What kind of a man enjoys dog fighting?

[Philosoraptor]

What is it about a good old cock fight or dog fight that men like so much? Is it the betting? Don't they have dog and horse races for that? You can bet on any damned thing, why bet money on a dog fight? Is it a male thing? To see two dogs fight to the death and record it? Is it a macho thing? Apparently this new 'fad' is catching on like crazy, is this another sign of a sick society that's entertained itself to death?

I've seen a whole subculture of guard dogs and their owners emerge over the last few decades, I remember when it was chic to own a doberman or two to dissuade certain folks from your yard or pot patch, and then came the pit bulls, it's terribly in vogue to own one or two or four or five of them, to have them chained up in the yard for status and machismo.

In ancient Rome they exploited ALL animals in this way, they were merely entertainment, exotic species of every kind were brought to Rome to be tortured to death, bullfighting was mere child's play to them, dogs attacked bulls, lions attacked criminals and Christians, giraffes were eaten alive by hyenas, all for the entertainment of the masses.

Is that where we're headed? Bum fight videos? Dog fight videos? Torture of prisoners of war videos?

What is it that's bringing out the very worst in people these days?

[and-justice-for-all]

1. I look at like this....

They dont have the nerve to have a 'fight club'. So these dogfighting morons have to put dogs together and bet on which on one will die first...It would be more 'macho' if those idiots would duke it out among themselves, but they are weak, so they have innocent dogs bleed instead of theirselves.

[baby_mouse]

2. Damn straight. NT

[Neshanic]

58. I agree. It's a male thing that they live thru the dogs in the fights,

and are too chickenshit to actually go into a ring and fight where there are no "tapouts".

[baby_mouse]

3. Unfortunately, sadism is fun.

That's really all there is to it.

It's not much different from bullying in the playground, people spend ages tryign to come up with explanations for why bullies bully, ranging from low-self-esteem, being bullied themselves, absence of father figures what have you. It's nothing so subtle, basically, they bully because it's fun. They enjoy it. They don't care what happens to other people so they just do what they like.

What it comes down to is that a lot of people are just basically sadistic. They like to hurt things and watch things getting hurt... because it's fun. Nothing much more to it than that.

Question is, where does that leave the rest of us...?

[raccoon]

13. You said that right, "What it comes down to is that a lot of people are just basically sadistic. "

I was thinking of starting a thread related to this today, the way some people like dog fights, cock fights, and think it's hysterical when somebody else gets hurt.

I read once that there's a Dutch proverb, "Happy people are never wicked." I don't believe sadistic people are really happy, either. In a sick way, they might feel better about themselves at seeing some other person or animal abused, but I don't think they're truly happy.

[izzie]

4. 'these days' ?????? Come now this is old as the hills.

Killing something, what ever it is, is a world wide thing. I can not figure it out either. I always thought guns were a replace ment for other body parts but even pre-guns killing something was in style. Their was aLWAYS a little boy around that liked to tease a dog with a cat he found. It was always beyond me. I grew-UP taught that we all shared this world and were to be treated in a kind way. Getting older has even turned me off to reading the news on such things.

[bunkerbuster1]

11. If anything, what's changed is legitimacy of those revolted by such violence

the idea of animals having any kind of "rights" is extremely new (and considered fringe, by most). Anti-cruelty laws are relatively recent.

Give us a little time. We're only just now getting away from the mindset that half our population (the female half) are property, not autonomous human beings.

[izzie]

60. Caring for animals is in the Bible I think.

Not that we do anything from the Bible. Or the one I had to read. We seem to be into the blood and guts Bible.

[Cha]

48. Yeah, the gladiators and the

lions..now it's the cocks and the dogs. Lucky cats don't have to put up with that shyte.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wiregrass Willie]

6. Not much of one ..

Morally speaking, how does torturing dogs differ from raping and sexually assaulting young children ? I had always thought dog fights were the realm of lower-class white-trash who hid out behind the barn.

Last night CBS News said there were estimated to be about 40,000 people engaged in dogfights. Let's hope the FBI will move in and stop this filth. One hand grenade should take out each such "sporting" center.

[markk]

7. ones a person the other isn't

thats like saying how does a slaughter house differ from the holocaust. Well a lot.

[Wiregrass Willie]

9. That's why I said "morally"

A man who will torture a dog would have no problems -- morally speaking -- raping a baby.

[markk]

23. thats insane

so you think there is a big baby rape problem in the matador,picador community?

[Clark2008]

33. I hope you're not defending animal torture.

And, I don't know - there probably IS a violence problem in the matador community, but, since bull fighting isn't legal in this country, we probably don't hear about it as much.

