Is this who some of you hate so much? You loathe this woman enough

[cboy4]

to not care she died from one of the cruelest diseases in existence?

Look at her!

How can any human being be so happy she died this way??



I thought I'd seen everything when I read/experienced the grave dancing surrounding Steve Irwin's death.

And then came the mocking and horrific comments surrounding the death of that San Francisco father who accidentally drove down the wrong road in Oregon, and out of desperation, walked through the snow to try to find help for his babies and wife.

Oh it served him right being so irresponsible driving down the wrong road, even though it was later determined someone cut the lock on the gate that should have blocked that road.

And then there were the people laughing at the "rich" hikers who got lost on Mt. Hood. How dare they waste tax dollars forcing a rescue operation?! They deserved to die, those selfish assholes.

And then it was funny that Anna Nicole Smith died. Because she was such a horrible person. She hurt so many people, didn't she?

Please let all of these people who dance on the graves of the dead be trolls.

Please don't let them be real Democrats or real DUers

I refuse to believe these people (and you know who you are) are progressives. I refuse.

Tammy, for all of her faults regarding the PTL, ended up embracing gay youth (in case you didn't know). She answered desperate letters and tried to talk kids child after child after child out of killing themselves.

How many high profile Evangelical-types can be commended for doing that?

Please let these DU haters be trolls.

Tammy's death is resurrecting horrible, nightmarish thoughts about friends and relatives who have died from cancer.

I am just devastated tonight by what I'm reading from some.

You know, I can barely see what I'm writing through what's left of the supply of my tears. :(

[JeffR]

1. I can only rec this once

wish I could rec it some more.

[liberaldemocrat7]

51. I'm sory that she died.

However it does not take away from the fact that she and Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts and other avaricious self proclaimed Christian exploiters helped usher in the Reagan Bush error.

The RepubliKLAN party courted these people and still do. They oh so proclaimed that the RepublIKLAN party lived the better moral life and their world came crashing down on themselves. Reagan tuned out an uncompassionate lout, George Herbert Hoover Bush wanted a kinder gentler neglect in America and his dimwit son heated it up again with his uncompassionate conservatism regression back to the 1920's.

Tammy Faye road the wave in with Jim Bakker and crashed and burned on their hypocritical religiosity.


From dust they came and to dust they have returned to. I'm sorry that they died but when they lived upon the earth they did not act very kind to the poor, even if they individuality treated their friends well.

The Republicans may treat their family and friends well but they care nothing about those they do not know.

[Le Taz Hot]

79. Please, provide

citations that Tammy Faye PERSONALLY did ANY of what you are accusing her of.

And you just HAD to piss on this thread, now, didn't you? You know what? Karma is a bitch!

[goddess40]

238. it's common knowledge

if you ever saw their show - my grandmother was one that sent money she didn't have to give and it was because of Tammy Faye. I'm not glad she died and I would never wish this type of death on anyone - it's just that she wasn't a wonderful person she stole from the poor to give to herself. She lived a privileged life thanks to those she duped into sending her money they couldn't afford to give.
I'm sure she also had the best health care while I never heard her once promote health care for all.

[Lost4words]

115. I totally agree with post 51 they were out for themselves!

[Le Taz Hot]

122. So, no one can ever make amends

for any wrongdoing they've ever done in their lives. I see. Tell me, sunshine, how does it feel to have lived such an utterly perfect life? Hmmmm????

[liberaldemocrat7]

132. She did the damage with her husband but I'm sorry she died.

I'm sorry to see that she died but se and her Husband Jim Bakkker and the rest of those avaricious christians helped usher in the reagan bush error.

[Lost4words]

240. First of all I am quite aware of my sins, I am not glad she suffered.

but I feel no loss in her passing. I sorry this fact seems to upset you. I dont recall her ever making amends for any of the abuses or lies made by these swindlers.

Frankly La Taz Hot, I question your reaction to those here who are not grave dancing but rather not sugar coating the truth about the Bakers and their self serving activities.

My cat and dog are closer to God than the bakers ever were. And BTW God loves the truth.

My cutsie nickname for you, since you sarcastically referred to me as sunshine, will be mud pit.

So mudpit you have no problem with folks who use Gods name in vain for personal gain?

You have no problem with people who lie to get a good persons savings to do the will of god and use to build a lavish life for them selves?

Just what do you believe is a sin, the truth will never be a sin. So go ahead and condemn those of us who feel no loss for predators who never repent.

Your values are askew in this matter.

[LeahMira]

135. #51 is right

"However it does not take away from the fact that she and Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts and other avaricious self proclaimed Christian exploiters helped usher in the Reagan Bush error."

