Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Cindy Sheehan: Torture Is A War Crime

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 12:36 PM
Original message
Cindy Sheehan: Torture Is A War Crime
Torture Is A War Crime
by Cindy Sheehan

Journey For Humanity and Accountability - Day 5

Today our Journey took us to Ft. Benning, Ga, where the cancer of the School of Americas (WINSEC) is housed. I have written on torture before and I believe that BushCo’s policy of imprisoning people without their basic due process and torturing them is one of the grossest breeches of international and American law and one of the overriding reasons that they should be impeached.

The School of Torture has graduated many egregious violators of human rights like Panamanian drug lord, U.S. CIA employee, and Bush family friend (until he became an enemy), Manuel Noriega. If there is one issue that should unite Americans it should be against torture. Incredibly, we still have neighbors in our communities who believe that torture is correct, humane and valuable. However to say torture is “wrong” is like saying the sky is blue. Torture is inherently wrong. Torture is pure evil. Torture is an abomination. Torture is disordered and demented. Torture is sick, sick, sick!

Most significantly the people who are being tortured in such prison camps as Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were mostly sold to the US Army by bounty hunters and the Northern Aliance. Criminal charges against the prisoners are as rare as the truth in the Bush Regime. Most reasonable people would agree that information gleaned from such awfully brutal means (water-boarding, stress positions, extreme noise and temperatures, sodomy and other sexual humiliation, electrodes on genitalia, etc) is never reliable. I can’t even fathom the sick, sadistic minds of the Bush Regime who not only have authorized and institutionalized this behavior but also refuse to end it and close the camps that have undermined any moral authority the US may have had.

Torture not only dehumanizes the tortured, but the torturer. It hurts my heart deeply to think of our young soldiers carrying out such ruthless acts on other humans who for the most part were in the wrong place at the wrong time and do not know where Osama bin Laden is hiding. Torture only compromises our soldiers’ lives in the field as the US cannot credibly claim any kind of moral high ground if one of our soldiers is tragically captured. The abomination of Abu Ghraib is one of the reasons that the insurgency began on the day Casey was killed in Sadr City, Baghdad. I personally know three men who were illegally and wrongly imprisoned in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib who can testify to the fact that, yes, America does torture and does so with extreme, callous and cold-hearted cruelty.

The Geneva Conventions are clear on prohibiting the use of torture and the 8th Amendment to our own Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. When torture is official policy, where will it end? When George can pick and choose who receives the centuries old right to habeas corpus and who doesn’t, where will it end? Will it end with the “terrorists” in Guantanamo or will it be used here in the USA against those who stand up against tyranny and struggle for our Constitution, freedoms, peace and human rights?

Torture has tarnished the soul of our nation and Congress has done little to restrain BushCo’s Torquemadas and even when a bill is passed restricting the use of torture, George adds a signing statement saying that he is above the law. BushCo is no better than a crime cabal and they must be Consitutionally controlled.

Apparently impeachment is the only remedy for torture and will go a long way to elevating our country’s standing in the international community and to healing our broken nation. Impeachment is not an optional menu item that can be set on a table but a Constitutionally mandated requirement (See section II, Article IV).

Put it back on the table, Ms. Pelosi. We have over a million signatures on petitions demanding that Congress end the misery of our nation and world by impeaching George Bush and Dick Cheney.

Action items: Go to: www.impeachbush.org to sign the petition to impeach Bush.

Go to: www.thecampcaseyinstitute.org for more info on our Journey for Humanity and Accountability or to donate to defray our expenses.

Call Nancy Pelosi’s office (202-225-4965) to tell her to green light impeachment.

Join us in our walk from Arlington Cemetery to Congressman John Conyer’s office for a sit-in for impeachment on July 23rd or organize sit-ins in your Congress Rep’s local office.

Go to Amnesty International to learn more about the issue of torture.

Cindy Sheehan is the mother of Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan who was KIA in Iraq on 04/04/04. She is a co-founder and President of Gold Star Families for Peace and the author of two books: Not One More Mother’s Child and Dear President Bush.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is what true leadership looks like.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. This is what activism looks like. And I like it . Cindy is right. Impeachment is the right
responce to a criminal administration.

