Al Qaeda will disband when US aggresion in the Middle East ends

[panader0]

I think Al Qaeda was founded to kick the US out of the Middle East. It has been strengthened because of the invasion of Iraq. It hit the USS Cole because of US meddling in the ME for oil profits. It is the natural reaction of a people who are tired of the imperialist aggresion of the US. To the Arab people, Al Qaeda is like the Minitemen were in the 1770's, patriots. Our fears of terrorism will end when we stop meddling in other peoples' countries. Can you imagine the US being occupied, our people killed on a mass scale, our natural resourses stolen? Would that make you an "insurgent", or a "patriot"? Get the fuck out of the Middle East now!

[EFerrari]

1. I'm not sure they will disband. (There is always a gripe or conflict)

But, when we stop acting like an aggressive Empire, we'll take some major wind out of their extremist sails. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

9. Exactly. Like the Phelps gang, they'll always be with us, but their recruiting power

will be severly curtailed.

[EFerrari]

10. Junior is a living billboard for terrorist acts.

And what a surprise -- his cronies profit from these at every level. :mad:

[wtmusic]

13. There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi families

who will never see their loved ones again thanks to the US of A.

Disband? I won't hold my breath.

[EFerrari]

14. We've displaced the whole Iraqi middle class

and are responsible for nearly a million Iraqi deaths. :(

We can't let these mofos go into Iran, too.

[wtmusic]

15. IMO more likely

is Iran will subtley annex Iraq by providing arms and troops to the Mehdi Army once we're gone. Iran has half a million standing troops, 250,000 reserves. Al-Sadr will be puppet president.

[EFerrari]

22. But, in contradiction to our Noise Machine, Iran doesn't have a history

of intervention. (Although in this situation, who could blame them for trying to do damage control?).

[wtmusic]

35. It may be self-preservation

If the Saudis start propping up Sunni leaders in Iraq as they claim they will, there are still millions of Iraqi Sunnis who hate Iran after 8 years of bitter war and they will now have plenty of war toys to play with.

Seems there's no avoiding escalation of this mess, sooner or later.

[EFerrari]

38. No kidding. Go, US! Escalating sh!T all over.

:(

[liberal N proud]

2. What are the predictions for when the oil will run out?

As long as the US is using oil and the oil companies have grips on Washington we will be aggressors in the Middle East.

[bdamomma]

3. they want us out of their business and their countries.

they just want us out. Just leave those people in the Middle East alone, just my opinion.

[aquart]

4. "Natural reaction," my ass.

Nothing billionaires finance is a "natural reaction."

[wtmusic]

8. It's all about the money?

No wonder they flew planes into buildings...to get rich! :crazy:

[CJCRANE]

34. Is Bush fighting in Iraq?

No, he isn't. In the same way the people who finance al-Qaeda don't do the dirty work themselves.

[wtmusic]

36. ?

I have no idea what your point is. Mine is that there is no soldier in the world who will kill himself for money, and that's certainly not why nineteen 9/11 perps did it.

They did it because they believed in their cause. We're helping them.

[CJCRANE]

39. The hijackers didn't pay for it.

They are not the financiers. They probably were islamic fundamentalists who believed in their cause. But the people who provided the $500,000 that the whole operation cost (training, transport, living expenses etc) aren't necessarily motivated by religion.

[slj0101]

5. From what I have heard in the past,

the tipping point for bin Laden was when the US established bases in Saudi Arabia. He was already teetering on radical fundamentalism, but that was the threshold.

I'm not one of those people who believes that al Qaeda is some fabrication. There really are radical religious groups out there, and they really do believe that terror is the means to get their way. Do I think they're used as some power-play boogeyman to scare us into line? Most definitely, but they do exist.

[Buzz Clik]

6. Can't agree with much in the OP

al Qaeda certainly dislikes the US, but they also hit other countries that aren't necessarily our allies or those who occupy "their" land.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Hmm.

Well, the freepers quit threatening to blow up government offices when they got a republican in the white house.

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. This Is An Extremely Dangerous And Misguided Premise That Is 100% False.

The threat of terrorism is real and we do need to stand up to it and defend ourselves against it. You can pull everyone out from the middle east you want, and these fanatics will still want our blood. To put forth the idealistic premise above is dangerous in its logic and not something that bears any legitimacy in reality.