However, culturally-speaking, bull-killing is not quite the same. The matador kills the bull himself - he doesn't have it fight to the death with another bull. I don't condone it and refused to go see a bull fight when I went to Mexico, but I don't quite see it the same. I've been around enough cock fighting to know how very violent it is (did you know they put knives on the "knees" of the cock so it will stab the other cock when they kick?). I was a crime reporter for years in the hills and hollers of East Tennessee. I know from cock fighting, I'm afraid.

[markk]

34. im saying equating it morally to baby rape is insane

[HardRocker05]

51. why do you feel the need to compare and place one over the other? they're both wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. LOL!

[HardRocker05]

50. well, i suppose animals might consider a slaughter house to be every bit as bad as the holocaust,

but so what, they "don't count." by definition. there is something a little dangerous in your *arbitrary assertion* that killing/torturing people is so much the worse crime because, (stated very seriously and emphatically, as if it means something) we're PEOPLE. No shit; we all know we're people and animals aren't, and if the significance of this is so very clear and undeniable, then i'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble moving beyond this self-important assertion and giving a detailed logical, factual explaination as to what the basis of this significance is. until then, your statement that 'they're people' is no more meaningful than 'they're white' or 'they're male' or 'they're christian.' sorry to be tedious, but i think the self-indulgent arrogance of the human race needs some serious examination and remediation.

[pipoman]

8. Mostly agree

Aside from nearly every word markk has written I only disagree with 2 points made.

What is it that's bringing out the very worst in people these days?

IMO there is far less percentage of the population (at least in the US) who would approve, let alone participate, in such cruel activities now than any other time in history. Public hangings, lynchings, stoning, as well as vicious animal fighting were fairly popular save the last century. There are a few hold backs who I pray karma catches up with.

The second is likening these activities to hunting and meat production. For the majority of hunters it is not about the kill, it is about the activity leading up to the kill. I have hunted for years and have never hunted with anyone who didn't make every effort to a) kill the game cleanly and b) eat what they kill, with the exception of animals classified as varmints, but even most varmint hunters kill humanely. Myself, I would rather hunt with my camera the older I get. I mainly hunt now days to cull the populations to reduce property damage and keep the populations healthy.

[marions ghost]

you have to admit

there is a link with dogfighting to the bad kind of hunter who just likes to shoot up the woods and take aim at anything that moves, then leave it to rot or later die from wounds. Responsible hunters know that plenty of these types are out there. They tend to be the young & the restless who express their manliness by blowing away every animal they come across. Once you learn to enjoy killing for no practical reason (eg. food, euthanizing, self-defense) then you cross a line that puts you in the same moral league as dogfighting supporters--killing as sport. I don't buy the line that hunters "love nature" so much. Being in nature shouldn't trigger the urge to kill.

It seems to me we have plenty of outlets in this culture for people to get their aggressions out. Kids play paintball and football. They can kill everything that moves on a computer screen. But things like dogfighting & wanton killing disguised as hunting continue to proliferate. Some people, probably the more literal types, just have to see real blood and real suffering. It's a primitive instinct, to keep the idea of mortality at bay. It goes something like, "this creature dies, and so I get an extra charge of life for awhile." It's exhilarating--good cruel fun.

No it's not quite as bad as watching torture of humans, public stonings or hangings but it's still the same instinct. I'm not so sure these blood sports couldn't make a comeback & hope you're right that they're dying out. Maybe if we had a better view of death in our culture, we wouldn't have to waste so much life for psychological fortitude.

[pipoman]

36. I am sure some of that goes on

it is just very rare (at least around here). Most hunters around here have been taught from a very early age, they are taught to respect the wildlife and feel terrible if they wound an animal and are unable to find it. We have spent entire days trying to locate a wounded deer. If someone wounds a deer in our area many other hunters will assist in locating it. I think the 'hunters' you are referring to are violent younger males with no history of hunting, they generally go to public hunting ground where game is sparse or trespass (which isn't tolerated for long). Most land owners can tell in 3 seconds that they don't want them hunting on their land.

About 10 years ago an acquaintance of mine was telling me that he was poaching deer for their antlers. I immediately acted interested and asked him to give me a call when he was going out next. He called me a week or so later, I declined to go but not until I asked him where he was going. Turned out he was going to a nearby federal wildlife refuge. He was arrested that night... ;)

I don't think you are referring to hunting as 'blood sport' but I believe those who do believe it is simply don't understand the necessity of it.