There is no other remedy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. k&r...Right On Cindy!...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Keep hitting them with the truth Cindy
The rats are cornered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Very well said !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. You are right again, Cindy! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you again Mrs. Sheehan! K&R! eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Cindy Sheehan - American hero
As was noted on the Bill Moyers show, Pelosi et. al. are violating their oath to uphold the Constitution by not initiating impeachment hearings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Big Pappa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is all true,
but it is not like Bush opened the School of Americas. Has anyone asked any of our "top tier candidates if they would shut it down? I believe we all have some responsibility in this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phildo Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Cindy is correct. Even kidnapping the civies involved is a War Crime.
I used to teach Geneva Conventions and Land of Law Warfare to my troops. Nothing profound, just part of the periodic training all units are required to cover with their troops.

But I cannot believe the current crop of troops do not know this stuff is illegal. I have no idea why so few troops have not refused to go along with this stuff.

Hopefully we can get Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfield and Rice shipped to the Hague for this stuff. Yugoslavia sent Milo.

Yunno, I would take a couple months off work to help one of your candidates get elected if they had prosecution of Bush, et al for War Crimes as part of their action plan. I bet a lot of ex-military folks would.

But yeah, I know, War Crimes Prosecution is "Not On The Table."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Great statement for the most part. But I take issue with the following portion -
We have over a million signatures on petitions demanding that Congress end the misery of our nation and world by impeaching George Bush and Dick Cheney.

Impeachment will not "end our misery" and I don't think it's honest to promote that notion. Impeachment will not likely remove Bush and Cheney, at least not yet. I DO agree with the rest of her statement.

I also wonder if Cindy has commented on the Democratic House passing legislation that calls for the troops to leave Iraq in 120 days? That was her primary concern not long ago, so I expect we'll hear something? Anyone?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. This IS the Democratic position, so if DINOs are not acting (or only acting after pressure from
Sheehan), then she speaks more for the Democratic Party than its purported leaders. Don't tell supporting her is not supporting the Democratic Party -- she is doing that and far more -- forcing its lost leaders back to their base.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phildo Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I would submit your "lost leaders" are truly lost and you would do better replacing thiem.
Your top end folks are not lost or stupid.

They are on their own path.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. pffft! Yawn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The goal now is to highlight every good thing she says....
Edited on Sun Jul-15-07 02:24 PM by BlooInBloo
... in the hopes that DUers will forget that they're members of the party of slavery.

It's a good plan, likely to work on almost all.


EDIT: Agenda-reporting is what happens when the number of news sources becomes small.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. does she think we are stupid?
of couse torture is wrong......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. LOL! I thought you were talking about someone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. My democratic senator
voted for the Bush torture bill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. So did mine
He supports the war also and he won't even discuss impeachment. But since he's a Democrat, I guess I am supposed to be so grateful he represents me. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. BOO CINDY! BOO! BOO!! BOO!1!
Pffft!!! What an attention whore!! She's nuts!! She should just shut up!!! She'll destroy the Democratic Party!!!!! She's become completely irrelevant!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111

I'M SOOO SICK OF CINDY THREADS AND HER WORSHIPPERS!!!!11111!!!!!!111111!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111111







:D





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. She wears t-shirts! She challenges Junior! She petitions Congress!
SHE MUST BE STOPPED!

Go, Cindy! Don't let anyone shut you up!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. You AND Swampy
You two just misbehave all the time. What will we do with you two? :rofl:

I know! :hug:

Lee
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I'm just having fun while supporting Democracy in America.
:D


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. LOL! An all purpose bumpersticker!
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Cindy speaks for me.
She is also speaking for my neighbors in L5P and at the land trust.
We heard her speak last night and we all agree that she speaks for us.

Keep on speaking Cindy.We are listening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. DU - Please give consideration to Vyan's important point
HERE >

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3379279&mesg_id=3379279

Impeachment and Removal, though frankly necessary, is not yet a possibility except as a pointless exercise in vainglory. Just as failed subpoenas have further emboldened the rampant lawlessness of this Presidency, a failed Impeachment Vote or even a failure to Remove in the Senate would make Bush nigh unto a God. All powerful. Unstoppable. That can't happen.