Until the above-mentioned individuals or their successors admit publicly that they did wrong and find a way to make sure that the sorts of things they did can never happen again, their lives and deaths are irrelevant to me.

[Chovexani]

150. Watch a documentary called the Eyes of Tammy Faye

When Reagan was pretending AIDS didn't exist, Tammy Faye was reaching out to GLBT community and people with AIDS and preaching love and compassion. Tammy Faye had as little to do with her husband's politics and bullshit than Pickles does with hers, and unlike Pickles Tammy Faye actually worked toward the betterment of humanity, and by the end of her life actually did something to make a difference.

Lumping her in with Falwell in particular shows me how little you know about her, considering how Falwell stabbed her and Jim in the back when the PTL scandals went down. I'm not calling you out or flaming you, I'm just saying that if you actually sit down and learn about Tammy Faye you'll realize just how off-base you are.

[Sherman A1]

166. I was browsing this thread

and noted the response "#51 was right" and started looking for post #51 as it appeared that it was perhaps a bit of an unkind comment and bingo it's from someone on my ignore list. Don't know what they said, but now that I know it was from an ignored poster, I have an even greater appreciation of this feature.

We may or may not like Tammy Faye, but she was a human being and we can at the very least be respectful at her passing. I for one am sorry that she passed away, she might have done some wrong or might have done some good, but I would be willing to bet that all of us would fit into that description in one way or another during our lifetime.

[Divine Discontent]

214. snicker! yes, the ignore button reveals continual harshness out of some, doesn't it? n/t

[Lost4words]

241. Here is a copy of your Ignored post 51. I see no disrespect in it.

Post 51 FYI.

"However it does not take away from the fact that she and Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts and other avaricious self proclaimed Christian exploiters helped usher in the Reagan Bush error.

The RepubliKLAN party courted these people and still do. They oh so proclaimed that the RepublIKLAN party lived the better moral life and their world came crashing down on themselves. Reagan tuned out an uncompassionate lout, George Herbert Hoover Bush wanted a kinder gentler neglect in America and his dimwit son heated it up again with his uncompassionate conservatism regression back to the 1920's.

Tammy Faye road the wave in with Jim Bakker and crashed and burned on their hypocritical religiosity.


From dust they came and to dust they have returned to. I'm sorry that they died but when they lived upon the earth they did not act very kind to the poor, even if they individuality treated their friends well.

The Republicans may treat their family and friends well but they care nothing about those they do not know."

[TankLV]

159. What you say is very true and nobody can forget that, nor should they.

But unlike the other examples of right wing assholes, Tammy Faye had made a remarkable turnaround and has CONTRIBUTED GREATLY for tolerance and understanding during the last third of her life since her disgrace.

That count's for a lot in my book...

[roguevalley]

189. so basically there can be no redemption, you cannot redeem yourself

no matter how long you live, no matter how you try? Then Robert Byrd will always be a Klansman, etc. In this country, IN THIS LIFE, there is always the hope for redemption, for making yourself and your life better than it was before. I am really sorry for people who crow over stuff like this. I lost my father last July to cancer. I WOULDN'T WISH IT ON BUSH AND CHENEY! Unless you EVER had someone go through this, you cannot understand. Tammy Faye redeemed herself. She showed herself in dying as possessing more grace than a lot of the voices on this forum.

A friend of mine lost her husband today to cancer. I feel for Tammy and her kids. May she go to heaven on the wings of angels. She earned it.

[skepticscott]

195. Sure you can redeem yourself

and if Tammy Faye had given back all the money she and her hubby had bilked people out of, and fixed all the damage that they did to people's lives, I'd say she earned it. If she didn't, I'd say she still had a ways to go.

[Irishonly]

209. DElete

[Irishonly]

211. I am sorry

My deepest sympathy to you and also to your friend. I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone. I have lost too many family members to cancer and have survived it.

I agree with you completely. Without redemption there is no hope. We cannot judge who gets redeemed and who doesn't.

[TomInTib]

220. And THEN she married Roe Messner, convicted fraudster.

Right-hand man to Jimmy.

That woman sure knew how to butter her own toast.

Her pandering to the GLBT crowd was the easiest sell, ever.

Tammy Faye's crew definitely knew how to package her.

[cmd]

105. I'll add one for you.

Tammy Faye was a great lady.

[MrMickeysMom]

120. Well, gang, I'm going to quote Leo Tolstoi on this...

... and just ponder about some of the labels we are quick to give others, as I am guilty of doing, cause I refer to Christian fundementalists as nuts and being manipulated by the Republican party. However, consider that there are...

