Michael Vick case... I read the indictment.... Devil's Advocate Time

[ShaneGR]

Now, before I start, let me make something clear. I'm an animal lover. I own a beautiful 7 year old mut of Yellow Lab/Dalmation/Pit Bull Terrier decent. I do not condone animal abuse, dog fighting, etc.

I do however believe that in our country people are innocent until proven guilty without any doubt.

So lets get started. I read the whole indictment and some things stand out to me.

#1: Michael Vick may have purchased the property involved in the case, but he never resided there. The indictment actually states four defendents, Vick listed last, and the most serious charge (or outrageous) of the "execution" of dogs, as the indictment says, points to the people living there and not Michael Vick.

#2: All of the evidence listed in the indictment comes from cooperating witnesses. They are not listed by name, simply given the designation "CW #1, CW # 2, etc." All of the cooperating witnesses, as the indictment says, were either previously or currently involved in dog fight training, selling, fighting, and the gambling that comes with it. It is unclear at this point exactly who these people are. It is doubtful that the state got them to cooperate out of the goodness of their heart. It is likely they were already in trouble with the government and decided to cut a deal with the government in exchange for light sentencing or a drop of their current charges. This raises serious questions as to the validity of these cooperating witnesses statements. Most people will say anything about anyone if it means getting out of trouble or out of jail.

#3: Fifty four dogs were recovered from the property, many displaying visible scars as the Government says. But despite the Governments claims of multiple dog executions, no remains were found at the site after extensive digging. None of the dogs seized from the property required euthenization due to ill health as is common in most of these raids.

#4: There is no video or picture evidence of Vick attending any of the fights listed in the indictment. Just the "cooperating withnesses" discussed above.

So, before we all rush off to "string him up by his nuts" or "throw him in a gladiator ring to the death" we might want to remember that just because the government says it, doesn't mean it's true. That's for a jury to decide.

[Mythsaje]

1. I've spent years in canine rescue...

But I'll leave it to the courts to determine his guilt or innocence, and continue pressing for more severe penalties for this crap.

[jgraz]

5. Yes, the penalties for this stuff are outrageously light

He'll probably end up doing more time for the illegal gambling than for the dog torture.

Anyone who tortures an animal is as much of a monster as someone who tortures a person. They're both psychopaths who are immune to the suffering of others. Once the penalties start approaching those for crimes with human victims, these scumbags might think twice about indulging in these horrific hobbies.

[ShaneGR]

9. Correct, the state commerce charge is the more serious...

Incidentally, Robert Kennedy created that law in the 60s to fight mafia gambling interests. Just a little historical background. It's used a lot now and usually results in plea deal arrangements.

[jgraz]

Agreed, but if he's convicted...

it's off to the gladiator ring with him! (who thought that one up? :shrug:)

[ShaneGR]

4. Just one of the threads earlier...

There was another one where they said "string him up" which reminded me of lynchings.

[jgraz]

6. There's really no punishment that can make up for what he's done

Just keep him off the street and away from normal humans for the rest of his life.

[asthmaticeog]

2. Thank you for the sanity.

You're gonna get flamed from all directions by punishment fetishists. Long may you endure.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Punishment fetishists!

That's just about fucking perfect!

:thumbsup:

[hiaasenrocks]

3. Agreed. We'll see what the jury says. Let's remember all the calls for

similar retribution against the Duke LAX players.

I haven't done a lot of research on the Vick case. Thanks for your hard work.

[Kingshakabobo]

7. I thought they found several sets of dog remains?

:shrug:

[ShaneGR]

10. It's not in the indictment if they did....

And its not in any of the news stories, at least the ones I read.

[Kingshakabobo]

11. Here..

On June 7, officials with the Department of Agriculture, with help from state police, executed their own search warrant and found the remains of seven dogs.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-07-18-vick-local-charges_N.htm

[Arkansas Granny]

8. I'll go along with that. If this results in a conviction, however, I hope

he receives the harshest punishment possible. Animal cruelty is a despicable crime, IMO.

For those who have not read the indictment, it can be found at this link:

http://www.wvec.com/news/downloads/Vick_Indictment.pdf

[earthlover]

13. So...is Bush innocent until proven guilty?

If you are gonna play devil's advocate, I raise you a devil!

[WilliamPitt]

14. Yes.

If we start cutting down the basic processes of justice, we become him.

You don't defeat evil with more evil. I think Gandhi said something about that.

[RavensChick]

29. n/t

I'll see your devil and raise you a demon. There's no way in the world Dubya can talk his way outta this one. Besides, the more he talks, the worse it gets.

Please let there be an impeachment in the future 'cause I can't take much more of this.

[belladonna]

15. One word for you

RICO???

[Middle finga]

16. And while we're on the subject of Mike Vick I also have compassion

in my heart for animals, but the selective outrage is deafening to me. This is the same country that allows hunters to go out kill animals for sport to satisfy some blood lust that they have. I can see hunting to put food on the table but hunting for sport? I'm not going to even get into the torture tactics we use against PEOPLE of middle eastern descent or the gulags our government operates around the world that we seemed to have accepted as normal. If this story makes it around the world over our outrage of a sport star torturing animals but are silent over our governments brutal invasion, killing, torturing and maiming of hundreds of thousand mostly innocent people, the rest of the world will finally come to the conclusion as a whole we are truly one sick nation.

