Why we need radical feminists

[undergroundpanther]

Introducing my Warrior


I got an email this morning from someone. It was an email talking about her repeated rape at the hands of a young man. This is not the first such letter I have received in my email and the feelings it evoked in me were neither uncommon, nor unique insofar as I have had them before.

The pain from these women bleeds through in their words, the screams I hear when I read their stories resonates so deeply inside of me that I tremble with barely contained rage, fear and sadness.

I have received several such letters since starting this blog. And more confessions and stories and voices than I can separate in the clutter that is my mind. Each and every woman on this site has a story, chances are good that it is that story that brought them here in the first place. Now, those stories may not be alike in the details, not every woman has been raped, not every woman has been abused, but every one of them has found a thread of commonality in a radical voice. For whatever reason they have seen the cancer infecting this society, seen its ugly face and the barren wasteland and dead women it has left behind.

I cried this morning. I locked myself in my bedroom for a few moments and I cried. I cried the tears of sadness and rage that explode from my soul each and every time I read another story. I sobbed quietly beneath my covers, not wanting to upset my children who were busy reading their books for school. I cried the tears of the victim and survivor and I cried for yet another life destroyed, shattered by the force that is male pride and entitlement.

As I read that email this morning, as I have done on other mornings when a commenter has been moved to write to me, I felt rage burning fresh in my blood. I felt sadness and a loss so deadly that it brings everything home to me. It reminds me, in violent waves, about the society in which we women are forced to live. A society in which half of the population hates us for no reason I can discern.

This has been a trying week for me. I'm working on Friday fun with Site meter and the searches that are there are terrifying in their honesty. "Beautiful girls being raped", "Sluts being beaten and raped", the searches march across my screen, a grim reality and testament to the world in which I live. It is a testament to the violence of men, the undiluted disgust and hatred with which they view us.

And on this morning, there was another letter, another story, another scream from another woman who has joined the rank and file of the millions of survivors. Always, there is confusion in me when I see the proof of male violence and hatred towards women. Ever there is confusion, a sort of disjointed question that hangs thickly in the air, tainting my skin and forcing itself to be articulated.

"Why?"

That is the scream that rips through me. It is the question that lies unanswered and unspoken. Why?

Why? Why? Why? WHY???? Why do they do this to us? Why do they hate with such ferocity? Why do they spoil and silence these beautiful voices that are just waiting to be heard? Why do they contaminate and rip and tear and steal from women?

This is the word, the question that I asked myself as I cried this morning. This is the one thought that tore through me, demanding an answer, but I know that no answer will ever come. No answer can quiet that scream. When they say, "It's because I wanted to", it doesn't make it stop. I want to say "WHY did you want to?", "What did we do to you?", "Why didn't you care?", "Why does our pain bring you such intense pleasure?" Why? Why? Why?

They cannot provide a suitable answer, they cannot quiet the "Why?" flitting in and out of the corners of my mind. They cannot provide the answer anymore than they can give that girl back her life, anymore than they can undo the damage they wreak. There is no easy answer; there is only the reality of the millions of screaming voices, the millions of voices that have been silenced.

People come to me and say that radical feminism cannot be taken seriously because the women in it are largely composed of survivors (although, they say 'victims'). I say that it is because of this that radical feminism needs to be taken seriously. We are the proof of male violence, right here is the most honest and sincere proof you can find. It is because we are so largely comprised of so many survivors, and not just survivors of rape and molestation, but survivors of male pride and violence in all of it's forms it takes, that we need to be taken seriously.

Everyone reading this has a story. Kaka Mak, Delphyne, Ginmar, Laura, Mink Stole, Kelly Bell, and all the others (I know your names but I can't list them all, they ring through my head even as I type and I know that the numbers are too large to list) all of you have a story, a need, a desire. Each and every one of you has experienced the proof of male entitlement and violence. No, chances are good that not every one of you has experienced rape or sexual assault, but ALL of you have seen the truth and ALL of you have been affected by the hatred that men show us.

Occasionally, one of you reaches out to me, trying to make sense of it all and I, sadly, have no sense to give. I have no greater wisdom, no sage advice, no greater understanding of the unending question of "Why?" but there can be no doubt that your stories are just as real.

From the rage, to the sadness, to the helplessness and back to the rage, the stories are there. The violence, the entitlement, the ego, the aggression, all of us have felt it to some degree or another. From the woman who spends her entire day scrubbing toilets for minimum wage, to the women who have been harassed in the park or on the street all the way to the women who vowed to love a man only to find herself the recipient of his fists, down to the woman who went on that date with the 'nice guy' and ended her night being raped. All of you have stories and it is these stories and this deep seated, undying desire to make it stop that brings radicals together.

The letter I got this morning affected me down to that primal part of my soul and I felt the desperation that so many of us have felt. The overwhelming sadness and helplessness of it all. It woke that sleeping warrior within me who first cried for the loss of yet another woman, who screamed and mourned and sobbed for the loss of yet another one of us. But now she is angry again. And her anger feeds my desire, it is her indignation at the masses of women left behind, sold out, forgotten and silenced that compels me to push forward, even when I stop for a moment to sob and regain my footing. She fills me with anger and rage and focused energy to try and accomplish the impossible. And only when the rapes, beatings, and cycle of male violence has stopped will she be sated.

I stand in the face of these men who search for, "slut rape", and "sexy girls being beaten and raped". I stand in the face of all the men that have stolen my sense of safety and security. I stand in your face Richard, and Scott and Kevin. I stand in the faces of Steven and Shawn and Brian. I stand in the faces of all the men who would take what I never offered and I stand in the face of the fucker who stole the innocence and youth from the girl who wrote me just today.

I am your worst fucking nightmare.

Here is my promise to you Mr. "Story-Snuff". I will be your conscience if you refuse to have one. I will be the screams that you tried to silence. I am your worst nightmare, the walking skeleton of the dead bodies of the souls that you destroyed with your violence, with your entitlement and with your ego. I will not shut up until you have felt, tenfold, the pain that you have wreaked upon the women you have encountered. I, and others like me, will force your eyes open to the pain that you have caused and if I have one desire that burns through me with the fiercest passion I have ever known it is this: I want for you to never have another moment of peace in your lives. I want you to never sleep soundly again, I want the souls of these women to haunt you for all eternity, even into your next life and the lives beyond that.

I am no longer a victim, I am a survivor and I will continue to tell every person I meet of you and your kind. I will force-feed the pain of millions down your putrid mouth until you vomit it up, then, I will force it down again.

You, all of you, every one of you that come to this blog looking for, "Sexy women being raped and beaten", YOU are my mark and my crosshairs are firmly on you. You are the reason that we all have stories, you are the reason that every day more women, thousands more women, millions in the world, join the rank and file of the survivors and my voice is aimed at you.

I will not let you forget the screams until they have stopped. I am the ever present reminder of your fucked up entitlement and I will not be silenced until my ashes are thrown across the ground. My voice is small on its own, but it is a part of a sea of voices, a vast army of voices that is growing larger and stronger by the day. Each and every time you beat another woman, or rape another woman, or push your fucked up entitlement onto another woman, in whatever form it takes, you create another one of me. Do you hear that? You create another me.

The numbers keep rising and when they rise up and the sobs turn to cries and the cries to screams and the warrior in us that YOU created and YOU awoke comes seeking her vengeance then you will know that it was YOU who created us.


To my readers, I hear your voices, I believe your truths and you are not alone. Those of you who have felt male violence and who are scattered and afraid and unsure about yourselves take heart for there are millions of us in this world and those who have found our anger and our rage will speak until you feel able to do so. There are millions of hands extended to you, keep talking, keep speaking, your voice is powerful and your stories are truth. Don’t stop writing to me, and don’t stop talking, your voice is perhaps your most valuable weapon and your truth is an inspiration.
http://genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=11


T'Maat Sekhmet!!!

[ThomCat]

1. Radical feminists got feminism taken seriously.

If you aren't a radical feminist then you not pushing hard enough to make a dent in the sexism and misogyny.

Face it, a lot of people who claim to be in favor of women's right are just talking. They won't actually do anything to advance women's safety, women's rights, or women's equality. Radical feminists push until something gets done. They have forced many institutions to give a little, to compromise just a bit, which is far more than anyone would accomplish by politely asking and begging.

Radical feminists are the reason why women still have some right to choose.

Radical feminists are why many men no longer feel like they have a right to rape women. It's disgusting to remember that it used to be a very common idea that a guy had a right to whatever he could "take."

Radicals are important in every movement because the moderates are too busy giving ground to stay in the middle. It's the radicals who determine where the edges are, and therefore they also determine where that middle is that the moderates are trying so hard to own.

By pushing hard toward a goal, the radicals make sure that some small part of that goal is in the middle, and the moderates then take credit for it.

Yay! Radical Feminists!


And for those of you who didn't notice, I'm a guy cheerleading for feminism. Yes, it's about time we had more guy joining the fight.

[Berry Cool]

2. Good for both of you.

k&r

[undergroundpanther]

9. Hi ThomCat!!! hellYeah!

Up top I am male, down below female..So I know the dangers of the primal purity/disgust paranoia engines of fears of death helplessness and disgust of our own messy chaotic,animality driving the hateful social patriarchy.. I am a feminist and Very radical about it too.


I have no gender, and I don't want one.I am panther and a human being both, I am a creative Animal..Living in a messy,smelly, indifferent uncontrollable, dangerous world both civilized and wild, I am the Liminal zone!Twilight serves as a liminal time, between day and night.And I am not ashamed to be the dusk and the dawn at the same time..

However people who are scared of the amibiguous,different, life's unpredictability, and the wildness sure get bent out of shape about people like me.Oh well

[ThomCat]

14. However you choose to identify/define yourself (or don't)

you're an awesome person. I'm definitely a big fan of yours. :)

I've very pleased to be on the same side as you.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Wow!

And I am a fan of YOURS ThomCat!
Hell you are even using a feline moniker.Can't get better than that in an ally!!

[Chovexani]

63. UP you are one of my favorite DUers

And one of the reasons I've not completely given up on this place. You are seriously one of my heroes in life. :hug:

(I'm "kin" of a sort though I won't get into it in public. I'll just say I'm not entirely human-identified and will leave it at that.)

[Triana]

26. ..."it's about time we had more guys joining the fight."

ThomCat - I love you man!

Well, I don't know you but after all you just wrote - and especially that part - you know what I mean!.. (I hope)

:blush:

[ThomCat]

42. :)

:pals:

[EFerrari]

32. Hell, yes.

:applause:

[wicket]

45. "Yes, it's about time we had more guy joining the fight."

Amen & thank-you!!!!!

:yourock:

:hug:

[OzarkDem]

52. My son is an avowed feminist

He claims to be more radical than I. I'm very proud of him.

[ThomCat]

53. That. Is. Cool.

:)

Children should always be more radical than their parents.

[I Have A Dream]

75. i wish that I could recommend this post!

:hug:

[ThomCat]

193. Thank you.

:hug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. Radical feminist here. I never gave it that name before, but it's what I've always been. nt

[undergroundpanther]

11. welcome to the wild side

:yourock:

[Cerridwen]

4. #5 and onto the Greatest Page.

:kick:

[Beelzebud]

5. K&R For my sister, mother, and every woman that taught me to be a compassionate human being.

[JerseygirlCT]

6. Yes. nt

[malta blue]

7. K&R.

Thank you.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. Stunning. K & R.

Bookmarked. :kick:

MKJ

[femrap]

10. K & R...

Powerful writing. I hate the patriarchy.

[eridani]

12. Something to say to those who whine about "victimology"

OK, fellas--no more victims. Abolish the court system entirely. You get cheated, beaten up or robbed--don't get caught in the "victim" mentality--just suck it up and soldier on. Society owes nothing to "whiners". See how that works? If that's what's expected of women who are raped, it ought to work that way for everybody else too.

[undergroundpanther]

18. Oh the irony

When the rapist whimpers to a male dominated court the stupid vile excuse that is not an excuse,that she caused her self to be raped..Men still say this bullshit in rape cases as if it is an excuse, Saying well..she,was wearing a short skirt,she was an exotic dancer so she ASKED for it..NO SHE DID NOT...Men offer excuse after unexcusable excuse.I bet he wasn't whimpering like little boy with his dick caught in his zipper when he committed rape.

There is always the classic excuses,well she made me mad so I cracked her skull open. Or she didn't clean up the carpet fast enough so I broke her wrist..or HER, baby wouldn't shut up so I shook it to death and beat her for not taking care of MY child.... Or she drank too much and fell asleep on the sofa..and I just couldn't control my dick its my master I am just a poor slave to my hormones..Boo hoo!.. These are the pathetic EXCUSES of RAPIST ASSHOLES who deserve nothing but jail,and hate for the rest off his days..Pretending to be a helpless controlled by hormones and blaming his choice to rape on the victim..

It's disgusting and the fact some judges still buy that sort of blame the victim bullshit excuses by rapists in 2007 is really sickening.

[Donnachaidh]

21. try arguing with a guy who thinks rape is a *lust crime*

And thinks the courts are far too harsh on the perps. :puke:

[undergroundpanther]

37. I guess

If the courts are too sympathetic with rapists,rapists will not be held accountable..So,what If I blew a rapist away after not seeing justice done? What if that betrayal made me so angry I killed the rapist..What if made justice for myself, when others failed to..would I be excused like an angry jealous male?

Sometimes a guy gets excused if he catches his girlfreind in bed with someone else.He is excused under a "crime of passion".
His so called emotions of seeing his "property" being enjoyed by another made him lose it and kill his girlfreind.The same crime of passion excuse has been a defense argument for gay bashers too....

Well seeing a rapist get away with his crime , that really pisses me off. So under the crime of passion logic, I should not get any time for killing a rapist who gets away with rape than? Rapists getting away with rape really makes my blood boil..

Fair is fair. If guys can get away with murder and courts excuse murder if it was a crime of passion, Why can't I be excused too?

[ThomCat]

46. Because that defense seems to be reserved for guys.

Guys might have moments of temporary insanity due to emotion and passion, and it's usually accepted that it was momentary.

But let a woman (or especially someone of non-specific gender) have a moment of temporary insanity and you'll become a media icon for being permanently unstable and insane. There will be calls for your execution because you're a danger to society. And there will be no effort to help you or forgive you.

Help and forgiveness seem to be mostly reserved for men. And by "men" I mean "wealthy white men."

[DWilliamsamh]

275. Here Here!

I was once listening to a man who counsels physically and sexually violent offenders in an effort to change their behavior. He made one of the best points I have ever heard about these jerks.

A caller asked what his take was on the "lost control of my anger" excuse from the physically abusive. He answered that in his ten plus years of work, had noticed that all of these men, seemed to "lose control" when angry at their 58lb 6 year old, or their 5'2" 130Lb girlfriend. So when confronted with the excuse that they "just snapped" the doctor simply asks them if they had ever "just snapped" in a bar or work site when driven to exceeding anger by a 6'4" 230Lb man? Of course none of these cowards ever lost control in that circumstance, thus putting the lie to the notion that they had some kind of organic or serious physiological problem that rendered them helpless to control their monster anger.

By the same token, I bet if you asked the rapist bastards who said "she was asking for it" if they had ever walked up to an ATM machine that was being serviced by a couple armed guards, if he ever pushed the guards out of the way and attempted to empty the machine of its cash, I think we all know what the answer would be. Even though the guards where "asking for" someone to rob the machine, somehow I think these a-holes would be able to resist answering that call.

[woo me with science]

90. I agree with you except for one caveat.

Most people are not aware of the unfortunate persistence of bad therapy that CREATES victims by teaching people to uncover buried "memories" of abuse. It still goes on more than you know, and it is a terrible shame, because these destructive therapies drain scarce resources from people who have truly been abused.

Granted, the worst offenders now tend to be counselors in fundamentalist Christian churches. However, there are still a lot of feminist therapists who are duped by this garbage. For example, most people would be alarmed to realize how many people who staff women's centers are invested in the myth of recovered memories of abuse and still believe the conspiracy theories about widespread satanic ritual abuse networks.

A woman who seeks support is at risk for being taught by her therapist that her distresses mask a history of unremembered abuse, and she is at risk for being drawn into an extended therapy process that will teach her to assume the victim role and become sick and dependent. For every women who gets drawn into this process of imagining abuses that never happened, there is a woman out there who has actually been traumatized, remembers it very well, and will never receive support.

Yes, the victimologists are out there and practicing, and their activities drain much needed resources from actual victims.

[undergroundpanther]

204. Educate yourself about trauma,please

`1990's science,from the days of SRA, of Dr Laura,FMSF and The Rind report has been discredited by new imformation and science on trauma..


In dealing with survivors of trauma, those involved have split into two mutually suspicious and polarized camps. Trying to make up for years of neglect of traumatized clients, some clinicians have abandoned neutrality to believe all "memories." At the other extreme, members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation have blamed therapists for planting memories of abuse in the minds of vulnerable clients. Neither side understands how the brain stores memory.

The aftereffects of trauma has a signature.Science has found physical evidence.Certain behaviors and brain injuries are trauma induced.,like elevated cortisol levels in the blood and hypervilagance. It is psychiatric injury.
http://www.asca.org.au/childabuse/ca_traumaaffectsbrain.html
http://www.trauma-pages.com/trauma.php#SYMP
http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.html


Memories from horrible events can overwhelm the normal brain functions and the regular consciousness.Sometimes for quite a while.The victim feeling the distress of what happens tries to suppress it to get on with life. Sometimes that works for awhile. But triggers will force it back into awareness. Trauma literally burns the brain synapses.
Here is some photos of the damage
http://www.lawandpsychiatry.com/html/hippocampus.htm

When I used to cut my arms up,I did not feel the pain of it at all,but I was there slicing myself open to the muscle layers..how was I able to do that? My emotional pain was greater than physical pain and I was REGULATING my consciousness and the pain overwhelming it from a trigger,that triggered a memory of some event in my memory that hurt me worse than a gash.Cutting that way was to prevent a total breakdown or save myself from suicide a distraction and to "anchor" myself so I would know feel my own reality.

Trauma memories sometimes get stored in a different part of the brain than regular memories do.Trauma memories are put in the other parts of the brain depending on age when it happened or the nature of what happened.Sometimes the part of the brain where the memory is is not easily accessible to the wakeful conscious mind or available in it's entirety.
Because the brain at that time was is overwhelmed by what happened,memories of the event are activated by triggers so much they have symptoms. Denial and pain also inhibits the memories from being examined.

http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/Neuroarcheology.asp

That confusion does not mean traumatic events did not occur.