Two Divisions of Society~

There are two methods of human activity~and according to which one of these two kinds of activity people mainly follow, are there two kinds of people: one use their reason to learn what is good and what is bad and they act according to this knowledge; the other act as they want to and then they use their reason to prove that that which they did was good and that which they didn't do was bad. (LT)

Everyone in their own time, learns. (MMM)

[Miss Chybil]

157. Good post. I often ask, "How can one reconcile being bigoted against bigots?"

It's a tail chasing kind of thing, if you ask me, and very hard to do. I don't know the answer.

On edit: I know very little about Tammy Faye and my remarks have nothing to do with her, but about myself and many others like me on these boards. May she rest in peace.

[illinoisprogressive]

2. were there people saying they were happy? no one deserves this.

[rockymountaindem]

3. More than one n/t

[bobthedrummer]

22. fwiw, there was a thread in The Lounge that was started by OP of a locked thread

[Le Taz Hot]

80. See post #51

in THIS thread. Also in the LBN thread. Disgusting!

[Lost4words]

117. Post 51 has it spot on, these were not good people.

There is nothing worse than a Christan that does not practice what they preach.

Hatred is not a Christian value. Greed is not a CV. pride is not a CV.

Good people die every day and nothing is said, I wont be a hypocrite for these hypocrites, why are you?

:WTF:

[BeHereNow]

4. As I stated on another thread-

What more reason does one need to give up "hope" when there
is no way to discern the so called "left" from
the so called "right" on the hate-o-meter?

You know how I feel about this from my
previous posts on the matter, so I will elaborate not further.

BHN

[ooglymoogly]

112. Jim and Tammy Faye were not right wingers...if anything

They were live and let live liberals who fervently believed in a benevolent god. Like all televangelists he did some things to build his village of the god he believed in that were against the law law like selling too many shares in his vision...and the rest of the right wing jumped on him with a vengeance reserved for serial killers for not toeing the rabid line of conservatism. The gay community were the only group that stuck by them....laughing with Tammy about her make up and not at her. All of us had a soft spot for Tammy for her generousness and honesty and watched her every chance we got when she appeared on the telly and are sad she is gone....but she was suffering soooo much and if there is a silver lining to this it is that the suffering is over...and I hope she is at piece and happy in the heaven she built.... to me she is now ST. Tammy Faye and if I believed in the biblical god she would be the St. I would pray to. Any fool who is happy at her death is most likely a right winger or someone who did not know who she was, because she believed not in their fascism in the name of religion delusion and frequently spoke against intolerance. Honesty and Genuineness are rare traits in a person and do not require a brilliant mind to thrive in nor a brilliant mind to understand and love that genuineness....and so we love you Tammy Faye


edited to correct the gibberish

[connecticut yankee]

114. I'm sorry

but I cannot mourn Tammy Faye.

I'm sorry that she died such a painful death which I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Nonetheless, she and her then husband bilked millions of people, many of them poor or lower-income, out of their hard earned money so that they could live a lavish lifestyle with matching Rolls Royces and opulent Mansions.

Is anyone shedding any tears for them today?

I do not agree with you for calling her generous and honest. What did she ever do for anyone but herself and Bakker?

[ooglymoogly]

119. Rubbish....how many ceo's of multi million dollar

enterprises do you know who do not live well. And how many televangelists do you know that are not lying their asses off all the while being hypocrites and selling a load of vicious crap and living well off it, doing exactly what Jim and Tammy Feye were doing except toeing the fascist line....Jim and Tammy Faye preached love ....furthermore any Corp or otherwise big entity can be said to be bilking the public and fudging to get there. But it takes a perp walk in 200lb chains to convince the public to hate them. They had a dream of building a small utopia for their congregation and all who wanted to be a part but they became to optimistic and they made an even bigger mistake and that was being liberal and Jerry Fallwell and the rest of the jealous, malicious right wing evangelical crew swooped down like vultures to devour everything they built. How many of the big televangelists would hold up under the same scrutiny as they were held up to...they were a threat to the establishment because they preached love and tolerence....and that is a fact.

[mmonk]

5. I lost three family members to cancer.

I only have empathy and sympathy. We are only as good as we are able to connect on a human level.

[petronius]

6. Well said. I have never understood the grave-dancing posts around here

For me, even if the dead person is the worst person in the world, a gleeful 'hah hah you're dead' post says so much more about the poster than the recently deceased...

[tomreedtoon]

45. I think a lot of it is frustration.

These are people that nobody could touch, affect or criticize in life. Their death allows them to.

And of course, that is an indictment of the ability of liberal/progressive/whatever people to stand up and take a stand. Look at the ineffective resistance to Bush. You'll see a lot of comments when Bush dies, from people who wouldn't or couldn't do anything against him now.

