Gays fleeing Poland by the thousands

[ck4829]

Polish gay rights groups claim thousands of homosexuals have fled the country to escape increasing persecution.

Robert Biedron, 27, the head of the Polish Foundation Against Homophobia, said that 'huge numbers' of Polish gays had left the country following the rise to power of the right-wing government. He said: 'It is incredible. The Polish gay community has just left because of the climate of fear and persecution.

'Most of the people I know are now in England because of the current political situation. Not for economic reasons, but because of the persecution of homosexuals going on here. It's impossible for gays to be themselves in Poland.'

He added: 'Around two million Poles have left the country seeking work and thousands of gays are among them. Many gays are approaching our foundation for help in emigrating to the UK.'

...

Poland's Roman Catholic right-wing government has openly homophobic members and Polish media recently announced that the Health Ministry had created a special committee responsible for 'curing' gays.

The Deputy Health Minister, Marek Grafowski, said that the ministry was also planning to identify how many people in Poland were gay and work out a set of behavioural guides to assist parents and teachers so that they can recognise any warning signs of potential 'gay behaviour'.

Polish police have also been compiling a database on gays and the gay community in Poland which, although illegal under EU law, is apparently being done as part of a police investigation into a bomb threat two years ago by a gay man. He had reportedly identified himself as a member of the gay community who was angry when a gay rights march was banned in Warsaw.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2115858,00.html

I've read up on this 'bomb threat', something seems odd about it, but I just can't place my finger on what it is.

[EFerrari]

1. What the hell is the matter with Poland? And before you nag at me

lol, part of my Heinz 57 is Polish.

:wtf:

[goodgd_yall]

22. I'm not nagging

being 1/4 Polish too. I always have some interest on what goes on there. I get the feeling all the good Poles were killed in the 40s or fled after the War. Now it's left with right-wing Catholics. Ecch!

[EFerrari]

30. I feel bad for the people who had to leave but worse

for the people who can't leave. I wonder if Amnesty International is on this.

[LeftishBrit]

75. Yes, Amnesty International is onto it.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=10290

It's a very serious problem.

[goodgd_yall]

101. Thanks for the link , Leftish. n/t

[KAT119]

45. Victor Ashe, GW's "special gay friend" & former college room-

mate, was appointed by * to be ambassador to Poland Dec. 2003. Kitty Kelley in her unauthorized book: The Family: The Story of the Bush dynasty has quite a bit to say re Sr. and Jr.'s connections w/ 'special friends", esp. Victor Ashe former openly gay Mayor of Knoxville, TN.
Who has co-habitated at the Texas ranch many times.

Just a side light to Poland, and why W. always wanted to 'remember Poland'.

www.dailykos.com/story/204/9/4/13036/20280

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385503245/abe1xorg-20

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Same with Germany

All the liberal Germans were driven out (mostly to here and S. America) in the 19th century. That's how it turned into Ann Coulter's dreamland, aka Nazi Germany.

I think liberalism in Poland might have died with its Jewry.

[goodgd_yall]

100. Yes, agreed

I think liberalism died with the extermination and exodus of Poland's Jews. And the few gentile liberals I'm sure met the same fate. The culture of Europe has never been the same, I'm sure.

[devilgrrl]

2. Yeah Poland is so free these days - I so want to live there!

:sarcasm:

[Akoto]

3. Wow. This may sound abrasive, but ...

I'd naturally expect better than this of any power, but I'd really expect more of Poland, as a country once occupied by another group interested in "cleansing." I guess they're swift to forget history, as well as the three million people who died on Polish soil because of how they were born.

[ck4829]

4. I don't think it's abrasive at all

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, and Poland has clearly forgotten.

[EFerrari]

5. Poland is history. It's a corridor where the West and the East

have been slugging it out for hundreds of years.

I'm so saddened to hear this news.

[Bluebear]

8. It's the Catholic church and their chokehold on the government. nt

[goodgd_yall]

24. The Polish hated the German occupation

but the Catholic Poles weren't thrilled with the Jews either. Sadly, I've heard there was quite a bit of cooperation with the Nazis in exposing Jews.