This is true for me..And I got Complex PSTD and Dissociation..
People who have been traumatized and have had these neuro-degenerative changes to the brain do not respond to pressure the way other people do. Under pressure they may feel and act as if they are being traumatized all over again. These traumatically created "emotional memories are forever," (van der Kolk, 1995, p.256) and new information or pressures are processed through that filter.

So.. Based in my experiences and with my experiences with a bad therapist and with a caring one..Trauma does effect you sometimes FOR LIFE.

The false memory syndrome group Is full of CRAP.

Research conducted over more than 100 years shows that the mind can avoid conscious narrative or visual recall of traumatic information and recover it years later. Several recent publications provide good overviews of the scientific support for recovered memories of sexual abuse survivors./7/

In studies dating back to the 19th century, French philosopher and psychologist Pierre Janet found evidence that victims of trauma experienced amnesia for some or all aspects of the trauma./8/ According to Janet, traumatic memories consist of images, sensations, and emotional and behavioral states. This is different from narrative memory-what laypeople commonly refer to as memory-otherwise known as symbolic or explicit memory.
Read more..http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/Murphy_Memory_Article.html


The FMSF is full of self serving perpetrators and has nambla members on their boards, that that are just rationalizing their"rights" to abuse people and to undermine survivors from seeing justice. FMSF supported crap claiming pedophilia was"healthy" called the Rind report.The rind report was discredited.It was a cooked book bull shit defending pedophiles using Freud's old denial,when he backtracked once he realized some of his patients were telling a truth he didn't want to hear.
http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/trauma/neuropsy.htm
So he called it all"fantasies" and every perpetrator who seeks to discredit survivors latches onto that betrayal Freud did because they don't want to be held accountable,a victim's memory of what they did and the fear they will tell is one way perpetrators crimes do haunt them,and to deny that motive in abusive people is foolish..

But unless you KNOW the history of the false memory hoax you wouldn't know it was a hoax.
There is no such thing as induced memories.Manipulation yes, but a manipulated person can be convinced to lie yes, but they are not motivated by lying about memories.They are lying because the therapists are meeting an unmet psychological need of theirs(like attention) and exploiting it to discredit other victims of abuse. A bad therapist is one of the most disgusting things on this earth.Just because some patient got caught in a manipulation dance with an asshole therapist does not erase the scares of trauma IF there are scars and any therapist worth their salt should know what to look for to determine this.

Everyone trances. Everyone goes into altered states,and repression of memories is NORMAL in human beings.Do you remember EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of everyday ?
No,you don't.Where did the memory of bored time,or monotonous times, or times where you were doing something and the hours slipped away, go to? By gosh it got repressed.
That is normal memory repression.

Trauma is a entirely different thing,those memories are not forgotten they are inaccessible to waking consciousness because of what part of the brain stores memories of a very emotionally charged and painful nature.And defensive asshole perps,who do their damnedest to make people they victimize FORGET it and deny it, demanding proof,can force the process of integration so clients to please others demands force their memories to fit into a scheme that may not be accurate.
There are asshole people with personal and political interests in NOT letting the client remember an event.These people need to shut the fuck up and stay out of the recovery process.

The FMSF is crap. They are discredited charlatans.
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn156a.htm

[woo me with science]

227. Undergroundpanther

self delete.

Good luck to you.

[Madspirit]

13. k&r...n/t

[emilyg]

15. K&R

[wicket]

16. Rad fem here!

I carry my NOW membership card in my wallet :D

K & R

:kick:

[me b zola]

17. k&r!

[shance]

20. Nice post UP.

Thanks.

;)

[mzmolly]

22. I would ask why feminism is a radical notion?

We still have work do.

Thank you for your thought provoking words.

[eridani]

23. Harking back to that old Rebecca West quote--

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i_only_know_that_people_call_me_a_feminist/223684.html

“I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.”

[mzmolly]

24. An excellent quote!

Thank you. :hi:

[wicket]

47. I have that quote on a button I got from NOW

:D

[Terri S]

272. My favorite of all time!! n/t

[schrodingers_cat]

25. I forged the fear that it put inside me into a sword, a hammer, and a shield.

I was thrown out with the trash as a child (to carry the family sins in solitude). I am now strong, successful, and work with a gaggle of strong successful female project managers in the construction industry. And I pay it all forward as often as i possibly can, because that is the promise that I made to myself when I had nothing to eat and no warm place to sleep.
If you ever see a homeless female child, of any age, please stop and think, just for a second, of the circumstances that would have put her in such a situation. And offer whatever small relief that you can. And do whatever you can to help her see that she can turn that dark fear inside her into something powerful, empathetic, and true. Underground Panther, there are so many stories..........

[undergroundpanther]

36. I know

I go to a place for counseling Sarc.
We need more places like Sarc.Sarc is the Sexual Assault resource center. They are awesome people.Another place, hearts and ears and on our own do support for GBLT and mental illness outside the 'system'.We need to build shelter, make havens,asshole free zones,places without domination,AND DEFEND THEM from this sexist ignorant sociopath culture,we need to do this for people like US, The women, people of color,the disabled,the creative,the intelligent,the gays , the trans-people and mentally ill people. Vulnerable people who want to be who they are, have a chance to live, to learn to love and to trust others,to find security in the new community, and live in peace together.. We need to build our own webs of support, our own places of refuge, make our own culture,support it and defend it regardless of the empire that wants us gone, because if we don't do this,the dominator's would not do it for us, because they want people like us, dead, silent and obedient ,isolated,self loathing,traumatized,fearful and subjected.We are not human beings in their eyes.


But IF we are precious to each other we need to reach out to each other. We need to make a new culture, one that is safe to live in again, one that cares and protects each other from abusive bullies,traumas,assaults and rape,,scapegoating/bashing and break away that that undeserved shame and conditioned helplessness and by standing induced from living in this inhuman culture of empire and hierarchy,and patriarchy and authoritarians that heaps abuse upon us...to enslave us and put out our lives like so many candles extinguished.

I write this realizing and honoring the blackness..No masters,no cultural hegemony, no privileged classes, no rulers, no more domination.
We need to help each other to save ourselves.

[Raksha]

135. "Asshole-free zones" - what a GREAT concept!

We definitely need more asshole-free zones in this country.

[undergroundpanther]

176. Asshole free zones

The thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=276x900

My post..

Asshole free zones Updated at 3:27 AM

I was talking to my therapist last night...

And He asked me what could have made a difference in my life.
At first I had no answer. Because my life sucks most of the time.It's pointless to grow up struggle get hurt,"succeed" have the intelligence,and all just to die and everything you ever loved dies.

He seems OK with the idea that things die,that shit happens.He seemed to say yes tragedy hurts,but accepted his powerlessness.And the capricious nature of a senseless cruel reality doesn't bother him.
(personally I think that's sick)
He thinks "life is an adventure" and said he once thought what's the point and that he'd never bring a kid into this hellhole.Something in him changed.
(I wondered inside my thoughts what broke him..
Why does he think it's OK the good MUST be tolerant of the bad? That it's all fine that all good things must die?)

I told him I dunno how to accept this existence this life,I'm not sure I want to. I said every time I try to love or share I get crushed belittled for what I have to offer or I am denied ignored or treated like I don't deserve to feel what I feel,or I "offend" or scare somebody who is rigid and it is determined by some arbitrary authority it's ME that has to control myself,and shut up not the control freak manipulating the system,who nobody wants to think is being an ass.I feel manipulated, jaded and cheated,by life here and because of this I don't trust people,I hate this civilization,I hate this sick sad situation and I want out...I am discounted,hurt,belittled denied,or worse of all hurt for caring,trying,being .And if I cry out I am called weak. This sucks.
I never asked for this shit.I never asked to be born.


We went back to the original question what would have helped me?

I replied when I was growing up I needed a HAVEN

A haven from stupid arbitrary capricious demands from rigid controlling malignant people>freedom from all this achievement pressure to "be somebody",make money,please the boss,suck the ass that shits on me, I needed freedom from all these other people desperate to shape me into what they wanted me to be ..a productive citizen,a "good girl" a a *fill in religion*."normal" ,a daughter,..I needed a place where no one said to me when I was not harming them:" Don't say that","Don't look that way" "don't feel that" "Don't dress that way" Don't think that way" "don't like that,you must like this or else",And most of all "Don't you dare be you or you will be destroyed".

I needed a place where trust was mutual,respect was not one way and expected always as in you give it regardless of how you are treated and others are entitled to it without proving they are respectable.

I wanted a community of unique friends inside a kingdom off strangers competing to win. Win what..a place on top where you can tell everyone who to be,what to feel,shut up,and force control.

A kingdom(top down pecking order) it seems,Can't stand to have a community of equality existing within it.That is why colonists kill of indigenous communities they know that once their servants taste freedom and support of equality they won't come back to the kingdom because they can't BEAR it. The kingdom as a social structure is narcissistic.. everything good must flow to the "leader"or the popular,the powerful or rich.The"big men"..and the leasers must be sacrifices for the kingdoms(kings) sake.Which means all people who are not'kings' learn to conform obey deny your own potential or die outcast.If you dare demand equal respect as a person than you are a threat to the "established order"" violating norms""troublemaker". If you tell what hurts you are a"victim" if you stand up against abuse,or corruption they shoot the messenger. This is sick.


For people with authoritarian,controlling, narcissistic or bully persona's living their lives under the control of a "norm" or tradition" or"strong leader" they say it gives their ego a feeling solidity and THEY like it.

To the more creative,loose,inquiring,exploring,courageous,feeling,thinking alive people it HURTS them to live in the way rigid people do in their system,under their"leaders".

The rigid,"traditional"defensive, back wards,narcissistic authoritarian persona is like a cancer consciousness when it seeks to limit,shut up or control the loose,creative,flexible, anti-authoritarian explorer,other-directed less defensive persona's.
Seekers asking why things are this way eventually begin to see the pain and their hearts are tortured by it,they want to help,share..And they don't want to be hurt for it.It sets up an inner conflict.Between doing what's right and caring and self survival.The empathy for the beauty being crushed tears their spirit apart.
But also non authoritarian people have a non threatened attitude twords other's joy .They can rejoice in the joy they don't"own" without feeling diminished in themselves by the brilliance of others,in fact they get inspired it makes their heart fly higher instead of making them feel inferior and competitive like they have to top others and be bigger fish than they are..

When another person's inspiration threatens to take a narcissistic oriented person somewhere beyond the arbitrary "safety zone".They gotta be better ,bigger and steal attention,.They are fueled by resentments,they react and attack the creative person for being what they are and sharing it..But the price for the rigid narcissistic authoritarian ego's precious illusion that all is safe or reasonable,and they are on top of the world to be complete they actually wound,destroy the good,the kindhearted,those who do,they steal,pillage,co-opt,they silence the sensitive,deep thinkers,rebels,explorers and creative.Narcissists and bullies don't want to get past their "kingdom"mind for they LIKE it,it is THEIR kind of"community" where THEY feel at home.
Problem with bullies is they want the whole world as their kingdom.They don't share,they don't give unless they get more,Authoritarians are NOT the majority,They effect communities like cancer that way.They want to take it all they can so they can grow and be bigger and live forever on top in control of everything even if it kills the Earth.


The bullies control "protean" or other directed people.The bullies hold them down with poverty shame ,in mental cages and traumas that takes a lifetime of therapy to undo.Whether bullies do it deliberately or unconsciously ,from fear or out of'convienence' it doesn't matter because it hurts the spirit itself.Dominator's seek out and fuck with people who are not like themselves,because they know explorers and givers can break their delusions of entitlement inside them,and take away the fear and enchantments they use to dupe entire cultures ,expose the lies to others that they build their pedestals to dominate everyone upon..

When abused people speak our minds fearlessly to power we remind them they are not gods,they have no excuses, they are assholes,they are vulnerable and as powerless against the forces that are out of everyones control as anyone else is..We tear their pedestals down and establish equality and human rights.

Sadly this dynamic happens everywhere people relate to each other on this earth.In couples groups and institutions,clubs and governments...

My therapist asked what would an Asshole free zone be like?

I said it would sorta be going back in time,back to being wild.
Back to being equal human beings respecting of all the other life.
It would require the force able creation of an asshole free zone.A boundary on ever person's conduct and character.It would require integrity and participation.You could not by stand,because to have a place that excludes kings from the community you must be intolerant of abuses corruption and power seeking.Differences that are not toxic controlling or abusive that DO NOT MATTER ,Differences that do not abuse trust or set up authority structures that stifle are not threats to a community of equals.

To create this kind of space inside a Kingdom like our culture is you must remain ever vigilant against the tyrant mind that resides in every human heart and reject socialization with narcissistic people,bullies sociopaths,and authoritarian personalities.All breakers of trust must not be allowed to get away with it,privacy must not be abused..You gotta do this exclusion of bad character in a reasonable way ,to protect the freedom of all in the community who seek freedom to be,peace and equality in right relationship in that community.

Maybe we can't see this mind of cancer eating us,as we serve it,it's making us crazy and suicidal because we are not living as we wanted,we have potentials stolen from us and redirected in the name of conformity and pleasing authority..we get tamed, by being born into a "kingdom" of haves and have nots,all our lives graded sorted separated,hierarchical by default,where it's conform or die,obey or else,shut up ,do your work,It's a jungle out there and you are on your own,Don't ask questions,don't offend the kings and bullies,Keep your nose to the grindstone,What can you do they are the powers that be,better to tell a lie than face the music,and do as you are told,don't feel that,Happiness is in slavery! Work sets you free!Don't think that way,don't BE you or you'll get hurt!! So to please the parents,the teacher ,the whole pervasive kingdom system posing as sanity itself we grow up stifled,dreaming,doing what we are told until we get enough money to retire,we live harnessed, controlled and broken fighting against each other to be something we are not beginning at a very early age. And it HURTS.Everyday it HURTS to remember what was taken,co-opted and denied us so we could "make it","fit in" and avoid being ridiculed,scapegoated,abused,out-casted from the illusory security of this kingdom ..When all the communities of equals are gone,the empire is all that is left,and for some of us it HURTS to be alive in a kingdom..

Everyday,we resist until we are crushed enough to be able to accept this condition.We stop hoping.Caring,giving,we close up.It takes 13 years of school to break a child's spirit,so he will work the rest of his days..The broken and resigned are the sane"functioning" ones.
And when some people break out of this prison this forced way of living imposes upon our minds and potentials ,some are so afraid of freedom and the consequences of daring to take it,the integrity required,the bearing of the soul with courage, they freak out looking at what looks like an alien landscape.They project,misunderstand their kingdom created defenses try to confuse them and blind them and distort what they see or hear..

They feel threatened and unstable seeing the evil nature of a kingdom from within it.Their mind can't stand it.They are complicit. Guilty and ashamed and they feel trapped to realize there is nowhere else to go and live.And they suffer,go nuts,make up delusions,get suicidal.Once you see the truth of what a kingdom does to a human spirit,you cannot unsee it again..The contrast of it all compared to their perceptions in their safe imposed fence, is unbearable..some self destruct.I think this happens because there is not any nurturing community of equals there to catch the explorer with a safety net as he falls. Our sense of TRUST on a human to human foundation has been violated by those bullies who seek to rule us,blind us,limit us, and use us for their own purposes..

There is no place for me to be me on this on Earth I think.For when a community of sharers and explorer's is set up,It's like a beacon to dominator's,exploiters narcissists.Soon some person makes waves and hurts someone ,a bully makes everyone scared to say what he is,an authoritarian seeks popularity or sets up an organizational structure so he can tell everyone to do it his way or else.

I Told my therapist if I was to say what would help me as a teen,I said I needed to go live in an asshole free zone.I said I needed a haven of equals,taking care of each other..Intent on making itself safe from bullies and control freaks of every kind who would tell them not to be.I still need a community to participate in with open minded fellow explorers who weren't so scared of exploring,or where other people go,who wouldn't hate me for being me,wouldn't try to top me,or shun me for what I found looking into the unknown,and would not stop me from sharing what treasures I found in my exploring with everyone who wanted some,and enjoying/exploring what treasures others has to share from their explorations..and being inspired by them..so we all can see more beauty,create more coolness,and go deeper into unknowns..and find out what we are...really.

I think we who see and suffer need to make a community in the kingdom and guard it vigilantly to keep it free.. A haven where we can LIVE,SHARE,and be FREE to BE without other people getting in who bring with them corruption, who force being "productive" or want to make us be subjected to arbitrary rules,"obedience" forced " choices" between sacrificing keeping your own inner locus of control intact,saving your integrity,obeying your conscience,having your own voice,pursuing YOUR happiness
or selling it all out for money,food on the table,protecting our kids,stress relief ,a job,or survival itself.
A place where everyone agrees it is to be free of conformity,authoritarianism,coercion,stifling,scapegoating,
intimidation,inequality,dehumanization,abuse or domination..and it equally applies to all ands all participate to protect it and maintain it as a place of peace beauty and love because they love their haven and rejected the values and entitlement mentality of "the kingdom".

[Raksha]

233. Link to my reply on the Mental Health Support forum

where this was originally posted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=276x900#6161
I described the week I recently spent in an asshole-free zone...an amazingly therapeutic experience.

[Triana]

27. K & R - wish I could 1000 times...(n/t)

[hfojvt]

28. to create more hate in the world

return hate for hate. Hate all men for what some men do.

Her words:

"A society in which half of the population hates us for no reason I can discern."

Half of the population. Isn't that all men, (and boys) or is it just 99.44% (maybe boys under 6 months of age are excluded)?

This was especially ironic

"From the woman who spends her entire day scrubbing toilets for minimum wage, to the women who have been harassed in the park or on the street all the way to the women who vowed to love a man only to find herself the recipient of his fists, down to the woman who went on that date with the 'nice guy' and ended her night being raped."

One day as I was working at my job scrubbing toilets for $5.5 an hour I noticed a woman rolling a chair down the street. A chair the furniture store had thrown away. Naturally I had to demonstrate my male pride by carrying it to her apartment. Such male violence, eh.

"...the force that is male pride and entitlement ..." "Those of you who have felt male violence..."

Violence is not uniquely male, nor are women the only victims.

All of which goes to why we don't need this kind of 'radical' (should be called hateful instead of radical) feminism. Because it alienates not only men who would be political and social allies, but also the majority of women who love their sons, fathers, husbands, brothers, and uncles.