[theredpen]

7. Amen n/t

[murielm99]

8. Have you seen

'The Eyes of Tammy Faye?'

There are some interesting questions raised in that documentary.

How many of us know, or have been women left to raise children alone and to support ourselves after a spouse leaves, whether they are imprisoned or they just walk? She had to face the ridicule, and all that, too.

Tammy Faye actually forgave. She forgave Falwell.

She faced her illness with courage and humor, too.

Go to God, Tammy Faye. RIP.

[tularetom]

9. I don't wish death on anyone (well maybe one or two of my teachers when

I was 12). And I sincerely wish nobody a horrible painful death.

And although Tammy Faye pulled some pretty bad shit back in the day, she has redeemed herself in later years.

Nevertheless, I find it very difficult to muster up a great deal of empathy for people like Michael Vick, Cheney or Bush.

[silverojo]

27. I agree

This kind of death would only be suitable for the truly evil monsters of our earth. Yes, Tammy Faye sinned in this life, but she was not one of those monsters.

[QC]

10. Recommended.

Beautiful post.

[G_j]

11. I hope whoever "you" is

reads this, for whoever they are, I can assure you they are but a handful.

edit to add, there is there is no real practical difference between mean people and trolls in my book.

[BeHereNow]

13. I hope you are right...

for it is far too depressing for me to contemplate otherwise.
BHN

[G_j]

20. whoever they are

they don't represent me or anyone I respect here.

[BeHereNow]

21. I'll second that brother J...

:hug:
BHN

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. I probably have more reason to hate this woman than some...and I don't

PTL took what little there was of my mother from me while she was dying of cancer, feeding her nonsense and promises that maybe today she'd be the one that God told them to speak to through the t.v. and be healed. So you'd think I would see this as some kind of poetic justice.

I don't. I forgave Tammy Faye when I saw "Eyes of Tammy Faye" several years ago. She was a flawed person who seemed to genuinely have love for other people, even those that many evangelicals told her she should hate. In that way, she was like my mother, who died brainwashed by religion, but still seeing the good in everyone, still wanting to save everyone she could.

Rest in peace, Tammy Faye.

[BeHereNow]

15. And that makes you...

an example of what all humans should strive for.
Love to you,
BHN

[Der Blaue Engel]

140. Thanks, BHN

:hug:

The thing is, I am in general a rather bitter person, and I have danced on many fundie graves (and plan to dance most merrily on the graves of the cabal when their time comes!). I have a lot of hatred for those people because of my childhood and how my mother died.

But this woman was so clearly different. It only took a moment of listening to her speak to realize she was not like those hateful opportunists, that her heart was truly full of love. I wish there could be more like her.

[Hissyspit]

19. Best post on this subject that I've seen. n/t

[mzmolly]

136. What a lovely post.

Thanks.

[villager]

14. But then again, DU gives us this essay from the sublime Nance Greggs:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1399913


This essay --or its analog -- would never exist on a RW site...

[hfojvt]

43. Not sure about the essay

but Yolanda King died about the same time Jerry Falwell did. While DU was dancing on Falwell's grave I decided to search FR to see what they said about King.

To their credit, there was no dancing:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1834326/posts

"Prayers go out to the family."

"My condolences to the family. Any word on the cause? 52 is awfully young (I’m 52)."


"I just think of this as going home and some of us will go home sooner than others..May she rest in peace...her time here is over and now she is going to be with the Lord...
RIP!!!"

"Rest in peace."

[villager]

54. So - this selection from FR is supposed to prove their (mythical) largeheartedness?

n/t

[MrPrax]

75. That's what I love...

about these threads.

You get a chance to do some foundation inspection...rip up a floor board and see what kinda infestation you got :grr:

[roguevalley]

190. no, just that they got it right once. that is enough for me. for now.

[KoKo]

92. Yes....Nance's post is worth the read ....it's beautifully written and says what

many of us here feel about Tammy-Faye.

[KitchenWitch]

16. Thank you - I came to respect her even if I did not agree with her

She truly walked her talk.

[DianeG5385]

17. I think her courage in showing the face of cancer has been missed

No one wants to see what the ravages of cancer do to a body. My mom died suddenly from lung cancer. 'Suddenly" is just an explanation of her rapid deterioration. The doctor said she had it for YEARS! We, me and my 5 bros and sisters did not get an opportunity to grieve. My mom's last words were I did not think it would be this bad. It was BADDD. At her worst, she was nothing close to as bad as Tammy Faye looked. I believe it was because she did not have the will to live. In fact, the torture was watching her choke to death. Don't smoke. Tammy Faye put a face on cancer.