[rockymountaindem]

32. There was

I wrote a research paper on collaboration by Eastern Europeans with the implementation of the Holocaust. While Poland was not the worst collaborator (that title, IMHO, belongs to Lithuania), many Poles were more than happy to see the Germans destroy Poland's Jewish community. Many were also not sad to see the communists disappear behind the barbed wire, never to be seen again.

[goodgd_yall]

48. There was a time in the distant past

(the 11th to the 16th century) that Poland was considered one of the few (perhaps the only)European country that had laws protecting, or at the very least, tolerating Jews. I believe it was ultimately the Catholic Church that encouraged suspicion and fear, and ultimately hatred and persecution toward the Jews. The same influence, most likely, is what is driving the anti-gay policies.

[dorkulon]

88. I've read that there were virtually no Jews left in Poland

after the war, and even today. What a country! Maybe those jokes aren't so off the mark.

[LostinVA]

47. It's not surprising at all -- this is nothing new

More than a few Jews survived the concentration camps to return home and be murdered by their anti-semitic neighbors. Many partisan groups also refused to help their fellow citizens if they were Jews. This attitude has never changed for many people from then until now. Why should gays be treated better?

[EFerrari]

58. LinkTV ran a documentary about this one town that iirc was in Poland

that managed to expiate a pogrom. I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the town.

But it was very moving because somehow, this community managed to find a way to confront what it had done and to make reparations to survivors and their descendants -- all on their own, without pressure from any outside entity.

[goodgd_yall]

102. I remember another program from several year ago

Where the inhabitants of a Polish town, refused to talk about the War years and still to this day spoke ill of the Jews. I seem to remember one of them even said something like they deserved what happened to them. I think the discussion of Polish attitudes toward Jews is very much related to intolerance toward LGBT people since it seems to come from the same source: a fear-based and powerful religion.

[libnnc]

6. Scary. And things ain't much better in Russia either

What the hell has happened to that part of Europe?

[rockymountaindem]

7. What's happened?

Let's just say that hundreds of years of warfare and antagonism have left their mark.

[LordJFT]

15. you mean the governments still have problems even though the evil commies have been ousted? no way!

[gatorboy]

9. Why do you think Bush was always saying don't forget Poland?

[nam78_two]

10. That is scary-K&R.nt

[kevinbgoode]

11. The marriage of a fascist government with the Catholic Church

is like a double whammy of authoritarian rule. It doesn't surprise me at all some gays are leaving...hell, there are some who have left THIS country so they can live their life in peace.

[IChing]

28. Totally agree, the church is extremely powerful in Poland -PICTURE!!!!!

The polish pope death was celebrated by the pickles and georgie in this kiss.

[Irreverend IX]

42. Is that a real picture?

That is just too weird, but with Bush you never know...

[Jed Dilligan]

53. It's obviously photoshopped but

equally obvious is that Mr. and Mrs. * are kissing at some VIP funeral or other. Why not the Pope's? It's about as tacky as any of the other possibilities.

[Midlodemocrat]

86. Actually, Catholics routinely kiss their loved ones during

the 'Sign of Peace', so it isn't that unlikely.

Can't believe I just stood up for that POS, though. See what you made me do? :rofl:

[IChing]

108. Bullshit they are only ones that did it. n/t

[IChing]

107. No it wasn't and it was shown in Europe on Tv

IT WAS NOT PHOTOSHOPPED

THESE FUCKERS NEVER KISS IN PUBLIC.,,,,,,,unless they are trying to say something to their public.

NOW HERE IS ANOTHER ONE
AT THE FUNERAL FOR THE THE ONES THAT DIE AT 911 at the national cathedral

[Toasterlad]

35. And As Bad As We Have It Here, It's a Thousand Times Worse Over There.

We should ALL move to Canada. We'll make it the most fabulous country on Earth!

[lostinacause]

40. Canada is already the most fabulous country on Earth!

[bonito]

12. Sounds like the Polish government is insecure

A Sexual identity problem within the ruling powers.

