Give me a break!

[Mythsaje]

For a place where entirely too many people are down on mysticism and spirituality, I think we're FAR too tolerant of paranoid fantasies.

"Bush is going to declare martial law and suspend the next election!"

Are you fucking kidding? Okay, these people are nuts, but that's BEYOND nuts.

"They're going to MIHOP a nuke attack somewhere on American soil to make it happen!"

Okay, I realize that these bastards are pretty fucking evil. No shit. But they DON'T work for themselves. They work for the corporate PTBs and though they've signed on to some of the neocon agenda, this kind of crap is MOST DEFINITELY not what they signed up for. Weird crap like this is simply bad for business. And that's the bottom line here, folks. What's good for business.

That's why the corporations are so heavily invested in shutting John Edwards up. HE'S not good for business. At least not the way things are run right now. Marginalizing him fast is the smart thing to do. He's the most dangerous of all the candidates to the status quo.

I mean, when was the last time anyone questioned how much Hillary's haircut cost? She's the centrist candidate, but still pro-corporate for the most part. At least, that's the game she's playing. Whether she'd be so pro-corporate given more latitude than her husband was, well, that's a matter of some debate.

The fact is that what they're probably about is shifting blame and responsibility around to the point that the American people never realize that most of it lies squarely on the shoulders of the Republican party AS A WHOLE. They'll gladly throw Bush and Cheney under the bus and run over both of them a couple of times and go on their merry way.

They're trying to keep impeachment off the table because they're afraid that things they'd rather not come to light MAY come to light. That's it. Business doesn't want the U.S. to turn into a dictatorship. BUSH and Cheney might want that. Even some of the neo-cons might want that. But pro-corporate Republicans and Democrats (and, yeah, they're in the loop too) certainly DON'T want that.

I think we sometimes get so caught up in everything we forget that PNAC and the neocons aren't really in charge. They're being LOANED power, but they don't hold all the cards. Had their overseas ventures proven successful, they would've been in position to maintain their status for a while longer, but now? The only ones they've really profited have been the war profiteers and the oil companies who, while powerful, hardly compose the whole of the corporate sector.

I think at this point the PTBs are pretty sick of Bush/Cheney and their inability to accomplish anything worthwhile out of this mess. They sold a bill of goods and weren't able to back it up with results, and corporate America HATES that kind of shit. Now they're coming to the conclusion they were conned and the end result of that isn't going to be pretty.

So, no, I don't think they're going to set off a nuke in the U.S. and use it to declare martial law. The best Bush can hope for is for them to manage to cover his escape into obscurity after the next election.

I know there are those here who believe otherwise, but I'm telling you, the whole trick at this point is going to be obfuscation and misdirection. If they can, they'll do their best to prevent ANYONE from being sacrificed at the altar of public anger. But, if they can't, they'll throw Bush to the wolves in less time than it takes to post a single sentence response here on DU.

They're going to want a smooth transition of power, preferably to someone who knows how to play ball. Because of the whole debacle initiated by the PNAC players and the neo-con fumblers, they may have to end up making concessions to the populists in the end, but it just may be that the corporate PTBs are realizing universal single-payer healthcare will be, in the end, to their advantage. Oh, the insurance companies won't like it, but just about every other corporation in America could gain from it.

And it'll make the liberals happy. Lull them into sleep after a while. If they can do that, and perhaps shut up the fundies long enough to give us gay marriage (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), we'll sink back into complacency until the NEXT time some group of adventurers gain the influence to start all this all over again.

And THAT, my friends, is the way the game is played.

Mark my words.

[jaysunb]

1. Your words are marked...

also, kicked and recommended. :thumbsup:

[Richard Steele]

2. Consider your words marked, my friend. nm

[Swamp Rat]

3. "Business doesn't want the U.S. to turn into a dictatorship?"

Really?



It can't happen here?

[Mythsaje]

4. It could.

I just don't think it will.

Not overtly, anyway. Why screw with a tactic that's already working for one that might cause more trouble than it's worth?

[Swamp Rat]

5. So, more like a United States of Dystopia.

A kinder, gentler form of fascism.



Woe to those not deemed "citizens."

[Mythsaje]

6. I think that's more the plan, long range

than letting this band of nitwits gain Ultimate Cosmic Power.

A sleepy, complacent public is far easier to control through manipulation than an awake, aware, and pissed off public.

[Richard Steele]

16. Feudalism, but with "fast food" and iPods. nm

[Swamp Rat]

18. Exactly!!

[MatrixEscape]

11. If Fascism

is the merger of business, (corporations) and state, then any minor setbacks of Martial law could be declared a loss to be recouped in the aftermath. So, I don't think that you can rule out the false-flag event and ML so easily.