[RandomKoolzip]

38. Man, I don't think this kind of response was appropriate.

As another man in favor of radical feminism, I'm not offended by the generalizations - I can see beyond them to take a look at the greater message.

[Scout]

78. we need more like you! n/t

[Lee_n_Tenn]

91. So its okay to generalize MEN. But don't do it to women, gays, blacks, muslims, jews, ..

and on and on? If you say its okay then you also think its okay to do it to others. Or you are a hypocrite.

[ThomCat]

93. Spoken like someone who doesn't give a damn

until you feel like you're being maligned. Get over it.

[undercutter2006]

106. get over it?

why don't you get over it, lol

[ThomCat]

110. Do you have a point,

or are you just trolling?

[RandomKoolzip]

107. Wrongo to the liver.

Look to who holds institutional power: is it women? Gays? Muslims? Not in America. There is a power relationship you are ingnoring: the power to inflict a social reality on a minority group. Moneyed white men hold the power, always have - and thus any insults or generalizations flung their way do not have the power to injure, because using Huey Newton's definition of power, white men have the ability to "define phenomena and have them act accordingly," using what is now called "privilege."

"Privilege" can be a slippery concept to those who have it but deny it. An individual white man is rarely used in the media as an example of his entire "race" or gender, or in the workplace, etc. Women routinely are, as are blacks, homosexuals, Asians, et al.

If you can walk down the street and NOT fear rape, then you are a bearer of privilege.

I say this all as a white man (although I ain't rich, but that's another story): A few Women's studies classes, some reading (bell hooks, Valerie Solanis), and a a good sober wide-eyed look around might do ya some good, sir.

[Lee_n_Tenn]

131. Are you kidding me? I agree with womens rights and all that. I am saying WHY is it okay to justify

hate and discrimination of all MEN? How in the hell can you be a normal, intelligent person and say that kind of garbage is ok to do if you hate and discriminate the right people? You people sicken me. Hate and discrimination is bad no matter what or who it involves. People scare me on this board. I have been here since right before the 2004 elections and it has gotten worse every fricken month.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

149. Right. Anything you can't be bothered to support

must be hatred. But sitting back and doing nothing while sexism runs rampant isn't based on hate. :eyes:

It must be nice to sit there, safe and sound, saying you'd support the movement if it was clean and pretty. But when you're fighting to make people's lives safe and equitable you're fighting dirty shit. It's not clean or pretty, and you don't succeed by kissing the asses of people who don't do anything to help.

[Scout]

152. You people sicken me

feel free to leave, and don't let the door hit you on the ass....

:eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

39. I hate patriarchy

If you want to nit pick go elsewhere.We are talking about the DEFENSE of women who have been raped assaulted beaten by men.
Many times men who are around men fail to call the sexist men the pigs they are. Being a transgender I have seen it with my own eyes,and I spoke up..when the"men with penises failed to.Men by standing as women get humiliated by other men is not innocence.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.

There are many men who say nothing, do nothing and stand by as women get devalued as in a sexist joke or comment.There are men who did nothing when a woman is demeaned,humiliated scapegoated or even beaten up assaulted or raped by other men. There are millions of men who like porn but fail to connect that it is an industry built on exploitation of women. All those 'good men' still have priveleged status, they are not blameless.

Sad some women have become so patriarchal.So passive and meek,calling radical feminism hate,because it is not meek and supportive of dick priveleges like they are.

Woman, grow some ovaries and a heart please.
Have more sympathy for the wounded ones than for by stander do nothing 'good men' who say nothing when a sexist joke is told around other men,and do nothing when they hear a woman next door being torn apart by her drunk abuser...There are plenty of good men who fail to risk caring.Yet you call those who defend the victims of patriarchy hateful?

The bystanders and sympathizers who tolerate the abuses done by this toxic culture of patriarchy don't care about you and your squeaking of lets all just get along and play nice. Playing nice never helped an assault victim you know.

You just can't get along with a culture of abuse and denial created by and for patriarchy, unless you have decided on some level to tolerate the intolerable and shut down dissent,within.

You must realize,sometimes you have to use your claws and speak truth to power and that truth may not always be what you would like to hear.Sometimes reality is brutal and it must be handled in brutal ways to stop the abuses...We don't need your permission or approval or for all the men to feel un threatened by us to act on behalf of women in pain.. ,dear. You might.. but I don't.I'm not a nice little woman. I have claws and know how to use them,and I am not afraid to use them either. Understand?

[wicket]

43. Wonderful response!

This deserves a post of it's own! :yourock:

[Katherine Brengle]

57. Amen. nt

[bettyellen]

41. "men who would be political and social allies" but make cheap excuses why they are not is why we

need radical feminists.
Because guys like you refuse to support women and then blame women. What bullshit.

[ThomCat]

48. Well said. A whole lot of guys say they support women's right

but always have a quick argument, blaming women for why they don't really support women's right.

If your first response is to nit-pick, argue, blame or criticize then you're not supporting feminism. You're being argumentative to belittle feminism.

A lot of men are willing to "support" feminism as long as feminists shut up and stop insisting that male privilage and dominance is a problem.

Just like a lot of straight people "support" gay rights as long as LGBT people shut up and wait for permission and approval to express ourselves.

And just like a lot of white people "support" civil rights as long as black people don't insist that racism is common and pervasive, and still needs to be fought everywhere.

[hfojvt]

115. I admit that though, straight up

I don't support militant feminism.

I don't support conservative feminism either. That's probably not the right adjective. But I mean is that we have a competitive, ruthless, greedy, war-mongering society which also discriminates on the basis of sex. It seems to me that some feminists just want to have their spot in this society, rather than transforming that society.

What I consider radical feminism is more like Charlotte Perkins Gilman, to transform our society into something more like a 'Herland'. But really, that's probably no more likely to get popular support than militant feminism is.

[ThomCat]

125. I don't think you know what radical feminism is.

Radical feminists are who built the anti-rape movement.

Radical feminists are the bedrock of the pro-choice movement.

Radical feminists are any feminists who go beyond the useless "girl-power" campaigns and actually try to change power structures.

Radical feminists are any feminists who publically stand up to sexism, and insist that women should earn the same as men. Any feminist who proclaims she's a feminist in the face of male oposition will be declared a radical, and it's true.

Radical feminists are any feminists who insist that it isn't enough to let women climb higher in a structure that is still defined by men for the benefit of men. For example, it's not enough to promote some women into management if they're still punished for getting pregnant, or having kids at home.

Radical feminists are any feminists who go beyond talk and actually do something.

[bettyellen]

220. so we're all going to hold our breathe trying to please you in order to gain support...

NOT. YOU DUMBASS.
you can't be on the right side unless we p;ease yopu enough? fuck the fuck off. seriously.

[Scout]

79. yeah, they can't just support feminism because it's THE RIGHT THING TO DO...

"well, one feminist woman pissed me off, so I'm not going to support any of those bitches."

all too typical, sadly.

[hfojvt]

116. Isn't that like the OP though?

One man raped me (or told a sexist joke once) so I hate all men because all men hate me.

[ThomCat]

153. No. That's not at all what the OP says.

Men, as a general group are responsible for sexism and violence against women.
Men, as a general group make it possible for other men to get away with it.
Men, as a general group benefit from sexism and often enjoy perpetuating it.

While some men are exceptions, that doesn't absolve men as a group.

And for the sake of basic safety, women have to view all men as potential abusers until they know for sure that an individual is not. For the sake of basic saftey, women have to assume that all men are potential rapists until they know for sure that an individual is not.

If you consider that Hatred then you're deluded.

[hfojvt]

196. I consider that paranoia more than hatred

I expect most people to feel safe in most situations. If they cannot, then that sucks.

I don't believe in these 'group actions'. 'Men, as a general group'. What does that mean? 50% of men? or that men are responsible for 90% of the violence against women?

Give me a percentage, ballpark. What percent of men are rapists? There are about 140 million males in this country and maybe 5 million sexual assaults. That seems like 5% at the most, which might rise to 20% over a ten year period.

I think most men are exceptions when it comes to sexual assault. Sexism is another complicated story, as is the 'men, as a general group benefit from sexism.'

[undergroundpanther]

Some people

are so used to having privilege,and never feeling dominated,They can assume they are right and perfect as they are, and do nothing. These privileged men are so insensitive,they think self defense by a victim is to diminish them as human beings... And So dependant on patriarchy the privileged are so weak in character so devoid of empathy honesty and guts because they never HAD to care about some woman's life.

Maybe this blindness is because these defensive men know their patriarchy is evil,and feel ashamed.Because they have invested themselves too much in life through a fake power system it bothers them when someone calls them a naked emperor..Sold their soul to blind themselves to their own human animality, the softness,vulnerability in their own femininity within. Seems the feminine inside is just too scary to accept for some men,and so lacking any internal source of power deep down,They lord it over women,try to rob it from those to have it,with violence and bullying ,playing victim when there has been no victimization,

Another lie he tells himself by calling self defense from predation from of believer in a system built to declare him entitled to take from women a kind of 'male' abuse.
What a pathetic ploy to distract the subject onto yourself.Is your precious ego feeling neglected ?
Well get used to it. You are a human animal like everyone else..

I have no pity for the minor pain of the slightly shame dinged individuals who still support the cultural hegemony that thinks and trains men to assume they are entitled to tell me how I should feel speak or be.

Men are made victims of patriarchy ONLY when they dare become feminists and reject the tainted power over position offered every male in this culture...when men accept the patriarchy they are nothing but pathetic ,and when they defend it they are my pathetic enemies.

[ThomCat]

229. I'll only disagree with you on one point.

I'm am not a victim of patriarch because I dare to become a feminist. Patriarchy still benefits me. I still have male privilage. Being willing to give up male privilage is not the same as losing it.

Any hostility I get from patriarchy is only because I'm gay.

Standing up as a feminist has cost me almost nothing. If we succeed, then it will be different. If we succeed then we will have broken the power of patriarchy and, of course, I won't benefit from it any more. But we're a long way from that point. In the meantime, Patriarchy still gives me all the benefits of being a man.

[undergroundpanther]

237. I don't think I was clear enough

At what I was getting at.

>I'm not a victim of patriarch because I dare to become a feminist. >Patriarchy still benefits me. I still have male privilege. Being >willing to give up male privilege is not the same as losing it.

In some cases you are right I agree..but I don't think I was clear enough on the depth of what I was saying. Here is a story.That illustrates the issue.

The poet Lucian depicts Zeus asking advice about how to become attractive to women,

He is told by the baby god Erôs that he ought to become more like Dionysus:
Eros; "If you want to be loved, stop brandishing the aegis and carrying the thunderbolt using it on who are all (plausibly enough) afraid of you.. and make yourself really pleasing and soft to look at; let your curls grow and tie them in a ribbon, wear a purple gown, strap on gold sandals, walk to the beat of a flute and tambourines, and you'll see, more of them will tail you than Dionysus' maenads.

Zeus: Get out of here! I don't want to be loved (e by becoming that sort.

Eros: Okay, Zeus,then stop falling in love.It's easier that way.


How does patriarchy deal with Trans-women?.Sometimes they still look like men when they are not passing yet...Whole different story there .Not only is this male giving up male privilege, he is going even futher by becoming a woman. That transgression makes her a gender outlaw,traitor to manhood in some bully males perception.,so men give her tons of hate,sometimes sadly even gay men.

That kind of defiance may lead to victimization by patriarchy in the extreme,Every month a transsexual is murdered in this country often it is more than one person dead,so strong is the fear and hate of those who dare to reject binary gender rules.
Some people are convinced success as nation depends on everybody upholding the same “virtuous” and “respectable”
norms.(just look rightward it's all there) Vital to these binary control freak norms that keep the patriarchy alive,is a very sharp distinction between male and
female in which the male is active, aggressive and the female was passive forced to take what he gave.
With this binary split enforced is how the idea of manliness grew up.
In patriarchal mindset men can't be permitted to be soft,gentle,
sensuous or indulgent. No, he was duty-driven self-controlled machine.. Hard and cold.Like a mindless alpha seeking to dominate all the dogs..

Anyone who seemed too caring,soft or sensuous was called a deviant., This notion of Normal VS deviant helped rationalize persecution of Gays.This irrational fear of the deviant is something deeper,this
wounded sense of helplessness and subjection It goes beyond peer pressure and social conformity.Beneath patriarchy there is direct ,indirect shame, about a unspoken human longing - to escape from a reality that is too dirty, too mortal, too rotten and gross.For the powerful enough to subordinate others by bullying or conquest. A fantasy escape from gritty decayed reality that is unbearable may be
reinforced through stigma and aggression to the people that have the deviance the dominating class finds unspeakably shameful,revolting and disgusting about itself.

> Any hostility I get from patriarchy is only because I'm gay.

And being gay makes patriarchy see you as soft and woman like. it triggers the same disgust,shame fears of softness vulnerability and such that women do. And they hate you because you like women,remind them of ,softness,weakness and all the things these patriarchal dominating pricks want to tell themselves they are not anything like.All this shame and revulsion be enacted on who conveniently represents the ungovernable ,the pain and disgust of existence the slimy things, the slugs and dead things, the fear of being conquered helpless and messy covered in both shame and revulsion ? The body of the woman, the convenient cultural
trash can for this displacement,Ironically She becomes all the more appealing as a target of this rage against this sticky smelly uncontrollable bladder of inconvenient life,Anyone with the symbols or traits of the scapegoated,discredited feared object of disgust is vulnerable.And a gay man with his feminine ways becomes a target as too.


>Standing up as a feminist has cost me almost nothing. If we succeed, >then it will be different. If we succeed then we will have broken the >power of patriarchy and, of course, I won't benefit from it any more.

True. To an extent .But with patriarchy broken there will still be resentful conquered males who miss the bad old days when they could hide from the truth that we all die.We will have to be forever vigilant, but hey that's the cost of freedom isn't it?.

>But we're a long way from that point. In the meantime, Patriarchy still >gives me all the benefits of being a man.

As long as you don't act too gay and show your softer side so much they detect you are not like them. The closet has its uses in a patriarchal world too I know... women are as a symbol of weakness and
vulnerability that is inside any male, because he exists in a body.It is the "strong man" who believes he can be drawn into his own mortality through desire. So a fantasy that her annihilation will lead to safety and invulnerability takes hold. The paranoid anxiety that keeps telling every man that he is not safe and invulnerable enough ,that he is a human in a dangerous smelly,indifferent, chaotic, uncontrollable world feeds the desire to extinguish anything of her.Even if it is male it acts like her..He's a target too. Why this terrible and murderous vulnerability? This shame, is a self-referential thing what is so awful in the other is what is hated in the self. That is why so many republicans are arrested as perverts.

It goes back to the earliest experiences a human infant has.Being a baby, is a jolting alternation between blissful completeness, in which the whole world seems to revolve around its needs, an agonizing awareness of the baby's own powerlessness and helplessness, when needs do not come at the desired moment and the infant can do nothing to ensure it will come and it fears abandonment and fears for it's own life.. It is a terrible helplessness to be a baby in this world.
That terrible helplessness is contrasted with being attended to constantly an "infantile omnipotence" as in
Freud's "His Majesty the baby"
And parents that are weary can resent the baby for it's neediness too.
That memory of omnipotence is connected to anxiety, and the shame, of knowing that one is not omnipotent, but utterly powerless.
Like a baby with hunger and mother is not there!Baby cannot get up,get milk he must cry and cry until someone cares!From this anxiety and shame of being helpless emerges a desire for completeness fullness that never will be. Regardless if the kid knows that it is only one part in a world filled with limited needy beings too.

Primitive Shame is connected to one’s awareness of one’s bodily limits those parts of oneself - bodily need, sexual longing - that are the markers of a finite needy body. If they are shameful when seen as in oneself, they can be better managed in the mind if projected outward, so that they appear on some other kind of people,not oneself.
Connected to Primitive Shame is disgust:The loathing of disgust gross out over the shit,puke, body odor) and decay (corpses, rotting food,roadkill).Disgust be extended to include other things that seem to invoke primary disgust with traits like bad smells, sliminess, stickiness.(slugs,worms ,maggots,pigs)Disgust is an emotion wrapped up in symbols and magical thinking.They are reminders of our animality and mortality, in a process of social association symbols for dead things,puke shit,slugs rot are created. Disgust shields a human psyche from too much contact with aspects of their own humanity that are difficult to live with, the very things of which people are deeply ashamed. Like shitting ones pants in public.So if keeping a distance to corpses or oozy decaying smelly things, we may be able to ignore our own mortality for awhile. If we neatly dispose of our shit, we more easily forget that we carry shit inside us.

It is not enough for for some people to avoid the gross and move on. They might create a group of enemies to carry their revulsion at their own dirty smelly selves ,to symbolize the disgusting
This way the Patriarchy or dominant class can distance itself away from owning it's own animalness and weakness. Seems every hierarchical society labels someone with disgust properties-bad smell, stickiness, slimyness, and subordinates them as disgusting.Gays get called disgusting alot as to trans-people. .

The scapegoats of the dominants ,the women the weak the gay, disabled, different,strange,suffer in this way just to further insulate the dominant group from what they fear facing inside themselves. Like say, their shit stinks too.We enable them when we play by their rules of conduct and obey their dictates that we be ashamed of ourselves and cover up,smell pretty,shave,and don't act too effeminate so they don't have to be.And if you get the label of gross from the patriarchy,and shameful),(you are gay Eeeew) Means you are open season for scapegoating from the patriarchy with the rest of us. You might be insulated a bit more than women or trans-women,but you are in line for it.

[ThomCat]

239. Agreed.

I'm a target and always will be.

As a male feminist I'm far less of a target than any woman. But as a gay man I'm wearing a neon target on my chest.

And you're right that this will be a never ending fight. :(

[bettyellen]

222. every lazy man spout this BS and you know what? it's BS- they're scared of saying shits

to other men when they are jackasses- then they are embarrassed and blame women
fuck all of them pretenders.

[hfojvt]

114. guys like me, eh?

Did you notice my icon? I support Nancy. I distance myself from Cindy.

Did you notice who kicked this (linked) thread back into life?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1362189

It's not about me. It's about my sister, my mom, and so many other 'mainstream' people who will read the essay in the OP and think 'this person's got issues'.

[ThomCat]

189. No, it's all about guys who will claim to support a cause

and use any excuse to undermine it. You can claim to support women's rights, but what have you done? You can claim that you support feminism, but where?

Supporting a female politician is nice. Caring for your sister and mom is nice. Do you really think that's enough?

[bettyellen]

221. he claims undermining means caring, he's so full of shit because he's waiting for feminists to be

nice enough for him to give support.... wtf? does he realize we are not his mommy?

