DAILYKOS: Situation grave at world's largest nuclear plant

[FourScore]

The world's largest nuclear plant, the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa plant, experienced a fire and damage after two earthquakes on Monday. Accounts of the damage worsen with each new report, and now data indicate that the plant sits directly over a fault line. The plant's seven reactors are currently shut down, but keeping them safely shut down will be difficult. If technicians cannot keep cooling water flowing to the radioactive cores, those could overheat, resulting in a meltdown and massive release of radiation. The head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency has urged Japanese authorities to investigate the accident fully.

SNIP

...Just in case TEPCO had any ideas about restarting the reactors, the mayor of Kashiwazaki, on Wednesday, ordered a halt to operations on Wednesday for "safety reasons."

On Wednesday, the operators announced that 400 drums of nuclear waste, not 100, have been tipped over, and 40 have lost their lids. But, repeated issuance of round numbers suggests that plant officials are making very rought estimates, perhaps as a way of easing in worse news to come.

Additional malfunctions, listed in an Associated Press report, include the following (as of July 17).

Duct knocked out of place in major vent; possible leak of radioactive cobalt-60 and chromium-51 from five of the plant's reactors.
Water leak inside buildings housing all seven reactors.
Malfunctioning of water intake screening pump at two reactors.
Blowout panel knocked down at turbine buildings at two reactors.
Oil leak from low-activation transformer waste oil pipes at two reactors.
Loss in water-tight seal at reactor core cooling system.
Water leaks from diesel generator facility, burst extinguisher pipe, burst condenser valve and filtration tank.
Broken connections and broken bolt at electric transformer.
Loss of power at control center for liquid waste disposal facility.
Oil leaks from damaged transformer and magnetic transformer facility.
Oil leak at reactor water supply pump facility.
Disrupted electrical connection at magnetic transformer facility.
Cracks in embankment of water intake facility.
Air and oil leaks at switching stations.
Land under parts of plant turned to mud in quake-caused process known as liquefaction...


MORE:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/18/92527/0219

[Bonobo]

1. Oh, shit! Please, please don't be true...!

[ThomWV]

2. I presume they are evacuating people for hundreds of miles?

Or maybe not?

[snappyturtle]

3. This incident is exactly why I don't like nuclear energy . It's

not an absolutely stable source.....and then there's all the waste.

[ThomWV]

8. Coal is actually worse in every way.

[Bill McBlueState]

20. spoken by someone who should know

I grew up just across the Ohio River from West Virginia, but now I live in the northeast. My impression is that people are a lot more likely to oppose nuclear power if they're not in coal country. When you don't have to worry about you or a family member succumbing to coal-related environmental hazards, it's much easier to demand that we continue to use coal as our main energy source.

[ThomWV]

54. Not to mention the long distance pollution, including radioactive waste

People just don't seem to understand that the vast majority of our power comes from burning coal and just how very bad it is. Any realistic look at our energy future has to come to the conclusion that nuclear power will play an increasing part in meeting our needs. It is far cleaner and far safer than coal plants in every possible way. The Japanese have recognized this, so have the French. NOx, SOx, and of course Mercury are the worst pollutants coming out the stacks of our coal plants but they pale in front of all the ash. Mountains and mountains of ash and the piles just grow every day. By comparison every single bit of the highly radioactive waste every produced by every nuclear power plant in this country could be laid out on a football field and not stack up over a foot high. Unfortunately most power plants have been bad about segregating the really hot stuff from low level waste and so the volume we have to deal with is greater than that - but it didn't have to be and the future does not need to continue that way.

Windmills are fine, so is hydro of course, I like solar cells too, but there are severe limitations to how much of our demand they can accommodate. Look at solar as an example, Consider the amount of energy that lands on the roof of any small manufacturing plant in the course of a clear day - not enough to run machinery for an hour.

So in the end we will be using a lot more nuclear derived electrical power. What we should be doing is funding development efforts to make it even more safe than it is today and finding ways to accommodate a realistically estimated future set of needs.

