A point of view from a parent with 3 kids --- about screaming kids in public places.

[trumad]

I've read with amusement the last couple of days the threads that have been discussing babies who simply can't keep it quite in places that uhhh you wish they were quite in. Restaurants, Movies, Airplanes, etc.

I have 3 kids-- 13--12 and 10. As you can see by their ages, they're pretty close together in age, hence at one time, I had to deal with 3 infants at one time. Times have changed because now instead of screaming, they argue if they can have a soft drink, or why a 10 dollar spending limit is not enough.

Here's the thing... I understand both sides of the debate. As a parent who has had a screaming kid or two in public places, I know how difficult it can be. I used every trick in the book to calm them down but sometimes to no avail. And here's what I did different that some of the parents I see today. I removed my kid(s)from the place he or she was pitching a fit in. I was always aware of those around me and I had a very fast trigger if the kid got out of hand. Usually the kid would calm down and I'd try again. Sometimes that didn't work and we'd get our food to go.

I've read several comments that said they scream because of a lack of discipline. LOL--- Well I say Bullshit to that. Babies---Infants--- are just that--- Babies and Infants. They can be pretty unpredictable. That's life. NOW--- if the screamer was a 3 year old who was pitching a fit... well--- that's a bit different. They're old enough to know about consequences for their behavior.

Here's the other side of the coin. There are parents out there who could care less that they are inconveniencing others around them. AND that bugs the shit out of me. Even as a trained parent of ex-screaming kids,--- I hate to hear screaming kids in public places. I mean for God sakes, God made a kids scream with that pitch for a reason--- to get attention. It's just not pleasant on the ears. My patience with a screaming kid is just a bit better than someone without kids cause I've been through it--- but it aint that much better.

Nothing bugs me more than to be sitting in a movie or a restaurant and hear a screaming kid with parents who are oblivious to the racket the kid is making. IT aint the kid that's bugging me--- it's the God Damn inconsiderate parent! If I hear a screaming kid and see a parent who's trying to do something about it--- and eventually removes the kid---well I think... Good Parent. If I hear a screaming kid and the parents do nothing---- I think---Bad Parent--Bad Citizen...

It's really that simple.

Now airplanes. That's a whole different can of worms.

Face it--- Infants and Babies are going to fly. I do not see airlines losing revenue because some are upset over a screaming baby. So what to do. Uhhhh nothing really.

I flew Southwest the other day and ALMOST sat behind a screaming baby. Southwest allows you to pick your own seat--- so when I boarded, I picked my seat only to realize that a baby was in the row in front of me. I SAID SHIT--- BABY! I immediately got out of that row and sat several rows back from that baby. AND guess what? That baby cried from Nashville to Orlando. At one point the frustrated mother angrily screamed at the baby...STOP IT! The baby didn't stop. Oh well...

Maybe the airlines ought to have baby sections at the rear or front of the planes AND those who sit next to the baby section can buy cheaper tickets for the inconvenience. Maybe the airlines can provide better headphones to customers or even ear plugs. Or maybe they can lock the kids in the cargo hold--- (do I have to do a wink emoticon for that one?)

Like I said--- I get both points of view. I'm a little more sympathetic because I've been through it--- BUT I also know that there are parents out there who are doing their best to ruin it for parents who give a shit.

[King Coal]

1. Flying can really hurt their ears.

[trumad]

3. Indeed it can

That's why I cross my fingers on take-off. Some baby's have no problem with it... Others... they don't like it.

[Donnachaidh]

9. But that can be handled to calm them down

Infants still on a bottle -- be sure to have two ready. One for take-off, and one for landing (if a long flight). My stepmom was a flight attendant, and she told me to do this, and it worked.

[trumad]

16. That's what we did...

something to suck on to pop those ears. We never had a problem with our kids, ---we were lucky.

[Donnachaidh]

18. it's pretty amazing, isn't it?

There was another Mom on the flight and her little one was screaming. I leaned over and told her to try a bottle, and he calmed right down.

[AlCzervik]

22. my ears hurt on take off. Crying is about the only way a baby can communicate.

whenever i hear a baby cry it always makes me sad, they're either hungy, sick, hurt, in need of a diaper change or just tired.

[trumad]

26. Yeah---they want something.

I always said that if a babies cry sounded like Johnny Mathis, they wouldn't get shit.

[here_is_to_hope]

88. Lol, good one! n/t

[roamer65]

41. Yup, that's why babies are way different than a 5 yr olds temper tantrum.

Their only way to communicate discomfort is to cry. That's why I have oodles of tolerance for crying babies but almost zero on a older child's tantrum over candy in a checkout line.

[pitohui]

64. yes but parents w. small screaming children don't care about their child's pain

they simply. do. not. care.

that is what makes it so laughable that we are supposed to pretend these moms give a care about their kids, they give a care about NOTHING except their own self importance, their convenience, and their need to have all attention centered on THEM

the child is not a real person in their eyes, merely an accessory that not all can afford, an accessory far more costly than any rolex watch or coach bag

so what if the child is in pain, at an age where she won't understand why, she won't remember it and any subconscious anger about being putt in pain will no doubt be directed elsewhere rather than at mom anyway, such parents count on baby's lack of memories

[Katherine Brengle]

80. wtf?

Now mothers don't care about their children?

Where the hell did that come from?

The last thing I want is people staring at ME because my kid is out of control. It's not a whole lot of fun.

Get a clue.

[gollygee]

82. Where did that come from?

Moms don't care about their kids? Children aren't real people - only accessories? Huh? What situation is this in response to?

[pitohui]

97. try reading the thread, pay attention and you might know what is going on

most people who fly w. small children obviously as a practical matter do not care that their baby's ears are GUARANTEED to experience pressure changes and that a baby is too young to understand why this is happening to them

they know the baby will have ear pain, they simply do NOT care because it might intrude on their vacation and take a bit longer to where they were going if they had to care about baby's pain

really, if you cared about your baby's pain or hearing, why on earth would you fly w. an infant unless it was an absolute emergency?

we still do have automobiles in this country, believe it or not!