[silverojo]

29. My friend's mom died of lung cancer

She wasted away like Tammy Faye...believe it or not, her condition was even worse. Poor woman was completely bedridden, too weak to move or even communicate. Only 4 months between diagnosis and death--it was that fast.

Tammy Faye did not deserve to go this way. :cry:

[cboy4]

31. I'm so sorry to hear about your mother's friend silverojo.

How sad. :cry:

[frankly_fedup2]

126. No one deserves a death so painful (nt)

[Clark2008]

100. I'm sorry to hear about your mother, but what are the thousands

of people diagnosed with lung cancer who don't smoke supposed to do?

I honestly believe cancer is genetic and that we blame smoking entirely too much because Big Pharma would rather have a scapegoat than actually search for a cure.

I had a friend who died of lung cancer at 28 and she never smoked.

[DianeG5385]

200. In the history of her family she was one the VERY FEW smokers

She was seriously a chain smoker and an alcoholic due to her numerous anxieties. Now THAT was genetic. I believe if my mom had stayed on the farm in Illinois and not moved to LA she would have been better off by far. 'Course, then I wouldn't be here. I remember my sister remarking on the fact that I was born 7 months after my parents marriage and that "obviously I was a mistake" I said, well you wouldn't be here if I wasn't THAT mistake!!! It got a huge laugh from my other bros and sisters!!!

[Cetacea]

18. Recommended.

Very sad for anyone to have to endure this.
I hope you are right about trolls. Sigh...

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

24. A big old healing bear hug to you, cboy.

You know how I feel.

[cboy4]

25. I do know

:hug:

[FourScore]

26. Beautifully said, cboy4!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Kick and recommend!

[sandnsea]

28. Aw, I didn't hear that

I've been preoccupied today and not near any television. I figured she didn't have a lot of time when I saw her the other day. I think she was misguided, but there's no doubt she meant well and was a joy to many people. Very few of us can really say we tried as hard as she did to understand and contribute to the goodness on the planet. The people who are trashing her are sickened by their own grief and just as misguided as Tammy Faye was in some areas. I think I just won't read those posts, I don't think I'd have to try hard to figure out who was writing that trash.

[RiverStone]

30. Very much agree personally - but if someone wants to be a jerk...

They also have a right to express it.

I personally share your sentiments cboy4 - anybody that chooses to dance on the grave of Tammy Faye, Anna Nicole, or Steve Erwin --- shows a lack of sensitivity and seems down right mean.

That being said, as much as I personally find it in very poor taste; we at DU have always been about free expression and I wonder where does grave dancing begin vs where expressing relief or satisfaction end? Case in point - when Jerry Falwell died, I did not dance on his grave - but I did remember the horrendous things he said while alive that hurt folks where I grew up in Georgia.

I did not wish him to die - nor did I have any fond memories either. Where does that fall on the offering respect continuum? Who decides where to draw the line? Obviously, that line would smack of censorship.

Back to the grave dancers - I may really -REALLY- dislike what they say, but I'll defend their right to be total jerks if they choose. Their karma...

Free speech eh? :think:

On Tammy, I will always respect her for simply being herself. She was comfortable with who she was, despite the teasing and really fucked up husband in Jim Baker - she was Tammy and stayed true to herself! :applause:


On Edit: My free speech choice only applies to "public personalities". Part of DU's rules includes NO personal attacks or flame wars against individual members at DU. I see that as part of our membership agreement and fully support it!

[ikojo]

70. Someone like Fallwell, who even after having people

reach out to him, did not alter his extreme views does not become a saint or a mensch because he took his last breath. Jerry Falwell is not missed in my book. Fallwell's death means there is one less hate monger out there.

Tammy Faye on the other hand DID reach out to those who were injured via her and her husband's evangelical faith. She did become their friend. She did have REAL teshuva (a turning). I too saw the Eyes of Tammy Faye and was touched by that documentary.

I wish her kids (not sure if she had only the son Jim Bakker Jr or more than one kid) and her ex husband Jim Bakker well as they mourn the loss of Tammy Faye.

[SeattleGirl]

32. Could you please put a warning in your thread title?

Not blaming you or anything, but I've been consciously trying to avoid seeing pics of her from LK the other night, but clicked on this and saw one.

And, I do want to say, bless her heart, and God grant her peace. I think she has more than earned it.

[cboy4]

33. I'm sorry I upset you SeattleGirl. Now I feel even worse because

I like you so much. :cry:

[Disturbed]

34. I felt that she had redeemed herself in the past few years.

I felt bad for her regarding her cancer and suffering. Very few here had vile remarks about her. They do have the right to express their negative comments although I felt those comments were awful and mean spirited.