We have precedences for this scenario, (did you forget Hitler already?) along with the stage being set by the Patriot Act and the Emergency Powers Act. There is much that certainly point in that direction. Add the push to go for Iran next, and you see a pattern.

War is has always been BIG money for BIG business. It also has the benefit of eating-up surplus production and goods.

Maybe read some Orwell ... ahhh, 1984? Do so with understanding that, though it may be a fictional work, it is based on Orwell's observations and understandings of similar events in his time, as you may already know.

I think it is far better to get this out on the table and out in the open before it happens. Because, once it does happen, there is no table anymore. One would hope that the deniers are correct.

Some documented false-flag terrorism:
http://deeperpolitics.gnn.tv/blogs/7329/Examples_of_documented_False_Flag_Terrorism

Paul Craig Roberts, (Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration)
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts07162007.html

[Mythsaje]

14. It's purely short-term gain...

And little enough at that.

An overt power grab in this country would be dangerous in the long term because the people here, while complacent when comfortable, have a LONG history of fucking up the plans of those who push them too far.

They can't control the insurgency in Iraq...what makes you think they could control one here? Especially with the majority of our troops elsewhere?

[Amonester]

27. They could control one here... easily.

Because they R not the ones who do the "fighting" and because it's not they who "physically" oppress the "poor" people in the streets. They just sign the bills using the taxpayers' credit card, while hiding behind hordes of "special agents" or deep inside their un-penetrable bunkers.

In short, methinks: They Don't Care (of course, I truly hope to be proven wrong, but absolutely nothing has been, and is, "as usual" with this bunch of war criminals for greed, so what could make me expect that they would "magically" become "as usual" anytime in the future?).

[Mythsaje]

You're kidding, right?

I could make a high explosive or respiratory agent in a matter of minutes with what I have in my house, much less what I could get from the local convenience or grocery store. Americans may seem complacent now, but given the right circumstances, they'd be tougher to deal with than the Iraqis ever HOPED to be.

You think it's bad knowing who's the "bad guy" when everybody else comes in shades of brown? How about when the "bad guy" can look just LIKE you? And SOUND just like you?

They'd underestimate Americans at their peril. Sure, plenty of them would go along to get along, but there's nearly 300,000,000 of us. And over half of us are ALREADY pissed off to some extent or another.

[Amonester]

31. Don't misunderstand me. I truly hope you will be proven right,

and I will be proven wrong.

I have learned how not to give these bastards any appeasing sentiment in the form of "don't worry, they will never risk anything like that" and then what, they will gladly continue to rip the U.S. apart and drag her down, without any fear of any true "personal" consequence afterwards.

Your perspective is valid, and I hope mine is not.

[Mythsaje]

33. Don't worry...

I'm watching as closely as anyone else.

I like to think they're not that crazy, because I DO think it would be an insane move on their part. Shutting down the internet would be a good move on their part, but it would simply provoke some of us into hooking up our printers and posting handbills instead. At no time in the past has just about everyone had access to their own printing presses.

Nor has there ever been a society as heavily armed as segments of our society are. There are people who have been anticipating and preparing for that sort of thing for a LONG time. I'd much rather THEY be proved wrong than me.

;)

[BlackHawk706867]

7. Your saying it probably won't happen... But what if? If there are the..

normal elections next year (Nov 2008) and a Democrat becomes President with a wide majority as is predicted! The current President and Vice President (it would seem to me) would be in their sites to stand trial for many crimes! So what say you on this? They had better not pardon them! The American people and the people of the world would be outraged..... So, how do they deal with this?

ww

[Mythsaje]

9. I think we'll see a LOT of scheming and NOT see a lot

of backroom deals to keep things on an even keel. It'll be the Iran/Contra crap all over again.

Not that I WANT it to happen that way, but I'm pretty sure they'll work out a way to make it happen. If it doesn't seem possible, they'll find a way to crucify Bush and leave everyone else out of it if they can.

That's one of the reasons I want them to pursue impeachment NOW, though I'm afraid the fix is in. I think far too many of our Democratic "representatives" are bought and paid for.

[Stand and Fight]

37. Amen to that...

I do have fear of that last point -- that too many of our guys, the Democrats, have been comprised (by money or blackmail) into staying silent... If that is the case, I do feel that the Nation has lost its soul, and if that is the case the coup is over and we're in a concentration camp of the mind.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

40. No they wouldn't.

The next administration is not going to go after Bush. He'll retire from politics and go to work for one of his dad's companies most likely.