[Bluebear]

13. I would love to offer them asylum here, but couldn't in good conscience suggest it! nt

[karlrschneider]

14. Hardly surprising for a place where 1492 and 1776 are

adjoining rooms at the Warsaw Hilton...


:eyes:

[tyedyeto]

16. Nothing 'odd' about it.....

the Christian Coalition has invaded Poland.

[karlrschneider]

17. Not only there...much of the western part of the old USSR too.

:grr:

[Elspeth]

18. Is it the Christian Coalition or the Catholic Church?

The Church has been incredibly powerful in Poland.

[tyedyeto]

19. Could be the Catholic Church

but with the rise of Christion Conservatives and/or conservatives of any of the major religions these days, any one of them could be the catalyst.

[Bluebear]

20. Jim and Tammy Faye were active in Poland? nt

[tyedyeto]

23. Sorry but I was thinking of another post and edited my previous one.

Got confused for a moment.

Hey! I'm almost a Senior and had a 'senior moment'. LOL

[goodgd_yall]

21. A kinder, gentler holocaust? n/t

[IChing]

25. Now the Catholic church has so much power in Poland

sorry catholics but that is true.

[EFerrari]

31. Really? Is that what this is? I'm totally out of the loop here.

[Selatius]

39. Polish people are very devout Catholics, sort of a product of secular Soviet domination.

Pope John Paul II is credited with helping to loosen the grip of Soviet power over Poland by encouraging indigenous Catholics to keep pushing. He is very much revered in Poland, as well as the Catholic Church in general.

[EFerrari]

43. Liberation theology? But the Vatican didn't really back that

did it? Gosh, I'm way more lapsed than I even knew.

But, gone for good in protest of Church policy toward gays in particular.

[Selatius]

51. Paul II was never impressed with Liberation Theology

He only encouraged underground churches in Poland and defiance against the Kremlin. He would never have supported a doctrine nothing short of Christian Socialism that automatically conflicted with the vast wealth and size of the Catholic power structure, a doctrine that naturally called for the distribution of church wealth for the benefit of all to the expense of the hierarchy.

Those who follow Liberation Theology are socialists mainly because they felt the teachings of Jesus naturally led to socialism where the poor are cared for and naturally led to the questioning of earthly authority in the name of God.

[EFerrari]

57. Sure and the Church is arguably the first modern multinational. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

26. Poland is in utter Xaos...

There was a mega meting of Amerikastan Religious Zealots and the Polish Government. My German friend has told me several issues regarding Poland but right now I cant remember enough detail to pass the intel on.

There is a band from Poland that I listen to called BEHEMOTH, from various news articles with them, its clear that their country is so bad that they are almost ashamed to say they are from Poland. The shit is bad when a black/death metal band has to resort to being embarrassed about where they are from.

[Kurovski]

27. K&R. (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Great. Chalk up another victory for the Vatican. nt

[Gregorian]

33. Homophobia may very well have put Bush in the White House.

Remember in 1994 when Ann Richards was accused of being a lesbian because she was hiring gay staff members. She lost to Bush who went on to become the governor of Texas.

[Exultant Democracy]

37. I have a close friend who worked for her in that election, it haunts him.

[Toasterlad]

34. Who's Going to Tell Them Not to Put Screen Doors On Their Submarines Anymore?

Slick move driving all the smart people out, Poland. :eyes:

[lostinacause]

41. What is this supposed to mean?

I may be misinterpreting your words but it seems like it has the same prejudice that most people here are against.

[DarkTirade]

36. Huh. Go figure.

The side of my family that has the highest percentage of nonstraight vs. straight family members in it is the side with polish ancestry.
And it was damn good timing when they left too, since that's also the jewish part of my family(I don't know exactly when, but it was sometime in the early 1900s). If they'd stayed another decade or two, well, then that side of my family probably wouldn't exist anymore.
To add to the irony though, they moved to South Africa... so by moving, they missed out on being opressed and moved to a place where they were the ones in charge and another nationality was being opressed.

