Graphic example of why sex ed DOES belong in kindergarten

[proud2BlibKansan]

Too much time has passed to pursue rape allegations, police say
By GLENN E. RICE
The Kansas City Star

Authorities say a man raped two stepdaughters for years — impregnating them 10 times and burying one newborn in their backyard — but so much time has passed he can’t be charged.

<skip>

According to the report, one woman, who is now 39, said their stepfather repeatedly sexually abused her and her sister during the late 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s.

During that same period, the girl’s mother had five children with the stepfather. The sisters said their mother knew her husband was raping them but did nothing to stop it, and even participated in abusing them nonsexually.

The older sister said

the abuse began with sexual touching when she was 5 years old

, then led to oral sex and intercourse.

“I remember when I was going into the second grade, he was already having sexual intercourse with me then, because I would go to school worrying that I smelled like sex and that other people would know,” the woman told police.

more . . . http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/195893.html

[acmavm]

1. You just can't wait to get into people's business, can you? Yep,

someone should have been talking to those kids. But the corrupt behavior of some people doesn't mean that teacher's should be overstepping their bounds and sticking their noses into everyone's personal family life. This is not an everyday situation. All families don't go through this. Every kid in this country hasn't been molested. You make it sound like without teacher's sticking their noses into this situation every kid in this country will have been molested by the time they're five years old. I hate to have to tell you this but that is not the case.

Maybe teachers should worry more about this country's poor educational standing in relation to the rest of the industrialized world. Then take up something that isn't your business.

[Raven]

2. Well, until society sticks its nose in the business of a scumbag

like this one, we better educate kids about sex in kindergarten...obviously, the mother in this case didn't do it because it wasn't in her interest to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. This makes me so sad

The school district in that town is exceptional. I feel horrible for these girls and I am heartsick for every one of their teachers who sees this article and feels guilty that they didn't do anything to help these poor kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Because there is a chance that kids like this ARE being abused,

you bet we teachers will be watching out for EVERY kid. It's part of our training and the law requires us to do it.

You would be AMAZED by how many kids ARE sexually abused and how loudly THEIR families spout the same rhetoric you do.

You also need to do your homework and quit spouting false talking points about this country's educational standing. Besides, that's a mighty poor strawman.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Heh.

"Maybe teachers should worry more about this country's poor educational standing in relation to the rest of the industrialized world."

Well, they could educate other people's kids. But that would be sticking their noses in other people's business. And we can't have that.

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. You gotta love it!

Preventing sexual abuse is sticking our noses into other people's business. Who knew?? LOL

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. And lets not forget evolution. Or math.

Who the hell do teachers think they are educating other people's kids?

[acmavm]

49. I repeat, that's why he/she gets a paycheck.

[acmavm]

47. That's their job. Sex education isn't.

[phylny]

58. I learned EVERY SINGLE THING I ever learned about sex education

in the 1970s in New York State public schools. I learned about the reproductive process, about birth control, about sexually transmitted diseases.

I never had an unplanned pregnancy, and I have no diseases. I applaud my teacher, who came dressed to class one day as "Captain Contraceptives." Terrific teacher, who taught me well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Tell that to your state dept of education

They set the standards and determine the curriculum taught in your public schools.

[Pacifist Patriot]

110. School Board, not state department of education

Our county school board is having a HUGE issue with this now. I spoke to them at their meeting on Tuesday night. There are state and federal guidelines, but it's the local school board that determines the curriculum taught in our public schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. And that curriculum must follow state standards

At any rate, it is silly to blame the school or the teacher. They have no control over what is taught.

[Pacifist Patriot]

120. I'm thinkin' we're sayin' the same thing.

:toast:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. It has been federal law for decades

that a teacher must report any suspected incidence of abuse, sexual or physical. So I hardly call it "sticking my nose" into what "isn't your business"--it is actually a legal responsibility.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. And since I LIKE my job . . .

I do try to follow the law.

[acmavm]

44. REPORTING CHILD ABUSE is not the same thing. Do not try to make

this into something it isn't.