[marions ghost]

44. I am here to tell you

that I live in an area where anything goes, hunting laws are a joke, and there is no interest from the authorities unless a person is actually wounded or killed. These "shooters" as we call them (they aren't hunters in the best tradition of that) rule the woods & fields near subdivisions and public places. I suspect there's even a certain thrill in rattling the nerves of people who would like to be left in peace & relative safety. We are virtually powerless legally and they know that. In between all the subdivisions around here you can hear gunshots any day of the year. There is no deer 'season'--it's always going on. I have encountered these young shooters and many of them are in their teens. There are 35 houses on my road, but you can fear gunshots going across the road from high-powered rifles at any time. Calls to police end up in "reports', no action. With no controls, these kids are nothing more than neighborhood terrorists.

Good for you for taking things in your own hands when you can. At least you don't support the offenders, which I have seen from hunters fearful of losing their rights. But realize the extent of the problem.
Being on the inside of this activity you're in a position to change attitudes and uphold/strengthen laws. Don't let anyone defend the 'shooters.' This is a big problem in many areas of the country, particularly in areas of rapid growth where the laws are very lax.

[smokey nj]

31. I think a link can be made to canned hunting a la Darth Cheney, THAT is about the kill.

[pipoman]

39. Oh, maybe some of it

mostly though I think it gives fat, lazy, rich, urban men an opportunity to show off their $20k shotguns. Now canned hunts involving exotic game is just fat, lazy, upper middle class idiots who can't afford a real African safari.

[bananarepublican]

10. Someone on their way to becoming a serial killer! n/t

[spanone]

12. A sick one.

[raccoon]

14. Du'ers, if you see or smell a troll, alert on it! nt

[NashVegas]

15. Someone With the Mentality of Having a Two-Inch Dick

Just saying ...

[napi21]

16. There was a caller on a talk show the other day with a scarier

story than Vick! I live 5 minutes from he Falcons Training Camp, and Vick really PI**ES ME OFF, but the caller was a retired social worker from Chicago. Sh said that in many of the poor families in Chicago, dog fighting is a weekly family entertainment. When they would ask second graders how many had been to a dog fight, 80% of the hands would go up! The whole family looks foreward to going to some abandoned building where they're holding the WEEKLY DOG FIGHT and mom, dad, and ALL THE KIDS go!

I knew this terrible cruel activity took place, but I NEVER realized it was so wide spread! When parents take their small children to something like that, what kind of adults are they going to be?

[B3Nut]

32. Even in Madison

in the higher-risk neighborhoods, schoolchildren have raised their hands when asked during our humane-ed presentations if they had seen a dog fight. We do a presentation where we go into schools with our Pit Bulls do give lectures about humane treatment of animals...hopefully we've been able to make a difference for some of these kids who could otherwise easily grow up to be animal abusers themselves.

Oh, and Vick needs to be put away for a LONG time. People like him are truly beneath contempt.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Cha]

49. Jesus H Christ..

I guess this is all happening to enlighten :wtf: is going on in our country. They sure as hell don't have a role model in the president(sic).. sending thousands off to die and get maimed because he wanted the oil and some poll numbers and he didn't care how many Iraqis got bombed outta existance to get his way.

[supernova]

17. One who should never ever expect sex from me.

Nor any woman with an iota of self respect. :P

[Virginia Dare]

18. Morally corrupt...n/t

[slj0101]

19. I'm conviced it's for the risk involved; the rush of engaging in a criminal sport.

The guy is a freakin' millionaire athlete. What does he expect to gain from illegal dogfighting?

[DS1]

21. that's my impression too

[undeterred]

20. A man who likes repelling all women

[devilgrrl]

22. Trolls who come to DU and state that it would be fun to watch

:eyes:

[Drum]

24. Men who are afraid to engage in Fight Club themselves.

Oops, I'm not supposed to talk about Fight Club. :blush:

[lonestarnot]

25. I hope the fucker has to hide from people throwing shit at him the rest of his fucking life.

[Clark2008]

26. I don't think it's a "male" thing - just an idiot thing.

My husband, definitely male, came home telling me about what Vick is accused of doing and then said, "Maybe they should throw that son of bitch on the ground and bash him like he did those dogs."

No real man would enjoy that sort of thing - and my husband loves betting (not to the point of detriment, just entertainment). But, he bets on fantasy sports and plays Powerball. He doesn't bet on things that hurt animals.

[HardRocker05]

55. seems like a lot more males torture animals, but you're right, it is not a male thing; some men have

simply mistaken it as a male thing and think it makes them a macho 'real man.'

[La Coliniere]

27. Probably the same kind of man who enjoys

all of the other wretched forms of violent entertainment that so many of us Americans love to either participate in, or be spectators of. Unfortunately, cruelty and sadism seem to be needed components of manhood for some. Gee, where does that come from?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

29. Until very recently

cockfighting was legal in Oklahoma (maybe other places too). Most was done on Native reservations and most of the cock owners were non-Natives. While I occasionally butcher my own chickens, the thought of torturing these birds makes me physically ill.