[rockymountaindem]

44. Just because you have Jewish family from Poland doesn't mean they're Polish

Poles have increasingly (since the partition of 1795) come to include Catholicism as a key part of their national identity. Poles are an ethnic group, as are Jews. Just because your Jewish ancestors came from Poland doesn't mean they are Poles. Mine sure weren't.

[DarkTirade]

55. Yes, but they were still citizens of that country.

At least up until a decade or two before WWII.

[entanglement]

38. The catholic church isn't the only guilty party

There has been a dramatic rise in far-right (neo-Nazi) movements in Russia and many countries of Eastern Europe - these groups are responsible for increased violence against racial / sexual minorities and an atmosphere of intimidation.

[goodgd_yall]

103. True

It's hard to say if the Catholic Church had influence over their beliefs; it could likely be it didn't. If one is really paying attention and has a good parish priest, you would be getting just the opposite message: to love one another and follow the example of Jesus Christ.

[sarcasmo]

46. Kick!

[mod mom]

49. :( international assault on reason.

[insleeforprez]

50. One of Bush's only friends...

That would be the President of Poland, Lech Kaczyński.

[Madspirit]

54. How the Hell

How the hell did I not see this in time to recommend it. Sorry about that. I can kick.

Lee

[bobbolink]

56. Why will England accept gay Polish immigrants, but not poor USian ones?

I really don't get this.

Why are the lives of poor people STILL of less value?

Why won't other countries accept us, and cut down on the number of deaths of poor people here in the US?

Dead is dead, whether gay or POOR.

[Bluebear]

59. Can no issue stand on its own without relating to your issue of poverty?

First you claimed that no gay people ever come to your aid in poverty-related threads. Now you compare religious/governmental persecution of gay people in Poland to being poor in America, as if people are coming after you for being poor.

It's not a fair comparison for you to make.

You infer that the gay people leaving Poland for Britain are lucky, not oppressed.

[bobbolink]

60. No, it's not possible.

"First you claimed that no gay people ever come to your aid in poverty-related threads."

I made no such "claim" You CHOSE to see it that way.

"You infer that the gay people leaving Poland for Britain are lucky, not oppressed."

Project much? They are two oppressed groups which should be relating and supporting each other. They should BOTH be receiving support.

It's not going to do your blood pressure any good to be looking for anti-gay sentiment where none exists.

[Bluebear]

61. Just to let you know, saw your answer and my blood pressure is fine.

Your posts are fine, it's just that I see them wrong and I project, so there won't be any purpose in keeping this going.

[bobbolink]

62. That's right. You decided quite a long time ago that I was wrong, so there is,

indeed, no need to continue. Given that I also have a degree of faith, in your mind, I can say nothing of interest.

So, have a fine life, and I wish you well.

Sometimes there's just no point in trying to discuss.

Take care.

[Bluebear]

63. You have a fine life too & I have no idea what your degrees are in.

PS "And, I'd certainly LOVE to have gay folks speak up for me, also, when cuts are being made that make my survival questionable, but, then.... that wouldn't be too likely, would it?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2692542&mesg_id=2697451

I don't know how I misread that all of a sudden but whatever.

[bobbolink]

69. Seeing and Creating enemies where none exists doesn't help your health, and doesn't help the nation.

But, as you say, "whatever..."

I'm guessing you'd like to have the last word, so have at it.

Just remember, whatever you want to project onto me, I'm not your enemy. Never have been, never will be.

[mondo joe]

74. When you say it's unlikely that gays will support the poor, you make youself the enemy.

[mondo joe]

65. Which other countries have turned you down for immigration?

[NMMNG]

68. When did England turn you down for immigration?

And I think there's a difference between being poor and your life being in danger from bigots who want to kill you.

[bobbolink]

70. Actually, my life IS in danger. From bigots who don't believe poor folk have

any right to survive.

You don't remember that many people who survived the SuperDome and the Convention Center ended up having to kill themselves because they had no place to live, and no way to survive? It wasn't that long ago.

Over 300,000 poor people were cut off Medicaid. They weren't important enough to track, so nobody knows how many of them died. It didn't get the press that the gay people fleeing Poland are getting.

Probably about the same number of people were cut off SSI. With no money, how did they all survive? We don't' know, because it wasn't important enough to track, and wasn't important enough to report. Does it matter?

