So John Kerry doesn't believe in the "Innocent until proven guilty" clause?

[ecstatic]

I am SOOOO disappointed in Kerry! I logged on to DU and was outraged to see liberals/progressives/etc. calling Vick and his mother all sorts of names (i.e., savage/animal/etc). What's the deal? Can the man get a trial before the lynch squad comes in?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. John Kerry's grandstanding.

[blm]

56. Suspension is appropriate call for anyone arrested. And Kerry's always sided with

animal rights issues over the years, even as a lifetime hunter.

Why would anyone think this unusual, anyway? Why should Vick get special treatment and NOT be suspended?

[IChing]

2. If a teacher had a 18 count indictment on child abuse

Should he/her be suspended from teaching until the charges are addressed?
Not fired but suspended with pay?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. What if the teacher were indicted on, say, insurance fraud?

If Michael Vick worked with dogs, maybe your analogy would be more apt.

[Toots]

5. How about if the teacher were indicted for dog fighting

What if the teacher's property had been searched and over a hundred dogs were found chained up and still more found dead and buried. Should the teacher be allowed to keep on teaching until a trial?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. How about if they searched somebody else's house...

and didn't find any dead dogs?

[IChing]

10. No, they would be suspended in most if not all felony indictments

with pay until the case went to court.

My point was is that they wouldn't be fired but they would be suspended.

[1monster]

17. No, in most school districts, the teacher would be suspended pending a

School Board investigation. Then, after that investigation, the teacher would most likely be fired. Before the trial.

[IChing]

23. I agree with you....

Kerry asked for a suspension not a firing.

[Peregrine Took]

3. I'm shocked by all these Vick defenders here. Really shocked. Is it the foot

ball connection? Atlanta residents? Dog haters?

[AZBlue]

7. I don't know what the reason is, but I'm OUTRAGED by it.

And completely disgusted.

[ecstatic]

12. I'm a defender of the constitution

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

34. The Constitution doesn't say people can't have opinions on guilt. For that matter, the presumption

of innocence isn't even called out explicitly in the Constitution, though it is implied.

[jakefrep]

54. Who's defending him?

Since when does "presuming innocence" equal "defending animal abuse"?

Vick is accused of what can only be described as abhorrent behavior. If he's convicted, his employers and the justice system can do pretty much whatever they want to him. That's fine by me. Just don't expect me (or the NFL, or Nike, or whoever) to join the lynch mob before he's actually convicted.

Apparently no one has learned from the Duke Lacrosse fiasco.

[enki23]

6. jesus, how often does it have to be said...

"Innocent until proven guilty" does not f**king apply to the opinions of private citizens. Our beloved president hasn't been "proven guilty" of any serious crimes either, but for some reason I feel perfectly at ease calling him a criminal jackass nonetheless. And, in fact, I would bet no one here would counter with the idiotic, completely misapplied statement "he's innocent until proven guilty."

Michael Vick, barring some bizarre setup, is a criminal asshole, and I hope he rots in prison for a very long time.

And for the record, the phrase also doesn't apply to the internal decisions of the private governing body of the NFL.

[ecstatic]

14. But Kerry is calling for his suspension

Kerry obviously has way too much time on his hands and needs to get to work on pressing national issues

[bicentennial_baby]

15. I think Senator Kerry can multitask

:eyes:

[enki23]

16. John Kerry is a private citizen. What part of that don't you understand?

You have every right to hold, and voice your opinion about whether John Kerry *should* issue a statement about the despicable Mr Vick. This, however, has nothing to do with "innocent until proven guilty."

[RB TexLa]

24. Shit! I thought he won reelection to the Senate! When did this happen????

[enki23]

57. still a private citizen in this regard. not part of the criminal justice system.

.

[Johonny]

18. I'm with you

I think it is extremely dangerous to support denying a person of his occupation based on indictments completely unrelated to their work function. (besides many fans perhaps rooting a little more to him sacked over and over again next season).

Sure in the court of public opinion people may feel and say what they choose. I’m all for calling out his sponsors. Celebrity endorsements are a perk of fame and popular opinion. Opinion gives them and opinion may take them away. However to support his denial of work against the rules set up between his employer and his Union… wow how unliberal like is all I got to say.