I hadn't considered this possibility, personally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Due consideration to the cowardly position given, and summarily discarded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Okey dokey.
Thanks for the "consideration." ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. "a failed Impeachment ... would make Bush nigh unto a God." - How?
What mechanism, derived from or born out of a failed impeachment, would make Bushler into a God? How can this theory be proved?

Is there some other method by which We the People can coerce an errant president to cooperate and therefore resign?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I think the fear is he'll be emboldened? And as such we need to wait?
I'm entertaining the possibility, and I appreciate your response. I would like to see more discussion on this notion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I understand, but isn't he already emboldened?
After 6.5 years he has:

1. Altered, skirted, and ignored the U.S. Constitution.

2. Damaged two branches of our government, the Judicial and Executive.

3. Lied in order to start a war for profit and threatening to open it up to a regional conflict.

4. Broken numerous international treaties.

5. Allowed a major American city to die and its citizens suffer.

6. Ignored domestic terrorism, i.e. anthrax killer(s).

7. Stolen approximately a trillion dollars from the national treasury.

... etc., yet he has not been stopped.

In fact, he talks and acts just like any other dictator in every public appearance, and even despite a huge outcry, the media still will not ask him direct questions about these crimes.

He is already 100% emboldened, in my opinion.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. LOL, now there's a point. However with a Democratic congress
Edited on Sun Jul-15-07 03:42 PM by mzmolly
now, at least we have "something" to hold over his big ol' head. I support impeachment, and those crying out for it NOW are a necessary force/voice so I applaud you all for doing so. I, on the other hand want us to make it impossible not to remove the beast by the time we're done digging.

;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thank you.
It's my job. :D



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. And you're very good at it!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. Never say it can't get worse
It can always get worse.

If an impeachment attempt fails the right wing will see it as proof they can get away with anything. If an impeachment attempt succeeds, and the GOP loses the 2008 election, the right wing won't think they can get away with everything. I'd rather Democrats tried it when we have the votes.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. key word for the dems
"FEAR FEAR FEAR" :eyes: I am so sick of their political FEAR. Were they not elected to do a fucking job? Do you know what a good portion of that job is? CHECKS and BALANCES! Lordy, Madison is rolling in his grave.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I think that's a valid point.
Fear can not dictate our response to defending the constitution. However, we can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by airing the evidence over the next several months vs. impeaching next week?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. It's just the hyperbolic expression of abject cowardice.
Edited on Sun Jul-15-07 03:38 PM by BlooInBloo
EDIT: typo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Cowardice or knowing your enemy?
Edited on Sun Jul-15-07 03:41 PM by mzmolly
No one says "don't impeach" but rather "failed removal NOW may further embolden Bush."

Can you expand on what you think Bush would do with a failed attempt to remove him from office now?

By the way I support impeachment and I think it will happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Maybe just lazy and not abject?
:rofl:

(Laughing can be an antidote to abject depression.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. I hardly ever get to use the word! Bubble-popper! Wind-stealer! hrmph.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. I have to agree with it.
And I agree with the idea that torture is a war crime. I've said all along we'd have a better chance at bringing Bush & Cheney up on war crimes charges and getting them convicted than we would at impeaching them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. that my dear is
complete and utter nonsense. I side with John Dean on this, it is congress's DUTY to impeach on behalf of US, their constituents. To do nothing less is the political coward stance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I agree with John Dean as well.
But I also agree with the fact that we have to hold hearings and educate the public on the totality of the crimes committed. That will take some time, and I believe that is for the best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. Perhaps the Democrats should be more prepared to put teeth behind subpoenas
and impeachment, rather than just clicking their heels three times and hoping, "Well, golly gee, maybe this lawless group of fascists will play by the rules even though they've never done so before."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. Cindys new address:
I'm off the KOS - Find me on www.impeachbush.org (0 / 0)
I can see from the comments about my last post, not everyone is paying attention to what I am actually saying and instead interpreting what they want to hear. My posts here aren't for publicity or controversy I use the KOS to get out info and thoughts about critical issues affecting the real world - not the blogosphere.