How many people are dying because they just can't fight anymore.... no $$$, no health care, no food, no place to live. People died because Clinton cut off welfare. Where was the outrage?

When you choose to see us as in the same boat, then peace will expand.

NO country takes poor immigrants. Read the requirements some time.

I'm not your enemy, and don't choose to continue an adversarial battle.

[mondo joe]

71. Who exactly thinks the poor don't have any right to survive?

You may not have noticed, but most on DU supports causes and candidates that support impoverished people.

Then again, I recall you villifying Habitat for Humanity for not doing what you want them to do, so I should consider the source.

[LeftishBrit]

73. Many right-wingers, sadly.

[Midlodemocrat]

84. I just remembered that.

Knew there was something out of whack.

[mondo joe]

85. When the person who villifies Habitat for Humanity criticizes you, you must be doing

something right!

[Midlodemocrat]

87. HFH is an awesome organization.

They've been on and off clients of mine for years. Wonderful, wonderful people who do wonderful things for the poor.

[NMMNG]

77. You're the one who keeps up the adversarial battle

You're the one who keeps wagging your stick at gay people every chance you get.

I've worked the last 20 years in human services. I donate frequently and generously to various charities and to homeless people I pass by on the streets. I advocate strongly for the needy, the "underdogs" and victims of bigotry everywhere. Don't ever try to give me a line about how I don't do anything for you or people in your situation just because I'm not kissing your personal backside.

[bobbolink]

81. Oh yeah, I'm against all gay people. geeeeeeez......

As I said to someone else, seeing enemies where none exist isn't good for your health, or for the country as a whole.

See me as you wish. When you find my words telling you to "kiss my backside", then you'll have a point. Until then....

I refuse to argue with you.

Have a fine day, and a fine life.

So long....

[NMMNG]

99. One could say the same to you

Everyone seems to be against you, never doing anything for you, etc, etc. Or so it would seem from a perusal of your posts.

BTW, not everybody else here is posting from their mansion while they sip champagne from sterling silver goblets and laughing at beggars on the street. You aren't the only one who has known struggle and hardship.

And That line about gay people all being rich--that's a RW myth.

[Midlodemocrat]

80. How is your life in danger? And, if it truly is, why are you posting on DU

instead of getting to a safe place? :shrug:

[bobbolink]

82. If you were more aware of the dangers of poverty, your questions would be answered for you.

I've covered all that in another post here on this thread, and don't see the need to repeat it for you.

Your compassion is.... underwhelming.

It's clear that we are unable to discuss this rationally.

Good luck with all that divisiveness. So much energy goes into attacking others, rather than building bridges. :(

So long.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. Wow. just wow.

"seeing enemies where none exist" I believe that was your line.

And, FWIW, every single person on the planet's life is currently in danger. You not special in that regard.

And your post upthread is conjecture, so it means little.

Again, how is your life in danger? Is it in immediate danger? Are you more in danger than I am when I get in my car this afternoon?

Not getting this. Everything you are talking about is stuff that 'could happen'.

[sniffa]

89. you just hate poor peopLe

especiaLLy poor DUers, who can onLy afford to make about 20 posts a day because of their destitution.

[bobbolink]

91. Thank you for your concern and compassion.

You want me to be concerned for others, whom I do not know, but you are not able to extend that, yourself.

There is no point at all in continuuing this. Look down your nose at me and others all you want, judge us and dismiss us.

Just remember, that's very like what you are condeming as being done to gays.

Basta.

So long.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. Let me get this straight.

I should have concern for you, someone I don't know, but you can't have concern for others that you don't know?

I am not looking down my nose at you. I simply don't understand what you are saying when you say your life is in danger.

If that is hyperbole because of your economic situation, so be it, but I think posting that your life is in danger is unfair to this forum because it implies that people do not care about poverty and worries others.

You have no idea the extent to which people in this forum have volunteered or contributed to the poverty stricken in this country, and your comments to that effect are ridiculous. You. Have. No. Idea.