I said, and I will repeat it again for you, sex education is not the business of the school system. You (and others) use the arguement that because some children are in danger (which is a tragedy so don't try to read something into that that isn't there), you need to just step right on in and take charge in an area that is and always has been a parent's responsibility. You use the same damn type of logic that George Bush uses to justify spying on everyone. He says that there are 'some evil doers' out there and so he needs authority to spy on everyone. You say that there are some bad people out there (and you are right) so you think that you should have the authority to take it upon yourselves to tell a child about the things that a parent should tell him or her. And not just the kids at risk, no no no. You are now going to be the one to teach EVERYONE'S kids about something that who knows how qualified you or some of the teachers that would be talking to these kids are. No big deal that you don't have an intimate relationship with the kid, can't really judge his emotional maturity, can't really tell if he/she understands what you tell them. The only real way to gauge how much of the 'class' the kid grasped would be to talk to them. A teacher wouldn't know the kid well enough to judge how the kid is taking the information. Does it make them afraid of everyone? Do they have the maturity to understand that just because some things are bad, that doesn't mean sex is bad. And a hundred other questions and situations that may come up when a kid is told about sex.

THAT IS NOT YOUR JOB. Not things like this. It is not the business of the school system either. Hell, from some of the news stories the kids need to be warned about their teachers.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

59. What you are ranting against wasn't clear in your initial post

You talked about molestation and that that is bad, but that teachers shouldn't "stick their nose in" private matters. You did not specify that you were railing against sex education per se. By "private matters", I thought you meant that a teacher should never question what went on in a home, even if a child came to school undernourished, with two black eyes, or bleeding in the genital area. FYI, although I was legally required to report suspected abuse, I did not teach sex ed to the third and fourth graders I taught for nearly 20 years. I DID teach a sex ed course in High School when I was substituting for the regular teacher--juniors and seniors, boys only. Some of them, I was told, had parent's notes to opt out of the class because they felt that sex education should NEVER be taught in schools. As I recall, the textbook was rather bland, explaining the mechanics of sexuality only, and mentioning that there are such things as STDs. As a question to you--would you also object to this type of sex education class, or are you only concerned about younger children?

[acmavm]

74. I DID sign authorizations so that ALL MY KIDS could take Human

Growth and Development. So yes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

122. Ok

So you would say your objections are primarily about the age of the children being taught, rather than the subject matter. I only ask because in my neighborhood, there were people who objected to ANY form of sex education at ANY age. They felt it was better taught in home and at church.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Your lack of knowledge is scary; teachers know their kids very well

They are also as qualified as the certification standards in the state that certifies them. At the kindergarten level, this means they ARE qualified to teach sex education, as it is part of the curriculum.

[Kat 333]

80. I agree with you ...

and would be very upset if a school decided it was in a child's best interest to have teachers discussing sexual matters with kids at age five. Not all circumstances are the same and it isn't ok to assume that teaching some degree of sex education (what degree?), in schools, would be appropriate at this age. Most parents are responsible and much prefer to teach their children about appropriate, inappropriate touching, sex, and std's themselves.

This story, and others like it, are so very sad. I, also, would think, in extra ordinary circumstances, such as was posted, at least One of their teachers would have noticed that possibly something was wrong. The woman indicated she went to school tormented by this abuse. If there is some indication of abuse be it sexual, physical, or otherwise Yes I believe that it should be reported by the teacher to the principal and a qualified person, or agency be asked to intervene.

[Quantess]

89. I have news for you....

every child is a potential sex abuse victim. And, they need to hear warnings about bad people who want hurt them. Not enough parents do that for their child/children.

"Most parents are responsible and much prefer to teach their children about appropriate, inappropriate touching, sex, and std's themselves."

Obviously, you have never worked in a public school.

[Kat 333]

91. No I HAVE NOT ...

But that doesn't change the fact that it's my opinion, unless there is some indication of a problem, it is not the public school system's right or obligation to assume, what has and should remain, a parents responsibility. Most children KNOW by the age of four not to go with strangers, or to tell someone you trust if you're being beaten, sexually, abused, etc. Also there is no guarantee that this would encourage kids (that are being abused) to speak up. Most often, by age five, they would already Know if there is abuse taking place ... it isn't right. They are Afraid to say anything. I find it difficult to believe not a single teacher noticed anything unusual with these girls. A poster who is a teacher has made the comment that the school district in that town is exceptional. And later posted teachers know their kids very well. Gee ... glad to hear that it wasn't a shitty district with an out of touch administration. And I do know that, sadly, those exist as well.