[Mythsaje]

42. That's pretty much what I think too...

Unless they absolutely have to sacrifice him for the "greater good."

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. On this point

"Bush is going to declare martial law and suspend the next election!"

I think there's too many crazy people with guns in this country and not enough military left for something like that to take place. There are hordes of people out there waiting for just such an opportunity. For those who doubt me go to a rural gun show just once and I promise you'll change your mind. :scared:

Oh, and in my opinion you're correct on the obfuscation and misdirection being the name of the new game. Republican ideologues are smart enough to know the value of living to fight another day.

Edited to add: Recommended. I love the way you force words into doing your bidding. A skill I was born devoid of, but never-the-less admire.

[Mythsaje]

10. Yep...

I'm not sure a lot of the militia and survivalist types would be any happier with Bush seizing the reins as they would have been with a Democrat. Some of these people are stark raving bonkers and well-armed besides.

And a lot of lefties would step aside and let them charge right into battle without a word.

As I said, they'd have to be BEYOND nuts to pull that.

Better to let things mellow out and see where they are in ten years or so.

On edit: Words are wimpy little things in the end. You just gotta smack 'em around and show 'em who's boss.

:)

[Marr]

12. If business doesn't want a dictatorship, and the Bush team simply works for big business...

then why have they been pushing a far-right authoritarian interpretation of the Constitution for 7 years? Where's Habeas Corpus? Why the illegal wiretaps? What's the reason for Bush's recent executive order declaring his new power to seize the assets of anyone who "undermines" his Iraq fantasy? Why the torture? What happened to Posse Comitatus? And a hundred other things. Clearly, at least one of your assumptions is incorrect.

Similarly, why would the GOP walk off a cliff with an unpopular administration rather than distance itself and salvage their electability? Why hand off the White House to the opposition party- especially when you've just spent 8 years granting and declaring unprecedented powers for that branch?

The things you're scoffing at may or may not happen, but scoffing at the prospect when so many questionable signs are present is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

I think the Bush Administration is full of far right ideologues that have served big business the way Hitler did. They've done it because it's was a prerequisite to gaining power. Once that power is achieved, the servant can quickly become the master. Have they achieved that power, and will they take that final plunge, as Hitler did? I guess we'll see. But it's hard to deny that we're standing on the diving board.

[Mythsaje]

15. They've gone rogue...

Doesn't mean the PTBs have signed on to all they're trying to pull.

I think it would be dangerous to the extreme for them to do this, and the minute it became apparent how far they'd go, their corporate sponsors will pull the plug and feed them to the villagers with their pitchforks and torches.

And why they allowed them to get away with all the rest? Because it helps THEIR cause in the long term. They want control, they just don't want it to be overt. Overt is dangerous. It can backfire. Covert control, using information as a weapon, is more secure. Keep the populace complacent and comfortable, control what they see and hear, and monitor what they say to one another, and they can shape public opinion quite easily.

And keep contingencies open.

[Marr]

17. I doubt that big business would pull the plug.

You're talking about very wealthy people. In a dictatorial regime, they could be rendered penniless on a whim. I think they'd go along and try not to make waves, as the German business community did. They'd try to hold onto that tiger's tale.

[Mythsaje]

19. This ISN'T 1930s Germany...

It's not a very good comparison, really. Most of the corporations are multi-national, and it's in their best interests to have a thriving United States as a consumer market for whatever crap they can produce overseas.

Allowing for some nutball to declare himself the Emperor of America or some such would most likely sooner or later spark a civil war that would be BAD, BAD, BAD for business. And make no mistake, even if the majority just curled up and did nothing, there would be a sizeable minority that wouldn't. And even more people who'd deliberately look the other way and pretend not to know who blew up that police station or staged that prison break.

As Thom Hartmann says...Democracy is in our DNA now. It may not seem that important for most people at the moment, but threaten to take it away right before their eyes? Really bad idea.

[Marr]

20. I think the comparison is appropriate.

They aren't identical, but the themes are present-- the same general forces are at work.

I've no doubt that some members of the business community would abhor the notion of some asshole declaring himself Dictator- but would they stick their necks out and say so, once it had happened? I seriously doubt it. They're parasites. They'll do what they always do, sit back and wait to see whether or not they need to change hosts.

Would people revolt if Bush tried this? I have no idea. To be perfectly honest with you, judging from the disinterested looks I get from family and friends whenever I try to discuss these issues with them, I rather doubt it.