[undergroundpanther]

224. Hmm

He has to grow up sometime..Might as well do it now.

Women are not mommies for men..even when they have breasts they are not for your enjoyment just because you never grew up,dude.

Men who think they are still infants and still want mommies to take care of them..are pathetic aren't they?.

[hfojvt]

258. See I'm not the hater here

Did anybody follow the link I posted?

And I am more of an a$$ man. In more ways than one.

One thing about mommies. They tend to be kinda bossy, always wanting you to cut the grass, clean your room, take out the trash. All of which I do, as a single guy, but on my own schedule.

[Katherine Brengle]

56. I walk in fear every day. Try living with that.

Women live every day in fear that they will be raped. It is a constant in our lives.

You're trying to put the hate shoe on the wrong foot here.

[hfojvt]

118. Alot of men live in fear too

Any time I walk home I could be mugged or just beaten to a pulp by a bunch of thugs who are bored. I've known alot of fearless women in my life, so I do not think this 'fear of rape' is that universal.

[Scout]

154. and YOU won't be blamed because you wore the wrong clothes, you dared to have money

in your wallet, you walked down the wrong street, you were out at night....


get a freakin' clue dude

[hfojvt]

169. What does that have to do with the price of salt?

I am sure it will be great comfort to me when I am lying in my hospital bed, afraid I might lose my eye. 'Well, at least I won't be blamed for this.' We were talking about the fear of assault, not about BS after-stories. Dude in this town got killed on his way to work. Why? Because a couple other guys were bored and wanted to kill somebody just for excitement. Sure, the vast majority of the perpetrators are male, but having a Y chromosome does not prevent you from being a victim.

[ThomCat]

171. Wow. Most clueless post on this entire thread.

[hfojvt]

197. most clueless?

Does that mean I win a DUzy? :woohoo:

What about a cluezy? I guess that would be the DU version of the razzy :blush:

Of course, I am clueless as to why it is clueless.

[ieoeja]

173. Actually, those are EXACTLY the sort of statements made about mugging victims all the time. n/t

[Scout]

174. Bullshit. n/t

[ThomCat]

177. You're kidding, right?

I've been mugged several times and nobody has ever suggested any such thing.

I know 5 people who have been mugged, and none of them has ever mentioned any such thing.

[Scout]

77. waaaaah waaaaaah waaaaaah who's the victim now?

your post is just full of so much shit...

why don't you go start your own thread about how the evil feminists hate you?

[Dora]

88. Instead of feeling defensive, perhaps you could feel proud.

If you're not among the oppressors, then perhaps you can take pride in yourself for knowing where you stand.

Criticizing those who fight for victims and the oppressed is wasted breath.

Men who "would be" allies either ARE or they ARE NOT.

Only you know where you stand.

Fie on you.

[hfojvt]

121. I should be allies with people who say 'fie on me'?

That's the thing though. I am part of this club - the Democratic party. Even part of the Green (or Democratic or Progrssive) wing of the Democratic party - go PDA!!! I would like to see the club grow in influence, but some members of the club want to attack Christians, others want to attack men, and others want to attack Reid and Pelosi for being sell-outs.

So I stand at the meeting and declare 'hain't I a progressive?'

Apparently not, the first thing our group needs to do is purge itself of 'a$$holes like me'.

Another funny thing is 'when a woman cleans toilets for minimum wage, she is thereby one of the oppressed.' If, OTOH, a white man does it, I guess it's karma. Instant karma, or proactive karma.

[ThomCat]

129. I think you have it backwards

You're saying Fie on them.

Just because you don't understand the legitimate fear of male violence, and the legitimate fear that men can get away with it, and the legitimate fear that women will be blamed for it and made to suffer more because of it, and the legitimate fear that men will continually look the other way while women are discriminated against... none of that makes you any less welcome to actually help feminists.

But if you're looking for someone to pat you on the back and constantly tell you that you're a wonderful, wonderful man before you'll volunteer, then you're a bit high maintenance for the movement.

Help because you want to. Help because it's the right thing to do. Help even though everyone doesn't love you and agree with you.

Otherwise, you're not helping.

[hfojvt]

163. there's a funny thing about male violence

I have posted it before. More men are assaulted and murdered in this country than women. So a person does not have to be a woman to know about 'fear of violence'.

The OP started the 'fieing' with the 'all men hate women' and male this and male that. I happen to think that's BS, and said so.

There's a huge difference between me being patted on the back and silently listening to another 'men suck' diatribe.

It's not about me. For example, I was trying to get my co-workers to listen to a country music radio station. When the radio station played a couple of songs that sucked, my position became indefensible. So I emailed the station and said 'pick up the pace. Don't play so many slow, whiny ballads.' When the song sucks, it not only hard to convince others to listen, it's hard to remember why I wanted to listen. I think the feminist station WFEM has some better songs they could play.

[ThomCat]

170. Rape is not simply assault.

You clearly don't have a clue what violence against women is, or how epidemic it is. Your made-up statistic about assaults obviously doesn't include rape, sexual assault, or domestic violence or you could never say something so rediculous.

Violence against women is not just getting mugged.
Worrying about getting assaulted or mugged is not the same as worrying that you'll be raped and then blamed for it.

Little boys aren't trained from a young age to protect themselves by not wearing certain clothes, which simultainiously being told that they have to wear those same clothes. And if those little boys get beaten up, they won't be called sluts and be told that they caused it and deserved it.

Guys don't have to worry every time they agree to go someplace private with a woman that she's going to do horrible things to him, or worry that everyone will then blame him for it and defend her.

You can make up all the excuses you want, but if you don't actually do something to oppose violence against women then it's because you choose not to. You can't be bothered. You can blame it on feminists for not being pretty and kind enough, but they're fighting in the trenches and you're not. It's still your choice to stand there and do nothing, and then blame others for your own inaction.

[hfojvt]

209. made up statistics?

You could look them up, or I could give you a link to SAUS with a little work. Here's murder victims in 1999 by sex. 13,011 total murder victims. 9,811 of them men and 3,185 of them women. That is true as far back as the statistics go. 1980 homicide rate for men is 10.9/100,000 and for women 3.2.

For crimes of violence (table 303) the rate is 37.0/1000 for men and 28.8/1000 for women. The rate for rape is 3.0 for women and .4 for men. That's 300 per 100,000, and table 298 shows 89,107 rapes in 1998 for a rate of 76.5/100,000 women over age 12. Violence from intimate partners is shockingly high for women at 766.8/100,000 compared to 146.2/100,000 for men. That includes ex-boyfriends too.

[ThomCat]

214. You realize, of course,

that your numbers are only reported crimes. Rapes are among the most under-reported crimes, and estimates are that 1:3 women will be raped or sexually assaulted in her lifetime. That, by itself, dwarfs your numbers.

[ismnotwasm]

195. And?

Who commits the majority of violence? Am I to conclude from your post, that men are violent creatures? Statistically nearly all child molesters are men. Your radio analogy is apt here. Should I conclude all men are child molesters? No.

And that's not what being done in this thread, nor what the OP started with. Your argument is not sound, and is not making sense.

Why the wheel needs to be reinvented every time the topic of feminism or violence against women is brought up--that's what's scary. That's what's frightening. The knee jerk defense of behavior by men who, rather than screaming that's not me, understand, try to understand, what it's like. Just try.

When I was a young girl, I was friends with many male street prostitutes. I remember one young man running out of his apartment screaming. His trick wanted to sodomize him with a knife. He barely escaped. That is graphic, but THAT is the kind of fear women life with. Not the specific act. But that kind of fear.

I know most you don't think you're defending violence or even patriarchy, you think you're defending yourself and other non-violence men. You don't want to be put in a category that perhaps you find horrible. But please, think, think. I look at these threads and see men who probably are decent, but so misguided when it comes to the actual status of women.

[hfojvt]

201. the actual status of women

I think I understand that, although it is not the way you see it.

The wheel only needs to be reinvented if it was not done right.

The OP did start with an attack on all men, that '50% of the world hates women'. I thought I clearly pointed that out. The OP also made it sound like a woman was oppressed if she cleaned toilets for minimum wage. Well it so happens that I did that for two years. In fact, I am still doing half of it now, part time. I am still cleaning toilets, but no longer getting minimum wage.

[ismnotwasm]

210. I hope so

Like I was saying, I see posts like yours, and I also "think" I understand. What I personally would like to see some folks do, not you necessarily,-- although it would be nice-- is a (even a cursory) study of women's history, of women's rights, of women's roles. History is written by those who dominate, and it's been fairly recently that the history of women has even been of interest. The "hot topic" issues like sexual exploitation, pornography (which are the same thing in my mind) don't need to come into it right away. Start out slow. Try, to understand.
Women try to understand men. It's one of our culturally defined roles.

When we use the word misogyny, when "I" use the word, anyway, I'm referring to a deep rooted contempt and fear that perhaps has origins in biology, but more likely it's cultural, and it manifests in patriarchy in this day and age. What's worse, is that it's cross cultural. It's not hard to find.

[hfojvt]

213. I think I have done some of that

I am one of the few people who has read 'Backlash' ('Sleepless in Seattle' joked that 'nobody has read that book'). The People's history (although I don't think that was so much about women) Vindication of the Rights of Women (Wollstonecraft - I only skimmed it, I may still have a copy). Herland, Yellow Wallpaper and other stories, Vida Scudder's 'On Journey'. I still have a copy of 'Men, Women and Rape' but Derrick Jensen told me it's flawed.

I don't think 1750 is all that relevant to 1970 or today though, and I also think there's alot of hyperbole about how bad they had it in situations that we really don't understand that well. I study family history though, and I feel for these women sometimes, when I see a 44 year old woman dying in childbirth and it was her 14th child. But that did not happen all the time.

[noamnety]

203. If you are so incredibly concerned about MEN who are victims

then take a look at who is victimizing men.

It ain't the women. MEN commit the vast majority of violent crimes against women. And MEN commit the vast majority of violent crimes against other men.

If you want to do something to make the men safer, if that's your goal, then you're going have to get beyond "oh no, it's another men suck diatribe" and acknowledge that men in this culture are violent (*reactionary types please take note of sig) figure out what you can do to make men less violent, and what you can do to get them to stop associating violence with power.

This whole radical feminism thing isn't making men any damn bit less safe. It makes everyone more safe. So I am not seeing what your problem is. Unless you're trying to argue that women should stop being outraged that men are committing violent crimes against them, because they're also attacking other men. We aren't looking for "Fair and Balanced." We're looking for the right to walk without fear.

[hfojvt]

212. the issue is more about the sig line

but also I am not sure if hatred makes everyone more safe.

Maybe it's just hyperbole. After hearing yet another horrific story from another victim, it seems in that moment of justifiable rage as though all men are guilty, at least to some degree, even if only of sitting silently while some of their crude 'brothers' ran their mouths. But it still sounded like hatred of all men to me. I think I battle violence, insofar as I can on a message board, by battling hatred.

Your sigline though seems to be the heart of the double standard. I certainly cannot say 'women in this culture are superficial and greedy' and expect to get away with it with a similar disclaimer. 'Well I wasn't talking about all women, look at the context.'

Then, of course, we have to listen to the nonsense about how white men, even the ones working as part-time janitors, rule the world. Therefore, it's okay to slander them, because nothing can knock them off the gravy train.

[noamnety]

218. I only see men describing this as "hatred of all men"

and in fact several men seem very well accepted in this thread. So I think the hyperbole charge might be coming from the source in this case.

If you spend some time reading some studies on gender, you'll get to learn the difference between talking about gender vs. individuals.

It's a reasonable statement to say that in our culture, men are raised to be violent, women are raised to be passive, for instance. Studies will back that up. That doesn't mean it's a part of your personality, and we understand that. Not ALL women are passive. Not ALL men are violent. But Maleness, in our culture, comes with a set of attributes that is separate from your personality - it's more like job training, to teach you how to speak about women, to teach you how to look at women, to teach you all how to bond with each other while degrading women, to teach you that the norm for certain professions is male, and that if a woman is applying for that job, she's not a job applicant, she's a "female" job applicant, to teach you how to cover for each other and defend each other, rather than defending women, and so on. Female comes with a set of learned attributes as well, and many of those I don't especially like, but those attributes do not plunge men into poverty as a class by denying them equal wages and job opportunities, and those learned cultural attributes do not result in violent sexual assaults against men.

If you want to talk about janitors, that's cool. I like that analogy. If a bunch of janitors are having a labor meeting because management has cut their hours, and eliminated their health insurance, I understand them saying the CEOs are greedy thieves. I would not have a lot of sympathy for a CEO who wanders into the room and starts acting like a victim of the janitors "hate." Even if he's a nice guy.

The janitors have a valid complaint about how the CEOs have treated them. They have a right to be angry. It's unreasonable to expect that a janitor struggling for X amount of benefits should feel guilty over having said a mean word against the people who are oppressing them. It's unreasonable for the janitors to have to get through their meeting saying "The CEOs - and I want to make it clear I don't mean all of them, just some of them - are being greedy, and our brothers are dying as a result."

One of those CEOs might actually have a disease his insurance won't cover. He's not going to see himself as privileged. From the janitors' point of view they may on a personal level have sympathy for his disease. But they aren't going to be overly sympathetic if he starts acting like a victim while he's living in his mansion and has insurance to cover the rest of his family.

I think the janitors would be pretty pissed off if the CEO tried to interject himself into one of their conversations from the perspective of trying to prove he has it just as rough as they do.


I would suggest figuring out whether you are more concerned about violence against women, violence against men, or my sig line. That will tell you a lot about yourself.

[hfojvt]

253. It isn't real, it's only a discussion

In your analogy, you make men into CEOs and women into janitors. Trouble is, with that analogy, the CEOs and the janitors are battling over benefits. My point, in this context, would be that not all women are janitors and not all men are CEOs. If the analogy was different and all the janitors were women and all the CEOs men, it would still be wrong for one of the janitors to say 'these men are greedy pigs' especially if they want to get help in their cause from the rest of the men in the plant. If the janitors claim they have the nastiest and lowest paying job in the plant, a man from the paintline may very well speak up. If other plant workers have the same problems, maybe they could make common cause

As to what I care more about. Isn't that a moot point? It's a discussion. The point of the discussion is an exchange of ideas, an exchange of viewpoints. Whether I type 'you fu$%ing rock' or a bunch of nitpicking criticism like I did, neither action is going to do one iota towards ending violence against either men, women or children or even animals.

The goal here, is for each participant to say 'thanks for an interesting and lively debate, even if we do not agree'. To write something that will teach and to learn from your critics. Perhaps if we see that everybody who argues with us, or does not wholeheartedly support our pet cause, or is ignorant or doubtful of obvious (to us) facts is not necessarily an enema (meaning enemy) that needs to be flushed out. Maybe that will make a small contribution towards a kinder, gentler nation. In that regard, I just wanna be one of a thousand points of light.

[noamnety]

256. What do you think our common cause is?

I see that a common cause is to crush white male supremacy. Not white males, but white male SUPREMACY. It's a cancer on the world.

What are you going to do in that effort?

[Dora]

137. See, now you're grouping all women with me. Where's your mirror?

You posted here to respond that you're different from those men, complaining that it's just not fair to criticize MEN when you are a man and you're not doing these terrible things to women.

Well, here I am a woman, and I (as an individual) say "fie on you" and you are now saying that ALL women are saying "fie."

Get a grip, or STFU.

[hfojvt]

151. I should get a grip

before I start posting personal attacks and telling people to STFU.

[Scout]

158. if you think someone is breaking the rules you should alert on their posts. n/t

[Dora]

160. See, it's like this. The OP that started this bile swap...

... was about radical feminism, and men (yes, men) who perpetrate, engage in, condone, support, are complicit with, etc... violence against women.

You posted a defensive response saying (I'm paraphrasing here) "You shouldn't say things like that because I'm in the room listening and I'm not like Those Other Men."

So you, a member of the DU "club," read an outcry of rage targeted at the systemic and pandemic oppression of women, and instead of offering words of support or sympathy, postured a defensive whine about how we shouldn't talk about YOU this way. You could have chosen silence - but you did not.

Don't you get it? If it ain't about you, then it ain't about you.

Like I said, only you know where you're at.

I apologize for the STFU by the way. It was inappropriate to post publicly. I usually keep those thoughts to myself. I'm sorry.

[hfojvt]

186. The OP made it about me and all of us males

"50% of the population hates us"

There's no way I can avoid being part of that 50% is there? If she'd said 10% or even 30% I would have thought the latter was an exxageration, but I could have comfortably felt that it was a targeted slur instead of a group slur.

And if it's a 'male attitude' or a 'male whatever' that seems to include me too. If it was an 'alpha male attitude' or a cultural indoctrination, then that's different. I think there are more appropriate ways to frame it.

And, like I said, the part about cleaning toilets for minimum wage hit a little bit close to home.

I know where I am, but when allies are poking me in the eye with a sharp stick I try to remind them, we are supposed to be allies, and furthermore that this is not the best way to recruit new members. It is not about me. As far as I can tell, most guys are not like that either. It's about my dad, my BiLs, my uncles, etc.

[ThomCat]

188. You and I are both part of that 50%.

We are both part of the male culture, and get all the male privileges that come with it. As a part of that group we are part of the problem.

Our choice is whether we whine and complain when feminists try to oppose oppressive male culture and privilege, or whether we join them in fighting it.

"Male" and "Men" can be used in a general sense without meaning you specificially. If you choose to get defensive about it, that's your problem. You're choosing to fight feminists instead of helping them.

I suggest that you get over the semantic masterbation "men" and "male" and do something to help. Stop being so defensive and insecure and just do something positive.

We need people who do things, not complainers.

[hfojvt]

216. I'm probably worse

because I don't believe there are 'male privileges'.

Male cannot be used generally without including me, because I am male. Give me an example. If it is a 'male attitude' then, as a male, I must have it too. Now, if it is the 'typical' male attitude, then the word male has been modified.

The whole business of doing something, seems like a red herring. I am not necessarily doing any more or less than you or the OP. We are discussing something on a message board. What would you suggest I do - work for Hillary's campaign?

Maybe this fight will help feminists if they learn how to frame their message better to keep from alienating people. But noooo, they, and you, would rather attack people who complain about their demonstrated bigotry. Should I post a thread that says 'women suck' and then tell the women to stop whining when they complain about it? I can just tell them they are being defensive and insecure.