[Quantess]

94. If it isn't obvious, I HAVE.

But, I personally have never been the first person to notice abuse of any particular child.
I have seen several cases of abuse, though.

I quit a few years ago.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

116. As with the OP, all too often the abuser IS the parent!

Just one reason why leaving this type of education up to parents is problematic.

[Quantess]

93. So, let me get this straight.

If someone, namely a teacher, imparts widely accepted, age appropriate, information about human sexual reproduction to children, that is wrong, in your opinion.

upon editing, I removed the word "scientific" becase of connotations.

[AwakeAtLast]

105. It is the teacher's job when the subject is Health

You do realize that some students hug me more than they hug their parents? It's not because I'm stalking them, they just crave the attention they are not getting from their parents. You spend more time with them than they do with their parents day in and day out and we are not qualified to teach them something important? Give me a break!

I will ignore the not-so-subtle jab about teachers sexually abusing students. This time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

115. I disagree

The average parent is not going to be able to explain biological functions and processes involved in sexuality and reproduction. Some parents will refuse to deal with it at all. Leaving it up to families will produce a generation of frighteningly misinformed young people. A friend of mine attended a religious school where no sex ed was given, and her family didn't discuss it. When she got her period at age 11, she was terrified. She said she thought she was either dying or being punished for some sin. Don't you think someone should have told her about menstruation?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

123. I think that was common in the 60s

My mom only told me about menstruation after my cousin started her period and was terrified, much like the girl you mentioned. My mother did not sit me down and talk to me though--she had gotten a flyer from a sanitary napkin company that she gave me, averting her eyes as she did so. The only sex education I got at home besides this was "don't disgrace your family", though it was never indicated how one got pregnant. If it hadn't been for the sex education films I watched in sixth grade, I wouldn't have had a clue. As it was, I was totally naive when it came to come ons from men, and nearly got raped because of that--luckily, it was the 60s, I was underage and told the guy, and the DA WAS prosecuting statutory rapes at the time.

[helderheid]

8. WOW!

:wow:

Speechless.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Can I borrow that problem?

It would do me good to be speechless every once in awhile. :)

[Occulus]

13. By your logic,

most of us faggots don't get bashed, so we don't need hate crime laws.

Yeesh. Talk about a piss-poor, uncaring attitude. I'm sure all DUers who were themselves molested would love to see what you have to say about it. But, it doesn't happen to everyone, so preventing it happening to the people it does happen to isn't all that important.

I think I just barfed a little in my mouth. Edited to add: I'm bookmarking this thread just for your post for future reference- not to refer to as a shining example, but as an example of how truly awful some people can be about abuse.

[acmavm]

39. Bookmark it to show that apparently you can't read. Or at least you do

not understand what you read.

[ThomCat]

55. It looks like everyone here read it and got the same

interpretation of what you wrote. Maybe you think you wrote something different? Maybe you should go back and read it?

[acmavm]

75. Maybe you should read further.

[ThomCat]

78. Oh, that's good.

Everyone objects to what you wrote, so apparently nobody read it, or else nobody but you is smart enough to understand it. Right. :eyes:

If you think that everyone is misreading your post, then maybe the problem isn't everyone else.

[Quantess]

15. What?!

You are 100% wrong. It is a teacher's legal duty to report abuse.

[acmavm]

38. Of course teacher's are supposed to report abuse. I said that these people

have no business taking over a parent's responsibility.

[bleedingheart]

42. teaching kids what is okay touching and what is not...should be taught in school

because there are really warped adults out there raising their children to be their future concubines...if they aren't already.

Sadly there are a lot of parents out there that ignore abuse or who abuse their children and they get away with it because the only thing the children have been taught is their own parent's warped perspective.

Daddy: "it's okay for you to touch me this way...but it's our little secret"

Mommy: "Daddy loves you so much and that is his special way of showing it"...or the mother is in denial and pretends not to see it at all...

I think that children should be taught from the earliest age what is appropriate and what is not.

I taught my kids. Hell when my son went to the pediatrician he told him during his exam..."my mom said that it was okay for you to examine me like this but that no one else is supposed to be touching me there"..