[PoconoPragmatist]

130. Understand

where those awful and mean-spirited comments are coming from. They are coming from ones who hurt inside...who hurt because of the things she once did or said...for things that others did to them or said to them because, at one time Tammy encouraged it. These people are hurt and are lashing out at the one who hurt them...or at least, a symbol of those who have hurt them. The Christian Right does not exatly make themselves very easy to love, you know! They claim to come wiith "The Good News" and for many...that "Good News" is as comforting as a crown of thorns.

Don't condemn those who are hurting. Show them compassion, love and mercy...give them salve for their wounds that, one day, they may be strong enough to not have the resentful bitter feelings they currently do. forgiveness is not an easy thing. Even I often have trouble with it.

[Chovexani]

208. You know what, I call bullshit

Because you know what it is? It's just plain ignorance. These are people who don't know a damn thing about Tammy Faye other than shit her husband did 20 years ago (and she really didn't even have a hand in). All it is is knee-jerk Christian bashing and it's mindless and stupid. I danced as hard and as joyfully on Jerry Falwell's grave as anyone did on DU, but you will not catch me doing anything of the sort now that Tammy Faye has passed. Why? Because she was NOT of that ilk. Even at the height of the PTL days Tammy Faye was never like that. Jim Bakker was a greedy SOB but one thing I can say is that they never preached hatefulness or fearmongering. Tammy Faye was at worst a misguided, somewhat ditsy woman whose heart was in the right place but got caught up in a whole lot of BS of her husband's making. And you know what? She rose above it after she hit bottom, got her life together, and reached out to people that the REAL villainous fundie types condemned. This is why this queer Pagan will fight to defend this woman's honor despite the fact that I don't share her belief system by any stretch. Tammy Faye truly looked out for the "least of these" in her later years. She stood against the Pharisees and the hatemongers simply by doing what Jesus taught, and that was loving people.

It's the broad brush that irritates me. It shows a lack of knowledge as to what really went on.

[liberaldemocrat7]

232. I'm sorry but I occaisionally watched PTL and saw her hawk for money.

I will say this again. I'm sorry that she died.

However she lived off her husband's wealth. If she left him early in the relationship and swore off Mr. Bakkker then I would give her some more sympathy, however she and Bakkker and Falwell, Roberts and other avaricious self proclaimed Christians hel0ped usher in the reagan bush error and I fault her and the others for that.

The RepubliKLAN party used religion to get votes so they could then poor bash and turn the middle class against the poor in a furious ideological class war that the Republicans waged in the 80's You don't believe that RepubliKLAN party hysteria and fascism ended with McCarthyism did you? It did not end with the religious inquisition in the 1980's and it continues today on that line and also on the national defense line too.

The RepubliKLAN party uses religion and national defense as a club to whop anyone who disagrees with them on those issues to get votes even though they failed on national defense on Sept 11, 2001 and failed on moral values in the 1980's, 1990's and in this decade.

So no, I will not let up on Tammy Faye. I'm sorry she died but she stands as culpable as Jerry Falwell.

[MrsMatt]

252. enough with the "KKK" and "Klan" references already

It certainly makes it difficult for me to take your posts seriously - it makes you seem like a bit of a nutter.

[Kajsa]

236. Thank you, Pocono.

I"m getting so fed up with the cruelty and nastiness that
I'm trying to counter it.

I end up getting as nasty as they are= a lose-lose situation.

I needed your clarity.

:pals:

[SeattleGirl]

36. Oh, damn.

I wasn't trying to call you out, cboy4. I just wanted to remember her in better days. I have to take responsibility; no one made me click on that thread.

:hug:

[cboy4]

38. It's okay. I should have put a disclaimer just in case. Nothing you

wrote will change how fond I am of you. :hug:

We had a lot if fun the other in the overnight session threads and I'll always remember that. :pals:

[SeattleGirl]

41. Thank you.

The Senate Pajama Party was something, wasn't it? :pals:

[cboy4]

42. Good, I'm glad you're not too mad at me. And yes, the

pajama party was the most fun I've had on DU in a long time. :)

[SeattleGirl]

44. Not mad at you at all!

Like I said, I chose to click on the thread; I just wish you had added a warning, but oh well. Bless that woman's heart, and I'm so glad she is not hurting any more. My dad died from cancer, and I really would not wish that on anyone.

And yeah, the pajama party was great! :bounce:

[cboy4]

46. Awwww, I'm sorry about your dad. :( I bet he would be awfully proud

of the kind of human being you turned out to be. :bounce:

[Harper_is_Bush]

35. Stop worrying so much about what others write online...

..and don't take it upon yourself to chastise them.