[ThomCat]

225. Male Privilege

I can't believe I'm going over something this basic. :eyes:

http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html

The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex.

22. If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.

27. If I buy a new car, chances are I'll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

28. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal…," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if i don't change my name.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

37. If I have a wife or girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she'll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.

41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.

42. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Edit to correct spacing and numbering.

[noamnety]

235. "I can't believe I'm going over something this basic. "

I can't either. :D

You have a heck of a lot of patience.

[ThomCat]

236. I have a heck of a lot of stuborn.

:)

[hfojvt]

252. I wasn't asking you to 'go over something that basic'

I have seen lists like that, and I remain unimpressed. The very first one seems wrong in my experience, even down to the last job I applied for.

It may thus be true that we do not agree on the basics. Unless there are observations or facts even more basic. I gave some facts for this:

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.

Crime rates against men being higher than crime rates against women, maybe men should be taught to fear walking alone.

and this one:

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.

Seems to glide right over the male privilege of "having a better chance of being in prison, being in the military, or being in a dangerous job". Also, the privileged existence of males is so great that a much larger percentage of them kill themselves.

But let's not go round and round on this side topic.

[noamnety]

260. Not a statistics major, I'm guessing

"The very first one seems wrong in my experience, even down to the last job I applied for."

"My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed."

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml

after adjusting for "annual hours worked, time out of the labor force, work experience, highest education achieved, full-time versus part-time schedule, length of unemployment, tenure, occupation, industry, self-employment status, and numerous demographic variables," the pay gap that remained, based on gender alone (not habits attributed to gender like child-rearing), was 21%. Before the adjustments, the average pay for a man was $35,942 and for a woman, $16,554. (pg. 29)
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

[hfojvt]

262. you guessed wrong

I was a math major, emphasis in statistics and an economics major in graduate school. So I have at least heard the word econometrics even if I no longer have a clue how to do a regression.

Plus, if I have good odds, you'd think I would not lose bet after bet after bet.

Those average comparisons though, are no more meaningful than when George Bush talked about 'average tax cuts'.

"Before the adjustments, the average pay for a man was $35,942 and for a woman, $16,554."

"This is my approach: tax relief for everybody, in every bracket, averaging $1,600 per family..."

Two averages used to tell a lie IMO.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

245. No Male Privileges

Male Privilege #1: People don't lobby in large numbers to control your sex life, fertility, and the question of whether or not you'll have children.

Male Privilege #2: You earn more. In general, you enjoy the more prestigious, higher-paying jobs.

Male Privilege #3: You are safer. You know the members of the opposite sex have been raised to defer to you, rather than confront you.

It's called reality. It's your friend.

[hfojvt]

251. In general, welcome to DU

"In general, you enjoy the more prestigious, higher paying jobs"

That's the thing, the general does not extend to everybody. Since I have never had more prestigious, higher paying jobs, and since, in fact, the last job that I applied for went to a woman. I certainly do not seem to be getting these male privileges. I can quote you statistics about the number of men living in poverty if you want.

I think I know my own reality very well, thank you.

[ThomCat]

254. Nothing has to be Absolute in order to be true.

If you think male privilage has to extend equally, all the time, to all men before you'll consider it real then you're just making excuses to ignore what's really happening.

To turn your logic around, the feminists here would have to be bashing all men, all the time, because you can claim their bashing men.

You can't have it both ways.

[noamnety]

261. In other words:

Until ALL men make more than ALL women, some men will refuse to acknowledge that discrimination against women in the workforce exists.

[hfojvt]

264. I am not denying discrimination, nor excusing it

However, the claim has been advanced that all men DO make more than all women who work the exact same jobs, and that's a load of hooey. In fact, women like Hillary laud it as a victory for justice and equality when women get paid just as much as men - for doing less work (Wimbledon).

And secondly, for example, the fact that white people make more, on average, than black people, does not translate into a privilege for white people living in poverty. Theoretically, they have better odds of escaping poverty, but until they actually do escape poverty, as very many apparently do not, better odds means a little bit less than diddly/squat.

[noamnety]

265. Not a single person has made that claim

"the claim has been advanced that all men DO make more than all women who work the exact same jobs,"

Your second point very nicely makes racism invisible, and treats it as something that does not exist, that does not need to be addressed.

The fact that one white man (you) might be still living in poverty does not erase the white male power structure in this country, or white male privilege, and I'm not sure what your motivation is in claiming otherwise.

Racism exists. Misogyny exists.
Why don't you speak out against it, instead of speaking out against the people that are pointing out it exists?

[Dora]

191. Further down, UPanther says more....

I stand in the face of these men who search for, "slut rape", and "sexy girls being beaten and raped". I stand in the face of all the men that have stolen my sense of safety and security. I stand in your face Richard, and Scott and Kevin. I stand in the faces of Steven and Shawn and Brian. I stand in the faces of all the men who would take what I never offered and I stand in the face of the fucker who stole the innocence and youth from the girl who wrote me just today.

It's not about you. It's about the men who think rape is hot. Who think they can take sex if they want it. It's about men who think women should die - just because they are women. It's about honor killings and it's about date rapes and it's about your next door neighbor backhanding his wife as he screams at her and it's about Humbert Humberts all over this country looking a little girl and seeing a target.

No, no, and no again. It's not about you. It does no good for any woman who has suffered at the hands of a man *because* she is a woman, for you to say, "But I'm not hurting you."

You may not be hurting us, but neither are you helping.

Lend a hand, or stand aside. Whining gets you nowhere.

[Scout]

156. can't you just do it because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

or do all the feminists have to suck up and kiss your man-butt and be nice to you? Can't you do it for your mother, your sister, your grandmother, etc??

[lostinacause]

29. In reading her words by the end I was more saddened by how she

choose to respond then by what had happened to her. There is an underlining tone that (all) men are to blame and an overwhelming amount of rage. I could go on with what this entails but we all know what discrimination and anger look like. We only need to look to the right and their views on "terrorists".

[undergroundpanther]

40. Hating a culture of patriarchy

Does not mean you hate men.You hate the culture created by men and tolerated by men and excused by men.

And if men feel their identities tied up in the privliges of patriarchy than they will be threatened by anyone who hates the culture of patriarchy,because it undermines what they think makes them entitled .

If you go back in this thread,you will notice I was in support of ThomCat.. a male. A male with the courage and GUTS to stand against the culture of patriarchy,as a man be a feminist, a RADICAL feminist.I admire Thomcat I even told him I was his fan..If that is hating all men you are ignorant.


Why doesn’t anyone give men loads of unasked for advice? And why shouldn’t male personal lives be made to serve a greater feminist good? "OK guys, you need to help fix inequalities in society, so you should stay home for five years after your children are born." Can you see that article getting lots of hits? If anyone glanced at it, he or she would assume it was a joke and move on.

http://www.agoravox.com/article.php3?id_article=4251

[lostinacause]

86. It's inconvienient that you mention men staying home after children are born as a way of fixing

inequality. I would love to have the role of being the primary person to raise a child. It is, as I see it, a perk of being female under the social norms; a norm that I would gladly disregard. The place where modern feminism has gone wrong, in my opinion, is in the search for perfect equality. The idea that men and women should statistically have the same roles is a mistake. Men and women are psychologically different. Because of this and the need for different roles in society social norms will form. This is not problematic. The problem arises when one group of the population gets a bad deal from the norm.

An example of this would be the existence of a pay differential between men and women. Men generally value having higher income more then women. Currently more females are graduating from university. In spite of a major effort to entice women into business, engineering and medicine; women generally choose other faculties with lower incomes. While some may see this as problematic, I see people choosing to do what they like rather then to do what makes them money. If this is an indication of a general difference in attitude between the two genders then there would be a differential in the salaries between men and women that would be acceptable. It would also be acceptable to have a more males in executive positions. The naive analysis that comes out of most feminist groups and that is echoed by many feminists does not take into account these differences in attitudes. Certainly men and women having the same desire for money and working in the same position should get the same wage if they are equally skilled and have the same amount of experience. There should also be no artificial barriers to advancement.

I should note that that I also started in a "high income" degree and have since switched to a "low income" degree. Being able to abandon certain norms such as gender norms is important to the health of society.

[knitter4democracy]

183. So many things wrong there . . .

First of all, why are those "low income" degrees low income? Could it be that they are traditionally done by women?

I have a friend who's a stay-at-home dad. His wife's a doctor, and he decided that he couldn't make enough with his history degree to pay for the child care, so he stays home. It works for them, and he's not the only one in our play group. So, their switching roles is a mistake?

Even when women go into engineering and other higher income areas, they still make less than male peers. My SIL is an environmental engineer, and she ran into that all the time--she was the better qualified one, worked her butt off, was the one no one could get anything done without, and she wasn't promoted like her male peers. My brother, also an engineer, made more than she did, even with similar hours and all, and he was the one fast-tracked to management. This was when they were both at Ford. Women doctors tend to make less than men, even when they're in the exact same field doing the exact same job.

The norm is to devalue women. We do hard work, and we get paid little for it. That's the norm, just because we're women. Even when we go into business or medicine or engineering, we have to fight tooth and nail to get the same treatment and pay.

I watched a male math teacher mess up the math in a report and then publically belittle the female head of the English department who called him on his math errors. We all sat there shocked that he was so sexist in a staff meeting of the entire school with the female principal sitting right there. The principal did not defend her colleague but instead let him yell and call her names in front of the entire faculty until a couple of us spoke up to defend her. He maintained that she was "just a woman" and couldn't possibly understand the difficult math involved (stats). He had just come from many years in the army and supposedly was used to working with high-ranking women and had been trained in sensitivity training and all (according to him). If a guy like him with the training and background he had couldn't really respect a woman in public, even when she questioned his work, what hope do so many of us have of being respected in the workplace?

When I taught, I had students sexually harrass me, I had students feel it was okay to scream in my face, and I had a desk thrown at me. I was told that my opinion was worthless because I was "just a woman teacher and who cares" and I was told to be quiet in staff meetings because a man was talking. I've been chased at night through a small village by a couple of drunks trying to rape the few of us just trying to walk back to our hotel, and I've had my bra strap snapped like it was funny. I had a boss continually take credit for my hard work and then turn around and make sexist jokes when the owner was gone. None of these are unusual--they are merely part of being female in this culture.

[ThomCat]

49. Do we all really know what discrimination looks like?

When white people look at a situation that black people insist is racist, often the white people insist it's not.

When women insist that a situation is sexist many men insist that it isn't.

When many of us who have disabilities insist that we're being excluded and disregarded, non-disabled people often look at us like we're crazy and insist it's not true.

People in the more dominant position often refuse to recognize any form of discrimination that isn't entirely blatant and in-your-face. If it isn't too obvious to ignore, then it apparently doesn't count. And some people who are subject to discrimination have a lot of incentive to buy into that attitude, and do, and deny that discrimination is taking place.

So what is this discrimination that you insist everyone knows about?

[Katherine Brengle]

58. Male privilege and patriarchy are to blame.

[knitter4democracy]

59. And that disconnect explains so very much.

You were more saddened by her response than by her being raped?! Really? You've got to be kidding.

I am married to a wonderful man who is amazingly supportive of me and my needs, and yet he will never know the fear of walking in our neighborhood at night or travelling alone or stopping at a rest stop in the middle of the day on his way home from work just to go to the bathroom. He will never look on any other guy as a possible attacker--which is every woman's normal way of life.

We live in deep-down fear of being attacked. Rape is so common, and assaults are so common, and even verbal slams and slurs are so common that you've gotten used to it as normal. Who are the real terrorists here? I'd think it was the rapists, the attackers, the sexist pigs who objectify women every chance they get--not the women who have survived their attacks and are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

You might want to ask yourself why that was your response first before pointing any fingers.

[Katherine Brengle]

61. Perfectly said.

[Lilith Velkor]

30. We need radical feminists with GUNS

..., knives, swords, baseball bats, chains, broom handles, fists, feet, and the knowledge of how to use them all effectively.

[undergroundpanther]

33. Hell yes!

Dworkin is fully aware that the price to be paid for the defense of women is pain and suffering. Nevertheless, she implores women to actively resist: "I am asking you to stop men who beat women. Get them jailed or get them killed, but stop them. Men who rape make a choice to rape. And men who beat women make a choice to beat women. And we women now have choices that we have to make to fight back." "I am asking you to look at every single political possibility for fighting back--instead of saying, 'I asked him, I told him, but he just wouldn't stop.' We need to find ways to do it together. But we need to do it" ...

women with guns fight back
women who pick up guns and learn how to defend themselves are not easily victimized. Maria, Tiffany and Lisa are using the abusive incident to educate people about media bias regarding gun ownership.
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0506.html
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/other/OrthDworkin.html
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/index.html

And this should make it painfully aware what we need to do
http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n12/wilson.html

The pink pistols page says armed gays don't get bashed
http://www.pinkpistols.org/
Could that slogan the pink pistols use also apply that Armed women don't get assaulted by men ?

If a rapist knows most women he sees on the street are armed women willing to blow a rapists brains all over the sidewalk And if he rapes a unarmed woman an armed woman will be there to defend her sister and blow the rapists brains all over the sidewalk to stop the rape ..the rapist might begin to think before he acts.His male privileges might not be there anymore. Rape will end when the cost to the rapist himself,is made too high,made too risky to himself for him to bother with the trouble to rape a woman or man..

If he wants to rape make it cost him.Whatever it takes to make the message clear that rape is not tolerated. If the culture tolerates rape it does not mean each of us as individuals have to tolerate it.

[denixen]

124. Self Defense in General

In Korea, an education in Taekwondo is compulsory. I once met a woman who had spent a few years in the Korean school system. When I asked her whether she was worried about walking home in the dark, she got this predatory look in her eyes. Oh yes she said, very worried, for the guy with the broken balls.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why girls are 'educated' as cheerleaders, schooled in getting the best times over 100 meters, or even taught gymnastics without being given the basics of self defense. The modus operandi of martial arts is using an opponent's superior strength, weight and momentum against them.

The greatest weapon an attacker has is fear. Fear of a physical affront that the person has not experienced. After 20 times of being grabbed and taking action, that fear fades.

If schools can spend a mint on sports, why in hell's name can't they stump up for something that will be valuable all life long.

[undergroundpanther]

208. I don't know much martial arts

But I fought off an attacker by biting his face. I was like 20,
And when he pulled away.I still had his face in my teeth, I had enough room and I hit the side of his kneecap he went down and I stomped him over and over with my full weight. kicking his head as he curled into a fetal position. His accomplice was so freaked he just ran. I was snarling and I will kill any rapist who thinks they can just take it from me.I HATE rapists..And if they think that I won't fight well They might find their favorite weapon ripped right off.I don't care about how my self defense and anger harmed that wannabe rapist shit head. I hope I killed him. When I left he was breathing but looked like hell. I took one of his teeth lying near him and cursed him with it.I hope he is suffering forever.

[wicket]

44. I'm working on that

:D

[ThomCat]

50. We need radical feminists with crowds behind them

and money and influence to make some serious changes.

We need radical feminists with clout and impact, who will have our support when they inevitably get called man-haters.

[Chovexani]

62. I'm a radical feminist with an entire wall of swords

I feel sorry for the poor bastard who tries to break into my house. :evilgrin:

[undergroundpanther]

217. Swords huh?

Since You are into blades too. I might as well show you something..
This is an ornamental but I think it's just gorgeous.
I like my swords too,things of deadly beauty.. I like throwing knives and my poi torches.Helps me relax.
Here is the sword I am blown away by currently,..The design is just is so cool.Usless in battle but damn pretty.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/swblades_1951_212199969

[Chovexani]

242. That's pretty!

I have my share of battle-ready weapons but I have to admit a weakness for purely ornamental blades, too.

I'm partial to scimitars. I've been looking for "mine" for a long time, but haven't found it yet.

[Gloria]

31. Damn, I've been with this for about 40 YEARS!!!!!! And it seems

we're going backwards! If I hear that shit Limbaugh talking about "FemiNazis" once more.....I'd love to castrate that piece of crap, as the poster boy for the bullshit we have to put up with...

[undergroundpanther]

34. Yeah

And do it after he's been weaned off the oxycontin..I want him to FEEL it.
Men who choose to use their penises as weapons against others without regard need to be disarmed...

[Blue_Tires]

35. k+r

[OzarkDem]

51. Of course we do

And we need them out there battling on all fronts for women - jobs, health care, etc. While sexual violence and reproductive issues are incredibly important, we sometimes lose track of the other areas where women need advocacy and equality.

[kimmylavin]

54. Radical Feminist Here

And a rape survivor.
And married to a fantastic man.

"Feminist" has never meant "man hater" to me.
You've just got to encourage those men who were raised right, teach and/or punish those who weren't.

[Katherine Brengle]

55. Brilliant.

There are no words.

Thank you.

[noamnety]

60. k&r (nt)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

64. I understand painting with the...

broadbrush of "men". Sadly, I myself view "men" as potential perpetrators. I know, have known, and dated amazing men who are kind, compassionate, nonviolent towards women, and fully supportive of women and women's rights. Yet, I cannot help how I view "men".

I honestly don't think guys can ever truly "get" why a woman would feel this way -- they can empathize, understand -- but, unless they have walked around with a pair of tits and a vagina for a few years, never know.

I am one of the few lucky women I know who has not been molested by a male relative, raped, or beaten. But I have experienced the hundreds of little and not so little "assaults" by men - the rubbing of an erection against my back while riding a bus, the exposing of genitals in public, the being followed, the sexually harrassing yells and whispers.

Guys, I ask you -- when was the last time you were followed by someone from a club late at night to your car? Someone who tried to open your car door and, when they couldn't, whipped out their penis and tried to ejaculate onto your car window?

When did you last worry if what you were wearing was too provocative and could be seen as inviting unwanted attention?

When was the last time you had to duck into a shop, worried that the guy following behind you on the street had bad intentions towards you?

When was the last time you felt a sense of panic because a car full of men pulled up alongside you while you were walking, or a group of men were coming towards you on the sidewalk?

When was the last time you were offered a ride from a male, casual aquaintence and worried if it was safe to accept?

When did any of those things happen to you and the first thing you thought was, "Is this something that is going to lead to me being raped?"

That is the reality for women you know every single day of their lives, young and old, beautiful and homely, straight and lesbian.

"Men" rape, beat, kidnap, and kill women acros this globe -- and women become radicalized in response.

Can you honestly blame them?

[Katherine Brengle]

66. This post deserves a thread itself.

They really don't understand. Even the good guys.

Those who take the time to consider it and come to understand it on some level are very very rare.