When my kids went to preschool my daughter and son used the appropriate terms for their anatomy...one of the adults was uncomfortable because my daughter complained that a kid kicked her in her "vagina"...this woman told me that my daughter shouldn't use words like that...I told her..."what...would pussy be better?..Vagina is the proper term"

[MLFerrell]

71. "Vagina is the proper term"

Actually, vulva is the proper term. The vagina is an internal structure.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

60. Are there standards by which parents should be held accountable?

I remember parents that allowed their 12 year old daughter, who was low IQ and in one of our special education classes, sleep in the same bedroom as an unrelated man (at least he was unrelated!). The girl got pregnant. The teacher reported it. The state stepped in. Would you say this was also wrong? Or is the only standard that a parent need follow one they adopt for themselves?

[acmavm]

76. What in the hell is wrong with some of you people? Of course that would

be wrong.

Don't talk down to me or talk to me like my knuckles drag the ground and my diet consists of mainly bananas.

[Quantess]

86. What was your point, then, really?

If you had a good point, obviously nobody got it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

121. I am not talking down to you

I am merely trying to understand you. Rest assured the ONLY person I would accuse of eating bananas and dragging their knuckles would be the occupant of the White House.

[AwakeAtLast]

106. And what parent who is sexually abusing their child is going to take on that responsibility?

This is about saving children from horrible acts. Are you saying we need to take a poll and only educate those who tell us they are being abused? Your logic mystifies me.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

117. You did read the story in the OP didn't you?

The abuser of the girls WAS their parent. How does your position that only parents should be responsible for educating children about inappropriate touching take that into account?

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Teachers are mandatory reporters and have been for decades.

Surely SOMEONE noticed that these girls were troubled. :wtf:

[demgurl]

20. I agree with the OP.

There does need to be some sort of sex-ed but maybe not the full explanation. Children should be told about good touching and bad touching. I talked to my kids about that a couple of years ago when they started to attend school.

You seemed very hostile toward the OP, is there a long standing feud or are you having a bad day? I believe the OP has the best interests of children at heart and wants to protect others from experiencing what these kids did. Yes, all events are this extreme but I dare say that lots of sexual molestation does occur. My Mom walked in on her brother changing my diaper when I was under a year. He was starting to sexually molest me! She told him he was never allowed near me again. Most people are not caught right away and kids need to empower themselves and know they can speak out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Thanks demgurl

:hug:

[demgurl]

26. You're welcome.

Right back atcha' :hug: :hug:

[MissB]

66. The sex ed you're describing is the one that nearly everyone

here approves of having the schools teach.... appropriate touching and all that. When I say nearly everyone, I mean all except the one you were replying to.

[SemperEadem]

27. wow... that post is an amazing example of ignorance

thank God that the law mandates teachers to look out for this...

[Arkansas Granny]

28. The actual statistics on child sexual abuse are quite frightening

and if education can help protect a child, I'm all for it. I don't consider protecting a child to be "sticking their noses into everyone's personal family life".

Some statistics for you to consider:

It is estimated that at least two out of every ten girls and one out of every ten boys are sexually abused by the end of their 13th year. To protect all children, we first need to learn the facts.

Did you know that most children who are sexually abused, are abused by a family member or close friend? Did you know that "stranger danger," by comparison, is quite rare?

http://childmolestationprevention.org/

1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.
An estimated 39 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse exist in America today.

http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp

[sandnsea]

30. Traumatized children can't learn

In case you missed that tidbit of information.

[Bluerthanblue]

112. oh, they learn

i can testify to that.

but some of what is learned cripples them forever.

this is a very difficult thread.

far too many children know what sex is before kindergarden.
from hands on experience.

not so sure what "education" would do-
maybe it is just me.

[liberalsoldier5]

34. Completely agreed!

If a teacher ever starts teaching my 5 year old about sex, we're changing schools by the end of the week.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. And if your kid is sexually abused, you would blame the school

Right?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Just a hunch

After nearly 3 decades of getting in other people's business, er I mean teaching.

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. Good touch / bad touch or sex?