But no matter how bad the aftermath of such a move would be, it doesn't mean the Bush team wouldn't *try* it. They haven't exactly been superstars when it comes to post-invasion planning.

[Mythsaje]

21. The reason you've gotten disinterested looks

is that it's purely theoretical. Most people don't believe it can happen. I believe it COULD, I just don't think it will.

As far as BushCo's ability to plan anything, you're entirely correct.

[Marr]

22. Actually, I don't mean this specific prospect.

I mean things like the US attorney firings, election fraud... those sorts of things.

You know, things that ought to piss anyone off if they care about anything beyond cheetos and TV. It's usually greeted with a disinterested stare and a change of subject to some moronic pop culture garbage or gossip.

But hey, I hope you're right. Especially on the character of the modern American populace.

Also- I'm not saying these things *will* happen, either. I'm saying they very well *could*. I thought you were saying they could not, because the system wouldn't tolerate it.

[Mythsaje]

23. You hang around the WRONG people...

I know a FEW people who respond that way, but not many.

[Marr]

24. Yeah, it really pisses me off anymore.

I try not to even discuss things of any import with some of them. One friend told me flat out that she "doesn't want to know about any of it". I don't get it- I really don't.

I mean, I actually have more respect for a right-winger. At least they're *aware* of the issues. They choose to take a deplorable stance on almost all of them, sure, but they are at least aware. The people who just don't want to know... they actually piss me off alot more.

[Mythsaje]

25. Me too...

I've known a few people who'd say "I don't DO politics."

My usual response "Yeah, well, politics is going to DO you."

At that point I usually walk away and refuse to have anything to do with them anymore. I'm funny that way.

[Vilis Veritas]

64. I say the comparison is dead on.

And so does my Step-Mother and she is old school German and she does see a lot of similarities and if you know anything about the BFEE, you will realize that they supported that very regime for many years. Even during the War...

"On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City. President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley, signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading with the Enemy Act." from Wikipedia...

Peace, hopefully...

[Quantess]

13. John Edwards is my favorite.

[Greyhound]

26. LOL!

:rofl::cry::rofl:

[Usrename]

28. Sure, the economic collapse of the Soviet Union was not profitable.

You remind me of people who argue that the Iraq war is not about oil. And then they say our high gasoline prices somehow prove that claim.

As if they would be expected to share their oil booty with the common citizens after they went to such trouble to steal it for themselves.

What kind of evidence do you have to support your claim that: "Weird crap like this is simply bad for business"?

I'm just curious about this. Under which circumstances that have been predicted do you think they don't just get richer.

"They sold a bill of goods and weren't able to back it up with results, and corporate America HATES that kind of shit."

Which sector of corporate America is upset? The energy sector? The military contractor sector? The finance sector?

Yeah, there's certainly a lot of crazy talk going around. But it's not coming from the folks that are talking of fascism, or in particular drawing parallels to the Nazi or Soviet regimes.

[Mythsaje]

29. Social upheaval IS bad for business...

What YOU people don't seem to get is that Americans wouldn't just lie down and roll over for it. Some would, certainly. But a LOT of us will not.

One of the things about this place that makes me crazy is that so many people seem to WANT the worst to happen. It's our version of the U.N. Black Helicopter crap that went on with the Righties during the Clinton administration.

Going along the same path we're already on, without the craziness of a coup, is FAR more profitable in the long run than some political snatch and grab operation. A complacent, hypnotized population is FAR easier to control than one that knows without a doubt that some fucked up shit is going on.

We'd have a civil war, without a doubt. It might take a while to heat up, but it would happen. And you think the PTBs don't know that? Oh, hell. Maybe they don't? But they should. Take away the things that are hypnotizing the people and replacing them with the undeniable truth wouldn't serve anyone's purpose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. You sure of this statement?

I can bet, based on US HISTORY that two thirds (at least) will let it pass and make the best they can.... it is a myth that people will stand up...

In fact,we have many 'round these parts who are of the school of.... we are free and it can't happen here

Guess what, join the Germans, you think you are free, and it is happening here

When you have corporations WRITING legislation, what do you think that is called? (Me prof, me... fascism)

Of course at this point I am willing to bet that my best course, for short and long term survival might be to let you native born americans fight it out... most of you will not... and we naturalized citizens who have seen this already happen are getting tired of being the cassandras.

Oh and a clampdown is so damn easy...