[oregonjen]

104. Cars can fly across the ocean?

Years ago, when I was living in a foreign country, I gave birth to my first child. I flew back to Oregon to introduce her to my family. When I flew, I breastfed both at take-off and landing and at other times during the flight to feed and comfort her. Just because I flew doesn't mean I didn't care about my baby. Not everyone who flies is on vacation and cars don't swim or fly!

[gollygee]

105. A baby's ears are not guaranteed to hurt

I nursed my daughter during take-off and landing and she was fine. Other options are bottles, pacifiers, something to eat, etc. I imagine it probably hurts more for babies who have problems with their ears, like frequent ear infections.

The first time my daughter's ears seemed to hurt her was this year (she's 5) and I explained what was happening and gave her something to eat to help it.

[Clark2008]

125. I never flew with an infant, but my son's first flight was when

he was 3. We took gum and he thought that was really, really GREAT (he rarely got sweets of ANY kind).

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Did you see your kids as fashion accessories?

... or are you just engaging in a little hurtful, judgmental stereotyping and bigotry because you've never had children and thus lack any practical experience in the matter?

Pick door #1 or door #2.

[eppur_se_muova]

85. Simple cure -- MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING.

Well, someone has to be the voice of reason. :)

[AwakeAtLast]

134. Flying still hurts my ears

So I can imagine how bad it is for those ears that haven't fully grown yet. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Very well stated.

I would add, just because someone doesn't want dinner ruined by inconsiderate parents, doesn't mean s/he is a "baby hater" and thinks all babies should be placed into stasis until the age of 18.

[wryter2000]

4. As a non-parent

I thank you for your common sense. You can't expect an infant to "behave." But, parents who do nothing are a huge part of the problem.

The one that gets me is the kid pulling on the parent's clothing saying, "Mommy, mommy, mommy" or "daddy, daddy, daddy" over and over with no answer from the parent. They're not screaming or crying. They want to talk to their parent and are being ignored. I find that incredibly rude to the child and to me.

[Exultant Democracy]

With the exception of Movies (where I want to hear) or airplanes

(where I can't get away) screaming kids don't bug me. When I do notice them I generally just feel bad for the parents.

[Silent3]

123. Actually, as much as I don't like to hear kids scream...

...at least on an airplane the engine noise tends to drown out their noise, unless you're really close.

And now I have noise-canceling headphones too. :)

If a parent isn't just sitting there obliviously, like the world should be honored to hear their child's shrieking, and doing the best they can, I have sympathy for them. And on an airplane, there's probably not a whole lot they can do most of the time.

[Mandate My Ass]

5. great post

I was gone all weekend, it's taken me the better part of 30 minutes to see what all the brouhaha was about.

As a mom of one, I had it a great deal easier. But one thing my kid always knew from a very early age, he got one chance to zip his lip in public, if not, he got dragged home and sent to his room. Not negotiable, ever.

Airplanes, that's a different story. He never flew til he was 9 so I never faced that dilemma. I'm not sure how much a parent can control it with younger kids, when they're miserable, they cry. However, now I always bring my disc man just in case. :shrug:

[cynatnite]

6. I hate screaming kids in public...

I'm not talking about infants. Kids in the age range of two years old up to ten or so. I totally hate seeing and hearing kids screaming and throwing tantrums in public. It pisses me off.

I have three kids and only one kid did something close to that in a grocery store. I stopped shopping and took her out of the store. Rather than subject the public to my kid I preferred to take care of the matter privately. We're not spankers so that form of discipline was not necessary. She was three years old at the time and time-out in the corner resolved the matter.

In my family, we were brought up to behave properyly in public. It was a zero tolerance policy that I've passed on to my children.

[trumad]

12. I agree...

My daughter did it once in a grocery store... She laid on the floor and started to pitch a fit. We simply walked off. She looked around and went whoops...they're gone. She came after us and never did it again.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Spot on! And I don't think anyone here who has had problems with kids feels any different.

I think we're all far more frustrated with the parent who doesn't fucking care than we are with the children themselves.

Sadly, a lot of the "NOT MY PRECIOUS FUCKING CHILD!!!!!!" or "THAT BABY IS GONNA TAKE CARE OF YOU IN YOUR DOTAGE!!!!!!!!!!" asinine apologists here can't see beyond the haze of their emotion-fueled hateful adrenaline frenzy to realize that few, if any, people here actually hate children or want them banned - but that many of us despise parents who don't give a shit.

It's sad that the knee-jerk emotionalists have to ruin every discussion of this that comes up.

[Midlodemocrat]

15. Well, to be fair, Rabrrrrrr

A lot of the knee-jerk from parents was in response to some pretty hateful posts.

Calling a baby a 'bag of poo' or a 'dirty brat' doesn't do much for your argument. Telling people not to 'breed' is just shit.

Most parents here feel the way that trumad does. My own kids are well behaved and have always been because they've been taught to be. WHen they were little, we didn't go out to restaurants with them because they couldn't sit still past the initial pouring of the first glass of iced tea.

That being said, I went out to dinner with a friend the other night to my favorite restaurant and there was a lovely young couple with a baby who was behaving nicely. Until the food came. (seems to be a trend with little ones)

She started acting up, fussing, wanting to go, you get the drift. This poor couple practically gulped down their food, and were apologizing profusely to my friend and me, even though we kept insisting we didn't care.

Having been there, I felt for them. And, I don't know the circumstances. Were they eating out because one of them had been out of town for several weeks? Or were they traveling? Or were they househunting for a relocation?

Having been in all three of those situations with small kids, I only feel empathy.

[MsRedacted]

8. I was in a plane last month with 18mo delightful twins. We had a bumpy flight.

One of them got very fussy. Mom couldn't get up to walk her. Mom couldn't even up to change her.