I get the impression people are jumping to wild conclusions about what would constitute age appropriate sexuality education for the K-1 crowd. You can give this age group the information they need to help others help them without jumping right into condom failure rates and graphic descriptions of fellatio.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Wow.

Don't you think that's a little... childish?

[Quantess]

90. .....OMG it's gonna be, like, teletubbie porn for 5 year olds .

:crazy:

Added: :sarcasm:

[Pacifist Patriot]

43. Arming children with the basic information they need to help others...

help protect them is everyone's business.

[SayWhatYo]

52. Say what, yo?

Are you saying that they shouldn't teach kids about good and bad touching because not all kids are molested? What about the kids that are touched? Are they not worth saving because you're afraid it might piss someone off? Who would it piss off? I mean, other than those who touch their kids like that? Unless they start handing out condoms to five year olds, then I don't see why anyone should have any issue with AGE APPROPRIATE "sex education"(which may not even be the best word for it)

[MissB]

64. Teaching a group of kids about appropriate touching and inappropriate touching

is not "getting into their business". :rofl: At this point, all I can do is point and laugh, because otherwise I am left wondering what the hell you have to hide.

[TheBaldyMan]

97. which other crimes would you prefer the government not take steps to prevent?

your argument, I use that term under protest, is based on the numbers of children abused by adults who are in loco parentis.

Since the 70s a growing number of studies confirm that here in the UK about 10% of minors are abused by adults. That's a lot of kids. Teachers here are trained to keep an eye out for kids that are showing signs of neglect or abuse.

That is not 'sticking their noses where it's not wanted' it is detection and prevention.

[Katherine Brengle]

102. I would rather have teachers "overstepping" than helpless children

being raped and abused.

[Der Blaue Engel]

118. The safety of children is everyone's business

What a disgusting post.

[wicket]

12. Thank-you for posting this

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

14. I was in charge of Cultural Arts at my kids' school for years.

We ALWAYS did this show.

http://www.theatreiv.org/hugs.html

It's a wonderful show for k-1 and possibly k-2 about abuse. If you check out the link, there's a script and a study guide you can download.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Yes, this is great!

As someone who WAS abused at an early age (pre-school), I wish there had been programs like this "way back when". Instead, it was "none of anyone's business--be quiet and don't disgrace the family, honey."

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Wow that looks great

Thanks - I will definitely share that.

[IndyOp]

79. Wow - the stats at the "Hugs & Kisses" site say over 10,000 kids sought help

after seeing the play. That is phenomenal.

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

100. It's a great show.

[Clark2008]

16. Except teaching them about good and bad touches ISN'T sex

education. It's abuse education.

I have no problem telling children about good touches vs. bad touches and how to report such activity, but we don't have to teach them the "birds and the bees" that young.

That's what they do at my son's school and it's worked out well.

[Midlodemocrat]

17. And, actually, 'good touch, bad touch' type education

has been discredited quite a bit.

The reason being, that touching feels good sometimes, so it confuses children. The latest meme is the bathing suit meme. No one touches where your bathing suit covers, except parents and the doctor.

Of course, in a case like this, it wouldn't have mattered, but that mom was just as culpable in not protecting her daughters. I'd like to see HER rot in prison.

[Clark2008]

56. Well, you got my point - I meant that they should teach

them about abuse and when to recognize and report it. :)

And, agree - the "Mom" should rot in prison with the step-"dad."

Oh - and thanks for the compliment on my children. They are not abused. Amused, maybe, but abused - hardly. :7

[Madspirit]

67. An Aside...Beautiful Kids You Have...n/t

[Ms. Toad]

98. You really need both...

The bathing suit meme is important - but it is most useful with abuse which turns quickly into full scale sexual abuse, which often is not the case with familiar offenders - or "skilled" stranger offenders. The shortcoming is that the bathing suit meme doesn't ingrain the right to set personal boundaries for your entire body.

All children need to learn that they have the right to say "no" to any touching (which is part of the good touch/bad touch education I used to do). When mom and dad stand by when "uncle joe" insists on a good-bye kiss (or even berate you for refusing to kiss him), why on earth would you think it was ok to say "no" to "uncle joe" when your parents aren't around and he starts being more physically affectionate - back rubs, sitting on his lap, hand holding. With familiar familiar abusers it doesn't usually hit the bathing suit area for months, or even years, well into the emotional manipulation which makes it very hard to draw a line.

