Michael Vick and Duke Lacrosse....

[IndianaJones]

At this point, shortly after an indictment, is it more improbable to believe that Vick was not personally involved in dog fighting than it was to believe that the Duke Lacrosse players were not involved in a gang rape? Could it be as he claims, that he was taken advantage of in his generosity to family/friends?

Was the hostile atmosphere here similar when the men at Duke were indicted for rape?

[northzax]

1. possible, sure

but not as likely. the political circumstances are different, the DAs are different. Nifong went after the Dukies as part of the town-gown dynamic in Durham. this is a federal prosecutor going after a celebrity, with at least four witnesses to back it up. Nifong indicted and then investigated. This case has had a task force working on it for several months, as recently as a month ago, there were reports that there was not enough evidence to indict Vick, something has changed since then.

[Captain Hilts]

2. As a property owner, he can't just claim ignorance of what was going on...

on his property for an extended period of time and get off free.

Again, this is being charged as a conspiracy, so even if Vick did not personally mistreat the animals, if his co-defendents are convicted, Vick is toast.

The charges come from a federal six month investigation, not some errant local prosecutor.

[CookCountyResident]

41. Have you read the 18-page indictment?

<A href="http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html">Link on TheSmokingGun.com to the 18-page Federal indictment against "PURNELL A. PEACE a/k/a "P-Funk" and "Funk", QUANIS L. PHILLIPS a/k/a "Q", TONY TAYLOR a/k/a "T" AND MICHAEL VICK a/k/a "Ookie"</a>

[CookCountyResident]

43. ESPNNews video link

ESPN news video link

The indictment also outlined a rough chronology:

— In March 2003, after a pit bull from Bad Newz Kennels lost in a fight, it said Peace consulted with Vick about the losing dog's condition, then executed it by wetting it with water and electrocuting it;

— In March 2003, after two Bad Newz Kennels dog lost fights to dogs owned by a cooperating witness, it alleged that Vick retrieved a bag containing $23,000 and gave it to the owner of the winning dogs. One of the fights had a $20,000 purse;

— In the fall of 2003, a person witnessing a dog fight involving one of the dogs trained by Bad Newz Kennels incurred the ire of another cooperating witness by yelling out Vick's name in front of the crowd during the fight.

It also said that after establishing Bad Newz Kennels in early 2002, Vick and the others obtained shirts and headbands promoting their affiliation with the kennel.

After a police raid on the property in April, Vick said he was rarely at the house, had no idea it may have been used in a criminal enterprise. He blamed family members for taking advantage of his generosity.

On Vick's Web site, he lists his birthplace as Newport News, "a.k.a. BadNews."

[MrCoffee]

3. federal prosecutors don't indict people on a whim

and yes, there was a posse here ready to hang the Duke lacrosse players.

[bluestateguy]

7. REALLY?

Does Mike Espy ring a bell?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

13. sounds like the prosecutor dropped the ball...

In Dec. 1997, Tyson Foods Inc., the nation's largest poultry processor, pleaded guilty to giving Espy more than $12,000 in illegal gifts, and agreed to pay $6 million in fines and investigative expenses.

Per Wiki

sP

[demgurl]

4. There are still people here who believe the Duke players are guilty.

There were tons of posts condemning then even when they were vindicated.

[Lex]

23. Nope. Not true. I can't find one DU'er saying they are guilty of rape

after the charges were dropped and the AG's office said they were not guilty of rape.

[bluestateguy]

29. One poster has been insisting that they paid off the accuser to go away

Due to DU rules I can't reveal the poster's screen name. Others continue to pout that "well something happened at that party" and imply only that they "got off" because they had pricey lawyers.

[Lex]

31. Something did happen at that party.

Something went terribly awry. Underage drinking and strippers and insanity that resulted in lies and false accusations.

I don't think anyone thinks a rape happened anymore, except the mentally ill girl who accused them. The AG basically says she still thinks it happened but she has serious problems.

[demgurl]

39. Are you bieng sarcastic?

I just want to know how I should reply if you are trying to be earnest or not to reply if you are just making fun of all the people who said they were still guilty.

[Lex]

45. No, just some links will do.

Where DU'ers insisted the players were guilty of rape after the charges were dropped and the AG's office cleared them of committing rape.

[hughee99]

51. Maybe this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=657461#657531

Some "highlights" ...

"With the rich Duke boys it's likely she and the witnesses were bought off."

"There was never even a trial. The boys parents probably bought off the witnesses."

"I have no Sympathy for the Duke lacrosse players. They are a bunch of f*cking criminals Either they raped her or they hired her for sex. Case closed."

"A Black stripper hired by white rich college kids. I think the boys did a pretty good job of slamming her while they hired her."

