do what he did...or something like it. The man is obviously a lunatic. As anti-religion as I am, I can't blame the fundies for this murder. If he hadn't killed this man because he thought "gay people deserve to go to hell", he would have done it for something else.

That being said, fundamentalist dogma provides entirely too convenient a platform of hate for these loonies to latch on to. There are saner people out there committing acts just as vile. Matthew Sheppard, anyone?

[orleans]

6. ...

"Meanwhile, the man charged with Cummings’ murder is being held at the Brazoria County Detention Center.

"Terry Mark Mangum, 26, is the son of a Harris County sheriff’s deputy.

"He’s being held on $500,000 bail.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou070623_tnt_kennethcummings.982089e.html


Missing victim Kenneth Cummings Jr. (left) and suspect Terry Mark Mangum.

[w13rd0]

7. I do not support the death penalty...

...against humans.

But on that note, Terry Mark Mangum (man gum? seriously?), needs to be put down.

[Bluebear]

11. Much too good for him. Let him fester in a cell 50 years with his Bible. nt

[cboy4]

9. And, he set the body on fire with lighter fluid. What a touching

story about another so-called Christian.

I wonder if he was programmed at Jesus Camp, with all of the other future psychopaths?

[Bluebear]

10. Well, after all, he was "sending him to hell."

Poor, poor Ken.

[Swamp Rat]

13. poor Kenneth

:cry:

[OneBlueSky]

14. in some cases, religion definitely does equal insanity . . . n/t

.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Toasterlad]

49. That's Funny. Nowhere in the Book of Gay Does it Say Christianity Is an Abomination.

As per my post above, I agree that you can't blame this particular tragedy on religion, since the man was insane. But please don't equate religion to homosexuality. One is a completely conscious embrace of a set of values, the other is what a person IS. They are NOT comparable.

I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt by people posting anti-religious rants in a thread about a gay man being killed by a religious nut job. However - and this is just a suggestion - this might not be the best place to mount your defense of religion. Many might find it distasteful, if not disrespectful to the dead man in the OP.

[Zucca]

58. Agree to most of your points.

I was just trying to curb the posts that use one case or a few individuals to bash millions of others. If I start a post on my own about it I will get flamed anyway. Some people, and I mean from both sides of any issue...are so blinded by their own hatred they cannot see it. It is truly sad.

[Toasterlad]

60. Yes, It Is Truly Sad.

There's a difference between a thoughtful, determined attack and a reaction to a horrific story with provocative aspects. It is presumptuous of you to assume that all the people attacking this killer and/or religion in general are doing so out of hate. It would be more appropriate for you to confront bigotry in a thread where people are NOT reacting out of grief or shock at yet ANOTHER senseless attack on a gay individual where religion is an issue.

You have every right to post where and when you want. I'd advise you to show a little more empathy and restraint in the future, however.

[Bluebear]

61. Indeed. nt

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

63. 'Id rather belong to the Christian group then a group of hate preaching activists'

Then run along, why don't you?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

85. Well said!!

:thumbsup:

[Madspirit]

59. "Nowhere in the Book of Gay Does it Say Christianity Is an Abomination."

:rofl:

You just became a hero!

Thanks.

Lee

[kevinbgoode]

I must have missed the stories which declared that Jeffrey Dahmer

was deliberately seeking heterosexual men as his victims.

[spoony]

44. No, in some cases insanity takes on religious themes.

Saying it's the other way around is idiotic.

[Zucca]

65. Exactly

Just as religion is also abused by some to start wars. A rallying cry for corrupt leaders to further their economic and political goals. Power and greed are at the root of most warts. I for one do not completely believe that Al Queda members are as religious as they claim...They are just the flip side of Bush and the Repub right abusing a religion to gather support.

[terrya]

16. Yet another hate crime. It's heartbreaking to read about these.

RIP, Ken.

[Ian David]

17. Magnum may be "definitely not a homosexual," but try and tell that to his cell mate.

Who da bitch now, Terry Magnum?

Well, you found you a queer
You promised him some head
Drove him out, tied him up, beat him down and left him for dead
"That’s what you get bitch"
Well that’s what you said
You didn’t see it was wrong, no you were only seeing red...
But now you’ll see pinstripes
Bunched around your ankles every night

You’ll get used to it much quicker
If you give up the fight and just allow...
And Who Da Bitch Now?

The irony is plain to see
If you know the definition
You try to be B.M.O.C.
And end up in this position...


More:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/schwartz4

[dsc]

18. a true shame

Given what some religions people say of gays we shouldn't be surprised when this sort of thing happens.

[tanyev]

19. 'Mangum, who described himself as "definitely not a homosexual" '

He just killed a man and the thing he's most concerned about is whether or not people think he's a homosexual? Calling Dr. Freud.

[BlooInBloo]

37. Methinks the hate-filled-one doth protest too much?

[Richard Steele]

46. Exactly. That caught my eye as well. Who the hell SAYS that? I think we can guess. nm

[DeSwiss]

20. This is one time I'm glad the murderer will face Texas justice....

...or what passes for it down there. Given he's the son of a peace officer, I doubt he'd get the death penalty. But the loony toons act won't wash. If' he's Elijah doing god's work, why'd he hide the body in a shallow grave?