You are absolutely right, though, sometimes touching feels good physically and that is incredibly confusing when the good body feeling doesn't match with the icky mental feeling. Also, sometimes the sexual abuse is the only pleasant physical encounter with an adult whose touch often causes physical pain - so in an odd twist, the sexual abuse gets associated with times you want to be around your abuser - that makes for some real challenges to developing healthy adult relationships.

FWIW - and in response to these threads in general rather than your post - I wouldn't call this sex education. The message that children have a right to say "no" to any touching from adults won't go over well with quite a few parents, so being permitted to say that will make it hard enough to get into the classrooms without adding the additional barrier that calling it "sex education" adds. It's really part of safety education (how to escape from a fire, how to answer the phone or door (or not) when your parents aren't home, what to do when crossing the street, etc.)

[Midlodemocrat]

22. One more thing. Beautiful pic!

Adorable new baby and big brother.

[verse18]

23. Exactly

I have worked for years doing comprehensive family evaluations on children and their families with a history of abuse and neglect. It's important to begin teaching children how to recognize abusive behaviors, not just sexual, but physical, emotional and verbal abuse as well as neglect. In our state, anyone, regular joes and professionals, are legally required to report abuse even if it's only a suspicion. As a Social Worker and a community advocate, I would like to see more regular people "getting into everybody's business" when it comes to child abuse and neglect because child abuse is much more pervasive in this country that most people want to admit and it thrives in secrecy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. It falls under the sex ed umbrella

Which is under the health education umbrella. Semantics - the only reason Obama is taking heat over this.

[Igel]

29. Again, and not to you the first time.

Semantics is the study of meaning. The difference between "Obama" and "amoeba" is (a) phonetics and (b) the semantics we ascribe to the two words.

Communication is usually based upon a mutually accepted system of sound-meaning correspondences. Now, there isn't an "idealized community of speakers" for this to apply to--Chomsky's biggest mistake, at least in linguistics, one that's undermined almost anything he's had to say on the subject, and one that he just can't let go of. Still, having such a community is a decent goal.

Let's work for it.

[gollygee]

31. it's sexual abuse education

"sex" isn't a bad word. It's useful to signify exactly what they'll be talking about. Not abuse, but specifically sexual abuse. It really is a kind of sex education - in this case an education about sexual boundaries.

[Pacifist Patriot]

48. Sex ed is an umbrella term and I think that is what may be causing..

difficulty in this discussion.

Human sexuality includes a broad range of information including both "good touch/bad touch" and "the birds and the bees."

I will never understand why cultural and religious prudishness continues to trump our children's need to know age appropriate information about their own bodies. I just met a 14 year old boy who doesn't even know what a uterus is.

[EFerrari]

18. Once I helped a coworker disentangle herself from a husband

who was sexually abusing their three kids. It was horrendous. My friend was devastated when she found out.

And she seemed to be bonded to him in some kind of traumatic way, so it was really difficult for her to follow through. My friend was a wonderful woman who was fiercely protective of her kids but there was definitely something like enmeshment going on there. We were all so proud of her for putting one foot in front of the other for the kids -- and for herself, too.

About eight of us helped her relocate to a different state and even spent the last night with her because we were all afraid he'd show up and act out. I didn't tell her, but I disconnected the phone so he couldn't call her and work his "magic" on her.

Their youngest was four years old. :(

[ThomCat]

57. You are wonderful.

:hug:

I am so glad to hear that you went that far to help her. So few people are willing to get involved.

[EFerrari]

81. The whole office adored this lady. It was so sad to lose her

but there was no way he'd leave her or the kids alone if she stayed here.

It was pretty funny the night we all camped out in her livingroom -- even our MANAGER, lol. We'd had a company picnic that day and I had them load the kegger in my car and everybody just followed it to my friend's house. Worked pretty well! :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

119. Thank you for doing that

I remember a cop saying that he had sadly concluded that women will pick their male partners over their kids nearly every time.

[Rosemary2205]

32. This isn't about sex, it's about child abuse. Sex ed would not change that.

rape is never about the sex.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. In kindergarten, they are taught about good touch and bad touch

They are taught about personal space and respecting boundaries. That would cover what they need to know to protect themselves from predators like this monster in the OP.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. True, but too many parents consider...