I never complained. The mom did the best she could. I felt bad for all of them (mom, dad, and twins).

I've never had kids, but I know how a slightest boom (if it sounds like fireworks) can set one of my dogs off. He's a good gentle dog and will let my friends baby put her hand in his mouth and touch his tongue and not flinch.\

But he gets upset. He's not an adult human -- and I don't expect him to always act like one.

Why should I ask a baby to act like one -- and why should I blame a parent if a baby acts like . ..well a baby.

[DBoon]

10. Babies aren't so bad

I've found they often sleep during long flights, and might cry on descent due to pressure issues

The toddlers I have no patience for. They can keep going and going.

Also, there is something about an infant's cry that makes me want to say "what's wrong sweetie". It is a very basic exoression of helpless need

A toddler's crying inspires "shut up you brat". A toddler's crying is "me me me".

[Zookeeper]

56. Well, the young toddler's "me me me" is just a more...

advanced version of a baby crying. It's a developmental phase where they are becoming (painfully) aware that they are not the center of the universe and are learning about boundaries. It's not always pretty, but it's necessary and I'd rather deal with a toddler who is working through that stage than an adult who never successfully completed it and still thinks everything is about him/her.

I start becoming less tolerant when kids reach four or five years old, but even then, if they are rude or mean, it's likely because their parents haven't bothered to teach them not to be.

[DBoon]

62. it is still very difficult to take

not as bad as a 7 year old boy kicking the back of your seat, or having a life insurance salesman in the seat next to you.

[Zookeeper]

68. "Seven year old boy kicking your seat"

Yeah, that drives me up the wall and makes me want to scream at the parents who don't bother to teach the kid some boundaries. My daughter was in her high school play and I ended up seated behind a two parents who were using the play as a birthday party activity for their young child and friends. To entertain a fussy younger sibling, the dad handed her an eyeglass class that loudly snapped every time it opened and closed. And they talked through the first half. I finally moved during intermission.

Pushy salesmen? See my previous post about toddlers who didn't successfully navigate that developmental phase. ;)

[Demobrat]

11. I was on a flight once

where a lady who boarded the plane with an infant passed out earplugs to the people around her. So at least you knew she was trying to be considerate. The kid cried - and not one person even gave her a dirty look. Go figure.

[trumad]

13. Considerate parents are obvious

because they go out of their way to apologize and do what is best.

[firefox_fan]

114. I always wear earplugs on the plane!

...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. I give the flight attendant the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously, the flight attendent, being a flight attendent, knows a thing or two about obnoxious babies on airplanes. Therefore, I assume that this kid must have been doing something particularly awful to get kicked off.

[trumad]

17. Thing is---the kid is still qualified as a baby at 18 months old

I purposely didn't bring that case up because I'm hoping this thread doesn't become a flame fest.

[MsRedacted]

49. You haven't met my sister-in-law. She's a flight attendant. And she . . .not in polite company

Well, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if she drop kicked someone out of a plane just for sport.

[AlCzervik]

127. has the media talked to anyone else that was the plane? All we have gotten is one

side, i'd like to hear from some of the other people on that plane.

[cally]

19. My trip from hell and why I'm always sympathetic to parents

About 20 years ago my Mom got sick and asked me to help her out. She had my then 5 year old niece visiting and needed someone to fly with her home. I was at home with my 3 month old so I saw it as a great opportunity to fly to Alaska and visit my sister and her family. My niece chattered for 6 hours the entire flight up. I was exhausted when I arrived and thought to myself that I would never have a child like that. :eyes:

So after an enjoyable visit, I board a plane with my 3 month old for home. She cried for 6 hours straight. There was nothing I could do to calm her down and I tried everything. I feel very sorry for anyone on that plane but I couldn't do anything. She had slept on the way up and I expected her to sleep on the way back. She wasn't sick, she wasn't overly tired, hungry, overstimulated. Believe me, I heard that from many on the plane. She finally fell asleep as I was waiting for my luggage at the end of the trip.

[trumad]

20. Like I said---there's no science to the predictability of a baby.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Plane -> Sympathy for parent, largely because they have little choice, typically....

... Restaurants, movies etc. -> Not a lick of sympathy - it was their free decision to share the lil bundle of joy with the rest of us.

Grocery store -> Somewhere in between, but more on the sympathy side.

[trumad]

23. Right------

and if that bundle of joy acts up, remove the bundle of joy.

[Midlodemocrat]

25. Movies I'll buy, but not restaurants.

When traveling sometimes you HAVE to eat in a restaurant which you might not normally choose for your kids. Especially in unfamiliar areas.

I didn't like to feed my kids fast food, so we would pick something that looked reasonably priced and quiet. It almost universally worked out.

[BlooInBloo]

34. You're talking about an atypical situation.

[Midlodemocrat]

38. My point is, I don't know WHY they are eating out

and prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. It won't kill me.

[pitohui]

65. ever heard of drive-ins?

no reason for someone w. screaming brats to go inside a public restaurant, ever

[Midlodemocrat]

86. I KNOW. Because all kids are screaming brats.

Dear God. Do you ever have anything nice to say about anyone?

And I'm not feeding my kids crap to pacify the likes of you. Deal.

[pitohui]

100. so the excuse has changed, has it?

the original excuse for why a screaming brat might be in a restaurant is because the people are from out of town and must eat

now it's that the parents in question are too snotty to buy food at the drive-thru window, even though it's exactly the same food?

[Midlodemocrat]

102. LOL.

I don't feed my kids crap food, never have. And, until recently there weren't drive ins for restaurants like Outback.

You really need to lighten up. You have no idea why people eat in restaurants and are judging them for something they might not be able to control.

And, I know. You're going to retort that that's all you see, babies in restaurants crying, bad parents, blah, blah, blah.

Maybe it's just your negative view of things that is causing you to see things the way you do. Just sayin'.

[here_is_to_hope]

94. Wow, glad to know you were born an

adult.
Eeeesshhhh.