[Mythsaje]

32. Absolutely sure? No.

This isn't 1920s and 30s Germany, new to the idea of Democracy. This is a country that prides itself on its freedom, even if a lot of people have forgotten what that means. It would be VERY bad for something to happen to remind them forcibly. Very bad indeed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. As I wrote, when you have

corporations already writing legislation, you are correct in saying this is not the Germany of 1930s, but the US of 2007, that is the classic definition given by Mussolini of Fascism... better understood as corporatism. that is happening in the right here and now... not in 1930s Germany... wake up and smell the stink.

As to your faith in the American People I am sorry, but as a HISTORIAN, with a masters in the subject and a study in US History, I also don't share it.

Any and all major events usually have the following breakdown

1\3 for it

1\3 against it

1\3 that does not give a shit

Guess what? We have it today, same division... 25-35% hard core bushies, 25=35% left wingers, progressives, whatever name you want to use, and the rest are your mushy middle, who have a job, have to pay a mortgage and don't give a shit. Give them a cold beer at the end of the day, and some distraction on the tube.

So if this is ever fought fist to cuffs or by firearms, my personal fear and I see signs of that coming, it will start with a small minority, who is very committed, but still a minority. The last third will pick the side that is about to win.

Oh and though I may make references to Nazi Germany, which is a familiar example, I could as well make them to Chile, Spain (under Franco), Zimbawe, Mexico under the PRI, or a more familiar example in the form of the USSR. Totalitarian regimes shares many elements with each other, regardless of the outwards so called political philosophy. Some are harder on the unwashed masses, while others, like the PRI (which would be their prefered model) are softer and kinder...why they were called a dictablanda, but trust me, when the state needed to make examples people disapeared. Oh way, people have in the US... does the name Padilla ring any bells? And he was not the only one either.

But I repeat, it is not going to happen, it is already here.

[Mythsaje]

36. As a historian, surely you're aware that

history is mostly bullshit. It's information filtered through so many levels of perception, preconception, and censorship that who knows what's real and what's not. I'm damn near as agnostic about history as I am about religion. It's what they WANTED us to know, not necessarily what actually happened.

And, yeah, as things stand NOW we have that division. Seemingly. But you also have to keep in mind that the "uninterested" third is partially made up of people who are already disaffected. They think politics are bullshit and their voice is meaningless. You do a great disservice to people to assume that they're all just trying to get their beer at the end of the day. A lot of the youth who don't vote already think the government is fucked up.

The more you try to convince me, the more I'm leaning the other way. They don't NEED to do it overtly because they've already got a stranglehold more complete that they'd manage with an armed coup. All they have to do is continue in much the same fashion as they already have and it'll roll right over us. As you've said--it's already happening. Why make it any harder than it has to be?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Sure it is bullshit

that is why when it repeats itself, and people repeat what you just said, I just smile... knowing that what is repeating is not events, but patterns of behavior

By the way, Padilla was still picked up and thrown into a brig for three years no lawyer and the original charge is not even part of the current complaints before the court.

Habeas Corpus was still suspended

Posse Commitatus has been replaced by the Military Commissions

We still have Special Renditions

The Geneva Conventions are still quaint

Corporations are STILL writing our legislation

Spying on US Citizens without a warrant has still happened

FISA was written in 1979

Thousands of mostly foreign born legal aliens of arab dissent still disappeared from our streets after 9.11

The reason why they did not open camps like they did after Pearl Harbor was due to military resistance (Yep I happen to know that one for a fact)

It would be so much easier if this was a dictatorship as long as I was the dictator, GW Bush, 2000

But you are right, we truly live still in a free country and nothing bad is going to happen

They also thought they were free... oops I forgot history is bullshit.

[Mythsaje]

41. See, you got one thing wrong

I've never operated under the assumption that this was a free country. I know better. I was RAISED to know better. It's always been a kindler, gentler fascism. This asshole just took it to the next level and made it more blatant than it ever was before.

That said, it's STILL unnecessary to go to the lengths some people fear. Our only hope at this point is that we can make enough noise to get Congress to do SOMETHING that'll break the whole thing wide open. Impeachment would be one of our best bets, followed by a criminal case somewhere else. Like the Hague.

I doubt it'll happen, simply because too many of the Democrats are on board with the original plan, the one that Bush nearly fucked up by being such a blatant asshole and getting caught out in all his naked glory. They'll turn him into a scapegoat, play at a bipartisan slap on the wrist, and it'll be shuffled under the rug just like Iran/Contra was.

As I already said, THAT is the way the game is played. Keep the people ignorant and happy and they'll go about their business. All this talk of a coup is a paranoid fantasy on the level of the black helicopters the RW was screaming about in the 90s.

Sure, they'll do something to help slide some of us back into complacency. Offer us a few nostrums to placate us, but they'll keep some of the power Bush gained for them. And Congress will play right along with it.