[bluestateguy]

5. The questions you have raised are for a jury to decide

and Vick enjoys a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

The NFL can suspend him after, and if, he is convicted.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. the NFL could suspend him now

and this is much different than the Duke case after about a week. The Duke players were producing proof that they could not have been involved in the act and also the person making the accusation was changing her story. There were holes all over. But Vick has done nothing more than say that he is sorry that his fans are having to go through this and that his relatives are to blame...me thinks he could come up with something more substantial if he wished to defend himself in the public eye. While he is not speaking on this matter to clear his name...that will not convict him anywhere but in the world of public opinion. If the feds have the evidence they seem to have, Vick better have more than that in his 'playbook' if he plans to stay out of prison.

sP

[Captain Hilts]

19. He has no inherent right to play in the NFL if he violates their code of conduct-

He's been in trouble before and they have the right to tell him to take time off to get his life in order. If you are the owner of the Falcons, you have to be really pissed. It looks like Vick lied to the team's owner.

But, again, you don't get away with having illegal activities taking place on your property. Ignorance is not a good enough excuse.

And, as this is a conspiracy charge, if he co-defendents get convicted, he's toast too, even though he might not have personally killed a dog.

[bluestateguy]

27. Right, but if he's not guilty, he may not have violated the code

So we have to let the process play out.

I don't recall that Kobe Bryant was suspended while the bogus "rape" charges were unfolding against him.

[Captain Hilts]

30. Kobe's not in the NFL. And other NFL players have not been convicted before suspensions...

The NFL is cracking down. Appearances matter.

And the NFL doesn't want the reputation the NBA has.

[pettypace]

54. what reputation?

You are aware the NFL has significantly more players involved in legal affairs than the NBA.

The NBA has Kobe, Artest, and Stephen Jackson. Who else? USA Today had about 50 players one day on the sports page that were arrested. The NFL has given us Nate Newton, Rae Carruth, Bill Romanowski, Bam Morris, and countless others.

Here's a list of NFL players arrested...in 2006.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nfl/longterm/2006/nfl_chart_12162006.html

I'd think you need to transpose the two leagues.

[LanternWaste]

48. The judge and jury has the responsibility of presumption of innocence

And anyone on DU who thinks he's either guilty or innocent will make zero difference to the lawyers, the judge or the jury. The judge and jury has the responsibility of presumption of innocence, not anyone else (as though it would even make a difference...)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. I think gang rape is a much more serious charge than dog fighting.

I also think this Vick thing pretty much amounts to celebrity gossip, and flamebaiting.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. torturing animals for sport and entertainment is gossip and

flamebaiting to you? just wow...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Torturing animals is a serious crime.

But the only reason anybody's talking about it is because a celebrity did it.

So yeah, I think it's just celebrity gossip. Nancy Grace style stuff.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. sorry...but I am glad it is happening to a celebrity

to bring this thing more to the forefront...but I can see the Graceness of it all...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. You're glad it's happening to a celebrity?

Makes it more entertaining, does it?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. nope...not about entertaining...

i couldn't care less...pro football is not my thing and i couldn't care less that it is a football player...however, the fact that something as heinous as dog fighting is getting the attention that it is...yeah, that makes me glad it is a celeb. In fact, it is forcing legislators in GA to look at enacting laws to make Vick's alleged activities illegal in GA. What he did would not have been illegal in GA as you have to be caught at a dogfight to have broken a law in GA.

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. You just said you were glad.

:shrug:

What Vick did is illegal in GA, and that's why he's been indicted.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. no it is not...

Vick is facing a federal indictment. In GA you have to be AT a dogfight to violate the law. That is why is facing further indictments in VA and not in GA.

sP

[CookCountyResident]

44. What Vick did is illegal in not only GA, but VA

... where the crimes took place. Also this is a FEDERAL indictment because of the interstate trafficking, gambling, transportation of illegal activity across state lines.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

46. in GA you are only in violation of the law

if you are caught while PRESENT at a dogfight...they are NOW addressing laws to compensate for what Vick did for the housing, financing, training and transportation.

sP

OnEdit :

Currently, Georgia has a fairly weak dog fighting law...the current law which basically limits any prosecution for dog fighting to those caught in the act of actually goading or allowing dogs to fight. O.C.G.A. § 16-12-37

[LanternWaste]

49. gives the issue itself and those discussing it much greater traction

"Makes it more entertaining, does it?" Can't answer to that, but it certainly gives the issue itself and those discussing it much greater traction...

[Myrina]

15. ... may we douse you with water and electrocute you ...

... or hang you after you've been mauled to a near dead bloody pulp?

and then will you state that its not torture?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Who ever said it wasn't torture?

See, this is the exact sort of stuff I'm talking about.

Nobody's saying what Vick is indicted for is good.