[northofdenali]

99. I agree about travelling with kids/restaurants; however

when my daughter was small, I always chose a "family" restaurant, never one of the nicer places where you'd expect mostly adults. And, when she acted up, it was back to the car, food or not. Eventually, just the "mommy look" worked for me, but all kids are different.

On that note, and to add to the flamefest - it's the noisy, rambunctious, impolite, electronically-enhanced teenagers that really piss me off.

[Midlodemocrat]

103. They're far worse than small kids who can't control themselves.

And choosing family type restaurants is obviously the correct thing to do, but what if you are traveling in an area which is unfamiliar?

When we moved here, I didn't recognize a single name of a restaurant, of course this was 16 years ago and things have changed a lot.

During our house hunting trip, we ate in places that appeared to be quiet, unassuming and clean.

Our daughter never made a peep, but I'm sure people were pissed off that she was even there.

[gollygee]

106. We were at a fancy hotel this spring

and we asked the concierge for a recommendation for a restaurant that wasn't awful but that would be appropriate for children.

One time we found the only place close enough was a bad fit with the kid in tow, but generally there's something. Luckily she was hungry and just ate that night.

But generally I think you can find a family-appropriate restaurant just about anywhere that has decent food - I agree with that - and I can't have fun at a nice place if I'm worried about my daughter bothering people. She's a sweetie but even sweeties have their off days.

[BlooInBloo]

120. Agree with all you said in your higher-resolution-than-mine remarks.

[firefox_fan]

113. Grocery Store is acceptable..

I go there to buy something, not to enjoy the experience.

[Lex]

24. Thanks for saying it isn't just the "childless" who don't like screaming kids

or their inconsiderate parents, if that is the case in a given situation.

[trumad]

27. Take a poll... a screaming kid sucks.

[mainer]

28. Flight Attendants have changed. They used to be GREAT with kids

I think they're just too darn overworked. I once flew from Honolulu to L.A. with two kids under two, and the flight attendants volunteered to carry my younger son up and down the aisle, rocking him. They took turns doing it and cooing at him. He wasn't even causing a fuss, just making baby noises. They saw I had my hands full, and they were so kind to me. It helped that all of those FA's were middle-aged and had raised kids of their own, so they understood what parents go through on a plane flight. Maybe it also helped that they were Hawaiian/Asian FA's and people in Hawaii LOVE their keikis (children.)

Can you imagine a FA doing that nowadays?

[cynatnite]

33. Years ago when I flew with two of my kids...one was six months old...

the flight attendants were great. They talked with the older one, gave her a coloring book and colors, and were wonderful with her. They checked on the baby to make sure she was handling the flight okay.

It's been a while since we've flown anywhere and to hear some of the stories these days makes me want to stick to cars. I'd rather drive cross-country than fly.

[trumad]

35. I never had a prob with flight attendants.

I'm sure that most are still terrific.

[TahitiNut]

29. I think uncontrollable kids should be placed in the hold with the pets.

:evilgrin: (... and their inconsiderate parents with them.)


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. You've got the right attitude

It's the parents' responsibility to teach their children to behave in public. Kids will go off, especially if they're over-tired, but it's the parents' reaction that determines whether most people in the surrounding area will react positively or negatively.

A couple with two little girls once joined a church that I formerly attended. Ages approximately 4 and 6, these were two of the most out-of-control little creatures you ever saw. They would run up and down the aisles, chasing each other and squealing during the service. During coffee hour, they would attack the dessert table and scoop up handfuls of cookies, leaving most of them with one or two bites out of them scattered around the social hall.

The parents were apologetic, and the father even said to me, "You ought to have gates on the pews like in old colonial churches."

And I thought, but didn't say, "You've got two parents and two children. One of you holds on to each of them. What's so hard about that?"

Interestingly enough, the harshest critics of these parents were not the childless people like myself but the older women who had raised children of their own.

In fact, one Sunday, the family showed up with Grandma in tow, and Grandma was visibly appalled. (I was sitting up front with the choir, so I could see her face.)

Things changed after Grandma's visit. The kids remained squirrely, but they no longer ran up and down the aisles.

[AzDar]

31. ..And you know what, Trumad? A 'Family Section' on a plane might not be a bad idea!

[trumad]

32. Hell---they had smoking sections

which were laughable cause those in front and behind still got gassed. It would be the same for the kid section... the screams would filter back and forth.... so you sell those rows cheaper tickets.

[TahitiNut]

52. There you go!! Do the same thing!

Ban kids AND smoking on airplanes!! :rofl: :rofl:

[trumad]

54. and nuts

;-)

[TahitiNut]

55. Hey! There's a REASON that Stork Airlines flys one-seaters!

:rofl:

[Lisa]

50. seconded! One of our local cinemas also has a "baby night" ...

Parents who are dying to get out of the house and see a first-run movie with a babe-in-arms can do so. They have a supervised play area outside for any older children who might get bored (or for whom the movie is maybe not appropriate).

A bonus is that the parents get to socialize (and vent) with other parents, and nobody minds if you get up in the middle of the film and dash off to change a diaper or something, because people are going in and out all the time.

I realize that it probably wouldn't be economically feasible to have an "all-families flight" on a regular basis, but having a dedicated section of the plane might just work!

I don't have any children, myself, but I think the OP made a lot of great points. Getting cross with very young children isn't productive and just puts everyone in a bad mood. And I know that when the parents are in a situation where they're embarrassed and miserable because they think everyone's hostile, the stress on them goes up, so they might not be able to make good decisions either. (Had a situation in one of my classes where a young single mom was bringing in her infant because she couldn't afford child care ... I changed my lecture style to allow more frequent breaks, she made sure she got a seat where a sudden exit wouldn't disrupt her classmates, and we managed to head off a situation where the other students (or the instructor!) got upset.)