[Clark2008]

35. Killing instantly for food is quite different than slow torture.

I don't begrudge anyone killing an animal for food - I'm sure you wring the chicken's neck, which renders a painless death.

You're not doing it for entertainment.

[pipoman]

42. Agreed

I would add that our kids have always been around when we butcher. When they got older they were given tasks. They have gone with us when we take cattle to the processor too. They are well adjusted and treat the livestock (and all other animals) with great respect. They know where their food comes from and are better for it IMO.

[LeftyMom]

30. It's not a male thing. It's a weak, pitiful excuse for a human being thing.

Real men treat animals, human and non, with respect and dignity.

[slackmaster]

37. I've always figured it would be someone who hates dogs

:shrug:

[marions ghost]

38. the weakest kind of person...

the most insecure among us are attracted to such things as blood sports, vicious dogs, scenarios of death and domination. It's a pathetic effort to make themselves stronger with fixes of annihilation of others. In some ways they are pitiable if they weren't so dangerous.

So these are the people with the most fears. These are people with the most unresolved emotions about life & death, the most conflicted about roles and societal mores. They are the walking twisted who stop a hair short of committing crimes that will get them locked up. Many are victims of abuse themselves. These types are different from people who are just action-oriented. It's dangerous to confuse the two.

A question to throw out in light of the "War" in Iraq? Are we merely watching a dogfight over there now?

It's not hard to see Bush & Cheney as the ringmasters throwing more dogs into the fray. Are we any better than the Romans in having let this war go on after the fog lifted and we clearly saw the real agenda?

The strongest among us have got to stop it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

40. Cowards and sadists.

Too afraid to fight each other, these so-called men use torture as entertainment and to feel powerful. It's sick.

[MazeRat7]

41. Perhaps Sahelanthropus tchadensis ?... (pic included for clarity)

Of course I have no way of knowing this for sure... perhaps this kind of activity was just as vile to our ancestors some 7 million years ago as it is to us today.

MZr7

[bleedingheart]

43. While others may deny this...Man has not evolved much in the past 10,000 years

we are still pretty much the same as our Roman counterparts.

We may have more "rules" and there may be more laws to keep us in check...but deep down...we haven't changed all that much.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

45. You hit on something...

I have thought a lot about recently: we are insanely advanced technologically, but our overall evolution beyond basic "animal" is practially nonexistent. War, rape, violence -- the most base tendancies -- all very much alive and thriving after tens of thousands of years, now taken to a higher skill level because of our technology.

We are a shitty species. :cry:

[bleedingheart]

46. we are capable of the most beautiful and wondrous things as well

as the most base and vile.

The same species that could build the Pyramid, write poetry, compose music, and save lives...is also capable of mass destruction and shoving people in ovens...

We try to learn and our ability to reason, write and record has helped us to some degree but as the old saying goes..."those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it"...

We are truly unique...and we have to acknowledge our weaknesses and flaws.

[Javaman]

56. Only the caves have changed. nt

[Cha]

47. Is that where they got that expression..

"I don't have a dog in this fight"? I never thought about that before when I read someone say that..Now I will. Poor things.

[JacquesMolay]

53. A half-wit, I guess...

...n/t

[samplegirl]

54. Somebody who likes sticking firecrackers

up a frogs ass and lighting it. hmmmmmmmm let's see the guy you'd like to have a beer with.

[SayWhatYo]

57. just sick fucks...

I don't really understand it myself... I don't consider myself one of those "feelings" or even "conscience equipped" type of person either. I don't think there is anything new about these things. Sick twisted people have always been around and always will be around... well, at least until we humans kill each other off.

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. it is a level of conscious willful evil that I cannot even begin to comprehend

And it is inconceivable to any moral or rational person that any excuse could be made for doing such monstrous things for entertainment.

Some evil is driven by competition to fill legitimate needs or even desires.

Some evil is done in the heat of the moment or the heat of conflict.

Some evil is done because of uncontrollable or hard to control impulses.

Some evil is done because of manipulation by powerful social forces.

This evil is completely premeditated, well planned and scheduled, completely unnecessary under any conceivable circumstances and done for "entertainment"; a heinous and moral crime of the most reprehensible nature.

[theHandpuppet]

61. Probably the same ones who turn in to Spike TV...

...to watch two men in a ring beat each other into a bloody pulp. Ours is a culture whose thirst for blood and sadism seems to be insatiable.