For the vast majority, it's not *their* problem.

[donsu]

85. true, my mama warned me starting around age 3, that I was 'bait'

and what that meant.

thank you mama.

[ThomCat]

98. I wonder if any guy can really understand what that's like,

to be taught from such a young age, and throughout your entire childhood, that you are target for men's sexual aggression.

For all of my experience with survivors of rape and child sexual assault I still can't imagine what that must be like for any child.

[ThomCat]

97. Very well said.

I'll admit that this was one of the hardest lessons to internallize. In the eyes of women, we are all potential rapists, potential stalkers, potential threats. And this isn't meant to insult any one personally. It's just a way of staying safe, because if a women gets attacked the first thing guys are going to do is blame her for not being wary enough, and for somehow putting herself in that situation.

Men blame women when they are not careful enough, and then blame them when they are. And it's all part of male privilage that says it's never men's fault.

Yes, women have a right to generalize men as threats, and safety requires that women do so. No, we don't have a right to be offended by this. Women have a right to safety, far more than we have any right to be patted on the back as good boys.

[AngryAmish]

100. I agree completely

I honestly don't think women can ever truly "get" why men feel the way men do-- they can empathize, understand -- but, unless they have walked around with the appropriate equipment for a few years, never know.

[aikoaiko]

65. The Rad Fems of the 1970-80s made being anti-rape unradical by the 1990s.

And I support her speaking out against mock rape depictions, but I will not support legislation against it (which is where those discussion almost always go).

[Katherine Brengle]

68. I don't understand what you mean by that.

You mean you wouldn't support legislation criminalizing rape as entertainment?

[aikoaiko]

74. mock rape = acted out depictions of rape,

As long as the people in the video are consenting adults, I don't think the government has any business criminalizing it. Having said that I support people who speak out against it.

[Lilith Velkor]

96. Yup.

Freedom of expression works both ways.

That being said, I think that conflating violent-themed entertainment with actual violence does more harm than good.

[Katherine Brengle]

250. The way I see it, shit like that promotes rape culture.

It is harmful, inherently, to women and therefore should not be protected.

[aikoaiko]

266. I don't disagree that it promotes rape culture, but government is not in the business of culture.

Protecting the miserable speech of some is the difficult part of being a liberal.

[Jed Dilligan]

179. Legislation like that would only mean

that movies dealing with rape, like "The Accused," would be censored. Mock-rape porn would be pushed underground (probably turned into real rape porn) and flourish. We have to change the culture, not censor it.

[Chovexani]

67. My story

I've told my story here before but I think it bears repeating in this thread. I was in a sick, sick "relationship" when I was 14 with a guy twice my age who I met on a MUD (for non-geeks, think of it as the text-based spiritual ancestor of massive online roleplaying games like World of Warcraft and Everquest)...I wish those Dateline Predator shows existed in 1995. This bastard stole my innocence and my self-esteem...I had Stockholm Syndrome to the extreme because in my broken mind this was the only person who cared for me. Only looking back do I realize how fucked up that entire situation was and how brainwashed he had me. He did time in Club Fed and was out of my life (I've heard rumors that he committed suicide a few years ago) but the damage was done. I was raped again when I was 16, by another guy twice my age. I later found out this guy was a serial predator in our local Pagan community that preyed on young Witches from broken homes where their spiritual choices were not tolerated and they had to lead double lives out of fear (his wife owned a magick shop at the time). I never came forward with it because I was terrified my fundie mom would find out I was a Witch hanging out in an occult shop to begin with and that she would blame me and my belief system. As far as I know he is still up to this shit.

I've been to therapy, been medicated to the point of being numb, but being a survivor is what radicalized me. I am a Radical Ecofeminist because this entire system of power-over domination that starts in patriarchy is what is wrong with this twisted society. It is all about humanocentric fear of the other which must be crushed, taming the wild/kinky/freaky and placing people into tiny boxes...rape the women/children/brown people/land into submission because the Lord said so in the "Good" Book. It's a disease and a plague on our planet and it's long past time for some fucking chemotherapy.

[Katherine Brengle]

69. Good for you --

I applaud your strength.

And I hate what happened to you.

[ThomCat]

71. I knew you were a strong person when I met you.

:hug:

I'm glad you're strong enough to survive all of that.

[Chovexani]

76. That means a lot coming from you

Another of my favorite DUers--someone who actually "gets it"! :hug:

[I Have A Dream]

73. Chovexani....

You are a brave and beautiful person. I'm so sorry that you had to go through what you did. :(

:hug::hug:

[undergroundpanther]

211. Purrs to you

And someday Chovexani we will take the empire of power over down and stomp it to dust..and dance over it's demise..WE will be free,and we may have to offend alot of Unreasonable people playing as if they were reasonable.We may have to crack alot of heads or shatter this world into pieces..But there is only so much abuse one can suffer before one says NO MORE.

"Spiritual violence is most dangerous when it is most spiritual --that is least emotional. Violence which acts in the depths of the will without any surface upheaval carries our whole being into captivity with no apparent struggle. Such is the violence of deliberate and unresisted sin which seems to be not violence but peace".
Thomas Merton

Do not negotiate your self away, do not compromise your needs, yourself, your hearts desire with psychopaths and dominators, no matter how'reasonable;' they appear.Because these people are NOT reasonable they are abusers velvet gloved sadists..


"We will no longer attempt to prove how reasonable we can be.
We will go before them, face to face, to fight for our freedom.
We will not be held hostage to their administrative efficiency.
We will not keep to our place. We will never again be put away.
We are freedom fighters now. And this is war."
-- Mouth Magazine

Chovexani ThomCat and to the many others who dare call themselves RAdical Feminists here, YOU THAT have the courage to GET IT, Together we will break apart this cultural cage built for supporting the big lie of authoritarianism all the rationalizations and put downs rules and lies. It will evaporate in the fire of our collective will focused on the cause of our oppression,and I know it cannot stand for it's foundation is FEAR.

We will shatter the beliefs and status quo that binds us all down in this patriarchy.And there is nothing the males who think they own us and think they are "masters" can DO about it.

All we need to do is just decide, we will quit playing thier game,quit trying to look reasonable to the unreasonable,no more of this patriarchal game. Than we must act on that decision ,Demonstrate to the deluded and the bullies we MEAN what we say.We must BE THERE for each other defend each other in any way that STOPS the ABUSE.
We must tell our stories and shout down the bullies,and humiliate the assholes,take away the dick privleges,by force if needed, fearlessly, and let them know we will not be playing by their rules anymore.

We must protect each other for we are all in this TOGETHER.Be it on DU or on the street, we must inspire motivate and give others a taste of hope,.NO MORE TOLERANCE FOR THE INTOLERABLE! No more excuses for the inexcusable, no more kindness to the cruel.When every survivor has gotten a taste of freedom from domination, she will get the courage and her anger will rise to impale every abuser on the blood covered sword of her own story,the sword of her blood her tears her pain,and destroy domination with her anger and run the lie called patriarchy through with it, until it dies.And with no more lords,masters and archons we will be able to heal than. There will be peace, we will rule ourselves each a kingdom of 1,and we will be free.

[kalibex]

70. Amen!

Good choice - BB doth rawk with the eloquence....


-B

[Caoimhe]

72. I agree completely

And I've often wondered what it would feel like to be able to walk down the street without the lingering fear of being accosted, abducted or violently assaulted or killed. You hear about these people alone who walk across the country to bring attention to a cause. I can't even fathom having the mental freedom to even attempt such a thing.

When I was in college there was some serial rapist with a flashing light that would "pull over" unsuspecting females on the road after dark, then yank them from the vehicle and rape & brutalize them. He got away with it for a long time. Unfortunately that road was my commute from home to college. My mom bought me a man's hat and i would tuck my hair up into it, and wear plain tshirts. This was just to get home from school. I can't help but think that this might have saved me from that predator scum. He was never caught as far as I know. After my first year, I moved into the city and didn't have to drive that road, but I have always had my whiskers out since. I always carry mace and when walking to my car I put my keys between my fingers, so i can gouge at anyone who grabs me. Just the ritual of doing that helps calm me. It's terrible that we live in 2007 and women still have to think like this, isn't it?

[donsu]

246. I have a small, key sized, pocket knife, opened, that I hold

surprise being our only hope

[cedahlia]

80. Thank you

Thanks to the OP for this much-needed and powerful statement, and to everyone within the thread who has told their own story. Rape is a tragedy that I will never understand, and will always rage against. :grouphug: to my fellow radicals.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. No We Don't. We Don't Need Radical Anybodies. In This Context, We Need Dedicated And Committed

feminists. But that doesn't make them radical.

Once feminism croses the line into hatred and sexism, it is no longer beneficial to society. That holds true whenever reason and intellect is replaced with hatred and some form of bigotry.

What humored me the most about the article was how the background premise of it was sound and touching, yet there was no correlation nor explanation as to how or why being a 'radical' feminist is necessary. So it used a serious topic with serious implications and emotions, to conclude that radical feminists are necessary, without actually having explained in just what ways.

Feminists are necessary. Awareness is necessary. Action is necessary. Hatred and sexism is not.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

94. Strange, few men appear to have a problem

when the patriarchy "crosses the line line into hatred and sexism." If African-Americans had listened to people who told them to "be patient and wait, heaven forbid, don't offend anyone," they'd still be getting killed when they try to vote.

I always find it funny how many men, when confronted with the idea of women hating them and getting violent back at them, turn into Martin Luther King. I guess hatred and violence are bad only when they're directed at the social elites.

Gee, and I thought this was a liberal board.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. Not Sure What World You're Living In, But In The Real One Every Man I Know Has A Problem With That.

I'd love to see justification of "few men appear to have a problem when the patriarchy "crosses the line line into hatred and sexism." ".

Not sure what kind of men you're hangin around, but if that's true for you then I could understand your hatred. Maybe you need to find better men to be around.

But though undoubtedly there are sexist hateful patriarchal assholes amongst us, almost every man I know would have a problem with hatred and sexism towards women. So I challenge your assertion that only 'few' would.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

99. Maybe Malcolm X needed to find better white people to be around

[ThomCat]

109. Yet, every time sexism gets pointed out here at DU

you're right there insisting that it's not sexist, attacking or lecturing the feminists.

I guess if you don't recognize sexism when you see it then nobody is sexist. I guess if we all just thought like you then sexism would cease to exist.
:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. That's An Attack Rooted In Monumentally Misguided Perception.

Show me ONE time I've called something not sexist that was.

I call out misguided extremism, bigotry, hatred, or sexism. But I 100% am against sexism in any form towards any gender, or any bigotry at all for that matter.

So maybe it isn't a matter of me not recognizing sexism. Maybe instead it's a case of radical narrow minded extremists speaking false premises, of which I've railed against.

One need not lose all sense of rationality and objectivity to support feminism or equal rights.

[ThomCat]

113. You imply that you have a sense of rationality and objectivity.

I've yet to see it.

On every thread about sexism, rape, misogyny, homophobia (Especially homophobia), and racism you've been on the wrong side. You are always attacking and lecturing the activists. Where is this supposed support of yours?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. It's Obvious I Do, To Those That Are As Well.

"On every thread about sexism, rape, misogyny, homophobia (Especially homophobia), and racism you've been on the wrong side"

Yet another irrational and bullshit attack from you, with nothing to back it up. C'mon pal, put some meat behind your attacks. I'd LOVE to see you support this wild and made up accusation of yours. C'mon, paste some examples. You want to assassinate my character then you best be ready to back it up pal. Prove it. Show people you aren't just attacking irrationally and making things up like a child. Show how on every thread on those topics I'm on the wrong side. Maybe, you've been perceiving that which is wrong, and right, in a monumentally flawed fashion? Ever think of that? Maybe, just maybe, just because someone doesn't agree with your extremist perceptions doesn't make them being on the wrong side. Ever open your mind to that possibility? To the possibility that not everyone or everytime someone disagrees with you, they're wrong?

You're a piece of work pal. You really are.

Now c'mon. Go back your shit up now.

(And I don't lecture activists. I lecture irrational extremists and those issuing false or misguided premises. Huge difference pal. HUGE.)

[noamnety]

132. hmmmm.

OP: "Extremely Vulgar Language. XM Shock Jocks Opie and Anthony engage in discussion about forced sex with the Secretary of State. A studio guest, Homeless Charlie, begins describing the scenario as the hosts laugh and encourage him. Anthony talks about the horror for Rice as the guest is "holding her down" and assaulting her. They invite Charlie to be a regular guest."

OPERATIONMINDCRIME: O & A Crack Me Up. Sure, They're Crude At Times, But Damn Friggin Funny Too!

You can't take them too seriously. They're just radio personalities.

Skit was overall harmless though relatively speaking. I thought it was gonna be far worse, knowing them. I personally didn't find it funny, but since I'm familiar with them and their personalities I'm not offended by it either. It's just typical shock jock nonsense ya know?

Dude, I am sorry to have to break this to you, but you consistently refer to women as whores, as shrill, as shrieking, you consistently say that hate speech against women is a nonissue, when women tell you an ad is eroticizing rape, you are always right there telling women they are wrong, that you know better than them whether something is or isn't sexist.

You take the Barbara Bush approach to describing the plight of women who turned to prostitution out of "sheer desperation" (your words) as an "opportunity" they ought to be "thankful" for. I'm guessing if the tables were turned, if you lost your medical insurance and had a medical crisis and had to raise money to survive, or if you found yourself in a violent prison - let's say on false charges - you wouldn't be "thankful" for the chance to have men screw you in the ass in order to survive. I haven't a clue why you think women should be "thankful" for that chance.

That's not feminism. That's not even moderate feminism.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

141. What On Earth Are You Talking About? Jesus.

Hate to break this to you, but I have never referred to women as whores, have not referred to them as shrill or shrieking, with exception to Rosie, and would love to see you back up the assertion that I consistently say hate speech against women is a non issue. Furthermore, that ONE, yes ONE thread with the erotic ad I had my own opinion (which most shared) that didn't align with yours. But so fucking what? I'm not allowed to have my opinion on the ad? Most people were of the same perception I was. Are you that stubborn and insecure in your positions that you can't handle someone having a different viewpoint?

And what the fuck are you talking about with a barbara bush approach? How dare you imply such disgusting things about me. This just shows further the skewed perception some of you have towards others and the disgraceful attacks you throw at them that are totally unwarranted.

And the O & A thing was simply a disagreement of perception. I know what to expect from them and don't take it that seriously. You do. Yay for you. But I don't have to be radical like you or extremist like you in order to support feminism or the concepts of equality. You and the other radicals can attack me all you want. The attacks are unwarranted and are of totally indefensible premise. You and your ilk constantly attack members here who don't align with your extreme positions. But maybe it isn't them that's the problem. Maybe it's you and the others like you.

Bye.

[ThomCat]

144. Right, you're on almost every feminist's ignore list

because you're just so misunderstood.

You're on almost every LGBT activist's ignore list because we're wrong and you're right.
:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

148. I Would Expect Extremists To Not Want To Listen To Objectivity. Makes Perfect Sense.

No, it isn't feminists or GLBT's ignore lists, it's extremists ignore lists or people who are too narrow minded to be able to handle objective opinions ignore lists. And I'm proud to be on them. I have no desire to have non-objective extremists like me. I really don't.

But I've known many feminists in my time and used to live in a house with 3 of them (they actually saved me from living in my car). I used to love talking to them about things and we got along great. But they weren't irrational either. I've also been close on many occasions with members of the GLBT community and some of my fondest memories of my life are due to them. So this whole bullshit irrational and indefensible premise of me being an enemy to those in the GLBT and feminist community is just a creation of your own mind, and it doesn't surprise me. I've seen how you and some of the others have constantly attacked people of this forum who aren't as extremist in opinion. It's disgraceful to see and totally counter-productive to discussion. It makes talking about things absolutely worthless, since the conversation will always degenerate so quickly into ignorant bullshit attacks like "You're a sexist! You're a homophobe! You're a racist! blah blah friggin blah!". It's such a crock of crap.

So have at your attacks. They're empty and they're meaningless.

[ThomCat]

155. Your claim to objectivity is what's meaningless.

It's nothing but meaningless ego.

And so is your claim that "some of my best friends are _________." We've heard it before.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

157. Some Of Us Are, And Some Of Us Aren't.

My posts prove I am. Not sure how yours fare.

Bye now.

[ThomCat]

161. LOL!

Claiming that you're "objective" is basically slight of hand to claim that you're right and everyone else is wrong. It's pure ego and nothing else.
:rofl:

There is no objectivity. And claims of objectivity are nothing but a shield for bias and arrogance.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

167. Last Post To You.

Your ignorance shows proud by such a declaration of "Claiming that you're "objective" is basically slight of hand to claim that you're right and everyone else is wrong". No, it means I'm objective. Nowhere does it hint that others are wrong. All it does in infer that YOU have not been objective, and you haven't been. There are others that also fail to be objective. But to say that means I'm right and EVERYONE else is wrong shows how limited in understanding you are. You think that you and those like you incorporate "Everybody". Talk about your ego and arrogance. Jesus.

And I need not have you agree with my being objective. Like I said, I would have no expectation for you to. But I think it's clear to so many how narrow minded you are in discussion and how laughable it is that you have the nerve to accuse someone else as lacking objectivity.

Last post to you. You're a monumental waste of time.

[Scout]

168. that's 3 "last posts" to ThomCat!

at 5:07 (#157 "Bye now"), 5:15 (#164 "I'm done with you") now and this one!

You are so funny :rofl:


edit to add detail

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

185. I Take Care Of All The Outstanding Replies In One Shot.

Then I go no further. I read all three and had responses to all 3, but knew after each last post to each minithread I had no interest in responding to any further responses from him to any of them. Get it? Don't care if you do or not, but it really isn't as contradictory as you're making it. I just close out each mini thread with a last reply, all done right after another. After that, even if he responds to all 3, I will do nothing more than ignore the redundant garbage.

[Scout]

199. uh huh, right. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

241. Holy shit. I thought this was a jewel: "Show me ONE time I've called something not sexist that was"

Seriously? No educated person would ever ask that question. If memory serves they start teaching the basic principles of logic and critical thinking around the eighth grade. If you attended school beyond the seventh grade, someone is owed a refund.

[Jed Dilligan]

175. I have had this exact same conversation

so many times. I feel for you, man. At least OMC keeps "extremist" threads kicked on a consistent basis.