Since I don't have time explain and dissect every post I make, I am un-registering & removing myself from the DK. If you want to know where to find me, read my blogs at www.impeachbush.org

signing off & tuning out,
Cindy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
43.  Torture "one of the overriding reasons that they should be impeached." YES!
Edited on Sun Jul-15-07 04:24 PM by Peace Patriot
Torture combines all Bush Junta crimes:

The moral, ethical and legal implications and consequences of the Bush Junta's many violations of the laws against torture, are intertwined, and must be seen as a whole, because there is no issue that more clearly defines a civilization than its views on torture, its torture history, and its laws on torture.

The torture that the Bush Junta is guilty of is pre-emptive. No one has to be guilty of anything to be tortured. Many, many innocents have been tortured. And even if they are guilty of something, in the guestimate of the US military, they are prisoners, they are helpless--it is grossly unfair and uncivilized to torture helpless people. And torturing people for some possible piece of knowledge in their heads--for something they MIGHT know--is so gross a violation of the human mind and the human spirit as to be worse than killing them. Torture is tantamount to killing the soul.

Torture is banned in U.S. law and international law for a REASON--it is ALWAYS abused, always. It is a method of state terrorism. It is the tool of tyrants. There is never any "national security" purpose that is served by torture. Only in fantasies--in TV shows, in movies, where story lines are highly contrived--is there ever a stark choice, say, between torturing someone or permitting a nuclear bomb to be exploded in a crowded city. And if ever such a situation did arise in reality, those who would make such a decision--torturing someone to prevent a horrible act of terrorism--must make a DECISION TO BREAK THE LAW *AND* TO TAKE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS. If the stakes are so high, and if they are dedicated to protecting large masses of people, then it should be no problem for them to admit what they did and let their peers judge their motives. OR, go to their graves with the knowledge that they committed a crime to save others. Or...third option--a bad one, but a realistic one--cover it up. There is simply no excuse for publicly declaring--or letting it be known along military channels--that long established laws against torture have been nullified by ONE MAN--Emperor George--thus giving free reign to a CULTURE OF TORTURE. This is the REASON for the laws against torture--that it is ALWAYS abused, always. And this is Bush's worst crime--not just breaking the anti-torture laws, but removing the restraints from all persons with power over prisoners by directives from above that torture IS PERMITTED. This is what led to the ovens of Nazi Germany! To killing people and using their skins for lampshades. To killing masses of people deemed "subhumans" and removing the gold fillings from their corpses' mouths to pay for war. When the highest authorities create a CULTURE OF TORTURE, anything goes.

It is a no-brainer that torture is a crime, and that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales and others have broken the law. But what they have done is far worse than merely breaking a law. They instead broke a dam--the dam of rules of behavior, ethical principles, "family values"--values instilled at home and at church and by progressive education--bonds of human sympathy and codes of honor, as well as the codification of rules of behavior and codes of honor in documents such as the Uniform Code of Military Justice--such that the beast that lay dormant in every human heart, that is contained by bonds of humanity and codes of honor, was released, and any manner of horror could then be inflicted on "subhumans" (in this case Iraqis and other Arabs) because the powers-that-be had nullified all those restraints. This is WHY torture is classified as a WAR CRIME. It goes beyond lawbreaking and is a crime against civilization.

Once again, you are Jack Bauer. You have compelling reason to believe that the person you have in handcuffs knows the location of a nuclear bomb that is about to be detonated over Los Angeles. You take him into a basement and you apply electrodes to his testicles to force him to tell you where the bomb is. All those stupid sheep out there--other Americans--with their stupid "liberal" laws, don't know what you know--that they are all about to die. So what good are their laws, their government, their civil niceties? You don't likely think this through very well. You are acting out of necessity, spurred on by adrenalin, by fear and anger. You are a hero--or possibly better identified as an anti-hero. Millions of people are about to be incinerated, and, to save them, you break one of their "nice" little laws. Of course, it doesn't occur to you that tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers died for those "nice" little laws in WW II. This is a "new" world. This is BushWorld. Everything is black and white, even though it never is, in reality. But take it as given, that this stark, black/white choice could occur. Are you a man? Can you manfully face the consequences of your actions? And what are you fighting to save? Is it just lives? Or is it the complex web of laws, social mores, history, civil order, change by democratic means rather than force, equality, tolerance, legal recourse to settle disputes, creative energy, high ideals and tragic failures, that make up the civilization that those millions of people are living?