Lock him up and throw away the key. Then he'll have thousands and thousand more hours in which to study the bible.



K&R

[terrya]

22. Federal hate crimes legislation will be voted on soon.

I believe this week, in fact.

Enough is fucking enough. Scum like this asshole SHOULD be accountable for the hate crimes they commit.

[Solly Mack]

21. piece of shit

[NMMNG]

23. "Sexual perversion is the worst sin"

Somehow I think murder is far worse. But that's just my humble opinion.

[mwb970]

25. Religion will be the death of America. /nt

[Clark2008]

51. No. Man's inability to practice religion in moderation, as Jesus

requested, will be the death of America.

Religion, in and of itself, is not bad. How Mankind practices it can be.

[shenmue]

27. Ahem. "Thou shalt not kill." Remember that, Terry?

:grr:

This is crazy. Somebody died because somebody else didn't like him.

:cry:

Meshuggeneh velt.

[Siyahamba]

57. Gay seems to be a super-sin among fundamentalists

It even trumps the Ten Commandments.

[salin]

29. murder "suspect" ?? Er - how about "Confessed Murderer"?

bad reporting.

Horrendous story.

And some folks still get caught up in the old meme that there don't need to be "hate" crimes - this dude wasn't going to kill BUT for his hatred (and, I would gather, some mental unbalance).

[malaise]

30. So where exactly does

Thou shalt not kill fit into his religion. Throw away the fugging key.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Duh.

[Zucca]

38. DUHHHHBYA!

Is that you?


:>)

[mitchum]

39. Fine...Mangum and "Elijah" can do the sentence together

[LeftishBrit]

42. He is clearly mentally ill..

However, the *nature* of his delusions is clearly influenced by the culture around him.

It's all very frightening.

[mitchtv]

52. This is Texas, however,

One should expect the DP except he is straight , white, related to a lawman, and he only killed a gay. I'll withhold my predictions, but I sense a "liberal" jury, unless it doesn't get that far.

[Madspirit]

54. ...and the one place

I'm a Texan. I do not support the death penalty. I think the guy is sick and we do have a facility here for the criminally insane....Rusk.

If he was tried in Austin, where I live, they would care that the victim was gay. We are very liberal. So much so, we rarely do the death penalty in our county.

Austin is one of the few cities in Texas that has and does support the Democratic candidate for president ALWAYS and without exception. ..and because of our liberalism, we rarely sentence people to death. We're kind of an oasis in Texas.

If he is tried someplace else, which he will be, the "gay" part probably will save him. They really don't care if you kill us gays/lesbians in some parts of Texas, the same parts that if it was for killing someone else would give him the death penalty.
Lee

[mitchtv]

56. yup

there will be No Matthew Shepherd effect in this case. You have it pegged like I believe it will come down

[Elspeth]

48. This is not God's work. This is a chemical brain disorder.

Or, maybe just plain evil.

[me b zola]

53. God's work seems to have little to do with religion

But I have seen quite a bit of evil conducting it's business from religious institutions.

[spanone]

55. A sad, sick human being mr. mangrum is.

[Madspirit]

66. I Almost Forgot...k&r...n/t

[Maestro]

68. Okay it's cases like this that really make me question

the usefulness of religion. What a fucking idiot! May in rot in jail for the rest of life where he can get all the sex he wants from some guy named Fred. Karma is a bitch you asshole!

[nam78_two]

77. K&R-RIP Kenneth Cummings Jr.nt

[Okiojira]

79. Can't these idiots just fucking kill themselves

and go be with their loving Gawd and leave everybody else the fuck alone?!? Oh right, suicide's a sin....murder in the name of whatever invisible entity you pray to is much more preferable to just ending your own misbegotten life (and in doing so, sparing others anguish and heartache). :sarcasm:

[leftofthedial]

81. I thought this was a bush thread

at first

[Madspirit]

82. Clever!

It sure fits doesn't it!
Lee

[Rosa Luxemburg]

84. darn, yes!

[Hawaii Hiker]

83. Terry Mangum, may you die in prison you piece of shit

either that or get beaten to death by another inmate, either way, as long as that sub-human piece of garbage never sees the light of day again...

This is just another example of why society needs to become more secular....Some people get so warped from religion & they become psychopaths like the Mangum creep...

There is a saying from the 16th. century that goes:

"Men never do evil so completely & cheerfully as when they do it thru religious conviction"....

And this Mangum creature is proof of that....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

95. That was Blaise Pascal, mathematician and inventor of the roulette wheel.

And the guy who worked out the laws of probability, so you'll know why the casino always wins.

[Hawaii Hiker]

96. That's the name, Pascal!!, thank you, I

was trying to remember it when I wrote that response, but it escaped me...

Did he really invent the roulette wheel?, I never knew that - interesting..

[and-justice-for-all]

87. How convenient!!! nt

[cboy4]

88. Only at DU would I find out this story had turned into a flame war.

:eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

93. Yes I know.

Disheartening to see a lot of deleted posts and sub-threads.

[MetaTrope]

97. Make this man a Congressional page!

There are plenty of Republican senators who would like to, you know, use him.

[baby_mouse]

102. What a depressingly stupid man. NT