[Hepburn]

36. K&R....great OP!

I have to totally agree: Things are different now from when my son was a wee one back in the 1970s. I was out the other night...and all of us present were over the age of 50 years...and we could not believe how this one mother and father appeared to be totally oblivious to how obnoxious their toddler was being. They carried on a conversation, shouted over his highchair metal tray banging with a spoon, his screams for attention and ignored his food throwing tantrums, etc. We are talking monster child of the first order IMO.

My son is now in his 30s and when he was that age (about 30 years ago), I would NOT have subjected a room full of people to that kind of conduct for one second....let alone for how long this went on. He would have been removed from the area and if I could not settle him down...doggie bags would have been requested and my husband and I would have left.

One of the things I have noticed lately is that some parents have their kids out for a meal at times that appear to me to be way past dinner and bed time for toddlers. The children look past being hungry, over tired and wound-up to the max. And, of course, they are given cookies ~~ full of sugar ~~ to snack on until their dinner (which arrives around 9:00 PM) gets to them.

I tend to avoid places ~~ particularly restaurants ~~ which seem to have a lot of children. I am too old and too tired to put up with conduct like we saw the other evening. Blood curdling screams with coffee and dessert are NOT on my menu anymore..and never really were.

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. It's all part of the general social trend toward saying "to hell with etiquette, I do what I want!"

"I'm paying for this dinner, I can be as loud as I want!"

"I paid for this movie ticket, I can talk if I want to!"

"I paid for this car, I'll drive it where I want!!"

"It's my child - how dare you make requirements of it! Why don't you leave if you can't take the noise?"

"It's my stereo, I'll play it as loud as I want!"

and so on.

[Hepburn]

45. You know....

...I think you hit the nail on the head on this ~~ unfortunately. People have become so much more inconsiderate of others over the years. I, too, have seen what you listed. Sad, huh?

[Maddy McCall]

46. You are absolutely right.

It IS a trend. It's the very reason that I'd rather wait for a movie to come out on DVD rather than sit in a theatre with inconsiderate assholes--and not all of them are parents of small children. I'm talking about adults who:

1) talk on their cellphone on SPEAKER MODE. :grr:
2) dip tobacco in the theatre while sitting next to me, and demand the armrest cupholder for the tobacco cup.
3) talk incessantly throughout the movie.

Or let's talk about restaurants, where adults:

1) make fun of the cultural background of the staff (say, at a Thai restaurant, they sit there joking "Ching chang chong ching" to each other) or talk loudly about politics or make racist comments, as if daring someone to say "shut up" to them.
2) allow their child to turn around in their booth and attempt to crawl over into mine, without so much as "Janie, dear, turn around."
3) interfere with others' dining by having loud discussions of unsavory topics, almost as if they hope others hear them.

I could go on and on. Somewhere parents quit doing their jobs with their children. And that lack of parenting has resulted in spoiled, rude adults who are now raising another generation of spoiled, rude children.

[RC Quake]

109. Wow! Sounds like you know my husband.

Which is why I can dress him up but can't take him out. We haven't been to a movie in over 10 years and a restaurant in over 3 years specifically because he can't take the rude behavior of society in general (and which he exhibits himself without acknowledging it) :eyes:

[Gormy Cuss]

37. Any time one is on a plane headed to Orlando, it's a miracle if there NO screaming kids.

I was on a plane scheduled to fly from Boston to Orlando in February (school vacation week) and the passenger mix was about half business, half leisure travelers. There was a blinding snowstorm and our plane was held until the storm had susbsided a bit. We were on a full plane sitting on the ground for an hour and a half. The only amusement was the periodic return of the de-icing equipment outside. The plane was unnaturally quiet --I think because most of the adults were second guessing their choice to board with the whiteout conditions. All of a sudden a small child started belting out "It's a Small World." The plane erupted in laughter. That's my favorite baby-on-a-plane story.

I've flown a lot in my life, with about 80% of the trips on business. As a woman flying alone it seemed that I had "easy baby mark" stamped on my back -- I had many people flying with lap babies or toddlers assigned to my row. Yes, sometimes it was utterly annoying because the child wouldn't be quiet or sit still. Most of the time, it was no big deal.

[roamer65]

43. Disney World Express, eh?

:rofl:

[JCMach1]

40. Kids will scream naturally from time to time... I find American kids on the avg.

SCREAM MORE, because parents pay too much attention to this because society is sooo offended by it... for the little kids it becomes an attention getting behavior...

you get a lovely negative reinforcement loop...



kid screams
Society screams at mom to shut the kid up
mom screams
kid likes the extra attention
repeat

[Lisa]

53. attention-getting for them, plus it exasperates and embarrasses the parents

Kids figure out pretty soon how they can "get back" at mom or dad for not listening to them, or not buying them something they want at the store, etc.

As an earlier poster pointed out, sometimes this may be justifiable (parent is deliberately ignoring a reasonable request to go to the bathroom, or sit down because they've been on their feet for a long time). But other times ...

Several years ago I went to a friend's wedding in a small Prairie town. I came a few days early to help her get organized, and one of the things they asked me to do was escort her young nieces to the local department store, to pick up a few small items. Well, the golden-haired angelic kiddies began to beg me for all kinds of stuff when we walked in the door -- understandable because stores have all the latest psychological tricks to use on shoppers, and kids (and grownups) who haven't been "ad-proofed" yet can fall for them. So I stopped in the middle of the store, and showed the kids exactly how much money I had, and our shopping list -- and explained that there just wouldn't be enough cash for what they wanted.

The older girl was stunned. Nobody had ever explained basic household economics to her -- also, maybe she was a bit scornful that I was a grownup who didn't have lots of money. (Unfortunately her parents had already started conditioning her to believe that you measure people's worth by how much dough they fling around.) But she was smart enough to realize that begging and pleading just wouldn't work if I didn't have the money to begin with. Don't know whether I got any respect for my honesty (in public, no less, since I wanted to show her that people shouldn't be ashamed of not being wealthy), but I sure feel better about it than if I'd caved in!