[The Stranger]

19. Declaring an idea "Extremely Dangerous" and "100% False" really indicates that

there is something about it that is 100% True and that someone does not want discussed or seriously considered.

[Vilis Veritas]

21. Truth in part...but not the whole..I will grant you that.

Just stopping aggression will not be enough. There is a fatwa that was issued and it drives jihad...it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews.

The goals are to remove all western influence from the region. At least that is how I read it.

Link to fatwa: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

Peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. No, It Indicates That It Is Extremely Dangerous And 100% False.

And I wouldn't consider some idiotic notion that the earth is only 5000 years old either. Does that mean it's 100% true?

That's some silly logic you've got there pal.

[The Stranger]

26. What could possibly be dangerous about finding out the real causes of terrorism and addressing them?

Or do you not want people to find out what are the real causes of terrorism?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Wow What A Ridiculously Twisted Premise That Is.

Nice twisting of reality there. You should be a faux news anchor.

My comments had not an iota to do with not finding out causes of terrorism. It had to do with the ignorant and dangerous premise that if we just withdraw, the terrorists will simply leave us alone. Such a premise is extremely misguided and such a mentality, if inherent throughout our nation, would put all of us at extreme risk.

When the freepers declare us weak on terrorism, it is premises like this that are used as fodder. The overwhelming majority of us know the premise is absurd, but that wouldn't stop those who use our words against us from cherry picking premises like these and using them to describe us as a whole; which would be inaccurate. But they'd be right in showing that the premise is weak on terrorism. Such a mentality is monumentally short sighted and our national security would be at risk if those that felt similarly were in power. Thankfully, that's doubtful to ever occur.

Do you honestly believe that if we withdrew from the ME that the terrorists would cease to plot against us?

[The Stranger]

31. Whether I think so or not, it sure as shit isn't an "Extremely Dangerous" or "100% False" idea.

It is indisputable that at least some of the terrorism launched against the West is due to what has been done by Western powers in the Middle East. To deny this is an attempt to escape reality. And to claim that it is "100% False" and "Extremely Dangerous" is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Moreover, many who use the fact of terrorism -- or, more accurately, the fear of terrorism -- for their own gain often seek to obscure the true causes of terrorism in order to continue their own gain. They contend that there is no reason for it, and -- according to the now ubiquitous and well-known canard -- "they hate us for our freedoms."

By doing so, such people only ensure that whatever grievances truly drive terrorism continue to compound as grievances. By doing so, such people only ensure that the problems driving the terrorists will never be solved. By doing so, such people only really seek to ensure that there continues to be terrorism, for their own gain.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. It Is 100% False, Since There Is Zero Chance Of The Premise's Outcome Occurring.

Furthermore, if the leaders of this country were ever so narrow minded and naive to think that the threat of terrorism would end if we simply withdrew from the middle ease and enacted policies around such, then it ABSOLUTELY would be extremely dangerous. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. But I am thankful that no democrats of stature would support such naivety.

[The Stranger]

42. You are not making any sense.

It Is 100% False, Since There Is Zero Chance Of The Premise's Outcome Occurring.

What kind of faux rhetoric is this? You wouldn't know it were false if you never put it to the test. "The Premise's Outcome Occurring"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? A premise is part of a logical syllogism. It doesn't "occur."

Furthermore, if the leaders of this country were ever so narrow minded and naive to think that the threat of terrorism would end if we simply withdrew from the middle ease (sic)

The issue raised is whether there is a correlation between what the West has done by colonizing and robbing the Middle East of its natural resources and terrorism. No one in their right fucking mind would argue that there is no correlation. What is dangerous, as portrayed in the movie Syriana, is continuing this massive lie and pretending there is no correlation.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you. But I am thankful that no democrats of stature would support such naivety.

Don't be too thankful too soon. And, don't worry, you can't help me. But the longer people deny the causes of terrorism, the worse off everyone will be. And you can't fool all the people all the time. People are awakening to what is really going on.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. My God Are You For Real? LOL

It Is 100% False, Since There Is Zero Chance Of The Premise's Outcome Occurring.