[ThomCat]

178. That's true. Let's be thankful for positive side effects.

:)

[Raksha]

238. Not this feminist's ignore list...an oversight that will be corrected shortly.

Aside from his function in keeping interesting threads kicked, this egotistical windbag has NO redeeming social value.

[noamnety]

166. I guess you forgot Barbara's quote about the Katrina victims, eh?

Some other observations. Search your name, and the phrase "attention whore." Is there a pretty even mix of when you've used it for men vs. women?

Now search "shrill."

"avoid sounding shrill"? Have you ever given that particular bit of advice to Edwards, Clark, Gore, Obama ... etc? You think Hillary's "shrill"? Or because she's a woman, she needs to avoid sounding like that, cause, you know, that's how women get? What spurred that piece of advice?

Why do you - as a male feminist, call women "bitchy"?

Why do you post things like this?

"Punchin Her In The Face Was A Bit Too Far. I Would've Given Her Fair Warning First.

If I was the mother, I would've first said something like "Listen you miserable bitch... If you ever tell my kid to shut up again I'm gonna fly over this table and you're gonna be sorry. Now turn around, eat your fuckin dinner and shut the fuck up"."

Actually, nevermind, I see you have explained that all away quite nicely.

"Calling someone a honky or cracker is disparaging an entire race. It is a putdown based on the overall race, not a description or attack on the person themselves. Calling a woman a bitch is NOT a putdown that criticizes women as a whole, but instead is limited exclusively to the individual being attacked. That is a huge difference."

Honky or cracker? Gosh, that's a riot that the words you pick as offensive because they "disparage an entire race" conveniently happen to be words that oppressed people use against people who oppress them.

Of course, you do seem to be an expert on racism, with classic threads informing us why it's not at all racist to call a black man "articulate."

This is another gem: "Now if someone said a statement such as "I gots to get me some bitches" or "screw those women, they's nuttin but stupid ho's", then I can understand your case for misogyny."

mmm-hmmm. "I gots to get me." "they's nuttin but stupid ho's"

Interesting grammar choices from our sexism/racism expert.

You are just a regular old champion of social justice, always fighting the good fight against misogyny, homophobia, and racism from all sides. It must be very frustrating to always be so misunderstood here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

184. Yet More Proof Of My Point.

"Some other observations. Search your name, and the phrase "attention whore." Is there a pretty even mix of when you've used it for men vs. women?

Now search "shrill."

"avoid sounding shrill"? Have you ever given that particular bit of advice to Edwards, Clark, Gore, Obama ... etc? You think Hillary's "shrill"? Or because she's a woman, she needs to avoid sounding like that, cause, you know, that's how women get? What spurred that piece of advice?"

The fact you can object so much to a statement like that is all the proof I need as to how extremist in opinion you're being. Yeah, it was such a crime to say she needs to avoid sounding shrill. If you were actually objective, you'd recognize that she's been attacked for sounding shrill sometimes and you can easily find videos in which this is true. I think it's sound advice that she make sure during some her of her speeches that she not bring it to that level, as many people tune out to such a tone. That ain't fucking sexist, it's just sound fucking advice. And why haven't I said that about Edwards etc? Tell ya what: Find me ONE goddamn video clip of any one of them sounding shrill. Find me one. If they're guilty of it, I'd advise them of that as well. But just the fact you use such an innocent statement within innocent context as an attack on me as if I'm sexist or against women, shows quite readily how skewed and extreme your perception is on this matter.



"Why do you - as a male feminist, call women "bitchy"?"

Bitchy is an adjective. Sometimes someone can act bitchy. Oh, let me guess. Now I'm a sexist pig for saying that. What a crock of shit.



"Why do you post things like this?


"Punchin Her In The Face Was A Bit Too Far. I Would've Given Her Fair Warning First.

If I was the mother, I would've first said something like "Listen you miserable bitch... If you ever tell my kid to shut up again I'm gonna fly over this table and you're gonna be sorry. Now turn around, eat your fuckin dinner and shut the fuck up".""

Context matters. I've explained that countless times already, though you conveniently, as usual, leave out those parts. I was putting myself in the mind of the woman who took action, thinking from the perspective of what SHE might have said and done, not what I, with my demeanor, would've said and done. I don't expect you to get it, so I won't even bother going on about it. And furthermore, just like above, sometimes a woman can be a bitch, same as sometimes a guy can be a prick. No, that doesn't make me a sexist pig to say that. Nice extremism yet again.



"Actually, nevermind, I see you have explained that all away quite nicely.

"Calling someone a honky or cracker is disparaging an entire race. It is a putdown based on the overall race, not a description or attack on the person themselves. Calling a woman a bitch is NOT a putdown that criticizes women as a whole, but instead is limited exclusively to the individual being attacked. That is a huge difference."

Honky or cracker? Gosh, that's a riot that the words you pick as offensive because they "disparage an entire race" conveniently happen to be words that oppressed people use against people who oppress them."

I support that post 100%. It is of sound logic and I see absolutely nothing about it that is objectionable. Amazing that you do. If the discussion wasn't about using the word honky or cracker (which I don't know, since you gave no surrounding context), then I would've chosen those words since they would've been able to make the same logical point, without having to use words that carry far more offense and disgust upon reading them. It's called simple respect for my fellow DU'ers. I don't expect you to get that either.



"Of course, you do seem to be an expert on racism, with classic threads informing us why it's not at all racist to call a black man "articulate.""

Again, nice deceitful bullshit you got there, yet again twisting things and making things up for sake of false character assassination. Such a disgraceful tactic. It really is. I've never informed anybody that it's not at all racist to call a black man articulate. It can be racist. I've stated in context of the Joe Biden incident that it is not ALWAYS racist to do so. And guess what, it isn't. That shows even further how I'm able to be objective depending on individual circumstances and how others can't be, by claiming that JUST because the word articulate is found in reference to a black man, it MUST be racist. What ignorant and narrow minded bullshit that is. In the context of the Biden incident, I have no doubt in my mind he meant nothing racist by it and back then I gave link after link showing why.



"This is another gem: "Now if someone said a statement such as "I gots to get me some bitches" or "screw those women, they's nuttin but stupid ho's", then I can understand your case for misogyny."

mmm-hmmm. "I gots to get me." "they's nuttin but stupid ho's"

Interesting grammar choices from our sexism/racism expert."

What I find interesting is your assertion that those phrases mean I'm referencing a black person or minority. I was actually just referencing an ignorant thug type mindset. But if I find any hint of racism at all, it's in your conclusion that phrases like that mean someone's a minority. You might want to reflect on that a bit.


"You are just a regular old champion of social justice, always fighting the good fight against misogyny, homophobia, and racism from all sides. It must be very frustrating to always be so misunderstood here."

I support all of those causes wholeheartedly and no false attack or warped perception of yours could change that. Is it frustrating to be misunderstood? Nope. I know those doing the misunderstanding are people of which I could give a rat's fat ass if they approve of me or not.

[ThomCat]

187. "I support all of those causes wholeheartedly"

You've never supported any of those causes here. Your support is always "I support it in theory, but in practice let me tell you why the activists are too radical and always wrong..."

If you consider that support, keep it to yourself. It helps nobody.

[noamnety]

190. I think I get it now.

It's not your fault if the only people who are "shrill" just happen to be women, right? You're just making an observation.

And not your fault if some women happen to act like "bitches." Again, you're just making an observation.

"Context matters."

*wry smile* A slur against a particular white dude offends the entire race. A slur against women offends a single woman. Because of the context.

And a person with power slurring a person based on their identity as a member of an oppressed group is identical to a person of an oppressed group slurring a person based on their identity as a person with power. Whooops, I guess context doesn't matter in that case, those are equivalent.


"What I find interesting is your assertion that those phrases mean I'm referencing a black person or minority."

Um, no, I wasn't actually asserting that. I did, however, note that the kinds of speech patterns you used for your examples aren't the way YOU normally write. Leaving me wondering if that's part of the distinction - privileged guys who talk like YOU aren't misogynistic, you'd have to be some kinda "ignorant thug" that "don't talk right" to be one of those kinds of people.

Most of us women know better. All the Queen's English in the world ain't gonna hide ugly.

[ThomCat]

192. You absolutely get it. :)

And said it better than I was going to.

Context is always a qualifier in his favor. Generalizations are only valid when he makes them. He's always right and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong, because he's "objective".

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. I Think You're Mistaken.

"It's not your fault if the only people who are "shrill" just happen to be women, right? You're just making an observation."

More contorting of my statements in a deceitfully disgraceful manner just so you can assassinate character. So pathetic. Can you point to me where I said the only shrill people are women? Oh, you can't? How sad for you. You need to learn how to focus on context. The context was one person. The person was Hillary. There have been times she's sounded shrill. Is that a lie? Oh, it isn't? Again, how sad for you. Can men sound shrill? Absolutely. But we weren't talking about a particular man who had sounded shrill, were we. If the time comes when we are, I'll have no problem saying they sounded shrill either.


"And not your fault if some women happen to act like "bitches." Again, you're just making an observation."

Why would it be my fault? It's an adjective. I'd say 99.9% of everybody, male and female alike, understand what the adjective means and how it's applied. If you want to continue to want to use my use of it, in the rare context of which I've used it, as proof I'm some sexist pig, go right ahead. But it makes you look ridiculous.



""Context matters."

*wry smile* A slur against a particular white dude offends the entire race. A slur against women offends a single woman. Because of the context."

You never cease to amaze me. I'm in awe that you can't perceive the difference of someone saying "she's acting like a bitch" as opposed to someone saying "I hate niggers" or "I hate crackers". Again, this argument makes you look ridiculous.


"And a person with power slurring a person based on their identity as a member of an oppressed group is identical to a person of an oppressed group slurring a person based on their identity as a person with power. Whooops, I guess context doesn't matter in that case, those are equivalent."

Sorry, but racism is racism. Racism is ignorant and hateful. We should be against all forms of hatred, bigotry, sexism, bias and otherwise. I'm sorry you disagree.



""What I find interesting is your assertion that those phrases mean I'm referencing a black person or minority."

Um, no, I wasn't actually asserting that. I did, however, note that the kinds of speech patterns you used for your examples aren't the way YOU normally write. Leaving me wondering if that's part of the distinction - privileged guys who talk like YOU aren't misogynistic, you'd have to be some kinda "ignorant thug" that "don't talk right" to be one of those kinds of people."

Say it all you want, but it's absolutely what you were inferring. That's why you hinted towards racism afterwards. Now that you've been caught and had the tables turned, you're trying to deflect. I also find your explanation as to why you said it to be monumentally misguided. How on earth could you take what I said to mean that only privileged guys who talk like me aren't misogynistic? Again, how twisted and deceitful in premise. The reality of the situation was that it was a distinction to grouping all women, just due to their being women, as 'bitches', using it as a noun rather than an adjective, as opposed to just saying "she's acting like a bitch". Again, I'm frankly amazed you can't grasp this simple concept.



"Most of us women know better. All the Queen's English in the world ain't gonna hide ugly."

More proof of your lack of objectivity. You and your group of fellow attacking cohorts does not constitute "Most". The fact you actually think so is the biggest sign yet as to how closed minded or non objective you can be.

[Scout]

200. "You and your group of fellow attacking cohorts"

playing the victim sweetie?

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

206. Case In Point.

Yet another attacking fool here to think they're being cool by ganging up on the BIGGGGG BADDDDDD OMCCCCCCCC.

Ya might want to think about growing up.

[Maru Kitteh]

243. Has it ever, EVER occurred to you that you just might be the ass-jack that everyone thinks you are?

Or is everyone wrong?

Perhaps only your great powers of observation, logic, and your contextual wisdom is right.

You must be the loneliest (f-expletive here) on Earth.

[bettyellen]

226. wow,the general perception of you here is so much worse than you are willing to accept

dude, open you're fucking eyes- peopl esuspect the worst. your constant hostility towards women and minorities and self righteous bullshot sets off alarms
tell me you haven;t noticed this? .

[Name removed]

232. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

240. you wasted so many words saying, in essence, "AM NOT!" My 5 yr old nephew has

better debating skills.
if you can show me anything that actually supported your statements in that post (and your say so is not supporting the statement dear- it IS the statement) well, i'd be shocked.
again. no substance, just a big dumb list of adjectives. Again.
:yawn:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

150. And Just To Show How Deceitful And Twisted One Of Your Attacks Is, And How You Warped It Just

for sake of character assassination without context, I'll paste it below. There is nothing more disgraceful then twisting someone's words and premise so that you can attack them deceitfully. It's why you and those here like you make discussion impossible and should be ashamed of yourselves.

Here's the context of your bullshit barbara bush attack, dealing with the porn industry:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=913954&mesg_id=915478

[ThomCat]

159. Yes, your context basically says,

They chose to be there, so it's okay.

And if they didn't choose to be there, but were forced there, then they should feel greatful that the porn industry is there to take advantage of them.

Right, that so disproves lwfern's point. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

164. Thanks For Proving My Point Above About Objectivity.

"but were forced there"

No where does it say anything about being 'forced' there, nor my condoning such a situation. My position is that to be in the porn industry is always an adult choice, and that's not the rest of our business.

But feel free to twist it however you want. She twisted it an even more disgraceful manner.

See, that's what you guys are about. Belittling, attacking and ganging up on posters who aren't of the same extreme mind, and trying to paint them as sexists, racists, homophobes, and god knows what else, by twisting their words and attacking them falsely as if just saying that they're these things makes them these things. That sort of method of attack is probably the LOWEST and most DISGRACEFUL type tactics employed on DU, and probably brings the discourse of this board down more than anything else.

But I don't expect you to get it. I really don't. But it's so pathetic to watch in action and is really such a sad way to engage people.

I'm done with you. There's really no point even trying to engage in discussion with people who use that type of tactic.

[noamnety]

205. Are you really done with him?

Or just in this sub-thread?

"to be in the porn industry is always an adult choice"

Yep. Making a choice to do what you need to do in order to survive (as you set up the scenario in YOUR post - being in desperate circumstances) is always an adult choice. You didn't answer my question about surviving in prison. If you needed a guy as protection in prison so you could survive, and the tradeoff was he was allowed to use you for sex, is that "an adult choice" that you made? Would you feel lucky?

Or is this another of those "context" nuances, where when it happens to women, they're lucky, and when it happens to men, it's rape?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

207. With All Due Respect, Do You Not See How Tragically Flawed That Analogy Is?

The second you show me someone in the porn industry that if they hadn't chosen to do so, would've died, I'll gladly rescind my statement that your analogy above is all sorts of ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

259. pray tell, how do you "issue a premise" ? it sounds like such fun!

[Name removed]

101. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

126. How are you equating "radical" with "hatred and sexism"?

I'm a radical feminist and hatred and sexism are not bows in my quiver.

:shrug:

[DWilliamsamh]

82. First I am sorry for your ordeal and glad you are working to help

I am truly sorry about your pain and am sure that your work to help others has the side effect of furthering your own healing from being raped.

That being said - please don't lump ALL men in with rapists. Not all men are rapist and though it is exceedingly rare not even all rapists are men. When you say things like "It is a testament to the violence of men, the undiluted disgust and hatred with which they view us," you are wrong, not all men view women that way. Not all men are violent, not all men are rapists.

Just try and keep that in mind.

Again I am very sorry that you were raped. I am exceedingly happy that you have taken the fight to those rapists who are still out there.

[noamnety]

87. Is this where I thank you for taking a stand

against sexism every time you see it on DU?
Is this where I thank you for taking a stand against violent pornography?

The reason I ask is that I see a lot of men saying they don't condone that stuff, they aren't like that, but then when it comes down to it, they seem to spend more time telling women to shut up about misogyny than they do confronting men about it when they see it.

[DWilliamsamh]

274. Sarcasm noted

I didn't ask for thanks. I asked for some recognition that all men don't fit the rapist mold.

Even in the face of your sarcasm, I will note that yes I do confront the men who DO evince Misogynist views and behavior.

Also, I don't think that pointing out that not all men are misogynists, or violent to women and/or rapists is in the least little bit the same as telling women to "shut-up" about the misogynistic men out there. I just don't think we get anywhere as a human family when one set of gross inaccurate generalizations are used to fight another set. One need not be sexist in order to fight sexism. And one need not display a general antagonism toward men to fight misogynist views.

[ThomCat]

102. Listen to lwfern.

Stop getting offended by feminism and get offended by sexism instead.

There's a hell of a lot of blatant sexism out there. I'm looking at the guys on this thread, and I'm counting how few of them I've ever seen oppose sexism on any thread.

What I usually see is backhanded criticisms of feminism by people saying "I might support feminism but..."

[DWilliamsamh]

276. I am not offended by Feminism.

I am not offended by feminism. I am a feminist. I believe that men and women should be treated equally, in all aspects of society and at home. True feminism does not teach that "all me are defective and afflicted due to their aberrant XY chromosomes." I just don't think - even in a feminist post or feminist literature - that sexist statements about men are necessary to battle sexist attitudes and statements about women (and the results thereof). Period.

You don't know me so don't assume there is anything "behind" my posts. There is no hidden agenda. I stated very clearly what my point was. That was all I was saying. If you infer more, that's on you and your prejudices.

[JacquesMolay]

83. They make other women seem reasonable.

Just a joke. Radical feminists are way hot.

[ThomCat]

103. That's not quite a joke, and it's actually a good thing.

Radicals get the issues on the table, and "reasonable moderates" then take some of those issues and get them approved.

Moderates don't succeed without radicals, and radicals don't accomplish anything without moderates.

[Lilith Velkor]

105. Egg-zackalackly! n/t

[EFerrari]

128. Because "reasonable" is just what you want to seem

when you're fighting for your life. lol

(I get the joke. :hi:)

[Dulcinea]

84. If there were no radical feminists, women would have no rights at all!

No doubt Susan B. Anthony was just as reviled in her day as Senator Hillary Clinton is now by people who are afraid of a strong, intelligent woman who goes after what she wants. And that goes for all the other so-called radical feminists who just wanted women to stand as equals.

Today's radicals are tomorrow's standard-bearers.

[Dora]

89. No pussy 'til peace.

It's something to think about.

[Lilith Velkor]

104. Fuck that

My pussy, my choice.

[Dora]

136. I hear you.

But the subject is one that has come up between me and a friend. I don't necessarily agree, but it's something to consider.... The "what if" of a sex strike... I dunno - it could have terrible consequences, or it could work, or both. Seeing how men continue to forcibly take/impose sex on women, I don't think that an abstinence for peace movement would get very far.

but it's something I think about.... like, if I were to stop making love with my husband on the condition that it will only resume when he takes action against the regime... what would happen?