[MadHound]

22. Don't buy into the false meme of an either/or choice

We don't have to use coal or nuclear power. Instead, as the DOE has pointed out, we have more than enough harvestable wind energy in this country to power it for the foreseeable future.

There are other options, and neither coal or nuclear should be one of them.

[nolabels]

50. Or if you don't live in a shoebox, go solar

Today's Solar Economics -
At Real Goods, we've been selling solar since 1978, when the price was well over $300 per watt or more than $6 per kWh (kilowatt-hour).

Today, with State of California incentives, that $6 per kWh cost has come down to around $0.12/kWh, a 98% drop in only 24 years! What this means for you is that you'll be guaranteeing yourself an electrical rate of $0.12/kWh for the next 30 years, over which time we all know electrical rates from the utilities will be sharply increasing.

What do these lower prices and governmental incentives mean for the average homeowner? We are frequently seeing 15% annual returns on investments (ROI) — far better than the stock market, bond market, money markets, and long-term CDs.
(snip)
http://california.realgoodssolar.com/economics.html

[snappyturtle]

36. I didn't say anything about coal....??????

[DinahMoeHum]

15. Not only too risky, they're too expensive and take too much time to build.

On average, building one would take 10 YEARS.

Given all that is not in their favor, not enough of them could be built to put even a dent in the global warming problem.

[snappyturtle]

35. For many years I lived in northern IL and was "contributing" part

of our ungodly electric bills to pay for a nuclear plant.....which they told us would save us more than what we put into it in after it was completed. It took longer than projected and when they got done with it the utility sold off power to other states. The bills only got worse.....then fortunately, I moved. Three Mile Island and Chernobyl is enough for me and now this Japanese incident. :grr:

[KAT119]

39. Plus radiation shelf life=1000's of years for heavy toxicity =cancers,

DNA changes, fetus abnormalities etc.etc.

Radiation travels worldwide in winds, waters, foods...this could not be worse...bound to happen esp. in earthquake prone countries/states....

I marched/petitioned for years to stop such a god awful, dangerous technology!!!

[TwilightGardener]

4. What kind of idiots build a nuclear plant on a fault line? Didn't they

consult geologists before they built it? Is Homer Simpson in charge there? D'OH!

[karlrschneider]

14. Japan sits at the intersection of at least 3 tectonic plates.

The country is all a 'fault zone', as it were.

[WhiteTara]

19. did you forget Mt. Diablo?

It sits on the San Andreas fault line here in California.

[TwilightGardener]

21. LOL! Stoooopid!

[kestrel91316]

26. That's Diablo Canyon. North of me a ways....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_Power_Plant

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. Pacific Gas and Electric for one

The Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power plant sits next to the Hosgri Earthquake fault, 3 miles offshore from San Louis Obispo California. Here is a local story from Monday:

"Can Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant withstand a major earthquake?"

KSBY-TV
Monday, July 16, 2007

Tokyo Electric is the largest nuclear facility in the world.

Here on the Central Coast, we have one of the largest in the country.

The earthquake in Japan was epicentered less than 20 miles from Tokyo electric's power plant.

It registered at 6.8.

That plant was built in 1951 and has 17 nuclear reactors.

The San Simeon earthquake of 2003 was centered about 60 miles northeast of Pacific Gas & Electric's Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant.

That quake registered at 6.5.

Diablo, built in 1985, has two nuclear reactors and the Hosgri Fault is located just three miles off shore from Diablo."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19798115

It was only sustained opposition from anti nuclear organizations that forced PG&E to admit that a fault had been discovered 3 miles off shore in the first place, which led to contentious hearings leading to structural upgrades to the plant. After all of that, it was only after the Abalone Alliance of grassroots activists launched a land and sea non violent blockade of Diablo Canyon days before it was set to go radioactive, that a PG&E engineer went public with his discovery that the structural changes designed to prevent a disaster during an earthquake were accidentally installed backwards, after the blueprints for units one and two accidentally got inverted prior to construction. It took several years to correct that mistake before Diablo Canyon finally went on line.