[cboy4]

37. Thank you for writing. The only reason I'm bringing this up is

because one of the qualities I like best about Democrats in general is how compassionate we are.

Of course, people have a right to state their feelings in whichever fashion they choose.

But I think I have a right to express my disappointment about what some people are saying.

It is a discussion board after all.

And I feel I'm being mostly polite about it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

203. Of course you "have a right" to express yourself. I just think it's a little silly

to chastise DU'ers for dumpting on Tammy Fay, just becuase she died a terrible death.

When we die, we should ALL be judged for what we did in life....regardless of how pitiful we looked before our death.

Tammy Fay got rich from plugging God. True, yes?

[Maddy McCall]

39. Proud to be the 30th rec on this post.

Cboy, you and I have had our differences in the past, but this post shows me a whole different side of you.

With you in sympathy. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[cboy4]

40. Thanks. I appreciate that.

:hug:

[TransitJohn]

47. I'm with you.

I was also upset by the "gravedancing" upon Reagan's death.....although he didn't do any atonement that I could discern. I'd just like to think that we as a community comport ourselves better than just a bunch of internet assholes.

[cboy4]

66. Yes, and there was also a disturbing amount of "gravedancing"

when President Ford died.

I just looked at the videotape of poor Mrs. Ford, and I thought to myself, you know, he was a Republican who pardoned Nixon, but how can one not feel sad for this frail 90-plus year old woman losing her best friend.

It just made me incredibly sad to read some of the vicious comments here. :(

[A-Schwarzenegger]

48. A lot of people are here mainly out of hatred for BushCo.

Hatred never made a heart humane.

[WatchWhatISay]

50. Do you really think that?

I think you are selling DU way short.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

55. Yes.

I do believe that "a lot" of people here on DU (and elsewhere) are driven, politically,
more by what they hate (and fear) than by what they love. There are many
thousands of people here. "A lot" doesn't mean a majority, necessarily.
I don't think I'm selling DU short or long, but simply being realistic.
I think this explains the cruelty behind "death" threads, as well
as the sexism and other forms of fear and hatred.

EDIT: Obviously, this doesnt apply to me or you. :hi:

[I Have A Dream]

86. I agree. Very good point, A-S. n/t

[mwb970]

91. Is being opposed to Bush and Cheney a form of "hate" then?

This is what the RW says when they talk about "irrational Bush hatred". But is it irrational to disapprove of the destruction of your own country by a vile, lawless government? I really don't see how this translates into "hate".

[A-Schwarzenegger]

167. No, not necessarily at all.

I'm opposed to BushCo, rationally I think, but I know how easy it is to hate, and hate goes into a non-rational place that has its own rules and realities. Sometimes it's hard not to hate. With Tammy Faye, looking at her on Larry King, right next to death, death inside her, I feel my own mortality, and that kind of helps me to identify with her rather than hate her for what she's done, whether she's amended for it or not.

The question at hand is why on a progressive board, where people are expected to be driven by positive values (compassion, helping the downtrodden, fair & just government, etc.), such flagrant bile gets spewed by a notable number against people when they die. It interests me, that's all.

In my view, part of the reason is that the board was in part born out of a hatred (strong negative emotional psychological force) of Bush and his cronies and who and what they are and what they do and what they stand for. I believe that for some, that hatred is the main prevailing driving force to be in politics and on DU. And for those, however many, it's easy and it makes sense to hate anybody who they identify with the RW cause, and to completely dehumanize them so hating them seems like the right thing to do, rather than being self-destructive. That's all. I could be wrong.

[HughBeaumont]

65. I see it as being here for love. Of our country.

And the hate is for what's being done to it by Failure Fuhrer's "cronies, bathe in the money pile NOW" policies.

As illustrated by the unfairness of Mrs Messner's condition, one being how we're defunding science, health care and stem-cell research monies in favor of the Penta-sewer and that needless soldier morgue.

We want things BETTER. And they're not GETTING better as long as profit ru(i)ns this country.

It's a disgusting shame that some people love money SO much that helping others in need becomes less than secondary on the plate of needs.

Her appearance is not only indicative of failure to help just her. It's a statement that brings to light the less-than-dust-speck importance our leaders on both sides of the fence; the catalysts and enablers of this usurpation, place towards the human condition in general.

But hey, profit trumps everything. War is profitable. Helping people isn't.

We're a completely callous nation that we continue to elect people that continue to allow this to happen.

I'm not saying stopping the war would have saved Tammy Faye.

What I'm saying is that stopping it and funding stem-cell and cancer research and universal health care instead could maybe, 20-30 years down the road, prevent cases like hers. And diabetes. And sickle-cell anemia. And other genetic anomalies which humans undeservedly suffer from.