"good touch/bad touch" education to be part of a sexuality education curriculum and object on those grounds. So many schools shy away from imparting even that much information.

Child abuse that includes sexual abuse could be exposed if children were taught age appropriate information that would enable them to seek help. Unfortunately our social prudishness has prevented many schools from teaching even the minimum about our own bodies.

[aikoaiko]

37. It sounds like these poor girls knew their step-father's behavior was wrong, but didn't know how ..

...to tell anyone. I'm not sure sex education is the answer for this one.

[Catherine Vincent]

40. This man is 59 years old now and has been getting away with

this abuse for over 30 years. This is wrong on so many levels I can't even think straight!

[Forkboy]

41. K&R

[electron_blue]

53. How about instead of 'sex ed' we start teaching about abusive behavior.

Including sexual abuse (rape), physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, ALL abuse. What it is, how to handle it, how to deal with it. This is not really an example of needing sex ed, but education of boundaries and what to do when they are overstepped, especially in this tragic case of sexual abuse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. That is what sex ed in kindergarten covers

[Sanctified]

61. And sex ed would have prevented this how?

Do you think the little girls did not know what their father was doing was wrong? Do you think that when the teacher gets to oral sex and intercourse the little girls would have said, "oh yeah my dad and I do that every night."

Get real sex ed would not have solved what happened to those little girls, children who are abused fear their abuser that is why this shit goes on for so long, it's not because they don't know what sex is. Teachers will never have the ability to prevent sex abuse from happening, teachers can be trained to identify warning signs that a child may be being abused and address it then but it still will not prevent the abuse only end it.

There is no reason to have sex ed in Kindergarten, adults need to learn to let little children be little children, sex ed classes should begin when a child is about 10 years old a couple years before puberty.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Sex ed in kindergarten covers good touch and bad touch

And yes, I know for a fact that these little girls might have come forward and told on their stepdad if they had been taught that what he was doing was wrong. I also know for a fact that teachers HAVE prevented sexual abuse.

I could tell you stories that would rip your heart out. And if the schools in this country EVER cave in to the people who think that sex ed in kindergarten is wrong, I will be one of the first ones complaining about the ignorance of NOT including sex ed in kindergarten.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

83. spoken like a person who was never sexually abused as a kid.

:mad:

[Sanctified]

88. Spoken like a person who only knows how to make an ad hominem argument.

n/t

[Eric J in MN]

62. Because there are a small number of scumbags doesn't mean...

...that you shouldn't let kids be kids.

Don't mess up the minds of every kid with age-inappropriate instruction.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Um...

exactly how would this mess kids up?

You know, if you teach a kindergardner about touching, they're not going to turn into a herpes-ridden, cockney-spewin, victorian era child prostitute, right?

Just checking.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. How is this age-inappropriate?

Sex ed in kindergarten is in the state standards. Those are written by people who have expertise in age-appropriate instruction.

[Madspirit]

68. k&r...n/t

[acmavm]

77. People here talk about wanting to get government and corporate

America out of our private lives. Quit tapping our phones, reading our mail, running our lives.

Now some of you want to invite the school system into it, allow them to stick their noses into areas that is strictly a parent's or the person raising the child's duty and business.

Friggin' amazing.

[Disturbed]

82. Why do RWingers & Fundies object to Sex Education in School?

They have been doing so for many years. Anybody care to guess why they vehemently object to that?

[Catherine Vincent]

85. The two girls in the article couldn't depend on their "parent" for guidance. n/t

[blogslut]

95. I live in a small town

There are young kids that run free all over my neighborhood - no parents in sight. According to my state's Sexual offender registry, there are at least four offenders that live within a six block radius of my house. In other words my town has a lot of clueless parents who believe their children are 'safe' because our town is small. Parental responsibility is all well and good but the reality is many parents to this day still don't get it.

Another reality is that so many sexual/emotional abuse cases aren't the actions of strangers but rather the actions of family members. Good touch/Bad touch education not only informs the children about protecting their bodies, it tells those children that they have someone else to turn to other than their abusive/negligent caretakers. Abusive caretakers sure as hell aren't going to let their victims know that fact.