If you are a man, if you truly have spine, and if you have any understanding at all, you know that what you are fighting for is a civilization--not just bodies, but ideas--and that, after you have committed your unlawful and inhumane act, to save lives, order must be restored. Lawfulness must be restored. And you must take the consequences. Let a jury decide if you were justified in breaking the law, and are not truly guilty. And if they decide against you, so be it. Like Socrates, you drink the poison, for the sake of civilization.

The answer to these simplistically framed ethical dilemmas is simple: You do what you think is right, as best as you can determine, and you take the consequences. You somehow have the opportunity to kill Hitler, and there you stand, with a gun in your hand. But you are a pacifist. You don't believe in war. You don't believe in killing. What do you do? Personally, I think I would pull the trigger--pacifist though I am (knowing history as I do)--because in that case, it seemed as though the crazed energy of one man was holding that awful killing machine--the Nazis combined with the German army--together. Off him, and it might well collapse. Deep down I know that this no solution. Other Hitlers will arise, and one could well have instantly arisen to replace Adolph. But you do what your fallible human judgment tells you is the best thing to do, in the circumstances. Would the German state have a right to put you on trial and execute you for this crime? Of course not. But if they did so, you would go to your death with something like this on your lips: "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my civilization!"

And if, by some quirk--for history is full of quirks--the "good guys" put you on trial at Nuremberg, and said, "Sorry, you may have shot and killed Hitler and won the war, but you broke the law against assassinating the rich and powerful, and you must pay." In that case, you write a last will and testament in the vein of Kurt Vonnegut, or Joseph Heller, or Albert Camus, and drink the poison. For you would likely believe, at that point, that there was nothing you could do to save this civilization, so you might as well die with dignity, leaving some cautionary words behind.

Murderers and torturers always have justifications. Most often, these justifications are not valid--and would not be deemed to be valid by an honest jury. If we permitted murder and torture to run rampant, because the individual committing them has their "reasons," we would be living, not in a civilization, but rather in Bush's jungle world where every "Jack Bauer" makes up his own rules, decides for himself what is lawful, and, because he is the strongest or has the biggest gun, he wins. He walks away. He is not subject to anybody else's judgment. The "rule of men," not the "rule of laws." Our Founders established the "rule of laws, not men." That is the difference between Thomas Jefferson and George Bush. The one helped to create a civilization. The other has created what Greg Palast has called "an armed madhouse." Violence and lawbreaking are necessary, sometimes--or at least justifiable. What makes a civilization--as opposed to an "armed madhouse"--is that, in a civilization, there are consequences for unlawful acts, and only in a lawful proceeding, in a law-abiding and democratic country, can the justification be judged, and the proper consequence be determined. Anything less is fascist anarchy and barbarianism.

Bush's creation of a "culture of torture"--his directive to torture, and his and his regime's open support of torture--has nearly destroyed our civilization, like no other act they have committed. They ARE the "barbarians at the gate." They have not only nullified laws, they have nullified the bloody sacrifices of millions of altruistic people, down through the ages, into the modern era, and to this day, who have suffered death and worse, in order to create a humane and lawful civilization for future human beings. There are no words for this crime. The best I can do is murder of our very soul as a people--in the same manner as the torture of an individual human being is aimed at killing the mind, the soul, the spirit.

I have been very interested in the story of Hypatia, a 5th century female philosopher and head of the Alexandria Library--a famous mathematician and teacher--who was skinned alive by a mob of Christian monks, at the behest of the "patriarch" of Alexandria, a Catholic bishop name Cyril, just at the very moment when Roman civilization was in its final collapse. By accident, in my research, I found out that flaying--skinning someone alive--during that period was believed to prevent the soul from going to Heaven. Cyril wanted more than her death. He wanted to kill her soul--the spirit of learning, of inquiry, of education, of open-mindedness. The parallels to our civilization today are haunting. George Bush and his puppetmasters seem equally intent upon killing not just people, but their souls, and destroying not just our laws, but the spirit behind our laws: our civilization.