Are you telling me you didn't catch the gist of my OP? I thought I covered all of that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Well I am sorry

I still know history is not bullshit

But obviously you have refused to learn the lessons that it has to offer... don't worry, so have many others... and they happen to be on the other side exactly of where you are regarding impeachment, funny, but you are not that different.

By the way... if this country has never been free, how exactly is democracy in the DNA?

That is a contradiction but oh well.

Hartman, who has used the term, does not believe the country was not free.

[Mythsaje]

46. Oh, c'mon...

Did George Washington chop down a cherry tree? Did he have wooden teeth? Or did he die of syphylis?

Which one of these things is true?

History is full of crap some putz or another wanted us to believe. I know because they spent several years trying to shovel that crap into my head.

Germany was ripe for the picking for Hitler and his crew because they'd lost WWI decisively and the Treaty of that stinking French word I can't spell--The Sun King's palace, wasn't it?--practically bankrupted them. The jews were made into scapegoats, Hitler promised a new prosperity, and that was that.

Democracy (as we've had it) and freedom (as we'd recognize the term) aren't necessarily the same thing. People have had the illusion of choice, and, to a certain extent, ACTUAL choice in some things. THAT is the part that's "in their DNA" as Hartmann says. And, yeah, I was quoting him.

But people are strangly vulnerable to manipulation and convinced to believe some really screwy shit at times. Like their support for the fucking drug war, for example. If THAT hasn't done plenty to erode our freedoms for the past thirty goddamn years, I'll eat my hat. And I've been saying so for at least the last fifteen years, as they became more blatant about their crap.

THIS particular SCOTUS is only SLIGHTLY more fucked up than the one before it. I agree with NONE of their rulings, as opposed to only 1 out of 3.

You still haven't explained why they'd bother to do it openly and blatantly when they've managed quite well going in the way they've been going.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Ok let me take your points one by one

Did George Washington chop down a cherry tree? Did he have wooden teeth? Or did he die of syphylis?

Any historian that knows his stuff will tell you this cherry tree story is the foundation myth created out of whole cloth by one Washington Irving. It is shameful that this was tought in public schools for up to oh the 1980s, but at least when I went to COLLEGE this rubbish was not tuaght... he did have wooden teetch, any descent biographer of Washington will tell you he had horrible dental health, to the point of major pain... and the teeth as in wooden and later ivory were common and top of the line in the 18th century. As to syphilis, possible comon diease in the era, but his direct cause of death was pneumonia.

Germany was ripe for the picking for Hitler and his crew because they'd lost WWI decisively and the Treaty of that stinking French word I can't spell--The Sun King's palace, wasn't it?--practically bankrupted them. The jews were made into scapegoats, Hitler promised a new prosperity, and that was that.


that is the short version of the rise to power by Adolf Hitler. But yes the faction that blamed the politicians for loosign the war helped to set the stage, and the Versaille treaty did set the ground work for not only WW II (which some historians consider today a continuation of WW I) but also for the mE mess... that we are goign through right now. The Summer of 1919, were still paying for it. As to Jews being made scapegoats, perhaps you should read both Mein Kampf and Der Surmfueher... the words are in there... or were they lying to you too? If you want information on this you might have to read some history


Democracy (as we've had it) and freedom (as we'd recognize the term) aren't necessarily the same thing. People have had the illusion of choice, and, to a certain extent, ACTUAL choice in some things. THAT is the part that's "in their DNA" as Hartmann says. And, yeah, I was quoting him.

Democratic societies do not exist in unfree societies, and Hartmann has made that point repeteadly as well. This democracy will go away soon enough

But people are strangly vulnerable to manipulation and convinced to believe some really screwy shit at times. Like their support for the fucking drug war, for example. If THAT hasn't done plenty to erode our freedoms for the past thirty goddamn years, I'll eat my hat. And I've been saying so for at least the last fifteen years, as they became more blatant about their crap.

Yes, in that we agree, but war is a force that gives us meaning, and hodeges explained why very well in that book. It is NOT a prowar book, as those who have never read it claim, but quite honestly the best (outside of scholarly papers ) on it. They Thought they Were Free is also a good read, as well as hanah Arendt's the Banality of Evil

THIS particular SCOTUS is only SLIGHTLY more fucked up than the one before it. I agree with NONE of their rulings, as opposed to only 1 out of 3.

This SCOTUS is quite right wing, and corrupt

You still haven't explained why they'd bother to do it openly and blatantly when they've managed quite well going in the way they've been going.