But that's putting a condition on what has heretofore been an unconditional relationship. That doesn't strike me as healthy.

I don't know, and I know that the no pussy til peace idea is simplistic, but there's something in there. A nugget.

[CTyankee]

111. Time to re-read "Lysistrata" the great play by Aristophanes

written about 2,000 years ago. Aristophanes was wise enough to see that constant war is unacceptable. Though a comedy, it strikes a chord when women say "no sex" to men until they stop fighting.

[Lilith Velkor]

122. Funny how nobody ever asks men to abstain from sex for a cause

Please stop with the sexist bullshit.

[CTyankee]

146. GIven the status of women in 5th century Athens, this was about the

only power women had over men. And given the general misery that Athens had wrought in its ill fated war with Sparta, the men looked pretty stupid as well as addicted to war, and eventually dragged everyone down with them. I do not think it is sexist to point this out; it is just, well, history.

[EFerrari]

127. You beat me.

:)

[noamnety]

120. I really dislike that framing.

The reason is there's a message that can be read into it, even though it's probably not intended, that if men just do X, Y, and Z, then they will have kind of earned the right to have access to our bodies. If they do this, then they get that.

Men should fight against misogyny just because it's the ethical thing to do. And if we ever achieve equal rights and respect - and we STILL don't feel like letting them have access to our bodies, we shouldn't have to take any grief for that, and they shouldn't feel like they got a bad deal in some way. They manage to fight for everyone else's rights without feeling like that person owes them an orgasm in return.

[Dora]

139. I agree with you.

But the idea is one I like to think about.

[undergroundpanther]

273. how about one of These to make the point?

A rape victim once wished for teeth "where it mattered". Now a device has been designed to "bite" a rapist's penis. The patented device looks and is worn like a tampon, but it is hollow and attaches itself with tiny hooks to a man's penis during penetration.

In the event of rape, the device folds itself around the rapist's penis, attaching to the skin with microscopic hooks. It is only when the rapist withdraws that he will realise the device is clamped around his penis.

As it is impossible to remove the device from a penis without medical help, hospitals and clinics will be able to alert police when assistance is sought.

"This will rule out any possibility of the rapist's escaping arrest and speed up conviction."

If the rapist tries to remove the device, it will only embed itself further.

"He will have to be put under anaesthetic to have it removed. He will not be able to leave it as he will be unable to urinate."

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20050607063033640c157944



Aversive Therapy for assholes ? I Like it.
Send a billion of them to Darfur.

[ceile]

92. Very powerful.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[NotGivingUp]

108. "Beautiful girls being raped", "Sluts being beaten and raped"...these words made me want to puke. nt

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lilith Velkor]

123. Fuckin A.

:headbang:

[Raksha]

130. THANK YOU, Evoman!

Fact is, I've never been raped. Hell, I've never even felt in danger of it. I've never been aggressively cat-called, been taken advantage of when I was drunk, or had a pill put into my drink. I've never had to be careful picking out my clothes for fear that I might be in danger of being violated. Oh yeah...and I've never been called a slut, or had acid thrown in my face because I talked to the wrong guy.

And I would say about 95 percent or higher of the men here would say the damn same thing.

So excuse me if I feel your an asshole when someone brings up feminism or a rape case and you say nothing in support of that person. Excuse me if feel your an asshole because your first impulse is to defend the gender who causes literally 99 percent of the fucking violence in this world.

Are there any more at home like you? :yourock:

[Forkboy]

133. Best post in the thread!

:thumbsup:

[ThomCat]

134. I hope every guy on this thread reads your post, repeatedly.

:applause:

"So excuse me if I feel your an asshole when someone brings up feminism or a rape case and you say nothing in support of that person. Excuse me if feel your an asshole because your first impulse is to defend the gender who causes literally 99 percent of the fucking violence in this world. Yeah, you never did anything. Good, nobody thinks you did."

A number of people really, truly need to read that.

[Dora]

138. Three cheers for EVOMAN! n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

142. Thank you, Evoman.

:hug:

[Scout]

162. Bravo! Bravissimo!! n/t

[undergroundpanther]

219. Your post made me tear up

Thank you.

[kalibex]

234. Amen again. nt

[NashVegas]

140. Certainly, Victim-Advocacy Is One Aspect of Feminism, But It's Not the Whole

There is so much more to feminism - promoting womens' interests - than fighting misogyny.

We need subversive feminists: those who would promote equal respect to the sexes in ways that misogynists wouldn't even recognize what was going on.

[shance]

143. I think we also need male radical feminists too, as long is one is vulnerable, everyone is.

n/t

[ThomCat]

145. There already are.

:hi:

[AllieB]

165. I'm always saddened when I see so many angry, sexist responses

here at DU. I can only imagine that some of these people are visitors from other websites (ahem) or have serious emotional and psychological problems that they haven't resolved. Women are the victims of sexism nearly on a daily basis. People that equate getting mugged to getting raped are in serious denial. I guess I'm lucky that I have a 'radical feminist' husband and father.

[ThomCat]

180. I'm always saddened when so many of those angry sexist people

insist that they're the reasonable, objective, rational ones. I take heave meds, and I'm constantly wondering what drugs THEY are taking.

Never underestimate the power of some people to rationalize their belief that they're always right.

[RandomKoolzip]

172. I get the feeling that lots of men on DU equate "radical feminism"

with either "castration" or "enforced celibacy."

:hmm:

[ThomCat]

181. Or lesbians who won't sleep with them.

:P

[RandomKoolzip]

182. Yeah...

"Oh no! Somebody take my sexy time away! What me do now?!"

:scared:

[bettyellen]

228. and straight women who also won't sleep with them......

so they want to belive they're radical instead of having taste and good sense.

[ThomCat]

230. Very true.

How many times have I seen a guy get rejected and then tell the other guys there that she's a bitch or a dyke. Straight women are are judged on how pretty and available they are.

[bettyellen]

231. just like some assholes here- they are stunned not to be treateted as god's gift for just existing.

and they'll never see the hostility or sense of entitlement that offends everyone else.
ick.

[kineneb]

244. if they are that desperate,

there are always the ...sheep...!
:evilgrin:

seriously, sexual abuse is not about sex, it is about power... where some guy thinks he can build himself up by abusing and tearing down someone else... and the "logical" target are those whom he considers to be a lesser being... usually a female (since in all but a few cultures, females are considered to be of less worth than males).

[ismnotwasm]

198. Radical feminist here, by accident

I thought I was a nice regular liberal feminist. And then I found the criteria had changed. Or maybe it was always there. No giving in, and no going back. You rock!:yourock:

[cally]

202. Thank you!!

You are wonderfully eloquent and so correct. I admit that I was afraid to read this thread. I thought it would turn into a hate fest against women like too many others on the blogs have. Instead, your eloquence and passion (and others on this thread) have encouraged a discussion. :applause:

[undergroundpanther]

215. A word of inspiration for the Radicals here.

Mark my words about the assholes here,

Those who strut in arrogance twisting words.. I know you are afraid,of us radicals. Scared of losing control,scared of your own insignificance,scared of being reduced to an animal as if ANY OF US were EVER anything else but animals, Blessed Creative Animals...


Radical feminists will take the empire of power over down and stomp it to dust.We will dance over it's demise..WE will be free,of YOU and yes some of us who know the corruption at the heart of patriarchy, are aware on the way,to freedom we may have to offend alot of Unreasonable people playing as if they were so fucking reasonable and appropriate.

We know what lies inside your motives and we know it is a terrible vulnerability you hide,a terrible crime and we will drag it out of you,SAY IT and expose it to everyone.

And we will take the shame you put on us,and we will FORCE it back into YOU,after all YOU are it's rightful owner and creator..

We may have to crack alot of heads or shatter this world into pieces to tell truth to "power"..But we both know there is only so much abuse one can suffer before one says NO MORE and fights back too.We are not passive suffering servants and sheep deep inside. This apathy and learned helplessness will not contain or control the fire within us forever.

"Spiritual violence is most dangerous when it is most spiritual --that is least emotional. Violence which acts in the depths of the will without any surface upheaval carries our whole being into captivity with no apparent struggle. Such is the violence of deliberate and unresisted sin which seems to be not violence but peace".
Thomas Merton

Radical feminists,Anarchists,All Liberators and defenders of of diversity ,All you Ultracultural Wild things, Rise up,challengers of the way things always are.Waving the blackness and roaring like a tornado bearuing down on the whited sepulchers of domination,convention,'family values'
and rotting useless tradition...

Do not negotiate your fire away, do not compromise your needs, yourself, your hearts desire with psychopaths and dominators,who do not care for anything but your obedience,silence and surrender. Don't swallow the old lies and beliefs to 'get along' or get by anymore,no matter how 'reasonable' they appear. BEWARE!

Because the people who would silence us or demean us and twist our words are NOT reasonable at all,they are cowardly, velvet gloved abusers of our love,our bodies, our minds,trust ,power,freedom, and personhood...They desire to rob us of our self actualization, and sanity.They want to put out the fires in our bellies because they know thier time of power over us is ending.


"We will no longer attempt to prove how reasonable we can be.
We will go before them, face to face, to fight for our freedom.
We will not be held hostage to their administrative efficiency.
We will not keep to our place. We will never again be put away.
We are freedom fighters now. And this is war."
-- Mouth Magazine

Chovexani ThomCat and to the many others here who dare call themselves RAdical Feminists IN PRIDE and SOLIDARITY My Sisters and Brothers and Transkin and OTHERKIN, YOU THAT have the courage to GET IT, WE will Take Tommorrow for Tommorrow belongs to US.

Together like a billion drops of acid rain,we will weardown thus hegemony,Like a rushing wave we will knock the owner off the box he holds the world inside hoarding it, Like thunder overhead we will break apart this cultural cage built for supporting the big lie of authoritarianism.Drown all the rationalizations and put downs rules and lies and the voices of fear and contempt..The system will be crashed,it will evaporate in the fire of our collective will focused on the cause of our oppression,and I know it cannot stand for it's foundation is FEAR.

We will shatter all status quo that binds us all down in this patriarchy and sameness and trauma of conformity.And there is nothing the so called"elites"who think they own us and think they are "masters" can DO about the spirit driving us home.NOTHING..

All we need to do now is just decide,Will we will quit playing thier game by thier rules ,quit trying to look reasonable to the unreasonable,and say no more of this patriarchal game? Will we just be what we are and say fuck em if they are scared of freedom it's not OUR fault?
If you think this is so,we must act on that decision in real life.

Demonstrate our rightous anger and show our wounds and OUR power and hearts desire,to the deluded and the bullies.The Domination system is the enemy of life peace and love..It hates sharing power and freedom..I wants ONLY to have freedom to dominate to abuse,silence,or control us!!


We must fight yes bit also we must BE THERE for each other Step up to defend each other in any way that STOPS the ABUSE and ENDS the GAME.
We must tell our stories bear our souls without fear,and shout down the bullies,and humiliate the assholes,take away those dick privleges,with a big stick,by force if needed, Speak fearlessly, and let the abusers of power know we will not be playing by their rules anymore.

We are all in this TOGETHER.Be it on DU or on the street, we must inspire motivate and give others a taste of hope,or our fist with skillful means.NO MORE TOLERANCE FOR THE INTOLERABLE! No more excuses for the inexcusable, no more kindness to the cruel.

When every survivor has gotten a taste of freedom from domination, My hope is they will find the courage and accept thier anger will rise. I hope every survivor gains the confidence to revolt from the cage through the power of experince emerging an angry lion a venomous snake,a phoenix of fire, to sever every abuser from the source of control, bythe blood covered sword of herstory ,the sword of pain she was forced to swallow,made of her blood her tears her pain,and destroy domination;s fortresses within.With her anger run the lie called patriarchy through with her anguish, until it dies in shame.

And A life with no more self declared lords,or masters telling us how to be,abusing and using our own inner locus of control,We will find our POWER again,And take it BACK from you, we will use freedom and power with responsibility like YOU never could.. ..we will be able to heal the world with this power of our stories. There will be peace,equality,and power for all,our voices will not be silenced, we will rule ourselves ,each a sovereign kingdom of 1,and we will be free together. Each precious as individuals still unique while also united as one, force..A force of endless faces minds and songs..We are made of Indescribable endless diversity and creativity and solidarity we are everything we are.. Moving in pride, solidarity, Love and POWER.
Ta'Maat Sekhmet! Sa Sekem Sahu!!

[donsu]

247. true

nt

[w8liftinglady]

223. Doonesbury has done a great job of covering female sexual harrassment in the military

[Retired AF Dem]

248. A warrior is not a victim

"You cant rape a .38" But as we all know most feminist orgs are anti-gun. They must like the victim mentality.

[ThomCat]

249. Guns can be taken away by someone who is stronger than you

and acting with the advantage of surpise. And then, not only are you facing someone who is willing to rape you, you've just handed him a gun.

Gun nuts think that guns solve everything. x(

[Retired AF Dem]

255. And people that support disparity of force

condones massacres? Just wondering.

[ThomCat]

257. You're living in a faerie tale.

You obviously have a fantasy that just owning a gun makes you safe, that the right person will always be able to get to the gun and use it, and the bad guy will stand there and let them. :eyes:

In the real world, you have situations where one person is vicious and violent, and the other person is being attacked. You want to toss a gun into the mix and you somehow except that the vicious and violent person isn't going to get it and use it.

You're asking for a whole lot more people to end up dead.

[Retired AF Dem]

263. DU has a great spell checker

I suggest you use it. Lets see, 20 years military LE, 10 years civilian LE, currently carrying the big bucks for Loomis, aka Loomis Fargo, aka, Wells Fargo. I live in the real world when it comes to gun experience. You my friend live in fantasyland created by the likes of the regug Sarah Brady.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

267. Question:

Is this the same "real world" in which Sarah Brady, Diane Feinstein, Ted Kennedy, and Hillary Clinton, will one day swoop down in black helicopters and "grab" guns from all the hyper paranoid white men in this nation's backwaters? Sorry, I'm a little nostalgic for all that 90's NRA fear and paranoia.

I wouldn't want to live in your world for all the tea in China.

drking81,
Vice President of Fantasyland.

[Retired AF Dem]

268. That could come true

But I doubt if the persons you listed above would have the fortitude to do it themselves.

[undergroundpanther]

271. Guns are not always the decider

My mom and I had gone back to my fathers house, we had left him because he was an asshole.We had moved into an apartment.,She had to get him to sign tax papers to keep the house.

I walked in first and sat on the couch .She walked after me in with the form and the pen and asked my crazy alcholic father to sign it.
I didn't see it when I walked in but he had a gun stashed under the chair.
He jumped up suddenly put the gun against my moms forehead as he grabbed her throat.I was shocked.He was screaming at her"you killed me" and she was croaking for me to get out of the house as he squeezed her throat.It was all in slow motion it seemed,than I saw him draw the hammer back, to actually kill her,and the shock wore off .I leapt over the coffee table and slammed my body into his, he stumbled the gun fell out of his hand, and flew across the floor and it went off somewhere in the hallway. Mom and I split the house She out the back door I out the front door. We got in her car. She crammed my head down under the dashboard as she backed out of there, as he was shooting at the car. This happened when I was 13 or 14 years old.

Sometimes Any action is enough to mess up an attack even with a gun.

[undergroundpanther]

270. I think

grabbing a rapists penis and ripping it off his body is best defense. The asshole has to unzip and expose it, why not grab it and tear it out by the roots. And that way he will be paying the price that counts the most,and he might not try that shit again,he might not be ABLE to.

Fight dirty.Fuck playing nice. Kill him, maim him, Who cares about a rapist pig they deserve to die.Bite faces, grab HIS gun, or Grab YOUR gun back.Put your thumbs right under his eyes on the lower lids and pop his eyeballs.Kick him in the knee, run the side of your shoe down his shinbone and stomp the arch.Punch him right behind the ear, Box the ears HARD(it can shatter his eardrums),punch him in the throat right near the adams apple, Hit it as hard as you can with your fingers locked together hand going forward Or you can do it like a karate chop..All those moves hurt like hell and some can kill an attacker, the throat chop is one . Once you start, don't stop attacking keep moving become the aggressor to the rapist. Look the asshole in the eye and DO NOT EVER lower your eyes. If you act like you are not scared , and you go bat shit on him that will be threatening .

I have fought alot of assholes in my days and when YOU out aggressive them in a crazy vicious wild explosion of screaming growling ,biting fury and rage they are more likely to run than try to contain you with all that noise and motion they will begin to worry someone will intervene too...

[undergroundpanther]

269. I don't think its victim mentality

More like Stockholm syndrome.
When you are "captive" to an abuser as in trapped in marriage with kids and no job, Doesn't matter if they CAN leave they might not BELIEVE that they can leave so basically they are captives.. In a captive situation,you may begin to bond with the abuser in ways like THIS


Psychodynamics' Underlying Stockholm Syndrome

An abuser traumatizes a victim (who does not believe they can escape, or truly can not) with a threat to the victim's survival. The traumatized victim, who perceives isolation from outsiders; who could provide nurturance and protection, must look to the abuser to meet those needs. If the abuser shows the victim some small kindness, the victim then must bond to the perceived positive side of the abuser, denying (or dissociating) the side of the abuser that produced the terror. The victim begins to work to see the world from the abuser's perspective so that they may know what keeps the abuser happy, thus helping to insure the victim's survival. As a result the victim becomes hypervigilant to the abuser's needs and unaware of their own. The victim comes to see the world from the perspective of the abuser, losing touch with their own perspective, which is unimportant or even counter-productive to their survival
http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/trauma/stockhol.htm

There was a rather sadistic experiment I read about I think it was in psychology today or Scientific American a few years ago..I don't remember which magazine now..It was about what happens to rats when they were shocked in cages and could not escape the shock.The cages were rigged up with shock grids on the cage bottoms..The rats got zapped and they'd jump and land back on the electrified cage bottom. Over and over.Soon they realized jumping did not stop the current from hurting them soon they gave up and laid on the cage bottom and one researcher said it looked like clinical depression,The rat just laid there no matter how much juice ran through them.
Next these sadists doing this experiment opened the cage door,and zapped the rats again. They did not run, they did not move even though the cage door was wide open. They laid there Why do you think that was? Because they believed they could not escape..

Abuse and no exit..That helps create learned helplessness,the same helplessness and identifying with the abuser beliefs that get locked into ones head takes years to get over,that combination of beliefs and experiences I think is what gets feminists to think guns are bad..for the movement..