[Sanctified]

17. Hunting is not just for sport or putting food on the table.

It's also used for population control, the number of licenses issued is based upon the population of the herds to prevent the herds from starving due to lack of food in the winter. In a lot of areas the natural predators of Deer and Elk have been totally eradicated thus there is no natural way to thin the herds.

[Middle finga]

24. I wonder how Europe handle their animal population problems

do they also turn their gun nuts loose in the wild or do they just let nature take it's course? Just wondering

[Sanctified]

26. You do realize your statement makes no sense since hunting is legal in Europe.

[Pavulon]

19. A rifle bullet is pure compassion

compared to an animal being mauled to death or taking days to die of infection. Also one is legal and the other is not, and for pretty obvious reasons.

[Middle finga]

25. All hunters don't have a one shot kill ratio. Some animals are maimed

and manages to escape and end up suffering to death that's not compassion

[Sanctified]

28. The number of animals maimed every year

is not even a blip on the map when compared to the numbers that starve to death, and if a heard starves then they have eaten all the vegetation that was available which can permanently remove such food sources from the area making it totally inhabitable for years. We are not just talking about animals, we are talking about permanently changing a forest, these animals could forage local plant species out of existence.

[Pavulon]

18. He admitted on the air, was all cute about it on cnn

so he owned up to it. More than one corroborating witness, that is pretty solid. His underlings rolled on him, enron style.

He can get his jury trial but his comments on tv make sure he is done in the NFL and will be a washed piece of shit in 4 years.

What goes around comes around.

[Neshanic]

21. Is that not amazing that people donot know that he basically admitted to it?

and his friends confirmed it?

HELLO!

[ShaneGR]

33. Actually, you have him confused with Clinton Portis, Redskins RB

Portis and another Redskins player were interviewed and said dog fighting was no big deal.

But they're both black, easy to mix it up. :-)

[pitohui]

20. "a jury to decide"

i don't trust juries when a prosecutor is out to make a name, but this is because my neighbors were prosecuted for child murder for a murder that never happened and the prosecutor invented similar outrageous stories

i've never really believed any of the wilder abuse tales again, unless there was physical evidence

i mean...if it was something THIS BAD there would BE physical evidence

i don't even trust a jury, my neighbors were convicted by a jury trial but i know for a fact that what the jury thinks happened, it did not happen


the innocence project isn't finding hundreds of people who were falsely convicted of rape or murder because juries are so great

our system sucks, it's broken, we need to fix it, with or without michael vick

how many years have gary tyler or leonard peltier been in prison, they had fucking juries

[jpgray]

23. Anecdotal experience continues to put reason in the corner, I see

If you knew for a fact it didn't happen, why weren't you up on the witness stand?

[jpgray]

22. Which all show the advantages of waiting until -after- the trial to pass judgment.

[JacquesMolay]

27. Same problem Michael vick has on the field.

Given the opportunity, he doesn't know when to pass.

[RavensChick]

30. That is so true

but this is his own doing. Somewhere in his mind he knew something wasn't right about this so-called "hobby". It's illegal, immoral, and dangerous. These dogs did nothing wrong and yet they paid the ultimate price for someone's profit margin. Michael can't possibly talk his way outta this shit by denying it.

[DefenseLawyer]

31. 5K1

It seems funny to me that many of the same people who have called Alberto Gonzales a buffoon on these pages suddenly think the justice department can do no wrong when it comes to these allegations. The fact is the federal system is built on 5K1 proffered testimony; it is built around informants. It starts with the extremely harsh sentences imposed by the sentencing guidelines and the statutory mandatory minimum sentences in place for many federal crimes. The federal rules then provide (in section 5K1 of the guidelines) the the ONLY WAY for a person to get sentence below the statutory mandatory minimum is to provide "substantial assistance to the government" i.e. become a witness for the government. That is not to say that every informant is lying, only that there is tremendous pressure to "flip" in these cases. One has to look at any indictment based on informant testimony through that prism. It really is important to wait until the evidence is presented in a trial, rather than taking the word of a criminal who is playing perhaps the only chip he has to play in implicating Vick.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. I agree we all have to wait for the facts -- people do get wrongly accused all the time

While hoping that stiffer criminal penalties are made for this monstrous crime.

[RavensChick]

34. I hope so too

but when someone who is so high profile finds himself in something he may be innocent in is jammed up in such a horrible and dangerous activity, the court of public opinion has already made a conviction before formal charges are brought (if any). Like I said, he can't talk his way out of this no matter how many charges are leveled against him. It's gotten so bad for athletes they can't even pick their nose unless the whole world finds out about it. It's even worse for young people who look up to Michael as some kind of a role model. Endorsements? Nike already announced they're suspending his new line of shoes until this matter is resolved. Time will tell how this will play out.