[sniffa]

93. weLL did you heLp bobbo specificaLLy?

then why shouLd she care?

[NMMNG]

105. Aye, there's the rub

[LeftishBrit]

72. The reason is that Poland is part of the EU, and the US isn't.

Fair or unfair, it's much easier to emigrate from one EU country to another than from a non-EU country to the EU.

I do wish you all the best in getting something sorted out, in your own country or through emigration.

[bobbolink]

76. Interesting point. I'm guessing, though, that the US would have accepted them.

And probably Canada also.

Thanks for your best wishes! I'm in a very scary place, and may become one of those who don't survive.

[sniffa]

79. because they hate you

i tried taLking to the minister of the bobboLink heLp department, but they refused to take you in because they're bigots.

don't worry though bobboLink, we're coming to save you. you just hang in there baby.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Your post carries an undercurrent that doesn't smell good at all.

And no, I'm not going to elaborate. Use whatever amount of good sense you have.

[MonkeyFunk]

98. As Rodney Dangerfield

said when asked to participate in Comic Relief:

"Fuck the poor! What've they ever done for Israel?"

[Swamp Rat]

64. Economic embargo might cure this disease.

How about no one spend any money there until the neo-nazis are no longer in power?

In the meantime, the USA should welcome ALL of them as political refugees.

[sniffa]

96. i'm swearing off kieLbasa

i think that's the onLy poLish thing i might buy.... but does it count if i caLL it smoked freedom animaL parts?

[truebrit71]

66. Maybe they should just round them up and put them in special camps for "re-education"...

...iirc they have quite a few left over from WWII....

Unbelievable... :shrugs::grr:

[KharmaTrain]

67. Reminds Me Of Letters From 100 Years Ago

Just exchange the word "Gays" with "Jews" and this sure sounds like the systemic repression my grandparents faced in that land and drove them to coming to this country. My grandmother would curse the Poles to her last day as the memories of her town being pilaged were always fresh in her memory.

[suffragette]

78. Looks like Poland's twin leaders are pushing this as well.

From last year at http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1816165,00.html,

Nine months after calling the idea unacceptable, Poland's ruling party yesterday made the identical Kaczynski twins the most powerful men in the country, naming Jaroslaw as Prime Minister to serve alongside the President, Lech, his junior by 45 minutes.

~snip~

The 57-year-old Kaczynskis came to power promising a 'moral revolution' that would root out corruption in Polish politics, redistribute wealth, help Poland's poor and 18 per cent unemployed, and strengthen traditional values in a staunchly Catholic country.

But the portly twins - who are former child stars of the Polish cinema and Solidarity activists - irked critics at home and abroad by advocating the death penalty and criticising homosexuals, reinforcing an illiberal attitude earned by Lech when he banned two gay parades in Warsaw as the city's mayor and called the organisers 'perverts'.

The League of Polish Families has done little to burnish the government's image, with one leading member reportedly calling for 'gay pride' marchers to be attacked with truncheons and another causing uproar in the European Parliament last week by praising Spanish and Portuguese dictators General Francisco Franco and Antonio Salazar.

How they can call such hateful and hate-filled behavior "moral" is beyond me. With this leadership, I imagine this will all sadly be getting worse rather than improving.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. If they reinstate the death penalty, Poland's out of the EU faster than you can say "God hates fags"

[suffragette]

104. Maybe that would be a push back that would help

by pitting Poland's self interest in being part of the EU against its desire to act on its bigotry, but right now it looks powerfully grim and dangerous for gay people there. It's a brutal choice isn't it, to remain there and fight at who knows how high a cost or to flee to safety. A brutal choice imposed by the brutes in charge.

[BlooInBloo]

90. (shrug) Fine. We should take em. We made out like gangbusters last time euro-bigots did this.

[fudge stripe cookays]

97. I remember Pri posted something awhile back...

about her friend in Poland who is gay, and he was saying how terrible it is. I had no idea.

You would think that after all the persecution various groups there experienced in the past that they'd be a little more progressive at this point.

[rockymountaindem]

106. That seems to be a popular prediction

but it's more common that the cycle of hate just builds and builds, apparently.