Becuae the ilusion of the last six years is no longer working, the same reason the Nazis, franco, and Stalin felt the need to clamp down in the end. It reaches a point, in this PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR that you are left no choice if you are to remain in power. What is more, why built on all this authoritarian system if youa re going to surrender it at the end of yoru term? Or in other words, they have not respected the law from day one, why should they respect it on Januray 20th of 2009?

[Usrename]

44. I think social upheaval is of no concern to these people.

Do you really think they give a damn?

The US government is never outgunned. Not here, not anywhere. These people that you say are not going to lay down, what will they do? Shoot it out? And when they are labeled terrorists or insurgents, do you really think they will have a good chance of winning?

The whole world is watching this nightmare.

Except for the fact that Hitler targeted Jews and Bush is targeting Muslims, what is the big difference that you see between the two? It seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

He just had another executive order, you know, one that allows him the unfettered power to seize assets of any individuals or entities that he declares to be a threat to national security or to the mission in Iraq. How is any Muslim or Arab supposed to resist this crap? Bush can take their property without consulting any other branch of government. Is there really no parallel with the way that the European Jews were treated in pre-war Germany?

And another thing, this is the same administration that borrowed 4 trillion dollars to give 3 trillion dollars in tax cuts.

That's about 30 grand per taxpayer in tax cuts. Why would they do this? What is the motive? Do you really think they have any concern for anyone?

Don't you realize yet that these monsters could care less about any social upheaval, and that nothing is bad for business except for the deep rooted fear that someday the unwashed masses might get it together and rise up to throw them out on the streets?

Again I ask, what is this huge difference that you see between us and Germany in the 30's? You must be able to identify something a little more specific than we are the good guys and they were the bad guys.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Perhaps he needs to go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1384733

hold it, history is bullshit

[Mythsaje]

48. Most of it is, and you damn well know it.

There are layers upon layers and the majority of us barely see the surface of all those layers. THAT'S the bullshit part.

It's like most Americans believing Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks and not realizing that he was a CIA asset trained to help fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Nio I don't

but as soembody who has a masters I've read plenty of PRIMARY Sources

And I know the layers

but no, I don't know history is bullshit

but if you insist

While OBL was a CIA asset, operative word is WAS in the 1980s. By the 1991 war he went rogue after we left trops in the land of the two cities, (mecca and Medina) becasue we left troops there, western infidels. That IS the origin of Al Qaida, the base

Now did OBL launch this? Yes

Did we allow it? Yes.. LIHOP

Just like Hitler, they needed a new pearl harbor, per PNAC, oh I forgot, History is bullshit

[Stand and Fight]

35. I think you've got it down pretty well...

I understand the seductiveness of thinking that Bush and the Neo-Cons will go overboard by nuking and declaring martial law, but in all honesty, I think that is a load of poppycock.

While the corporations may play a big part in all of this, I can tell you that the military is more than a little sick and tired of Bush and crew. Considering the fact that they secure all the nukes there is no way in hell that scenario will happen. You have to remember that many of those in the military have families. You really think they're going to jeopardize there family's safety for the little monkey? Frick no they're not! More importantly, even if Bush were to simply try to stay in office, they have pissed too many people off -- beyond the corporations -- within the government to overstay they're welcome.

I agree with your points and it is nice to see that not everyone is giving over to doom and gloom.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

39. The world is full of idiots.

And the internet is full of anonymous idiots. Seriously, half of these people will be disappointed when Bush leaves office peacefully, as it will rubbish their masturbatory fantasies.

[timtom]

47. Let me say

that I am probably 55% believer in Bush/Cheney not leaving peacefully, or that there will be no 2008 election.

If they DO leave peacefully, I will wildly welcome the rubbishing of my "masturbatory fantasies."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. You people said the same thing about the 2004 election.

I'm pretty tired of the paranoid arm-waving crowd around here. Oh ya, and Osama's getting trotted out before the 2006 election. And there will be another terrorist attack before the 2004 - no, wait! - 2006 election. And it will be stolen by Diebold. Do you guys ever get tired of being wrong?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Have you read Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast

your explanation of what happened in 2004 is in there.

Why not have elections when you cam maintain the illusion and ahem steal them?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. If you're going to cry foul...

...not only every time you lose elections, but when you win them, then you have no business being interested in politics.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Once again HAVE YOU READ ARMED MADHOUSE

and you know what a CAGING LIST is...

Lastly, you do know the Republicans were banned by consent decree from the practice

[timtom]

53. You obviously missed the intent of my post.

(bad parsing skills)

NO. I would never get tired of being wrong.

