My head just exploded: "the hip hop culture" is responsible for dog fighting

[CatWoman]

and Michael Vick is part of that culture.

I shit you not.

This wingnut idiot bitch just said that.

[yardwork]

1. Kind of blows the "country boy" argument out of the water, don't it?

Which is it, Vick? Country boy or hip-hop?

What assholes these people are.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. It's Country Hip-Hop

We can really narrow down the causes that way.
The Professor

[silvermachine]

Damn you Cowboy Troy!!!!

eom

[ProfessorGAC]

27. See! You've Solved It Already

Cowboy Troy is responsible for dog-fighting.

Case closed! Boy, that was easy.
GAC

[MilesColtrane]

114. Why do you think they call their homies a "posse"?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Like dog fighting hasn't been around since what, the bronze age?

[MADem]

5. What, hip hop doesn't have its roots in ancient Rome? Who knew!!!!!

:rofl:

[CatWoman]

9. Friends, Romans, Countrymen

give me your bling :P

[Viva_La_Revolution]

48. ...

:spray:

[NeedleCast]

82. Goody Mob said

"Friends, Romans, Countrymen
Lend me your ear drums
It was a beautiful day up in the neighborhood
yellows and greens and browns blues and hues that ooze
beneath dilapidated wood."

There ya go...hip hop culture ties to the Roman Empire.:P

[MilesColtrane]

116. "I come to bury Caesar, not to pour a forty on the curb for him."

[Starbucks Anarchist]

112. Veni, Vidi, Gucci.

;)

[silvermachine]

3. What show/who said this?

I'm not surprised though...just like the Goths were responsible for Columbine.:eyes: Let the scapegoating begin. The blame lies with the individual, not with hip-hop.

[CatWoman]

7. not a show, on another blog

whole comment:

By Buy Danish

July 20, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Bosch,

I am saying that the liberals on this blog won’t place the blame where it deserves to be - squarely on the head of a depraved thug hip hop culture, or on the individuals like Vick who are products of that culture.

what a truly disgusting witch.

[yardwork]

88. Did you alert, or are bigoted comments allowed on that other blog?

Just horrible.

[CatWoman]

95. well, there is no moderator per se

check it out: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/2007/07/19/vick_groupie.html

[leftyladyfrommo]

37. PBS had a special report on this on Lehrer just last nite.

The whole gang bang, rapper (the bad rapper culture that is into guns and drugs and prostitution) have been the main cause of the current rise in the popularity of dog fighting. It is all part of that super macho gang banger culture.

[Le Taz Hot]

46. I know I'm in the minority around here

but I have to agree. The violence within modern day pop culture saddens me to no end. So much of the music, the language, the antagonistic behavior is so counter to what I grew up with (the 60's). The dog fighting is just one symptom and yes, I realize dog fighting didn't start in 21st Century America.

[Party Line]

130. I saw that PBS report too

As usual, good reporting from the Newshour. I don't know how many people around here have lived in a city all their life like I have but, as a city resident, I can tell you that crap like dogfighting didn't happen around here when I was a kid in the 70's and 80's. Now you see assholes with pitbulls on heavy chain leashes all the time. Things are different and it's not good.

[Bridget Burke]

108. Yeah, blame Alaric for Columbine! n/t

[Gman]

4. When I see all the wannabe gangbangers walking around with their Pit Bulls

I tend to agree. It's a gang/macho thing. I've never seen more Pits around like I see now and with people that obviously don't have a clue about having a dog, much less a dangerous one like a Pit.

And I saw Vick's brother at the door talking to a reporter with his pants pulled halfway down his boxer underwear. Whoever made the comment is right on the money.

[CatWoman]

11. are you being serious?

[Gman]

21. My post below was back to you

clicked the wrong "reply"

[CatWoman]

86. ok, I had to take a walk and digest your comments

before coming back to say that that is the most racist bullshit I have ever heard

And I saw Vick's brother at the door talking to a reporter with his pants pulled halfway down his boxer underwear. Whoever made the comment is right on the money.

can you please explain to me what the fuck does how he wears his pants have to do with anything? been to any malls lately? I see more white kids wearing their pants "pulled halfway down to their boxer underwear."

so now how people wear their pants identifies them as dog fighter enthusiasts?

[Clark2008]

99. I have to say that I keep hoping that "style" goes by the wayside

long before my son gets old enough to care.

I've always hated the pants down to the knees, showing underwear style because I know where it came from: prison. From having their belts taken away.

I don't think it's "cool," no matter what color one is, to emulate prisoners.

But, I do wonder what that has to do with dog fighting. :shrug:

[devilgrrl]

128. I told some snotty kid that his hanging pants were sooooo 1992.

Because they are.

It still has nothing with dogs.

[butterfly77]

98. They are...

I have noticed every since Imus was let go, whenever some issue with a black male comes up I hear that rap has something to do with it, as though every black person is interested in rap and if they are it would not necessarliy cause them to do one thing or the other. THere are many influences in this country that effects all people in one way or the other. I wonder how hard rock influences may be devil worshipping.

Too bad I don't hear all of this outrage when human beings are being killed.

[Gman]

Serious as a heart attack

Very seriously, I'm about to go get a concealed carry permit and get a gun for when I walk my dogs. I'll be damned if I'm going to let one of my dogs get mauled because some punk has no business owning the inbred Pit he can't control.

[messiah2012]

73. I agree. I know this sounds bad.

But if I ever run over a dog while out driving around, my first instinct is going to be to floor it and get the hell out of there, I don't care where I am. These days you are liable to get into a gunfight over accidentally running over somebody's pet. The situation has potentially arisen on a few occaisons when I've been driving out in the country, people just letting there animals roam around.

[RamboLiberal]

75. I agree as well - as I posted in another thread

One reason I carry when I walk my dog in my neighborhood is the proliferation of pit bulls, many owned by the macho tough guys and gals. I'm not going to lose my dog if one of these pit bulls is loose. These dogs have become the "in" dog to have by whites and blacks in my area.

I live near Pittsburgh and the pit bull has become the dog of choice in the urban area. There's a lot of underground dog fighting in many of these neighborhoods. And there's a lot of cruelty to these dogs by their "owners". IMHO there's a lot of blame to go around among the hip-hop, gangsta culture for guns, murder, drugs and dog-fighting and to many rich white record executives for proliferating this culture.

It's not the sole reason certainly, but IMHO there's an element of rap and hip-hop that was not a good thing for the African-American community and is responsible for much of the black-on-black crime and the horrible number of young African-American men ending up in prison.

I think sometimes we liberals want to be so color-blind and fair we fail to recognize when an element of culture does proliferate something that is destructive. Yeah dog-fighting has a long history but right now unfortunately much of the resurgence is occurring in the urban lower socio-economic neighborhoods. And don't forget many of the hip-hop artists and the suddenly-rich athletes originally grew up in these neighborhoods. Just cause their rich doesn't mean what they followed in their neighborhoods doesn't follow them in to their suddenly super-rich lives.

I do believe this is the reason for much of the crime that is occurring in hip-hop and in sports currently. Too often now the sports pages read more like the crime pages.

I'll also lay the blame to those who profit from the artists and athletes, the owners of entertainment and sports teams. They need to say we will no longer tolerate this behavior and drop the contracts of those who do criminal or outrageous moral acts.

Another place dog-fighting is unfortunately proliferating is in the stupid racist "white-power Aryan nation" bunch and in the meth crowd. But again I think you find these people coming from the lower socio-economic scale. So no it's not just a racial thing but IMHO has its origin in a lower "socio-economic" culture.

[MADem]

18. Well, you can agree, but you'd be dead wrong, as would the person making the original claim.

A little history--the "sport" (term used loosely) goes back a little further than the birth of hip-hop:

The modern ‘sport’ of dog fighting has its origins in the Coliseum combats of ancient Rome. Emperor Lucullus was reputedly the first to initiate the practice of pitting dogs against other animals: a group of dogs would be thrown into the Coliseum, doomed to be trampled to death by wild elephants.

Following the fall of Rome, the practice of fighting dogs made its reappearance in medieval England. Beginning in at least the 12th Century, such practices as bull and bear baiting, in addition to mortal combats between dogs and lions or elephants, became increasingly popular. In Elizabethan London, on the south banks of the Thames, a popular attraction was the Bear Gardens – an attraction that even Queen Elizabeth graced. Indeed, royal approval of bear baiting included the appointment of an official ‘Master of the Bears and Dogs.’

By the middle of the 17th Century, the popularity in England of baiting sports with at least the nobility had declined rather dramatically; by 1835, humane groups succeeded in outlawing all baiting sports in an act of Parliament known as the Humane Act of 1835.

The growing costliness and scarcity of bears and bulls in the 1700s for baiting purposes had encouraged the practice of fighting dogs against each other for sporting exhibition purposes. The passage of the Humane Act of 1835 however provided the chief incentive for the growth of dog fighting: with the baiting of larger animals illegal, dog fighting became the primary alternative for animal fighting fanciers.

The growth of dog fighting upon the passage of the Humane Act of 1835 was made possible by the development of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. First bred around 1800, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier combined the strength of the Bulldog with the quickness and viciousness of the Terrier. The result was an excellent fighting dog capable of engaging in voracious combat for hours.

http://www.peoriahs.org/dogfighthistory.htm

More on law from Humane Society:
http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/dogfighting_fact_sheet/

[Gman]

25. All of that is completely true but

it has nothing to do with the level this has deteriorated to in the US in 2007.

[woo me with science]

33. Very interesting history lesson

but you are either very sheltered or in denial if you don't believe dogfighting has become a serious problem in gang culture.

[MADem]

41. Go back and read the original assertion. Actually READ it.

"The Hip Hop culture is RESPONSIBLE for dog fighting."

Yeah, and Tiger Woods is RESPONSIBLE for the game of golf.

Certainly, that subset of society is involved in the activity, but they didn't invent it and they aren't the only ones who participate, or have ever participated, in it.

:eyes:

[woo me with science]

58. Rolling your eyes and nitpicking about wording. That is quite an adolescent response.

Whether or not they originated it, they are perpetuating it in a serious way right now. So, yes, they absolutely bear responsibility for it and the problems associated with it.

I don't understand the problem with acknowledging this. As I said, the history is very interesting. However, on a political discussion board, I am most interested in understanding what is driving it now, so that the problem can be addressed. Your responses offer absolutely nothing in that regard. In fact, they appear to wish to divert responsibility from those involved.

[MADem]

72. Oh, bullshit. Learn to fucking read. I actually do read what people write.

It aids discussion, see? The OPs objection was to the language used on television. And the language WAS objectionable.

Perpetuating isn't the same as "BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR." You're a half step away from "All you people" territory when you get sloppy with language like that.

Those militia nuts and White Supremacists get a kick out of dogfighting, too--I doubt they listen to hip hop.

And insisting that people be precise, especially when they're walking close to the line, that's not being adolescent--no matter how you try to characterize it in that fashion. It's avoiding broad-brushed bullshit statements, is what it is.

Here, do some reading, and learn a little: http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/05/4/tsg.dogfightingMeth4.05.htm

Dogfighting, meth cookers, & the KKK

ANDERSON, S.C.––Firefighters responding to a March 20 explosion and fire at a methamphetamine still in Anderson County, South Carolina, found 23 pit bull terriers chained to nearby trees, along with 24 Chihuahuas and an Akita. Burn victim John Woods was airlifted to Augusta, Georgia for emergency care. Quilla Ralph Woods, 59, and Brenda Joyce Keaton, 51, with charged with illegally manufacturing methadrine. Q.R. Woods “has a 15-page criminal history dating to 1966 and is listed on the state’s sex offender registry,” reported Charmaine Smith and Kelly Davis of the Anderson Independent-Mail. Q.R. Woods also was charged with possession of a firearm by a felon.

The circumstances under which the dogs were found would appear virtually certain to bring related criminal convictions, but prosecutors have often run into legal obstacles in pursuing charges against suspected breeders of fighting dogs and the breeders’ spouses. The main difficulty is in proving that the breeders and their spouses knew that the dogs were used for criminal activity.

....The association of white supremacists with the breeding of fighting dogs was again exposed on March 14 in San Francisco, when attorneys for Marjorie Knoller, 49, asked the California First District Court of Appeal to reverse her involuntary manslaughter conviction for the January 2001 dog-mauling death of neighbor Diane Whipple, 33. On the same day, the prosecution asked the same court to reinstate a second degree murder conviction against Knoller, set aside by trial judge James Warren before she was sentenced. Knoller’s husband, Robert Noel, 63, was also convicted of involuntary manslaughter, and has also appealed.....

[Marrah_G]

102. I would put it like this

Gang culture, not necessarily hip-hop culture, has embraced dog-fighting and pit bulls. When i was married to a law enforcement officer, if he was out with my kids in uniform and there was a rottie or a pit we would not let the kids approach the dog, even if it looked friendly because the particular gangs in our area trained the dogs to go after the uniform.

Dog fighting has been around for a really long time, it has just become a new trend in certain groups it had not been popular in before.

[northzax]

51. nobody is arguing seriously that dogfighting has its roots in hip hop culture

but to ignore the reality that the 'gangsta' culture subset of hip hop culture has contributed to the resurgence of dogfighting in urban areas is just silly.

[MADem]

76. What's "silly" is ignoring racism. Certainly elements of hiphop culture particpate, but

they're not the first group to so do, and they aren't the only ones doing it these days, either.

CONTRIBUTES does not equal RESPONSIBLE FOR. No one is ignoring the contribution, but singling out one group--rather eagerly--while ignoring the others who pull the same shit isn't right, either. IF you really want to discuss the topic, and not simply cast blame on one group.

Words matter. That's the OPs point.

[leftyladyfrommo]

20. No, that's true. The whole gang banger macho thing has really

taken to dog fighting. And it is very big business. Its a lot bigger than the whole my dog is more kick ass than your dog is. There are huge amounts of money won and lost.

We had a bust in Leavenworth, Ks where there was $50,000 on the table.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of children growing up in that culture that think dog fighting is a family sport.

[Joe Fields]

56. Totally agree.

[NMMNG]

101. Yeah, because dog fighting didn't exist before Hip Hop

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

103. OMG, who are you

:wow: Please, tell me, where do you live, how old are you. That is the funniest shit I have ever read. I gotta know how you got those crazy ideas into your head.

I remember when pit bulls were trained to kill "N******". I bet you don't know nothin' about that though.

[sarge43]

6. Had hip hop culture in 16th century England, you say?

Well, it's Friday; the morans got their weekend pass early.

[shadowknows69]

8. Those gregorian monks could rap like a muther fucker yo

[sarge43]

24. Billy the Shakes got it down. n/t

[MNDemNY]

10. I'm pretty sure video games are responsible for dog fighting.

[MADem]

23. Or "teen sex"...yeah, that's the ticket!! NT

[MNDemNY]

31. Not to mention opposition to the Iraq war..

I'm sure that is a big component.

[Hobarticus]

49. Marilyn Manson. eom

[yardwork]

90. I think that it's the liberal policies of the 1960s.

The Great Society is responsible for dog fighting, and Vick is a product of that Society.

[Virginia Dare]

129. I'm pretty sure complete and utter ignorance and stupidity is responsible..n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

12. I don't know what hip hop is but the rap culture has made

dog fighting worse.

There are several levels of dog fighting. One are the professionals. And there is one other level I can't remember. But the bottom level are the gang bangers. And the whole rapper thing has fed into that part of the whole thing.

It is all tied to drugs and guns and other really violent kinds of behavior. The gangs have taken up the sport. There are almost always quatities of drugs and guns and tons of money confiscated when they break up these dog fighting operations.

It is really horrific.

[MNDemNY]

60. So, would not that be the "culture of crime and drugs" rather then the "rap culture"

or is that the same thing??

[yardwork]

91. Rap = African American = Culture of crime and drugs to many bigots

It's really sad to see people here on DU buy into this racist, sloppy thinking.

[Kagemusha]

13. It's not so much hip-hop as the NFL player subculture.

It's a by-product of their being rich, relatively unaccountable, deeply entwined in a violent sport, and therefore, being big fans of other violent sports, real or fictional (boxing, professional wrestling is big with them I hear, etc). Dog fighting is just an 'xtreme' edge of it for NFL players who want to push the boundaries, get their hands a little dirty, liven up their off-field lives, etc.

Therefore the wingnut idiot... woman, is not entirely wrong, but is painting with a broad brush too.

[Philosoraptor]

14. I'd much prefer a Cat Fight twixt Julie Newmar & Eartha Kitt...meeeyooowww

[CatWoman]

17. Hey P

:hi:

[mitchum]

19. If you find out where that's being held, I'll drive us both there :)

[Philosoraptor]

26. OK but I get to be Batman.

[MADem]

29. I'll bet on Eartha! nt

[Philosoraptor]

35. I wonder what Lee Meriwether is up to?

[MNDemNY]

62. Julie would stomp her scrawny a@@

[Philosoraptor]

63. Throw in Wonder Woman and I'm there.

[MNDemNY]

64. Not fair, she has deflecting arm bands!!

[Philosoraptor]

67. WW could restrain them all with her golden lasso of truthiness!

I need a cold shower Batman.

[Horse with no Name]

15. Well if you listened to those fascists

White America (collectively) is not responsible for ANYTHING bad. It is either the black or brown people. Always.

[northzax]

16. no, but dogfighting is an underground part of that culture

how many videos do you see that include big aggressive dogs? dog fighting is an increasingly urban (I was going to say sport, but that's not legitimate, so 'activity' maybe?)

[leftyladyfrommo]

28. Yea - its shifting. Dog fighting used to be a rural thing. But not

any more. It has moved into the urban areas.

I guess its not any more sick and depraved than the whole methamphetamine and crack culture. Its all awful.

One of the good new developments is that dog fighting is now a felony in 48 states. So the police are much more likely to try and do something about it. Before it was just a misdemeanor and it wasn't worth the time and money it takes to infiltrate and bust these guys - they would just get off with a small fine or something. Now there are huge fines and actual jail time.

But it is really difficult to infiltrate this culture. You have to know someone to get in. And the lacation of the fights are very closely held secrets. It takes a long time to get an undercover agent in. And then it is a very dangerous situtation. These are not nice people.

[MADem]

32. Which two states need encouragement? NT

[leftyladyfrommo]

38. I don't know but it wouldn't be too hard to find out.

I'm guessing Louisiana and maybe Texas. But I don't know.

[northzax]

47. that would be your Idaho and your Wyoming

as misdemeanors. However, organizing a dogfight is a felony under federal law, although participation or spectating is not.

[Horse with no Name]

34. My dog had puppies a year or two back

and I am aware that we have Pit Bull factories in this area.
I am not sure, but I think we had 7 puppies left and someone called and wanted all 7 AND the mother (after they asked how big she was).
Anyway, there was no doubt in my mind that those puppies were headed to be bait to train the pits.

[leftyladyfrommo]

40. That is very possible. Could have also been for research

facilities. An equally awful underground operation. Those guys are called Bunchers.

[yardwork]

93. Dog fighting is very much a white rural thing in North Carolina

There appears to be an epidemic of dog-fighting in rural North Carolina right now, and the photos of the people arrested are white.

[Kingshakabobo]

30. There was African American reporter on O'Lielly last night saying the same thing.......

ETA: Not exactly 'the same thing' as in hip-hop is 'responsible for dog fighting' but he was commenting on a certain segment of hip-hop embracing it.

He wasn't a wing-nut though. He was from one of the larger local?? papers covering the story.

He was mentioning the supposed glorification of the drug dealer (guard dogs etc.) in hip-hop culture and he even went on to mention the movie 'New Jack City', prefacing it by saying "as funny as it may sound." He went on to talk about the back-lash and move away from the negative 'values' of hip-hop.

Disclaimers:

1. Fox
2. O'Lielly
3. WTF do I know about hip-hop? Nothing. I'm so white, even white people call me whitey.
4. I was in violation of rules of my house watching cause he causes me to lose sleep and I throw things at the television.

[SidDithers]

77. Hi Whitey!...

:hi:

Sid

[Philosoraptor]

36. I suggest a global war on hip hop.

[RedStateShame]

50. Surely we'll be be "greeted as liberators" by the hip-hop community.

I'll wear proper eye protection for flying rose petals.

[Supersedeas]

85. Too funny.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Well...

I wouldn't associate it strictly with hip hop culture. Dog fighting has been a feature of Southern rural African American culture since long before hip hop came around. It is one of the unfortunate survivals within hip hop, and hip hop culture has moved it to urban areas. This is pretty well historically established.

Needless to say, dog fighting has a much more extensive history than that, and has been practiced all over the world for hundreds of years by many different cultures. But it is pretty hard to deny that in the United States, it found a home among a small portion of African American culture.

I am also not saying that African American culture is somehow to "blame" for dog fighting (and this probably distinguishes my point from the wingnut's bullshit, which is limited in any case if it identifies dog fighting with hip hop culture). But it is interesting. Nor am I saying that "every black person" feels the same way about dog fighting, or other such deterministic nonsense. Black culture is as varied as any other, and individual judgment is always present as well. That said, I think it would be an interesting study to examine the different relations towards animals in the a variety of subcultures (the other main venue for dog fighting being white rural culture, which clearly has a much different relationship to animals than, say, white suburban culture, or urban bourgeois culture). So, yes, culture is important. Culture provides us with frames for our activities that shade our interpretations of the world and therefore affect our behavior and decision making. A culture that forms its relationships to animals in one way will have far different practices than one that forms its relationships to animals in another way.

The bad way to read this is the way the wingnut does: hip hop is "responsible" for dog fighting. That's rather obvious nonsense. But it's equally nonsense to think that people make decisions about their behavior in a cultural vaccum, without benefit of the received meanings and standards that they learn through interaction in a specific cultural setting.

[leftofthedial]

42. that's silly

everyone knows that the hip hop culture is responsible for murder, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, misogyny and the precipitous decline in the the quality of popular music.

illegal immigrants are responsible for dog fighting.

glad I could help clear this up.

[Chovexani]

59. No no no

Video games are responsible for murder, duh.

Why, I just finished playing Resident Evil 4 and I just had to go shoot some parasite-infested crazy people in downtown Phoenix.

[kwassa]

43. the culture of dogfighting

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm

IV. The Culture of Dogfighting

The culture of dogfighting is as diverse as America itself. Dogfighters come from virtually all walks of life and engage in the blood sport at vastly different levels. Some fighters operate on a national or even international level within highly clandestine networks. These fighters are professionals that breed generations of skilled “game dogs," take a great deal of pride in the lineage of their dogs and charge tremendous stud fees to breed their champions. They publish trade journals for distribution to dogfighting enthusiasts around the world.<26> The journals, with names like Your Friend and Mine, Game Dog Times, The American Warrior, and The Pit Bull Chronicle, include information on recent fights including the winners and losers, and advertisements for training equipment and puppies. <27> One of the largest and most widely recognized, The Sporting Dog Journal, circulates over 10,000 copies worldwide.<28> Because the professional fighters are so geographically dispersed, they also utilize the internet to communicate with one another. The “cyber-dogmen” maintain websites that to the untrained eye appear to be networks of breeders or “game dog” fanciers. They often go so far as to publish legal disclaimers on the websites, maintaining that they do not condone dogfighting and the information should be “viewed as fiction” and utilized “for entertainment purposes only.”<29> The websites typically include specific information on the lineage of the dogs, historic accounts of dog-fighting that glorify anonymous, deceased, or ‘retired’ dog-men, and message boards for enthusiasts to discuss everything from buying and training champion fighting dogs to veterinary tips on treating wounded dogs.<30> Professional fighters are wealthy and experienced, often investing thousands of dollars on buying and training their dogs, and on transport to the fight venues. <31> The fights are extremely well organized and difficult for law enforcement to find.<32> Participants and spectators are often not told where the venues are until moments before the fight. “Gaining access to these circles is extremely hard,” says Eric Sakach, Director of the West Coast Regional Office of the Humane Society of the United States.<33>

The professional fighters are demographically diverse and geographically diffuse, unlike the mid-level dog-fighters who operate primarily within specific regions. The mid-level fighters are considered hobbyists,<34> enthusiasts, or fanciers. They typically remain within a specific geographic network, are acquainted with one another, and tend to return to predetermined fight venues repeatedly.<35> There are both urban and rural networks of dogfighting enthusiasts and the fighting subcultures largely depend on the culture of the larger regional community. The enthusiasts, like the professional dogfighters, typically have extensive criminal backgrounds, but they may appear to be highly respected community figures.<36> Spectators at the fights range from hard core criminals<37> to high profile public figures<38> and from law enforcement agents<39> to families with children.<40> The fights themselves are generally of the depraved carnival variety, set in remote barns or warehouses. Refreshments, entertainment, and gambling provide a backdrop for the bloody main event. Drug dealers distribute their illicit merchandise, wagers are made, weapons are concealed, and the dogs mutilate each other in a bloody frenzy as crowds cheer on. The gambling that is inherent at dog fights amplifies the already violent atmosphere. Violence often erupts among the usually armed gamblers, as debts must be collected and paid.<41>

No type of dog fighters are more violent however than the third group, the street fighters.<42> Dog fighting is an extremely common blood sport in all urban areas. Dog fighters are violent criminals, often gang members, who conduct and attend organized fights as a forum for gambling and drug trafficking. “Drugs, gangs, dope, dogs…they all go together.”<43> Within the gang community, fighting dogs compete with firearms as the weapon of choice; indeed, their versatile utility arguably surpasses that of a loaded firearm in the criminal underground. To the gang members, the dogs are an extension of each member’s status; the fights are championship matches that aggrandize the gang leader’s supremacy and intimidate younger members. It is extremely easy for urban criminals to acquire fighting dogs. They buy fighting dogs for a few hundred dollars or more commonly, they breed their own or steal them.

[MissB]

44. All I can do is laugh.

Bitterly, but at least I can laugh.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. Here I thought it originated in ancient Rome

See how undereducated I am, I thought it was leftover from the ancient Coliseum rituals.

Then there's the silly fact that exist in Afghanistan, Japan, Latin America, North America, Pakistan, Russia, United Kingdom and the United States. Yet hip hop isn't predominate in all those cultures.

If it weren't for wingnuts I'd be so confused. :crazy:

[leftyladyfrommo]

53. Dogfighting is a horrific. Its not something to laugh about.

And you need to quit rationalizing it.

Its been around for ever. Just like all bloodsport.

But is has gotten a zillion times worse and more organized with the onslaught of the urban gang bangers. And that whole ultra violent culture. Drugs, prostitution, violence.

It really isn't funny.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

65. It's been a huge problem in the south for a very long time

It's been an organized, well hidden big money sponsored lust for blood for decades. It also spread to the rest of the US before the onset of urban gangs. The more money it has backing it the more the it's grown. There are doctors. lawyers and even judges that have been arrested in sting operations involving blood lust sports. Cockfighting is another one that's been around forever but it hasn't been as confined to the south in our recent history. However, it too is much more predominate than you would realize.

I find all such violence to be a sick perversion and was not laughing about it. What I was doing was showing my disgust at the way people will turn a blind eye to something so vile until they think it's represented by a demographic they're willing to dislike.

[leftyladyfrommo]

123. Thanks. I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

I have absolutely no sense of humor when it comes to dogfighting - or any bloodsport.

I absolutely hate it to my very core.

[RubyDuby in GA]

52. I wonder what said "wingnut idiot bitch" would say about this:

May 5, 2005: The Georgia Bureau of Investigation shut down the Sawmill Game Club in Blue Ridge, where crowds of up to 300 spectators regularly gathered. Among those arrested was the town mayor, who now faces criminal charges of gambling.

http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/recent_activities/east_tennessee_cockfighters.html

This was only cockfighting, not dogfighting - but seriously, both are despicable.

I guess since this was an old white guy, it would just be him acting on his heritage???

[hatrack]

54. Didn't you hear? Hip-hop also caused the fall of Rome, the Black Death and the Lisbon Earthquake.

It also made Snidely Whiplash tie Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm to railroad tracks while fiendishly twirling his mustache!

:eyes:

[Philosoraptor]

55. We need to fight hip hop OVER THERE so we don't gots to over here.

[frylock]

106. nice!

:spray:

[MNDemNY]

61. And 9-11????

[marmar]

57. And we thought Calvin Broadus chose the name "Snoop Doggy Dog".....

just because it was catchy.....

What blog was it, the Eva (Braun) Blog? :crazy:

[MADem]

78. I thought it had to do with "sniffin around" --as dogs will do...! nt

[flvegan]

66. Oh, FFS, it's thug subculture right now.

All these new-found experts with their soundbytes because of Michael Vick. Dogfighting has been around forever, these days it's glorified by thuggery. Rap, southern, redneck, ghetto...whatever someone wants to say it's from, they're idiots. It's part of the subculture of any "group" of people. I've seen middle class white kids acting tough, this n that about pit bulls.