Her younger sister wasn't really able to reason yet, so she started pitching a fit. I just said, "Okay, on to the sewing department -- coming?", and merrily left her with her mouth open. When she saw that her act wasn't bothering me (hey, not my kids and I would never see them again anyway!), she shut up and followed along behind. What helped was seeing some people her family knew, smirking at her in the aisle (small town, like I mentioned).

I didn't tell the parents, but I did tell my friend (and figured that she could pass it on to them after the wedding excitement subsided, if she felt it would be helpful).

[Zookeeper]

58. I think you're right.

I remember being extremely tense and concerned on flights with my kids when they were babies and toddlers that they would "bother" someone, even when they were in pain from the pressure on their ears or bored or restless. Although, I didn't scream at them, I doubt that my tension helped them feel safer or more relaxed.

[JCMach1]

129. Exactly, one things young kids do learn quickly is how to push

emotional buttons to get attention from parents. It's a simple evolutionary survival tool.

[LisaM]

42. Bottles for babies, and blow their noses a lot too.

Once there was a screaming baby in front of me and the mother was one of those I-don't-care kind of people. I FINALLY handed her a Kleenex and said maybe he'd be more comfortable if he blew his nose. He did, and he stopped crying, and the man next to me thanked me profusely. I don't understand why they don't blow their noses more often. Heck, I do this myself on planes to clear my ears.

[H2O Man]

44. The Wumberlog

(or The Magic Dog)

While all the tow was sleepy
Crept a little boy from bed
To fained the wondrous peoble
Wot lived when they were dead.

He packed a little voucher
For his dinner 'neath a tree.
'Perhumps a tiny dwarf or two
Would share abite with me?' ...

He met him friendly magic dog
All black and curlew too,
Wot flew him fast in second class
To do wot he must do.

I'll leave now sir,' said the dog,
'But just before I go
I must advise you,' said his friend
'This boat no careflee row.' ...

'How did you get here curlew friends?'
The boy said all a maze.
'The same way you did, in a boat,'
The dog yelled through the haze.

'Where are all the peoble, please,
Wot live when they are dead?
I'd like to see them if I may
Before I'm back in bed.' ....

by John Lennon; A Spaniard in the Works

[Betsy Ross]

47. I also can't stand

parents screaming at their children in public. But I can't stand to hear anyone in a fight.

[Klukie]

48. IMO this post ends the debate.

[Progressive_In_NC]

51. Part of it is parental guilt too, kids spend 60 hours a week in school/daycare/commute now

So the parents let them misbehave the little bit of time they do get to spend with them. Too, when someone else is socializing your kids 50 hours a week, you aren't always prepared to deal with it.

My wife is at home with my 6 and 3 year old and we enforce pretty formal rules of behavior on them. They are generally well tempered, and act well in restaurants, on planes, in museums etc. Our kids know we will pay the bill and leave at the drink portion of the meal if they can't behave.

My neighbor (because of guilt) refuses to make her bratty 6 year old respect anyone's conversation, have a bed time, apologize when he hits or bites (yep he's six and still doing that stuff), or breaks one of my kids' toys and then lies about it. He picks the restaurants (they live at Burger King and CiCi's Pizza because he won't eat anything else) and the movies, etc. etc.

At his birthday party, we discovered that most of his friends from his daycare behave the same, and it was a miserable two hour experience for our son that he could imagine since behavior like that is not tolerated at our house and amongst our children's other friends as well.

He leaves for school at 7 am, goes to daycare and comes home around 6:45 pm with his mom (the kid has to be exhausted all the time to be honest as that is a ton of stimulation). Dad is working two jobs so he's never home. When she has a day off, she takes them to daycare so she can get home stuff done. They have a two and a half year old who is following in his footsteps.

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out as these kids grow up.

[cgrindley]

57. There's never a good reason to travel with a baby

Babies should be kept at home.

[trumad]

59. Why?

[Zookeeper]

61. Umm...Grandpa's on the opposite coast and is too sick...

to travel, but would like to see his only grandchild?

You really can't think of a "good" reason to travel with a baby?

[cgrindley]

136. Mine, too

and we're not making any plans to go and see him after the birth. Why should I inconvenience 200 other people just to feed my own family's vanity?

[Ms. Toad]

78. Nonsense.

When my daughter was an infant, I had a number of obligations that required travel. Until she was 9 months old my daughter had no other source of nutrition and, as I recall, we took two plane trips in that time frame. My life did not end (nor was I sentenced to house arrest) just because I had a child - and since she required me for nutrition she either came with me or she starved.

[Katherine Brengle]

81. Ugh.

As a mother, I can tell you that:

Yes, sometimes there are reasons to travel with a baby. And while I have always made every effort to control my child in public and make life easier for everyone around us, I make no apologies for taking her places. Kids can't stay cooped up all day every day.

[gollygee]

83. There are tons of good reasons to travel with babies

People like to see their families.

[jberryhill]

90. Go join a species that needs you

I'm glad this woman decided to travel with her baby.

[Midlodemocrat]

91. Shit!! I guess when my brother and sister-in-law relocated back

to the states after having their first, they should have left him there!

*smacks forehead* :eyes:

[Lars39]

118. Aren't you expecting?

[cgrindley]

135. Yeah

and we won't be traveling with an infant to see my aged parents. If they want to see the baby, they can come here.

[AspenRose]

124. Are you serious?

Um, I was born overseas. I was on my way "home" as an infant. Can't drive from Germany to the United States, last I checked.

PS-Thanks for the common-sense post, Trumad. Spot on. :thumbsup: I can understand not standing inconsiderate parents (I can't either) but I don't understand the vitriol directed at BABIES, for being BABIES.

[kimmylavin]

60. When I was younger...

... my sisters and I used to ask our parents why they rarely took us out - and why we never flew anywhere - until we were all in middle school.

As adults now, we realize that our parents were just being polite! :)

Excellent post, thanks for that!

[Zookeeper]

66. My oldest child's first word was "restaurant"

followed by "please" and "thank you." (At least after "momma" and "dada.")