55%. Just a bare majority of me.

[Vilis Veritas]

63. You people?

Wow. Great post, no really.

Thanks...and now for something completely different...

Minstrel: Brave Sir Robin ran away...
Sir Robin: *No!*
Minstrel: bravely ran away away...
Sir Robin: *I didn't!*
Minstrel: When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Sir Robin: *I never did!*
Minstrel: Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about, and valiantly, he chickened out.
Sir Robin: *Oh, you liars!*
Minstrel: Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat. A brave retreat by brave Sir Robin.


Peace

[Vilis Veritas]

62. I for one will not be disapointed...

And I have explored this possible scenario...NSPD-51 puts the scenario on the table.

Also, NSPD-51 gives that power to any FUTURE pres as well...what am I missing? I guess I should just STFU and sit on the sidelines and watch it all unfold. Just like my Mother did in Germany...thanks for reminding me to "Go quietly into that good night..."

Peace, hopefully.

[MatrixEscape]

65. Thanks for bringing that up.

I would add:

For those who are calling our concerns about the "next event" hysterical, idiotic, and the like, I would offer NSPD-51 and COG as evidence.

And it would not at all be tempting to be able to seize overt control of the assets and military of a country with such a magnitude of said as the opportunity and conditions present themselves?

If we were to focus on the Presidential directives, (and ask questions as to the breadth and scope of actions it allows) then would being concerned about the how and why be unworthy of consideration and public scrutiny?

There seems to be an element of shock and denial that elicits knee-jerk reactions when a more cogent and lucid response, based on the information at hand would be more convincing to those who are now getting labeled in defamatory ways here from six ways to Sunday.

[Vilis Veritas]

66. I bring it up as often as I can...

and all I get is crickets...and an occasional affirmation...thanks.

Peace

[baldguy]

56. And the President wouldn't tell a string of lies to start a war, would he?

He wouldn't expose the identity of an active CIA agent to retaliate politically against her husband, would he?

He wouldn't spy on you, he wouldn't listen in on your phone conversations, he wouldn't sift through your bank records.

He wouldn't purposely alienate our allies, and give aid & comfort to our enemies.

He wouldn't order the torture of prisoners. He wouldn't order his underlings to ignore a Congressional subpoena.

And he wouldn't cancel elections, even though "a dictatorship would be a hell of a lot easier - just as long as I'm the dictator."

[OwnedByFerrets]

57. And YOU live in a dream world if you DONT think

that its possible!!! Mark MY words.

[datasuspect]

58. if the government wasn't run by presidential fiat

if they were trustworthy, if the things that are ACTUALLY happening weren't happening, then your words might provide some consolation.

as it stands, i will mark your words, because i think they might end up seeming empty and hollow in the near future.

and that is no slam against you, but i think you might be proven wrong.

[leftofthedial]

59. 9-11 was "bad for business" too.

But the ensuing 6 years have been very good indeed for business.

It is not the "Pearl Harbor-type" event itself that determines its benefit to the corporate capitalist oligarchy; it is the ensuing result.

The bush cabal is a proxy for direct rule by the capitalist oligarchy. I fail to see how their desire to institute corporate feudalism in the US would be harmed by a bush grab for totalitarian rule.

[datasuspect]

60. business is involved in an endgame of sorts

right about now, everything is predicated on oil wealth.

they are divesting themselves of first world economies and cashing out big time.

the switch is to emerging markets in the second and third worlds.

a civil war in america might be good for business in china . . .

the captains of industry are beholden strictly to profits and they are the truest globalists.

these aren't stupid people, they probably don't watch too much teevee, and the only flags they'll wave are the flags that help increase market share and shareholder returns.

[leftofthedial]

68. capitalism has metastisized

[Vilis Veritas]

61. Uhmm...since I have said something like this...

Here is my response in my defense.

Why issue NSPD-51 if it was not at least "on the table"?

Just asking?

[MatrixEscape]

67. For those who want to read and understand

what is on the table, before the table is decimated:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20070624&articleId=6134

I would really suggest that the detractors from this issue take the time to read the writing on the wall first. I would think that further discussion the matter, pro and con, would be more informed and relevant.

This is not a comfortable situation, granted. I think a larger number of us who see the potentials would rather it not go this way. That does not stop us from being vigilant, (or are we throwing that founding guideline out, too?) and realistic about our collective and individual futures.

The matters-at-hand are serious and grave. Closer inspection and focus are truly warranted. Perhaps facts and circumstances can trump opinions and beliefs? I would welcome information that proves contrary to the NSPD-51 playing out.