Truth be told, none of these folks know nor have seen shit. I run a rescue for abused animals, many of which are taken from assholes wanting to fight them. I've helped with the local animal control against dogfighting, and seen some nasty people do horrible things. However, for pure brutality, violence and evil, these oh-so-horrified people would peel their own skin off if they saw what's happening in Russia. Big gamedogs here might be 50, 60, 70 lbs. The Presas, Filas and Canes they use in Central/South America to fight are 100 easy. However, the Vollkodavs/Ovcharkas that they're using in Russia can be 200 lbs of sheer brutality. Unlike Tosa (Japanese fighting dogs of that size) these dogs are taught bloodlust. It's almost like they actually feel hate.

Think that's from hip hop? Think that's from rednecks?

[H2O Man]

68. It's true.

I endorse the "she-bop-a-lu-bop" culture. You should, too.

[Philosoraptor]

70. A wop bob a loo bop, a bop bam boom!

Black music will destroy the world I tell ya!!!111

[H2O Man]

74. "Psycho-politicians

are using the Beatle music ... to hypnotize American youth and prepare them for future submission to subversive control .... a systematic plan geared to making a generation of American youth mentally ill and emotionally unstable." -- Rev. David Noebel; "Communism, Hypnotism, and the Beatles"

And to think Ed Sullivan was dupped by "fellow travelers"!

[IndianaJones]

69. the medias portrayal and coverage of black athletes is an acceptable form of racism...

in our country.

[RamboLiberal]

79. Excuse me - there's still a small bit of racism in sports

journalism - mostly in the idiot "wannabe" radio sports talk hosts - but one can't deny there's been a proliferation of athletes involved in crime in the last decade. Just cause some of the criminals are black doesn't make it racist. I say owners need to police their own sport and get rid of the bad ones. Cut their contracts and refuse to hire them to another team just because they have a good arm, can run fast, hit hard, etc but a world of trouble to the team.

[tjwash]

71. Hey...congrats hip hoppers.

Glad to see hip-hop is finally receiving it's props. About time too. Until recently, metal was considered the root of all things bad. Before that it was acid rock, and before that Elvis and Rock and Roll in general was the root of all evil.

You have finally arrived in mainstream pop culture when your art form has been blamed for starting the decline of western civilization.

All the way to the bank. You can't buy the advertising that that statement has probably generated.

[MADem]

81. Of course, the prime consumers of hiphop are fat white teens in oversized clothing

and idiotic hats turned backwards, and fake jewelry around their necks...that "bling" thing.

Will they grow up to be dogfighting fools, do we suppose?

[UTUSN]

80. Yaas, O'LOOFAH floated that spin yesterday. He has never seen a part

of ethnic cultures that are not EVIL, "evil" meaning "contrary to the power of old, White, males."

[devilgrrl]

83. What about hip-hop being blamed for Don Imus's tasteless comments?

You should read some of these comments in response to the NAACP's burial of the "N" word. http://buffalonews.typepad.com/inside_the_news/2007/07/does-burial-mea.html#comments

It's fucking 1860 all over again. :crazy:

[devilgrrl]

84. Hip-hop is responsible for Global Warming - didn't you hear?

:sarcasm:

[Forkboy]

87. No,but it is responsible for sunburns on the upper ass of suburban white kids.

:)

And hey,thanks for the KO links yesterday! :hi:

[Philosoraptor]

89. Please help find a cure for suburban white kid upper ass sunburn.

[CatWoman]

110. *smooch*

anytime, Doll

:hi:

[sakabatou]

92. I listen to hip-hop

Well, mostly the beats the go with hip-hop really. ^_^ So I guess I'm not affected.

[ContraBass Black]

94. Did you know that there are video games with Hip-Hop in them?

Hide the children!

[JacquesMolay]

96. I think Hip-Hop's idiocy has become a destructive social force...

... and I don't buy that s*** about gansta 'reflecting the world around it'. I think it's helping to make that world through it's dissemination. But I don't think that it has anything to do with a damn backyard dogfight.

[MisterP]

97. hate to think what the Radetzky march would do

[jeffrey_X]

100. Jason Whitlock said the exact same thing on O'Leilly last night.

eom

[slackmaster]

104. Michael Vick is just a sadistic dumbass who is worth $130 million

:nuke:

[sandnsea]

105. Mine is exploding reading this thread

Illegals and hip hop - the cause of all ills in the world I guess. Never blame a white man.

I don't even know what to say.

[idgiehkt]

118. Yeah, a white man like this guy

on the right, Floyd Boudreaux, one of the country's most famous fighters and breeders of game dogs

finally busted in 2005 at the age of 70
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news_and_events/dog_fighting_kingpin_toppled_in_louisiana_raid.html

[sandnsea]

120. You're one of them reality types

Ain't ya? Always bringing truth to a good old fashioned bigot bash. No fun at all. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. Conservative culture is responsible for racism.