I have three kids who have always been very well-behaved in public, because we made it clear from the beginning that courtesy is very important. They could be wild at home, but in public they always received compliments on their polite behavior.

Even now, my surly-at-home teenage son, is never fails to say "please" and "thank you" to store clerks and waitpeople.

It's good that your parents were so conscientious, but I don't think it's necessary to keep kids at home until middle-school, as long as parents are willing to take the time to "civilize" them. Actually, the middle-school years were the time that I least liked taking them out to restaurants, just because they had decided they were really witty and drove me nuts. :P

[kimmylavin]

69. We went out...

But to "kid" places - where EVERY kid there was screaming and running around. :)
Nothing wrong with being a kid!
(Plus there was a six year difference between the oldest and youngest...)

But, oh goodness, did we learn "please" and "thank you."
And it was a big deal - which we treated as such - when we were finally allowed to go to "grown-up" places with Mom and Dad! :)

[pitohui]

63. you just don't get it, do you?

you don't get to scream thru an airliner security announcement, it is not a question of how old you are, no one of ANY age gets to "babble" through the safety announcement, and no doubt the person who can't control their noise always has a good reason (psychotic break, incipient alzheimers, who knows?) but the aircraft should not take off if there are persons aboard who can't comply w. the safety regulations because in event of a true emergency this person will still be out of control greatly increasing the threat to EVERYONE on board

this mom thinks her brat is special and doesn't have to follow the rules we ALL have to follow, she was properly removed from the flight

it is as simple or complex as that

how swell for you that on your southwest flight you were able to move away from the screaming baby and force someone else to listen to the screams, that's really a little bit special too, isn't it?

if the child is not of an age, if the adult is not of an age, where they can keep from "vocalizing" during a safety announcement, imagine the joy and chaos they'll create during an actual emergency, sorry, the flight attendant is there for the safety of all

screaming in movies and restaurants is rude or at best a police matter if the screaming person won't stop and the screaming person's guardian won't take action but on an airplane, it's a SAFETY MATTER

shocked that people simply refuse to get it, their convenience trumps MY safety um don't think so

[trumad]

67. Dude---or Dudette--can't tell because your profile is diabled.

Please don't come in and shit in this thread. Please.

[ret5hd]

70. Have you ever seen this person do anything else?

[trumad]

71. Honestly I've never encountered the dude..

very angry though...

[H2O Man]

72. Yet you

dodge post #44 ......

[trumad]

73. Wot would me do ye that for?

[H2O Man]

74. Okay, you when ....

" 'The only little crawlie things we want are babies'," -- Lennon

I agree with you. There are very, very few instances when children disturb me in public. In those very, very instances, it is always closely related to extremely obnoxious parents. But in general, children do not bother me. Adults are much more likely to.

[ret5hd]

76. A true story:

Wife and i were in a small Lebanese restaurant, lunchtime crowd.

Young businessman (late 20's) demonstrating EVERY F%$*ing RINGTONE ON HIS PHONE to his office mates.

After about 5 minutes of this and no end in sight, a young woman from across the room stood up, stomped to his table and stopped directly in front of him, lowered her face to DIRECTLY in front of his and shouted "STOP IT! STOP IT! WHAT WOULD YOUR MOTHER THINK!!!", then stomped back to her table.

Shocked, STUNNED, he put his phone away.

The ENTIRE restaurant applauded.

The table with the offending customer finished lunch very quickly and quietly.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. trumad, you're wasting your time.

[gollygee]

87. This is a 19-month-old

"but the aircraft should not take off if there are persons aboard who can't comply w. the safety regulations because in event of a true emergency this person will still be out of control greatly increasing the threat to EVERYONE on board

this mom thinks her brat is special and doesn't have to follow the rules we ALL have to follow, she was properly removed from the flight"

NO 19-month old can follow safety regulations. That's why they have parents with them. Some disabled and elderly people are also unable to follow safety regulations. Children are people and are part of society. They have a right to live in society, and that includes the right to travel.

A 19-month-old not being able to open an emergency exit will not further endanger the other passengers of the plane.

[pitohui]

95. the child was vocalizing throughout the security announcement, this is against regulations

the FA followed the rules, and since the mother would not or could not quiet the child, it was right and proper to remove the child

period

end of sentence

if "no" 19 month old can be silenced during the security announcement, then NO 19 month old can be allowed to fly, but if you had ever flown yourself, you might have noticed that SOME families do comply w. regulations and keep their children seated and restrained as required by FAA regs

THIS mom smarted off and showed "attitude" instead of complying w. a crew member's request

she was removed, and properly so

really there is no debate to be had, these are the rules, if you don't like 'em, then walk!

[gollygee]

96. If the baby was loud enough to drown out the FA, fair enough

but I doubt that's the case. I also doubt the baby was the only person making noise. I've flown LOTS and I have yet to hear silence during the safety speech.

[pitohui]

98. i don't doubt it, as it was clearly loud enough to cause the FA to object

believe me, FAs have enough to do getting off the ground, they don't need to go looking for excitement this time of century

[gollygee]

107. You don't doubt a 19-month-old was drowing out an FA speaking into a microphone?

Hmmm.

[ret5hd]

110. Whats wrong, you didn't get enough attention today? Again?

[nini]

75. one comment on the discipline since that was my issue

I never said BABIES need to be disciplined and agree with you they are too young, however, Toddlers are ready to learn the basics and are capable of responding to 'shhh' etc.. Also, if the parent deals with their testing of their limits when they first occur they're less likely to keep testing you and having those tantrums.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Missy Vixen]

77. Doesn't it help to give the baby a bottle or the breast while flying?

>The baby didn't stop.<

I seem to remember something about babies screaming because they need to swallow and that will decrease the pressure in their ears. The high-pitched screaming scares me, too -- I'm afraid something's wrong, and the parent just isn't paying attention.