As Al Gore thundered in his speech on torture, "How dare they? How DARE THEY?!" But "dare" they did, and "dare" they are doing--with no consequences. And this now becomes the crime of our Democratic Party leadership--the colossal crime of killing our civilization--because, like the Church/Imperial authorities in Rome, as THEIR civilization lay dying, they did nothing when the head of their main institution of higher learning--a beloved teacher, a Roman citizen--was torn asunder on the streets of a Roman city, by men intent on killing her soul. This was not "Saint" Cyril's last act of perfidy against civilization. Nor will torturing prisoners by George Bush's and Dick Cheney's last act against us, if they are not held accountable.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. To those who say, "What if impeachment fails?" Will the criminals in the White
House not be more emboldened? And to those who are calculating the "political math," and saying things like, "We don't have the votes (in Congress)," or who fear that the war profiteering corporate news monopolies will crucify this 'Democratic' Congress, if they should seek to indict and remove Bush and Cheney...I would say this:

First of all, there are times when "political math" is is too petty a consideration. This is one of these times, if there ever was one. But, simultaneously, it is also a time of unusual political cowardice, with many symptoms of vast spying, blackmail, and intimidation and threats against our leaders--implied by the facts about Bush Junta spying, not quite visible, but, as Hamlet said, "You can nose the corpse as you go up the stairs..."--and of unusual political corruption, in both parties. For instance, IF the leadership in this supposedly Democratic Congress had WANTED an anti-war majority in Congress, or a majority with the spine to indict and remove these murderers, thieves and scofflaws from the White House, they would long ago (2002) have gone public with a full blast of information to the voters, and political activism, to prevent--or undo--the installation, all over the country, of highly insecure and insider riggable voting machines, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, and their first act, as a Congress--after the American people outvoted these machines and gave them the edge--would have been to rescind this Stalinist vote counting system immediately.

What do we find them doing instead? We find them ESCALATING the war that 70+% of the people oppose (and which 56% of the people opposed from the beginning--Feb. '03), larding Bush and Cheney with $100 billion MORE in war funding, and dithering around with minor tinkerings to the Stalinist vote counting system, until it is now 5 months before the primary elections of 2008, that the Bush/Cheney campaign chairs and rightwing 'christian' nutjobs at Diebold and ES&S will be running under a veil of corporate secrecy. There is now not enough time to create transparency in the voting system, and they have no intention of doing so anyway. They have ALL ALONG supported unauditable, unrecountable, SECRET vote tabulation by Bushite corporations.

What can we conclude from this behavior? Really, the only reasonable conclusion is this: That the leadership of our party is not trying to represent us, they are trying to OUTMANEUVER us. They themselves have no objection to this heinous, illegal, Constitution-killing and EXTREMELY expensive war. They not only re-funded it, they just voted to support Bush's set-up of Iran for similar treatment. They have no serious objection to torturing Iraqis and other Muslims. No skin off their noses. Oh, they might fuss about it a bit--a very little bit--but they don't really care about the end of our civilization. And they love, and fully support, private, rightwing Bushite corporations 'counting' all our votes with 'trade secret' code--because that is a really big assist to them in outmaneuvering us--the great, peace-minded American majority--and in creating the illusion that everybody with a 'D' by their name is a "progressive" and is trying to represent the people. "Trade secret" code can (s)elect D's and well as R's, and a "Blue Dog" D (--someone who wants to cut all government spending except the war budget) is actually much more valuable to the war profiteers, at this point, than an "R" (whom most of the people now automatically loathe).

There are many, many creative and lawful ways for Congress to stop this war, and to impeach these criminals, that are being deliberately ignored. The trouble is we have a House of Representatives stacked with "Blue Dog" Democrats, and a dinosauric Senate (only 1/3 of which was up for reelection in 2006). IF we had had transparent elections in 2006, the House would be packed with representatives, ropes and pitchforks in hand, ready to string these criminals up, and the Senate would be TOO FEARFUL for their own political skins to defy them.