[emulatorloo]

44. Is this a joke -- Kerry's been plenty busy. . .EOM

[Inuca]

46. Suspension, not decapitation

As for the too much time comment, have you followed the news lately?

[northzax]

8. legally, he is innocent until proven guilty

I ain't the legal system. the Legal system insists on "beyond a reasonable doubt" when I judge people it is by "the preponderance of the evidence" I have no doubt that Mike Vick has been at the very least willfully able to turn a blind eye to dogfighting going on at his property, and most likely, has been an active participant. I don't need a trial to see that.

[AZBlue]

11. And I am SOOOO disappointed in people who want to defend dog fighting!

BTW, Kerry is calling for him to be suspended - like any other athlete caught up in a legal mess of this magnitude.

So, what's the deal with thinking dog fighting is ok?? I think that's really the issue you should be thinking about and looking at yourself.

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. ...

:thumbsup:

[Johonny]

19. ?

Name them. Al most all leagues rules require actual conviction before suspension. It's unclear how Vick fits into the NFLs new guidelines because they have only been out less than a year. The only thing close to Vicks case is Pacman Jones and he is facing charges from multiple cases, where as Vick until now has not had problems in his 6 years in the league. Vick closest case is Tony Martin. Funny enough Martin ws found not guilty. Go figure.

It's odd this season people will enjoy watching convicted wife beaters, drunk drivers, drug trafficers, drug abusers... but a man only indicted for a crime he can't play. Is it so much to ask for conviction. You only got to wait a little while. Once he's found guilty I think you'll find very, very little support of him.

[Kagemusha]

20. Did they suspend Ray Lewis before legal proceedings reached a conclusion?

No, they did not, and he was accused of covering for a member of his entourage who'd killed some poor soul.

Being caught up in a legal mess has never been the standard. Whether you agree with Kerry or not, it's silly to argue that other athletes have been routinely suspended for being accused of legal wrongdoing. It is not routine whatsoever, whether justified or not.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. But wasn't that prior to the newer Morals and Standards Policy?

[Kagemusha]

26. What, you think that's legal? Suspending without any firm evidence of wrongdoing?

It's a grand jury indictment. Grand jury = secret evidence. The NFL suspending someone on that basis would be cause for a massive civil lawsuit, complete with accusations of racism.

[bicentennial_baby]

28. Pac-Man Jones was suspended, and he hasn't been convicted yet.

And he's African-American too.

[tired_old_fireman]

35. Pac Man Jones had ten police incidents.

I'm not sure it's a 100% equal comparison.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. I'm just saying that suspension prior to trial isn't unheard of

That being said, I understand that it's not a perfect comparison. :)

[Kagemusha]

39. Point taken.

There's just a big gap between not unheard of and 'as has always been the case' and so on.

But we'll see what happens. I'd love to see Vick suspended - I just don't think the NFL can get away with it.

[bicentennial_baby]

40. Well, I didn't say "as has always been the case",

As the Morals and Standards policy is rather new, since Goodell came in. Yes, we shall see. I hope he takes the leave of absence that's being encouraged. Best for everyone involved. :)

[Kagemusha]

38. He got told to stay the hell out of trouble, and most certainly got into more.

So, he was regarded as violating workplace policy to an unacceptable level and basically show disregard for the entire sport.

Pac Man may not have been convicted of anything, but the fact he had the police incidents was beyond dispute. To the complete contrary, whether Vick is complicit whatsoever in dogfighting is heavily in dispute (even though I personally believe it), and the NFL would be foolish to act on a basis other than proven facts. The point being, Jones wasn't suspended for being convicted of a crime at all; he was suspended for courting trouble beyond all reasonable behavior. The courting trouble may not have been a crime, but it was damaging to his employer and his employer was well within its rights to demand he not make the situation worse through conscious, affirmative behavior.

Even then I bet the union regards it as a stretch.

[mondo joe]

31. Suspension from work isn't a legal penalty. I don't see why a conviction is necessary.

:shrug:

[flvegan]

32. Legal? It's a JOB.

I'd damn sure expect my employer to suspend me if I was indicted for this shit.