"What kind of faux rhetoric is this? You wouldn't know it were false if you never put it to the test. "The Premise's Outcome Occurring"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? A premise is part of a logical syllogism. It doesn't "occur.""

It's called common sense. I understand this might be a foreign concept to you. I don't need to put to the test that if I dropped a 20 pound bowling ball on your head from a few feet above, it would probably really hurt. Some things are easily deduced from common sense alone. Furthermore, I said the premise's outcome. If you can't grasp what that means, then I really feel for you.

Furthermore, if the leaders of this country were ever so narrow minded and naive to think that the threat of terrorism would end if we simply withdrew from the middle east

"The issue raised is whether there is a correlation between what the West has done by colonizing and robbing the Middle East of its natural resources and terrorism. No one in their right fucking mind would argue that there is no correlation. What is dangerous, as portrayed in the movie Syriana, is continuing this massive lie and pretending there is no correlation."

What the fuck thread are you reading pal? That ain't the issue I responded to, that much I fuckin know. I responded to a premise of "Al Qaeda will disband when US aggresion in the Middle East ends". That premise is 100% false (as stated) and dangerous in its naivety. Don't change the fuckin context cause ya didn't like the argument. Read the OP again. It ain't about there being correlation. It's about it being the ONLY correlation. That's just beyond ignorant.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you. But I am thankful that no democrats of stature would support such naivety.

"Don't be too thankful too soon. And, don't worry, you can't help me. But the longer people deny the causes of terrorism, the worse off everyone will be. And you can't fool all the people all the time. People are awakening to what is really going on."

No one here has denied the causes of terrorism. You're just making that part up. What the complaint was, and is, is that a statement saying if we pull out of the ME the terrorists will leave us alone, is beyond ignorant and naive and 100% false on its face. Not sure why you are having so much trouble focusing on the actual context of this fucking thread. But regardless, no biggie if I can't alter your warped perception.

Nite now! :hi:

[The Stranger]

47. I'm not your God, and I am for real.

It's called common sense. I understand this might be a foreign concept to you. I don't need to put to the test that if I dropped a 20 pound bowling ball on your head from a few feet above, it would probably really hurt. Some things are easily deduced from common sense alone. Furthermore, I said the premise's outcome. If you can't grasp what that means, then I really feel for you.

Comparing pain from a bowling ball's falling on somone's head to geopolitical events involving nations, political and religious groups with millions of adherents, and the complexity of current events in today's world is laughable. Or, it would be laughable if only it rose to such a level. The predictions are a bit more subtle, more complex than your pathetic example, such as it is. Instead of trying to reduce the debate to bowling balls dropped from 20 feet, think a bit more big picture. And, if you must, feel for me. I'm sure those reading this thread feel for you.

What the fuck thread are you reading pal? That ain't the issue I responded to, that much I fuckin know. I responded to a premise of "Al Qaeda will disband when US aggresion in the Middle East ends". That premise is 100% false (as stated) and dangerous in its naivety. Don't change the fuckin context cause ya didn't like the argument. Read the OP again. It ain't about there being correlation. It's about it being the ONLY correlation. That's just beyond ignorant.

Okay, then, "pal," expand the scope of debate a bit. The concept behind the OP is the correlation between U.S. actions and terrorism. And that premise is not "100% false," as I have demonstrated to you before. There is some chance -- even some likelihood -- that Al Queda would cease operating if it had no focal point. As everyone in the fucking world knows, what the U.S. has been doing the last six years has had the opposite effect.

By invading a Muslim nation based on nothing but bright, shining lies, then torturing and murdering innocent civilians of that nation and obliterating any hope for its future, the U.S. has strengthened groups like Al Queda. Therefore, it is not "100% false" that if the U.S. took actions directly opposite to what it has done, that it would have the opposite effect on groups like Al Queda.

No one here has denied the causes of terrorism. You're just making that part up. What the complaint was, and is, is that a statement saying if we pull out of the ME the terrorists will leave us alone, is beyond ignorant and naive and 100% false on its face. Not sure why you are having so much trouble focusing on the actual context of this fucking thread. But regardless, no biggie if I can't alter your warped perception.

No one is making anything up. What my posts have become, it would appear, are efforts to get you to think conceptually -- beyond trying to decide if simple one sentence statements are "100% False" and whether they are "Extremely Dangerous" -- which is hard to fucking believe is even posted on these boards.

The underlying concept -- and the most critical question -- is whether there are underlying causes of terrorism (i.e., more specifically, leading to the creation of groups like Al Queda and their attacking the West), and whether U.S. actions or changes in policy can alter whether or not those groups flourish and attack the West.

[cherokeeprogressive]

49. I will concede only your first paragraph.

I don't know if you have read bin hidin's "open letter to America" or not, so I'll post some of it here. I'll say in advance that it's only part of the letter, and that the paragraphs I will post are not contiguous or consecutive. You're free to go read the rest, and then explain why you think understanding the cause of terrorism will have even the slightest effect in the context of putting an end to it.

"What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). I'm sure that Atheists and Agnostics aren't given a pass here. Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.


The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?
"

In some small measure, they hate us for our freedoms. And they want us to become good Muslims. They EXPECT us to throw away our democracy, separation of church and state, and form a government based on Sharia law.

You can read the whole thing here.

[Vilis Veritas]

20. 100% correct.

To fantasize about the day we leave Iraq and that how the world will somehow be rid of the threat is foolish. We can leave Iraq, but we will never again rest easy.

Peace

[DireStrike]

46. Watch your absolutes

That's all I have to say.

[slackmaster]

12. Wishful thinking on many levels

To the Arab people, Al Qaeda is like the Minitemen were in the 1770's, patriots.

I do agree with you that we should get our economic interests out of the ME, but that's a rather broad brush you're painting Arab people with.

[Igel]

16. Let's see, one of their enemies is the insufficiently Muslim

Sa'udi government. They want Islamist governments from al-Andalus to Indonesia. Their missives have called for a restoration of the Caliphate ... the Muslim's humiliation started when it was abolished.

Note the "al-Andalus" business. Just because it doesn't show up in every tape or document issued by the gang doesn't mean that it's a throw-away item.

Another is Israel.

There's a motif there: Muslim land is forever Muslim, and the Arabian peninsula is off-limits to non-Muslims, esp. Jews; Muslims must not be ruled over by non-Muslims (i.e., there's an order of submission that they must see is observed); and the ummah is only the best nation if they command what (they believe) is right and forbid what (they believe) is evil. All else follows.


*One* of the group's stated goals is the US out of the Arabian peninsula. But it's a derivative goal, given their ideology, and not necessarily a primary one. Just a necessary one.

But just as the Democratic party won't 'go home' if the troops are pulled out of Iraq, so AQ won't stop if one goal on their laundry list is crossed off. Sorry ... "crescented off".

[Vilis Veritas]

17. Not really...

Al Qaeda was not founded to kick the US out of the Middle East. It grew out of the Russian conflict in Afghanistan to fight Soviet Communism in the '80's

They were partially funded and supported by the US, hence, the fact that there were Bin Ladens in the states during the attack on 9-11. The web is twisted and highly intertwined and this enemy will be with us for a long time...REGARDLESS of withdrawal or not. When you turn on those you befriended, you make the bitterest of enemies...which may have been the plan all along...

edited to add: To your point on getting out of the middle east...that IS valid. However, it would also require Israel to get out as well as the complete de-westernization of the region, at least according to the 1998 fatwa issued by Bin Laden.

[theboss]

24. The Bin Ladens in the US had little to do with Osama

The Bin Laden family would be important internationally if Osama had never been born. They are a rich, powerful, politically connected family regardless of any connection between the US and Osama prior to 9/11. The fact that Osama rose from that family is important but don't paint the connection with too big a brush. It's sort of along the lines of a Kennedy becoming the most wanted IRA terrorist or something. Maybe that's a bad analogy but you should get the point.

[Vilis Veritas]

27. Point taken. I used a spray can when a pencil would have sufficed. nt

[mmonk]

18. It was founded to create a quagmire

for the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. It is linked to the US, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. The grand scheme later became to facilitate a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanstan after the Soviet Union was kicked out.

[theboss]

25. Nonsense

Unless the Arab people all secretly want to live in an Extremely Theocratic Pan-Arabic Empire, I don't think you can call Al Qaeda Minutemen.

[Perky]

29. no not really

Al Quaeda goals ultimately are Islamist Hegemeny and Wahabism. They are also readically opposed to the House of Saud.