This IS the problem. The elections are not just highly riggable--they HAVE BEEN rigged. It is blatantly obvious. "Trade secret" code owned and controlled by Bushite corporations is not the only thing wrong with our election system. But it is the democracy-killer. It is making change IMPOSSIBLE. And it is mind-bogglingly UN-democratic!

So, Pelosi and the other leaders are right. They don't have the votes. What they don't tell you is that they NEVER WANTED the votes, and that they colluded on an election system that would MAKE SURE that they "didn't have the votes."

It is also obvious--it is a no-brainer, it is fundamental to our democracy and our civilization--that Bush and Cheney MUST be held accountable for their crimes and removed from office, just on the facts that we know now, and not even considering the danger of their Armageddon scenario coming down upon our heads. But when you put their Armageddon scenario "on the table," their removal becomes even more critically important. They have the power, right now, to: a) create any terrorist incident that they need, at any time; b) create a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident with Iran, to justify bombing and invading Iran (if they even bother to justify it); and c) declare martial law in the United States, suspend the remaining tatters of our Constitution, suspend the 2008 elections, and stay in power, as outright dictators, in the course of which they can--at their whim--declare any person as an "enemy combatant" with no civil or human rights, round up tens of thousands of Americans and incarcerate them indefinitely, and do anything they want to them--torture, murder--shut down all but government propaganda news media, close the borders, and aim and fire nuclear weapons at any other country that objects.

This is not to say they WILL carry out this scenario. But all the planks of it are in place, and, as with our non-transparent vote counting system, why create the power to easily rig elections and NOT use it? When did the Bush Junta ever see a power of any kind that they HAVEN'T grabbed and used? More likely, with these lapdog 'Democrats," they can accomplish their goals without the trouble they will incur from martial law, etc. And they may even let a 'Democrat' get (s)elected as president, cuz no 'Democrat' that they would permit into the White House is going to do a goddamned thing about their heinous war crimes, unprecedented lawlessness and massive thievery. And such a 'Democrat' WILL use these Bush-pioneered imperial powers to squash us, if we rebel.

So, the only remedy I can see is the long hard road of state/local grass roots movements to restore transparent vote counting--state by state, county by county, all over the country. Save the trials and the impeachment efforts for later. We presently don't have the power, as a people, to impress our will upon our government, no matter how big our majority gets who want the war ended, Bush/Cheney curtailed or removed, and order restored.

Our civilization is hanging in the balance. I think we ARE up to it, as a people. I have been astonished at the American peoples' strong resistance to relentless, 24/7, fascist propaganda and warmongering. But I think we need to dismiss the notion--as least psychologically--that the leadership of the Democratic Party is on our side. The evidence is that they are not. People may want to continue trying to pressure them, for public education purposes, and for the sake of the courageous minority in Congress that is trying to represent the great majority of the people. But every moment spent trying to pressure this Congress, and NOT spent trying to pressure your local registrar of voters, is probably wasted.

It heartens me that Cindy Sheehan is walking across the country in protest of the bipartisan stink in Washington DC. I can't say that it doesn't. She heartened me in Crawford, as well--partly just by her courage and commitment, but also because she pretty much single-handedly broke the anti-war movement barrier in the fascist media. People often do need leaders and inspiration. She provided that, at great cost to herself. But unless she is carrying a sign that says "Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!," or something similar, "Handcounted paper ballots NOW!," she will fail to pinpoint the problem--the deliberate, systematic disenfranchisement of the American people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. "We can't go to war with Germany or Japan because we might lose." FDR Address to Congress, 12-8-41
:evilfrown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
51.  . . .
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
52. It's Worse: Failure to Report and Act to Stop Torture...
... is a war crime in itself for gov't officials. This is a burden passed to the new Dem majority on Jan. 3rd.

Impeachment on a single charge of torture/war crimes would force GOP Senators to vote up or down on their own personal status as war criminals.

Think 30-plus of them are that far gone? I hope not.

But I really think we need to find out.

---
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC