LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:47 PM
Original message |
John Dean just said the House HAS TO go forward with Inherent Contempt proceedings |
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He thinks that the White House will start to take notice if the House actually goes through with that.
Just said it on Randi's show.
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GOTV
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message |
1. I don't see what other option is open to congress n/t |
truebrit71
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
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...it's time to draw the line in the sand...
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TahitiNut
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
10. Incumbent Dems will lose a lot of votes if they don't. |
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Mine might be one of them.
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Tansy_Gold
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
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What's the sense in voting at all, if the people you elect then elect to do nothing that you want them to do -- and everything that you don't want them to do?
Tansy Gold
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TahitiNut
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
34. Indeed. When a member of the NIXON WHITE HOUSE shows better sense than Dems in Congress ... |
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... then what the HELL are they doing there?? :banghead: :banghead:
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leftchick
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
54. mine will be one of them |
nadinbrzezinski
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Fri Jul-20-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
70. Yep, they already lost the votes |
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unless they take CONGRETE ACTION
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More Than A Feeling
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Does the House know that? |
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Are they actually aware of the Inherent Contempt procedure, and do they understand why that's the only option if Congress wants to keep its institutional power?
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Junkdrawer
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. They know...they don't want US to know... |
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They're banking on a sweep in 2008 IF THEY DO NOTHING.
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
35. as paul Craig Roberts said yesterday |
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that is betting on an unlikely future
either ther won't BE an election, or it will come on the heels of another, bigger 9/11 with a big "I told you so, but you listened to those evil democrats" speech
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leftchick
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
50. yes, The Do Nothing Congress |
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didn't we just suffer through many years of that?
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KAT119
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
63. It seems the last Congress did plenty, 21/2 wars, end of America.... |
leftchick
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Fri Jul-20-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #63 |
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Democratic help. In addition to Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran I am particularly peeved by the Patriot act and these two.... Which would never have happened without Help from the complicit Democrats.
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SammyWinstonJack
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
6. If they aren't aware, we are in deep doo doo, don't you think? |
frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
38. yeah, as if they'd be unaware of the contents |
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of the document they are sworn to uphold...
oh, wait...
but seriously, despite there being some total incompetents, they don't need us to point out the possibilities - just need us to urge them on
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
11. yes the House Judiciary is aware of it |
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One member said Conyers is considering it.
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More Than A Feeling
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
13. Oh, good, that's a little bit of relief. |
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Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 02:57 PM by Heaven and Earth
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me b zola
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Fri Jul-20-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
71. Although I have immense respect for Rep Conyers... |
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...wasn't the time to consider it before the threat was made to use it?
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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I forget who it was, but saw an interview the other day wherein the interviewer brought it up and the congresscritter said something like, "oh, yeah, you're right, I am aware of that but need to need to go back and look in to that further"
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Doremus
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Fri Jul-20-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
72. Funny you should ask. I just talked to my brother in Phoenix who just talked |
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to an aide in his Congresscritter's office about this very subject.
According to this aide, they're not sure whether they'll go for inherent contempt because, quote, it's never been used before. My bro pointed out that indeed it had, in the 30s, for the Postmaster General. Their reply? "We aren't sure that involved the Executive Branch."
>thud<
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Benhurst
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:50 PM
Response to Original message |
depakid
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:50 PM
Response to Original message |
7. From what we've seen these past 7 years- they don't HAVE TO do anything |
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except enable and legitimize whatever the far right tosses at them....
So, while one can hope- I sure won't be expecting much of a response (much less results).
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pberq
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message |
8. If not, then they given up their power and we no longer have a democracy |
elehhhhna
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
52. their power? It's OUR POWER. Traitors, all. |
orleans
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message |
9. did you hear randi talking to the freshman senator steve cohen |
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yesterday? she was surprised to hear that the judiciary had no plans on what move to make next after harriet stood them up for their wednesday deadline two days ago.
anyway, cohen is on the judiciary randi was talking to him about inherent contempt last friday and yesterday as well.
if they're gonna do something that is the only option the house has.
bruce fein is up in randi's second hour! he wants bush & cheney impeached. he was on the bill moyers journal last friday and the whole show was on impeachment!
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
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Randi was almost giving him orders. :rofl:
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NewJeffCT
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
14. Isn't Fein a conservative? |
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Or, am I thinking of somebody else?
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blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
20. He was one of the proime architects of the impeachment of Clinton. |
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Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 03:15 PM by blondeatlast
He was on Bill Moyers' excellent program on impeachment last Friday night. He made the strongest case for impeachment I've seen or heard yet.
If you haven't seen it, check out the video forum It is eexceptionally good.