[Solon]

99. School is about more than just reading, writing, and arithmetic...

School's also about learning critical thinking, appropriate social behaviors, including sex and sex/abuse related, and how to communicate effectively about all of those. You know, before schools started "meddling" as you put it, teenage pregnancy was much higher than today, child abuse was almost never reported, and rarely prosecuted, and graduation rates, especially of girls, was extremely low.

[AwakeAtLast]

108. Please tell me how an abused child can get this information, please

How do you propose intervention, since they obviously can't rely on their parents?

[Jed Dilligan]

84. There is no statute of limitations on the infant murder,

but it's likely that, minus preservation and a coffin, those bones have completely deteriorated. What a terrible case. I wonder why there is a SOL on child abuse?

I would laugh if I wasn't crying so hard at the poster who claims child abuse is "not an everyday thing."

[Katherine Brengle]

103. Because our society doesn't really give a fuck about rape.

:shrug:

[Exultant Democracy]

87. So it seems like we just need to change the name to something that

is also "more age appropriate" so that we can get on with the important business of protecting the children. We are smart enough to know that as soon as we say "sex" everyone is going to flip out so lets just call it a "health and safety" class, no one argues against health and safety.

[Mythsaje]

92. I can actually see both sides of this argument...

My oldest son was molested, apparently, on more than one occasion by different individuals. He'd had that particular talk but it didn't seem to have any long-term effect. He was frightened or cajoled into it--I'm not sure exactly how it happened--and it took him years to actually tell anyone about it. He was still seeing a psychiatrist about the FIRST case when it happened to him again.

I wish there was an easy answer to all of this, but as far as I can tell, there isn't. Teaching good touching/bad touching doesn't do anything to help when people get through the barriers through whatever method they use.

Some people are worried that people who are, to them, virtual strangers, will sexualize their kids, make them aware of things they wouldn't ordinarily be aware of. Thing is, kids will often explore these things amongst themselves with no input whatsoever anyway. When two five-year olds are playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" behind the garage, it's not evidence of anything but curiosity and ignorance. Some people take it to mean more, though, from both the fundy perspective of "sex is bad!" and the protectionist stance of "it's evidence of abuse!"

Again, I wish I had easy answers to all of this.

[Decruiter]

96. There are no easy answers to this. I understand P2bL's position, sort of.

I have a few personal experiences with just about everything anyone has had to say in this thread and it is disturbing.

In the late 60's, early 70's this information on what was wrong or where to seek help was simply just not available. Had it been, I would have taken advantage of it. I went to my mom when I was 12, I went to a counselor (he was more than a counselor, I just don't remember his title) at the YMCA when I was 17 (he wound up trying to counsel my family in a crisis). Child abuse, especially sexual abuse (by a family member was off the map then, trust me, I truly do know) rather exploded in the late 70's into the 80's and here we are today. My experience did not happen in the hills or in some small town. I was going to school in one of the top ten school districts in the nation at the time, you know someplace where nothing like incest could possibly happen.

I have a 19 year old daughter and I went through the "trauma" of a game of "let's play doctor" be visited upon her when she was very young, I was ever vigilant and caught it before the moment went too far.

Like I said in the beginning, I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure "sex education" in kindergarten is not quite the solution, neither is "good touch, bad touch".

Just my small two cents worth.

[Katherine Brengle]

101. jesus fucking christ

I think I'm going to throw up.

There should be NO statutes of limitations on this kind of shit. My best friend finally got the guts to turn in her father a couple of years ago and because she was only legally able to report what happened to her within 5 years of her 18th birthday, nothing ever happened to him.

There is no fucking justice in this world for women and children.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. Waitasec. Waitafuckingsec. He commited MURDER! INFANTICIDE! There's statute of limitations on THAT?

:wtf:

[Midlodemocrat]

107. That was my initial reaction as well. The only thing I can figure

is that since the body was burned, there's no evidence. :wtf:

[AwakeAtLast]

109. If they had aborted the fetus, there would be picketing

But since the child was actually born, no need to care about it. I would like to think I don't need this :sarcasm: but in this thread, I'm protecting myself!

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. They need to find a body

[porphyrian]

111. That is so fucked up. - n/t