But we all already knew that.

[Rosie1223]

109. At least they're not blaming Clinton,

yet.

[chaska]

111. I'm so sick of liberals that excuse bad behavior based solely of minority status. Hang this fucker!

Just because he's a minority is no excuse. That lowlife son of a bitch deserves the same fate that he inflicted on his dogs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Ah, a call for lynching of a black man.

Sans trial.

How quaint.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

115. Sometimes this place amazes me.

It's no wonder violence is so prevalent in this country, especially when you see the bloodlust of some DUer's who should be above that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. As somebody once pointed out...

there are an awful lot of very mentally unstable people in GD.

[idgiehkt]

119. the supposition alone is racist.

Dog fighting associated with 'hip-hop culture' is a recent development. I wonder what these folks say when it's pointed out that dogs are fought in the middle east in muslim-ruled countries, in Russia, in Turkey, in South America, just about damn near everywhere, and have been for centuries.

[frogcycle]

121. well it is a stupid simplification, but

Elaine Boozler subbed for Stephanie Miller yesterday and devoted a lot of time to the topic in general and Vick in particular.

Turns out EB is quite an activist in the area.

One point she made was that in fact, rappers DO glorify dogfighting.

Just as mysogeny did not start with rappers calling women "ho's" this brutal sociopathic behavior did not start with hiphop. But they DO add to the legitimization of it in the minds of a subculture.

Much like the running theme of "don't be a snitch," the promotion of antisocial behavior seems to be growing. Back in the day cries for "black power" and "say it loud, I'm black and proud" were constructive; this shit is destructive.

[SoCalDem]

122. The "in-your-face" macho society of our WHOLE culture is to blame

People have lost the capacity to be gentle and friendly.. to be less than hyper-aggressive is somehow wimpy these days..and unworthy of acceptance :cry:

[leftyladyfrommo]

126. Cheney probably goes to dogfights. Now, I don't know that

for a fact. But if he will go somewhere and blast farmed raised and just released birds out of the sky then he probably would like dogfighting.

[peekaloo]

124. Conservative culture is responsible for cock fighting!

look at 'em tear it up over Clenis!

[KG]

125. after 'wingnut', 'idiot bitch' is redundant...

:hi:

[mzmolly]

127. See my post here Catwoman:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1388619&mesg_id=1393792

A bit of history: While animal fighting occurs almost everywhere in the world, dog fighting and fighting dogs have historically been associated with the United Kingdom. The baiting of bulls by dogs was even required by law. Mr. Perkins in his treatise of Cases of Conscience (published 1632) states: "The baiting of the bear, and cockfights, are no meet recreations. The baiting of the bull hath its use, and therefore it is commanded by civil authority; and so have not these.

Further:DOG FIGHTING:

AN HISTORICAL NOTE

The modern ‘sport’ of dog fighting has its origins in the Coliseum combats of ancient Rome. Emperor Lucullus was reputedly the first to initiate the practice of pitting dogs against other animals: a group of dogs would be thrown into the Coliseum, doomed to be trampled to death by wild elephants.

Following the fall of Rome, the practice of fighting dogs made its reappearance in medieval England. Beginning in at least the 12th Century, such practices as bull and bear baiting, in addition to mortal combats between dogs and lions or elephants, became increasingly popular. In Elizabethan London, on the south banks of the Thames, a popular attraction was the Bear Gardens – an attraction that even Queen Elizabeth graced. Indeed, royal approval of bear baiting included the appointment of an official ‘Master of the Bears and Dogs.’

By the middle of the 17th Century, the popularity in England of baiting sports with at least the nobility had declined rather dramatically; by 1835, humane groups succeeded in outlawing all baiting sports in an act of Parliament known as the Humane Act of 1835.

The growing costliness and scarcity of bears and bulls in the 1700s for baiting purposes had encouraged the practice of fighting dogs against each other for sporting exhibition purposes. The passage of the Humane Act of 1835 however provided the chief incentive for the growth of dog fighting: with the baiting of larger animals illegal, dog fighting became the primary alternative for animal fighting fanciers.

LINK for second quote: http://www.peoriahs.org/dogfighthistory.htm

Sorry, can't blame hip hop.

[Odin2005]

131. Is it just me or does attacking hip-hop seem to be the latest way of trashing African-Americans?

It's like every time some new cultural thing (Jazz, the form of R&B that evolved into Rock, and now Hip-Hop) emerges from the African-American community it gets blamed for causing moral decline and the downfall of Western Civilization.

[Party Line]

132. Hip-Hop contributes to society.

Gangsta rap hurts society. So many of my fellow democrats seem bent on cannibalising each other in this thread.

Or is it just those third party agitators?

[Norrin Radd]

133. Scapegoating is America's favorite pastime. n/t

[Bombtrack]

134. I remember those guys in the Jack London novels were huge fans of the Ying-Yang Twins