[Kagemusha]

33. What part of secret evidence aren't people understanding here?

The NFL can't take the indictment as evidence. It's not the NFL's investigation, it's the FBI's or whoever's, and the evidence is sealed until it appears in a court of law.

Are you a member of a union, flvegan?

[flvegan]

45. No.

I'm not. And as I understand it, the NFL players' union sucks. Haven't they suspended others under indictment? Did they get sued? Suspend him with pay, and I don't see the problem. I won't rehash the "what if it was a teacher and a child-porn indictment" reply.

[Kagemusha]

47. Ahhh... okay, here's the thing, the NFL doesn't do 'suspend with pay'.

If it suspends a player, the player is disqualified from receiving pay for the portion of the season (or in the worst case, the entire season) for which the suspension occurs. This is for regular season games - preseason and postseason are separate things and matter very little or not at all for player pay. So there really isn't any suspension with pay like a teacher in a union would get.

That's why the league can't suspend without any legal cause; it'd be costing Vick an awful lot of money, directly, which he would then sue the league for, with the support of the player's union, plus punitive damages for jumping the gun.

[flvegan]

48. Hmmm...

I didn't know that (no suspension with pay).

I can understand from a monetary stance why they'd choose to not do that with him.

[bicentennial_baby]

50. Which is why they are pressuring him to take

a paid leave of absence instead :)

[Kagemusha]

52. Exactly.

It'd save the league a lot of pain later.

[Sanctified]

49. I don't think Dog Fighting is ok and I don't think someone should be punished

before they have been convicted. Plus do you know what type of legal hoops the NFL would have to go through to even try to suspend him, I am pretty sure the Union would fight this tooth and nail.

[RandomKoolzip]

21. By that logic, Bush ought to be immune from criticism too, right?

After all, he's not on trial yet, and yet we're allowed to say all sortsa nasty things about him.


Like an above poster stated, the opinions of private citizens are not equivalent to the ruling of a judge.

[SaveElmer]

25. "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" refers to court proceedings...

Doesn't preclude people from having an informed opinion ahead of that time. If one reads the indictment thee is little doubt Vick is guilty...and there is nothing wrong with expressing that opinion...

[Kagemusha]

27. Sure, people can have informed opinions. Because we can't suspend Vick.

The NFL, which can, is going to invite a whole can of trouble for itself if it does anything but wait and see.

Personally I suspect Vick's guilty as hell.

[SaveElmer]

29. In fact the NFL has suspended people before any court proceeding...

They are not required to wait if their investigation shows a violation of league rules...

My understanding is the NFL and the Union of puttin the screws to Vick to accept a leave of absence for the 2007 season...

[RB TexLa]

37. If the players union is they are going to be very quite about it

I don't think the other players/members will feel very reassured by that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. such crap! people hold up politicians as though they were not human

human beings form opinions. there is also extensive evidence that the guy was involved.

unless kerry is on the jury for this case, he doesnt have to have the innocent until proven guilty attitude.

[politicasista]

41. Another happy Friday at Slam Democrats Underground

Hope you find a PERFECT Democrat or PERFECT candidate.

[mondo joe]

42. Which "clause" are you talking about anyway?

[democratsin08]

43. the evidence seems overwhelming

only a sick pervert could do what vick is alleged to have done

[Jed Dilligan]

51. I'm no defender of dog-fighting

but the two things that outrage me are

A) this and all other cases of DUers calling for prisoner abuse

and

B) the way animal abuse cases seem to outweigh human abuse cases in our culture in general

I am a dog lover but I don't see how this is the most important crime for us to be outraged about/focused on.

I could give a crap about football or Atlanta btw--if either disappeared, I would barely notice.

[nini]

53. there are just some issues that piss people off and this is one of them

Let the courts decide the legalities but the court of public opinion is free to say what they want.

Besides the guy hasn't denied taking part in the fighting so fuck him.

[blm]

55. SUSPENSION IS appropriate - and the NORM for anyone arrested. Why should Vick

be treated differently?