[One_Life_To_Give]

30. Didn't start with us

Maybe the latest "Name" started with US forces being in Saudi Arabia. But the organization started with the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. And more importantly this is a fight that for some has been going on continuously since the First Crusade.

And even if we could finally put an end to this thousand year old plus war. Violence in many parts of the world is unlikely to stop. The struggle has put certain men in power and they will find excuses to maintain that power should the struggle ever cease or loose reason or meaning.

[aikoaiko]

33. We'd have to say good bye to Israel

I know some would like that, but it whatever happens would be gruesome. Israelis will not go easily.


Plus, the Islamic jihadist fundies would still hate the US for MTV teaching their daughters to dress like Christina Aguilera.

[devilgrrl]

37. I think Al Qaeda is no different from SPEKTOR or KAOS. In fact, I don't think it exists at all.

:-|

[piedmont]

40. Bullshit. Their list of goals includes the establishment of a Sharia-law Caliphate...

over the current muslim world, the destruction of Israel, and to eradicate "American influence" from the muslim world. That last one probably would never be possible without further attacks on the U.S. and its citizens. None of these goals would be accomplished simply by the U.S. withdrawing from the Middle East. And since when do we fight our enemies by giving them all they want to accomplish?

[Marrah_G]

41. No they won't

[hollowdweller]

43. I don't think it will end, but it will peel away a large amount of sympathizers.

I think like with any movement there are a lot of reasons that people join them, not all the same.

Just like here in the US we have protest junkies who go to every protest even when they may not really be passionate about the issue there will be jihad junkies. However if the US would pull out of the region it would neutralize a significant amount of recruitment potential and members who are really pissed about our involvement over there.

[SoonerPride]

44. There is no real terrorist threat.

The real threat is from our government.

The ability of thse radicals to inflict monumental harm to us is nominal.

Our reaction to a rather insignificant threat (in terms of lives and dollars) where we lose rights, freedoms, spy on our own citizens without warrant, torture, and go completely insane with hyped up fear is the real danger.

IMHO the effect of the country's reaction to 9/11 was way worse than 9/11 in and of itself and in essence, the terrorists have already won.

We've abandoned core principles and gone on foolish military misadventures and it hasn't made us a bit safer.

Whether Al Qaida disbands or not should we divest ourselves of all mideast acquisitions is rather inconsequential.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. "The ability of thse radicals to inflict monumental harm to us is nominal." THAT, is naive.

Bust a dam. The mighty Colorado River has dams at Glen Canyon, near the Utah-Arizona border, Hoover Dam, Parker Dam, Davis Dam, the Palo Verde Diversion Dam, and Imperial Dam. Failure of any one of those dams would cause the ones below it to fail also. MILLIONS of people live next to the Colorado River, and depend on the commerce it makes possible, not to mention the hydroelectric energy the dams provide. Or maybe dump 5,000 gallons of cyanide into the California Aqueduct (there are literally HUNDREDS of miles of it, undefended and unpatrolled, but accessible to anyone with a 4x4). Fly a large airliner into the containment dome of a nuclear power plant. On that point, do you really, really, in your heart of hearts, think that the US gubmint would authorize the destruction of a civilian airliner because it was off course, and unresponsive to radio commands/queries? I often wonder why 9/11 conspiracy theorists bring that up. "Why didn't NORAD DO something?" What do you think the American public, and the WORLD would be saying today if on 9/11/2001 the US gubmint SHOT DOWN 4 airliners because they were off course and unresponsive to radio transmissions? WITHOUT knowing what was happening onboard? I live in So. Cal. Our ports are protected by "breakwaters", which are HUGE lines of boulders meant to make the water in the harbors smooth. There are gaps in the breakwaters that allow ships to pass through. Our ports are the BUSIEST IN THE WORLD. What if 10 ships made a beeline at once at EVERY gap in the breakwater and were scuttled, effectively cutting off the flow of commerce?

Nominal? Naive.

[Babsbrain]

48. Al Qaeda exists only is georgie's mind

They are his boogeyman. Middle Easterners hate us for our hypocrisy, imperialsim and corruption.
Can't blame them for that.

A terrorist or a patriot - just depends on which side of the fence you're on.