[FourScore]

24. That's amazing.

What happened to the engineer?

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. Good question. I'm not sure. The reason I remember this

is I was an organizer with the Abalone Alliance and I was present at the blockade when suddenly the news about the inverted support structure being discovered broke and plans for Diablo Canyon going online had to be shelved.

I started to do a google search to find some links to this, and I found some mentions but they were buried deep in long documents or collections of stories. Here is one reference:

Environmental News Network
Saturday, April 21, 2001
http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/04/04212001/reu_nuke_43160.asp

"California is probably the worst place to build anything, not just a nuclear power plant," said Marvin Fertel, NEI senior vice president of business operations. And memories remain.

California's two-unit, 2,200-megawatt Diablo Canyon nuclear plant was redesigned twice: once after an earthquake fault was discovered near the site, and later when engineers read the blueprints backwards. The final bill for the plant exceeded projections by several billion dollars."

This is from a Wikipedia entry on the Abalone Alliance:

"On August 7, 1977, 1,500 people demonstrated at the gate of Diablo, resulting in 47 arrests. The next year, 5,000 people rallied and 487 were arrested. On September 10, 1981, the Abalone Alliance occupied the site, leading to 1,960 arrests. Nearly 20,000 people showed up in support. At the end of the 10 day action, a 25-year-old engineer discovered a mirror image reversal in the seismic blueprints. PG&E was forced spend $3 billion and 3 additional years of repairs before reopening. Performers such as Jackson Browne and Wavy Gravy joined the protest and described the mass jailings as a "tornado of talent." In 1984, the Alliance organized the Peoples Emergency Response Plan, where affinity groups blockaded at the Diablo Gates over a 4-month period."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abalone_alliance

[FourScore]

48. Wow. A 25-year-old found a 3Billion dollar mistake!!!!

That's hysterical.

I remember Jackson Browne getting arrested.

Thanks for the links!

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. I think a 25 year old found the courage to report it

after he watched 20,000 citizens congregate at Diablo Canyon, with 1,900 civil disobedience arrests there. I think it was an act of conscience in response to all the focused attention on, and opposition to, allowing Diablo Canyon to go radioactive the way that it was, seriously flawed as he knew.

Obviously I can never prove that, but what are the odds that after several years of construction using blueprints held backwards that suddenly, a day or two before Diablo was to finally go online, with tens of thousands of demonstrators present on site and non stop coverage, that a 24 year old worker just happened to notice the error just then?

[FourScore]

60. Yep! You're prob'ly right! n/t

[diane in sf]

65. Frrom my thesis--effects of decommissioning the nuke plant near Sacramento

Paul Hawken and Amory and Hunter Lovins explore the growth of renewable energy sources:

…alternative energy industries not only help “offset the risks of climate change” but also offer greater growth prospects than the carbon fuel industry.” Group Planning at Royal Dutch/Shell considers it “highly probable“ that over the next half century, renewables could become so competitive a commodity that they’d grow to supply at least half the earth’s energy. Even today, renewable energy is Europe’s fastest-growing source, and California gets 9 percent of its electricity from renewable sources other than hydroelectricity. The world’s fastest-growing energy technologies, outpacing even energy savings, are wind power, increasing by about 26 percent a year, and photovoltaics (solar cells), whose annual growth has lately exceeded 70 percent…5


Regions that have changed to renewable energy sources and rewarded efficiency, such as the Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD), have found that creating power from these sources may have cost more upfront, but paid for themselves in a few years. Additionally, the net effect on the region has been to free up more capital for reinvestment in other things. The residents of the SMUD were not only able to improve the region’s economy, they did it while paying the costs of decommissioning the Rancho Seco nuclear power plant—costs that should have been paid for by the stock holders. This plant was never desired by the local consumers, but was forced upon them by the former provider, PG&E. Amory and Hunter Lovins cite R. Fountain’s article “Economic Impact of SMUD Energy Efficiency Programs,” in describing the benefits of his nuclear power plant shutdown:

After a referendum shut down the troubled nuclear plant that had provided nearly half Sacramento’s power, investments in efficiency and new, diverse, and often decentralized and renewable supplies replaced it reliably at lower cost. Moreover, university analysts found that five years’ investments in electric efficiency had boosted county economic output by $185 million and added 2,946 employee-years of net jobs.6

Being efficient creates more jobs and energy and frees up natural resources. According to Jonathan Rowe of Redefining Progress:

Investment in energy-saving technologies produces four times as many jobs as building new power plants. Recycling employs 10 times as many people as dumping or incinerating the same amount of trash. Mini-mills are the stars of the US steel industry today and they use mainly scrap.7

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

58. Idiots who want to make lots and lots of money. eom

[jojo54]

5. Why the F*CK did they build the damn thing on a known

fault line to begin with???? That was an incredibly stupid move, IMO.

[hedgehog]

10. Is there any part of Japan that's not on a fault line?

I can understand them wanting to get off of oil and coal, but too bad they went big for fission.

[jojo54]

13. Point taken. eom

[MadHound]

16. Same reason the Diablo Canyon reactor was built on a fault line here

Greed, stupidity, insanity and a criminal disregard for human life and the surrounding enviroment.

[Pachamama]

29. My exact thoughts too...

And ofcourse there are those who think we should be building more nuclear power plants in California.... :eyes:

[NuttyFluffers]

69. the same ones that build skyscrapers in boston, nyc, and st. louis....

rare are the places on earth devoid of faults and seismic activity.

but remember this, the buildings in japan and california are far more prepared for seismic activity than the vast majority of buildings in those other cities. and seismic activity, considering we live on the hardened 'scum' of a very active roiling broth of molten rock, is a question of 'When,' not 'If.'

[donsu]

6. not good!

nt

[ThomCat]

7. What idiots built a reactor on top of a fault line along the Pacific Rim?

x(

I know hind sight is 20/20, but didn't anyone think of this before they built the damned thing?

[Warpy]

12. Same ones who built them over fault lines in

California. They build them where they can get land and access to water, not where it's geologically stable.

[roamer65]

17. Yeah, exactly. Isn't Diablo Canyon built on or near a fault line?

[Lasher]

9. Built directly over a fault line?

To me it has always seemed that the Japanese have been cautious with nuclear materials, for obvious reasons.

[Warpy]

11. The original news was of a "minor fire."

I was channel surfing before I crashed last night, and CNN showed a picture of that plant and that was no "minor fire!"

Let's hope they got that sucker shut down quickly and that the contamination will be minimal.

If they didn't, this one will be a bad one. Liquefaction under nuke plant bad juju.

[WhiteTara]

18. human beings are so strange

after we bombed them and loosed terrible nuclear nightmares, they fill their country with nuclear reactors? I read the list of accidents they have had there in the past decade and it horrifying. The whole island is going to be uninhabitable! Let's not even mention the unknown quanitity of radiating the sea.

[diane in sf]

66. They don't have a lot of local power sources. But if the new wave generators

come on line soon that could be good since they are surrounded by lots of surf.

[pansypoo53219]

25. in a way this could be a blessing

may make the sheeple not listen to the bushevics cry for more nuke plants.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. It's Just The Most Horrible Deadly Nuclear Super-Disaster EVER!

Some people say that over ten million Japanese could have died ... maybe twenty million ... or MORE!

Right now, the death toll is AT LEAST ZERO -- OR NONE -- OR EVEN MORE!

Did you know that HAARP was operating? That lethal Tesla Technology is in every home in America? That a death-dealing chemical used as a reactor core coolant -- Sodium Chloride -- can make a human heart EXPLODE?