Nobody's saying Vick shouldn't be in legal trouble.

Nobody thinks, I'm willing to bet, that this would be national news if it wasn't a celebrity involved.

But for some reason people are going nuts over it.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

25. Is your point that, when a high profile "celebrity" type . . .

. . . is charged with a crime, it attracts more national media attention than when an unknown, "average" citizen is charged with same crime?

Well, yeah. Sort of falls within the very definition of "celebrity."

[cboy4]

17. I agree that rape is a more serious charge than dog fighting, but

how does the passionate debate over the Vick incident amount to flamebaiting?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. What is there to debate about, cboy4?

[cboy4]

26. It's a discussion board dude. One could argue the same thing

about Cindy Sheehan, and whether Bush should be impeached or anything else.

I personally think there are too many Michael Vick threads floating around, but who cares?

Nobody had a gun to your head, forcing you to click on them.

Right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. You're dodging the question.

Basically, everybody here is of the same opinion on Vick.

So what's their to debate about?

[cboy4]

32. If everyone here is "of the same opinion," then that pretty

much discounts your claim that the topic is flamebait.

I already told you there are too many Michael Vick threads.

But who cares?

Don't click on them if you're so bent out of shape.

Right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. I'm saying everybody's talking past each other.

"much discounts your claim that the topic is flamebait."

No, I'm saying everybody's yelling, but nobody's saying anything. That's what I mean by flamebait.

If it were a real debate, it wouldn't be flame bait.

"I already told you there are too many Michael Vick threads."

And I agree. That's what I mean by everybody talking past each other.

[DainBramaged]

53. I'm so skerred

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :hi: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Common Sense Party]

55. Everyone here has the same opinion about Bush and Iraq.

What's to debate? Isn't everyone "talking past each other"?

[onenote]

10. the atmosphere here towards the Duke players was venomous

in the early stages of the reporting of that incident there were many DUers who had the Duke players tried and convicted in their minds. Indeed,some DUers still regard the Duke lacrosse players as guilty (although its not always clear of what). Some counseled patience and suggested that it would be wrong to jump to conclusions before the evidence was in, but that sentiment did not become more widespread until some of the evidence casting doubt on the alleged victim's story began to surface (which admittedly was pretty quickly).

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

12. The federal indictment against Vick . . .

. . . makes reference to four "cooperating witnesses" whose testimony placed Vick at the property and which described him as participating directly in the training and the fight of dogs.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the allegations are necessarily true. But the nature of the evidence that the feds apparently have here are of a different character than that which Nifong had in Durham.

[Virginia Dare]

34. There have been rumors here in Virginia..

that there is video tape of Vick engaging in some of these activities. It's not looking good for him at this point.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

36. I think I read something to that effect at one point . . .

. . . but the feds' indictment makes no mention of it. Not that that's dispositive of the tape's existence. The feds don't have to show all their cards at this point.

[Virginia Dare]

42. I think they probably do have it..

lots of VA Tech people didn't want to believe that he was directly involved, but when this little tidbit came out, the apologists started to disappear. This shit has been going on for a while with him, he has never had to own up or claim responsibility for any of his behavior. He's in it deep this time.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. and I wonder what the bidding is at between the major networks

to get their hands on THIS tidbit if it actually exists?

That would be the end...

sP

[coco77]

33. Too bad that..

people don't get this upset when there are murders of people in this country everyday.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

40. Oh, I think people do get this upset . . .

. . . when there are celebrities involved in the murders.

[Neshanic]

38. Read the indictment. He was present many times.

[LanternWaste]

47. I don't believe that any attitude,

I don't believe that any attitude, whether positive or negative illustrated on DU at the time of the Lacrosse players had any real bearing or consequence as to his trial or the verdict.

A few lawyers, some jurors and a judge will have bearing on the Vick case and the verdict, but DU'ers posting will have zero effect. People venting will have no effect. DU is no a court of law and thus, the "innocent prior to finding guilty" is, for all intents and purposes irrelevant as we can find him neither.

Venting about animal abuse, whether real, not, or even imagined seems kinda normal to me...

[Louie the XIV]

50. The Duke and Vick cases are completely different situations

One was a rape allegation by a mentally disturbed stripper with no eyewitnesses that was prosecuted by a local DA looking to get his name in the paper and get re-elected.

The other is a complicated federal indictment that alleges movement of animals and money over state lines and has a number of collaborating witnesses.

Comparing the two shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal system and the nature of criminal prosecutions in this country.

[NaturalHigh]

52. If the Duke accuser's supporters here on DU...

had gotten their way, the three lacrosse players would have been castrated immediately after the indictment was issued. It was really ugly, and it's still impossible to get a lot of them to admit that the whole case was made up by a crazy stripper and pushed by a corrupt prosecutor.