I was in the grocery store last week, and the woman in line behind me was on her first trip out of the house with her new baby. Of course he cried. She looked a bit upset till she was surrounded by a group of cooing grandma-types, comforting her and talking to the baby.

I have a "delightful child" story from yesterday. I was flying home from Dallas, and we were on Alaska's "Disneyland" plane. Alaska had a plane painted with Disney characters as a promotion when they initially started flying Seattle/Orange County, I believe. There were several YOUNG children aboard the same flight I was on. There was a mechanical delay, so the flight attendants announced it was okay to get up and walk around till we were told the issue was fixed. To see the kids coming up the aisle to poke their noses outside the open door to see the Disney characters painted on the side of the plane was very, very cute. They were exceedingly well-behaved. Can I say that they were more well-behaved than the guy behind me, who bitched incessantly that he was going to miss his connecting flight?

Julie

p.s. The FA's and pilot made sure every last person on that flight with a connection was rebooked on the subsequent flight before we even left the gate at DFW. Yay for Alaska.

[nini]

84. reminds me of a flight from Vancouver to LAX

When we landed a little boy looked at the windows and yelled excitedly - "Mickey - I'm here!" It was very cute.

[gollygee]

89. I wonder what the FA would have done if the mom had started breastfeeding the baby

Somehow I don't think it would have gone over well.

But yes, that's what I did when we flew with my daughter at that age.

[Midlodemocrat]

101. Yes, it does, but by all accounts this little guy was just babbling

the plane hadn't taken off, so the ear pressure issue wouldn't have entered into the picture yet.

And, some 19 month old babies are already weaned.

The flight attendant was an ass and should lose her job, IMHO.

[Katherine Brengle]

79. Good points --

I do the same. If my daughter gets out of hand (and sometimes 3 year olds tend to do that), I take her out of the situation if possible.

An airplane is a different story though, as you said - sometimes you just can't calm a child, and sometimes people just have to suck it up.

(BTW, excellent point that most of us parents don't like to listen to our kids cry or scream either - we're still human. We just can't ALWAYS solve the problem.)

Even well-disciplined kids are going to act whacko sometimes.

:D

[walldude]

108. Great post, like you I have 3, ages 13, 11 and 8

and I have stayed out of these threads because like you I see both points of view. As far as planes go well, it's the luck of the draw, I fly all the time, and I have been next to screaming babies which are no worse than the moron who comes on a flight with nothing to do or read and expects me to listen to their "witty" banter for 3 hours. Or the guy who forgot to take a shower before he left or the guy who ate a bowl of Chili before he got on the plane. People need to fly, deal with it. That said, at movies, restaurants, and other places it's up to the parents to decide whether their kids are well behaved enough to be in those places. I won't take my kids somewhere if they are going to disturb others. Eating out, and going to the movies is expensive these days, and I'm not going to allow my kids to ruin someones evening. Before my business took off it was a rare day when I could afford to take my whole family to a movie, and when I did go I sure wasn't going to put up with a screaming kid or a kid constantly kicking the back of my seat during the whole flick. I see nothing wrong with making seperate areas for families, and people who say "that's anti family" either never had kids or was lucky and got the most well behaved kids on the planet.

[treestar]

111. The old Catholic churches had baby rooms

Maybe planes need a baby section!

[nini]

115. that's what the cargo section is for

:evilgrin:

















:hide:

[RC Quake]

117. My exact thought also.

Bring on the sound proof rooms that they have in Catholic churches.

[firefox_fan]

112. So, we have to put up with YOUR kids. What do we get in return?

Seems unfair, no?

[trumad]

121. I don't want you to put up with my kids

but is your point that I should never take my kids out for fear of offending people like you? As said in my OP---when my kids got out of hand I removed them.... Isn't that OK with you?

[firefox_fan]

122. Yes, that is acceptable to me...

[Skittles]

131. yes

kids in general are not a problem - undisciplined kids with apathetic parents ARE

[usregimechange]

116. Let them scream if they are trying to get their way. Ignore it.

[Codeine]

133. No.

I shouldn't have to ignore it, it's not my child and not my responsibility. Shut it up or get it out.

[gollygee]

137. At home, yeah, on an airplane though . . .

I used to buy toys and put them in a carry-on bag so if my daughter got fussy I'd get out a brand new toy for her to play with. At home, no way would I reward her fussiness with a toy. Not in a restaurant or a grocery store where I can simply take her outside either. On an airplane though, all bets are out the window. All I want to do is get from point A to point B and keep her as quiet as possible for the sake of everyone on the plane.

[mzmolly]

119. I was much more annoyed by fussy children before I had one.

I was much more annoyed by fussy older children until my child was diagnosed with a neurological condition. Funny how that works.

[LuckyLib]

126. Great post. I've travelled with every age child and have family who are airline folks.

Have heard every story. Folks need to travel with a supply of liquids, snacks, and never-before seen gidgets, gadgets, stories, and toys. I saw it as my job to have a peaceful flight for everyone, myself included. Sometimes I was a 5 hour entertainment show, quietly, with my own child. Once in awhile, she fell asleep.

My pet peeve is parents who take infants and toddlers out during NAP TIME. Your screaming child at Target at 2:00 p.m. is exhausted, fatigued, and needs to be home sleeping. One of the cardinal rules of toddler parenthood is that your agenda is dead last.

[OzarkDem]

130. A little planning goes a long way

I feel the same way about kids crying in stores and restaurants - they're often tired and parents are taking them out when they should be home having a nap.

I never made my kids skip a nap to take them shopping or out to eat. Why make everyone miserable - just plan ahead.

[NC_Nurse]

128. I concur. As a parent of 3 now-grown children.

I've seen both kinds of parents too.

[EFerrari]

132. I raised two screamers and I REFUSE to think or talk about them

EVER AGAIN.

:rofl:

[Ioo]

138. It is the 10, 12 and 13 year olds, not the babies. 10 year olds know better.

that run around like over privileged snots. I understand babies...