There are cute little girls crying tonight. Cute little blond girls -- and Japanee girls. Because their Daddies won't be coming home. :cry:

Working overtime is mandatory at cruel, meat-eating NuKKKular death plants. And in the venerable and mysterious Land of the Rising Sun, a reactor meltdown means ... hari-kari! The Ancient Ritual of Horrifyingly Painful Honorable DEATH!

Meanwhile, here's a quote from President Bush:

TERROR! FEAR! NUCULAR TERROR! 9-11! TERROR! BE AFRAID! NOW! NUCULAR TERROR! 9-11! TERROR!

He is truly a man of wisdom.

--p!
There are 127 million people who live in Japan -- and they will all die! ALL of them! (Eventually.)

[blogslut]

31. You work for the nuclear energy industry

don't you?

[kestrel91316]

34. Paid shill, I suspect. There are two or three on here who

ONLY post when they want to spread propaganda in favor of nuclear. You will notice they NEVER post about anything else.

[Dogmudgeon]

41. Pathetic. This time, for real.

" ... they NEVER post about anything else.

You post frequently on E/E, just like I do, and you've responded to literally dozens of posts I have made that had nothing to do with nuclear energy.

Peak Oil. Population. Global Warming. Bees. Pollution. Glaciation. And jokes.

Then you trot over here and pretend I never existed. That you'd never seen the nickname "Pigwidgeon" before.

Even teenagers are better at trash-talk than that.

"Paid shill, I suspect."

And you know I'm disabled, too. It is no secret on E/E. I've been called a shill there, too, and I've stood up for myself before. If I were getting paid, I'd have more options in my life right now than to spend all day writing for free. The "paid shill" libel is a little like mocking a rape victim about having a rough boyfriend.

And while I'm at it, I'll ask you what I asked blogslut -- do you really think that it's impossible to form opinions without being paid? Or do you really believe that "sheeple" insult, and think you and your friends are the only ones intelligent enough to be able to think?

It's not pathetic that you disagree with me. I'm fine with that. I encourage it. No, it's pathetic that you deliberately misrepresent me while you pretend naivete. A disappointment.

--p!

[kestrel91316]

46. I can't offhand recall you posting about anything except energy, in support of

nuclear power. I merely have my SUSPICIONS. And I am not psychic so I would have no way of knowing you are disabled.

I DO know, however, that you ae extremely biased in favor of a technology that we have NO WAY of properly disposing of its lethal waste. So I will judge you based on that.

[Dogmudgeon]

70. You got caught in trash-talk. Period.

Bullshit. I'm a regular on E/E like you are. You were maliciously gossiping, and you got caught. You appear to think that the rules don't apply to you when it comes to people you disagree with.

"So I will judge you based on that."

Then keep it to yourself.

--p!

[spoony]

57. People post about what interests them.

I didn't see anyone accusing you of being a pet food company shill when you were trying to calm irrational fears during that crisis. This is a similar situation, where there's a bugger of a scenario that, whilst serious, isn't worth pulling out the doomsday kits for.

[Dogmudgeon]

38. A strikingly original thought. Your own?

I've only had that brain-dead cliché spat at me, oh, 100 or 150 times.

It sounds just like "if you're not with us, you hate Amurrica."

And when did Lefties start endorsing fear-mongering? I guess the anti-fear-mongering "meme" lasted from 9-11 until two days ago.

Tell me something: why do the anti-nuclearists think that people (other than they themselves) are incapable of holding opinions without being paid? Is it because we are NOT born with silver spoons in our mouths, unlike the well-heeled anti-nuclearists?

Are you THAT cynical and superior?

I know that only environmentalists are permitted to have jobs in the fantasy world of the Bourgeois "Left", but actually, I DON'T work for the nuclear energy industry. They only make the energy that lets me use the computer.