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grasswire
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
21. Fein is a conservative |
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He wrote the articles of impeachment against Bill Clinton. He is a honcho in the Federalist Society. He is burning with anxiety to impeach George. It's really something.
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
24. Fein is up next on the Randi Rhodes show |
NewJeffCT
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
NewJeffCT
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Fri Jul-20-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message |
15. I'd love to see what Harriet's reaction would be |
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If the Sergeant-at-Arms from the House shows up at her door with handcuffs...
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ayeshahaqqiqa
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
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Mace of the Congress of the United States
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UTUSN
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message |
16. I always like what DEAN says, but has ANYthing he says ever happened? n/t |
BuyingThyme
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:02 PM
Response to Original message |
17. Looks like the Pukes need to get another blonde shill to interview Pelosi. |
IChing
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message |
22. One of the problems with iherent contempt is the summer recess |
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Miers, if arrested, would have to be released when they go on recess.
I heard that, I think on Keith.
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Disturbed
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
23. The House can have J. Bolton & H. Meirs arrested in Sept. |
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Let them stew on the prospect for a month.
Impeach Gonzo in Sept.
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IChing
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
29. Maybe that is why they are holding off |
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until September and we haven't heard anything.
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
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Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 03:28 PM by frogcycle
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kestrel91316
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
46. You may be onto something...... |
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I sure hope. I can't believe that they would just give this crap a pass.......
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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he said they could be in the Capitol basement on bread and water during the recess - it expires when the session ends
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IChing
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
41. Well that sounds good to me and then it doesn't |
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I like the bread and water part, but then I don't like them not acting on it.
I don't know the legal implications of this, is there a good link on the rules and legal backgrounds?
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
IChing
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
bvar22
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Fri Jul-20-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
73. Summer recess is NOT mandatory. |
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Reid (and Pelosi?)has threatened to keep Congress technically In Session through the Summer recess period by manning Congress with a Democratic skeleton crew. This was proposed in order to prevent bush* from any more damaging Recess Appointments. Hopefully, this is NOT just another empty threat from those without spines.
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blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:25 PM
Response to Original message |
28. "First time in my life, I'm scared of our government." |
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Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 03:25 PM by blondeatlast
Me too.
(Fein, not Dean)
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Junkdrawer
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message |
32. MORE INFO ON INHERENT CONTEMPT POWERS HERE: |
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1. Congressional inherent contempt powers have the Supreme Court stamp of approval.
Bush keeps flipping the bird to Congress, which responds by trying to bend over backwards with more concessions. The Supreme Court has recognized that Congressional contempt powers are an important tool to prevent Congress from being "exposed to every indignity and interruption that rudeness, caprice, or even conspiracy, may meditate against it." Congress does not need to be rendered feckless by Bush. It just needs to stand up and use the powers that the constitution provides to prevent Congress from being trampled by the executive branch.
The US Supreme Court has recognized in at least two cases that inherent contempt power is a necessary power to enforce congressional investigative powers. In inherent contempt proceedings, the House or Senate Sergeant-At-Arms arrests the contemnor and brings him/her before the House or Senate, where there is a trial and the person can be imprisoned until he/she agrees to comply but not beyond the adjournment of a session of the Congress. Congress used inherent contempt powers over 85 times during 1795-1934. This power has not been used (pdf file) by either chamber in over 70 years because it was considered "too cumbersome and time consuming to hold contempt trials at the bar of the offended chamber" and the process was deemed ineffective "because punishment can not extend beyond Congress’s adjournment date."
However, inherent contempt trials is exactly what the Democrats need to conduct in order to publicly reveal the witnesses who refuse to testify and why, and the evidence that is being withheld from Congress. Will any TV channel not be covering these trials? It is one thing to read a newspaper article that Rove refuses to testify under oath before Congress. How about the public reaction to the Sergeant-At-Arms hauling Rove before the bar for a trial on why he does not comply with subpoenas? If found guilty, then Congress can send Rove to jail. If Congress can just muster the courage to bring one key uncooperative witness before its bar on trial, it will enhance its ability to obtain compliance from the WH with other witnesses and evidence. If not, move on to key witness No. 2. Even if the WH refuses to comply, it is real people, not Bush or Cheney, who will have to face the music. Some of these witnesses may be less likely to follow Bush's instructions when they see that they can be arrested, hauled into trial and imprisoned.
The Supreme Court has affirmed Congressional power to frog-march witnesses before the bar of Congress. In McGrain v. Daugherty, a recusant witness (the AG's brother) refused to comply with issued subpoenas. The Senate issued a warrant authorizing its sergeant at arms to take custody of the witness and bring him before the bar of the Senate to answer questions. The deputy sergeant at arms went to Cincinnati, Ohio to pick up the uncooperative witness to place him in custody. The witness objected by filing habeas corpus, but the Supreme Court upheld Congressional legal authority to use its own process to compel persons to appear and testify on issues needed to enable Congress to exercise its Constitutional legislative function.