Actually I'm disabled. I had to go fight on Monday to keep my medical assistance card. So if the NEI wants to give me money to work for them, and throw in a nice health plan, that would be fine with me. I did not come from old money, unlike EVERY founding member of Greenpeace and the majority of the professional soi-disant radicals.

Japanese Nucular Super-Disaster Death Count: Still ZERO.

There is lots of minor damage. There were stupid acts. But there was no disaster, and it didn't even come close. There will be an investigation. If there has been any mischief or malfeasance, heads will roll, as they should. But the anti-nuclear movement will continue on its path of stoking every irrational fear that has nothing to do with the use of nuclear energy for power generation.

Reject Fear. Choose Hope.

--p!

[blogslut]

42. I asked a simple question

Thank you for your rather long and meandering answer.

[Dogmudgeon]

52. It wasn't a simple question. It was an accusation.

And now, you won't even own up to it.

--p!

[blogslut]

53. Perhaps you are correct

It was a simple accusation. One I made because I find it odd that anyone outside the nuclear energy profession would respond so cavalierly to a horrible tragedy as you did in post #28. Then your absolutely unnecessarily hostile response in post #38 just pissed me off. Congratulations.

[spoony]

59. Horrible tragedy?

A mess, yes. But tragedy?

[blogslut]

61. The earthquake

Ten people died. One thousand have been injured and approximately 10,000 are in shelters. On top of that the plant is shut down, leaving I don't know how many without power, water and gas. And oh yeah, nuclear waste leaking into the sea. I call that a horrible tragedy.

[spoony]

62. Alright, granted. Thought you were just

talking about the plant. The water issue is of little danger, but yes the quake itself was a tragedy.

[Dogmudgeon]

71. And I started out mocking the press feeding frenzy.

But since I support nuclear energy, they decided that I was a "paid shill".

The idea that everyone with whom "we" don't approve is a whore -- over ANY issue -- has GOT to stop.

--p!

[Dogmudgeon]

68. I get pissed off by fear-mongering. And self-righteousness.

I responded cavelierly to a god damned press feeding frenzy over a reactor with non-critical damage while the real suffering in Niigata went unremarked-upon.

Death Toll from Quakes: Ten.

Death Toll at Reactor: Still Zero.

--p!

[jpak]

45. Sorry p!, this ain't over yet. The news just gets worse - not better

and millions of curies of radionuclides inside a severely damaged nuclear plant IS something to be concerned about.

Irrational fear not...

[Chemical Bill]

67. With nukes it ain't over for many thousands of years.

Funny how some people can't recognize that.

Bill

[spoony]

55. No shit

Like it's a bloody newsflash to everyone that earthquakes cause damage.

It isn't a meltdown. It isn't TMI. It isn't Chernobyl. It's a headache, and that list of things broken is nothing that cannot be fixed safely.

[SoCalDem]

30. Reminds me of the TMI episode..

At first they tried to downplay the whole thing, but eventually had to admit the gravity of it all. And having that movie out sparked everyone's interest :scared:

[applegrove]

32. Very grave indeed.

[Javaman]

33. This is a little preview of what happens if moron* bombs Irans nuke plants. nt

[KAT119]

40. ALL Middle East OIL Fields * Cheney drool over WILL BE RADIOACTIVE

for 1000's of years!!! Radioactive deadly poisons do not dilute or lessen over time....

[Jersey Devil]

37. The China Syndrome

Fiction becomes reality.

[helderheid]

43. I posted on this yesterday - only responses were from me!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1355229&mesg_id=1355229

I thought it weird.

[Javaman]

44. you quite the ego problem there...

:rofl:

[helderheid]

47. :P

I talk to myself all the time. :P

[FourScore]

49. I hate it when that happens!

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

63. I know how ya feel helderheid

I know how ya feel :cry:

[JVS]

51. Nuclear still rulez! Fuck all the haterz!

[malaise]

64. No country sitting on fault lines should have nuclear power

Japan is a disaster waiting to happen.