Another case provides a glimpse into the trial. Congress used its inherent contempt power against the Postmaster-General, who also filed habeas corpus to overturn his arrest, but the Supreme Court held that Congress had acted constitutionally and denied the petition in Jurney v. MacCracken (1945). The Senate held a one-week trial presided over by the Vice President, who acted as Senate President, and he was found guilty and sentenced to 10 days imprisonment.
Jurney v. MacCracken is also instructive for those Bush officials who would like to destroy incriminating evidence. In this case, MacCracken was arrested and brought to the Senate bar to explain why he should not be punished for contempt for the destruction and removal of files after being served with a subpoena. The sole issue was whether the Senate had power to arrest and punish him for destroying evidence or permitting others to review and remove or destroy files. Essentially he argued that since he destroyed the materials, Congress could not punish him for a past contempt, which the Supreme Court rejected.
Jurney v. MacCracken also shows how witnesses may react to Congress flexing its constitutional muscles. After testifying one day before the Senate, and realizing the gravity of the situation, the post office sent inspectors to one man's office to search the "sacks of waste papers" to collect the destroyed papers by pasting torn up pieces of paper together. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/9/20378/62042More Here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/12/192250/035http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/12/17271/9047
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lonestarnot
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
36. Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. Postmaster in the slammer. Heh. |
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Wonder if they got everything taped back together.
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TahitiNut
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
37. "The witness objected by filing habeas corpus ..." |
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Well, good luck with that nowadays, Harriet. :rofl: :rofl:
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:29 PM
Response to Original message |
33. what do they have to hide? |
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it becomes ever more evident that this is far beyond politics. It is a coverup of crimes - crimes that would probably get them executed.
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blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message |
39. Fein up now--this should be good. |
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My mistake upthread, Fein is on now.
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
42. Congress has no understanding of the Constitution." Scary and true. |
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"No understanding of what they are up against."
WTF does it take??? :banghead:
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Disturbed
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
45. Since Impeachment is off the table Inherent Contempt is the |
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only remedy. It is obvious that the busholini Regime is blocking Investigations to cover up their crimes.
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blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
51. Fein is saying the independent counsel may be a better idea. nt |
LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:42 PM
Response to Original message |
43. Fein is saying the Congress does not know what power they have |
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Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 03:43 PM by LSK
Basically saying that Congress should grow a spine.
They should use the power of the purse more.
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
47. he's fricking wrong in this case |
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trying to get indy council and courts to act would be messier
they need to fire a shot across the bow RIGHT NOW
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
49. maybe he didnt read the WaPost this morning? |
frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
53. he doesn't understand the urgency n/t |
blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #53 |
55. Oh, I think he does; he just trusts the process more than we do. nt |
bdamomma
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message |
56. so what are our options here? |
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who can we call? our reps??
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #56 |
58. I'd say pressure Conyers with the inherent contempt proceedings |
bdamomma
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
61. thanks do you have his number handy? |
LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #61 |
frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #56 |
66. I think that's inadequate |
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what we need is massive visible protest
the congresscritters will react to that. We might have to go through a "Kent State" phase though
What we need is some charismatic non-politicians to start calling for sit-ins, sick-outs, marches, whatever. Like Farrakhan's(sp?) "million man march"
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #66 |
67. how do you get that going? |
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We've had big protests regarding the war before and nothing really happened (and hardly are reported).
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frogcycle
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message |
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I've been trying to dial in all afternoon, and if I got on i was going to give DU and all who are now listening a big shout out
steady busy signal though
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LSK
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #57 |
59. thanks, hope you get through! |
blondeatlast
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #57 |
60. Good luck, m'friend. I'' be in the car soon but I'll listen for you! nt |
Nunyabiz
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Fri Jul-20-07 03:57 PM
Response to Original message |
62. Wanna bet the Demspinelesscrats roll over and piss on themselves |
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and do absolutely nothing...They may as well go home and start duct taping their windows and get ready for the next false flag attack because they aren't doing anything in Congress but being made to look ridiculous. They have the power to do what MUST be done, problem is there is not a single ball between them all.
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bdamomma
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Fri Jul-20-07 04:06 PM
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64. I just called Conyers office and left a message |
ThomWV
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Fri Jul-20-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message |
69. One wonders if Bush will care as the minions get hauled off to jail? |
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As long as they don't talk, what does he care?
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