And it all comes back to this question - how much do we LOVE our country? How long are we going to let this go on? Why is it so BAD for US to ask our supposed "leaders" to actually DO something for someone other than themeselves and their bedfellows?

[acmavm]

139. And you know that how?

[JustJoe]

170. delete

...

[liberalhistorian]

49. Amen and THANK YOU! It was like when people were glad

that Reagan had died and were making fun of his Alzheimers; my stepdad is in the last stages of Alzheimer's and they had no idea of what the horror was like.

I've been really sickened by this, too. We're better than this, or at least, we're supposed to be.

And I'm sorry you've had to deal with the nightmare of friends/family who've had cancer. No one deserves that, I don't care who they are. Some things transcend politics. Or at least SHOULD transcend politics.

[madrchsod]

52. some people do not understand

that if they feel that she was a con she has paid the price while here on earth. lest one has never wronged then they should at least show some compassion and if not i feel sorry for them..

[Swamp Rat]

53. Dammit!

I didn't want to see this photo of her! That is why I avoided CNN etc. this week. :cry:

It resurrects painful memories of losing family and friends to cancer.

Poor Tammy! :cry:

[cboy4]

58. I know, I'm sorry I didn't put a disclaimer. I just wanted

a certain person to see what cancer does to people and why he was so out of line with his posts (which I see have been deleted thankfully.)

[Swamp Rat]

59. .

:hug:

I want to remember her this way:

[cboy4]

64. That's beautiful. Me too.

:hug:

[nadine_mn]

218. Thank you for the pic

I was stunned when I saw Tammy on the tv....I fondly remember plump checks and clumped eyelashes...

I have posted many times that I am not a fan of gravedancing for anyone...and I am glad to see I am not the only one. I admit I have not seen the Eyes of Tammy Faye....did not know about it even. However now I want to see it. I am sad to her pass in such an awful way...rest in peace

[xchrom]

56. recommend

[FloridaJudy]

57. People can be jerks.

I genuinely believe that Progressives have a lower-than-average Jerk Quotient, but we still have our share. I suspect that even in a remote Buddhist monastery, a few monks would have jerk-worthy qualities (all that bopping of the novices because they aren't yet enlightened). I myself have acted like a complete jerk on more occasions than I care to remember. I figure I've made some spiritual progress because it makes me wince to recall some things I've written or done.

So it doesn't surprise me that some DU'ers have acted with a lack of compassion. While I hope we'd be better behaved than the average doofus, it isn't going to happen that all of us are going to act like thoughtful adults. That's why "ignore" was invented.

That said, RIP Tammy-Faye. You turned out to be a remarkable lady. I hope you find joy and serenity with your God.

[CGrantt57]

60. I used to watch Tammy Faye...

and my friends and I would have a grand old time talking back to the TV and making fun of Jim and Tammy and all their ilk.

Jim never deserves any less.

Tammy deserves far more, now.

For five years after the scandals hit and the shit flew, she stood by her man and her marriage.

She continued to minister to people and serve her Lord as best as she knew how.

The woman went through years of hell and emerged stronger and wiser on the other end.

Even her final interview was given to serve a purpose for others, not herself.

We could do far worse than following Tammy's example of service in her latter years.

Go in peace, Tammy. I hope the angels sing you to your rest.

[buddhamama]

69. thank you

beautifully said.

I never once doubted Tammy's faith was sincere; the love and compassion that was Tammy is proof of it.

I, for one, will miss her. :cry:

May You be at Peace, Tammy. :hug:

[cboy4]

61. Here is the Larry King interview if you missed it:

**WARNING -- It is shocking to see her and in my opinion, devastating to watch**

However, I found it inspiring because she fought till the end.

I have to stop writing now because I'm crying again.

I'm so sad. I'm still mourning Molly's death and now this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMlsKWSzjw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c539bPRCqWw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFrWrOE8Cp8

[pokercat999]

62. Tammy Faye and Jim were simply con-men (persons?).

For someone with a little larceny in their heart this is not such a bad thing. For a progressive the fact that their victims were the poorest and weakest among us is unforgivable. Had they conned corporations out of millions it would be at the least forgivable and maybe even a little admirable.

[B Calm]

67. spot on!!

[Bluebear]

68. 'Had they conned corporations out of millions it would be at the least forgivable'

No, that would be criminal.

>>"and maybe even a little admirable."<<

Are you keeping a shrine to Ken Lay?

What a ridiculous statement. No progressive should excuse the crimes you speak of.

[pokercat999]

95. looking for that "tongue in cheek" simlie now

lighten up

A little criminality can be a good thing. Ken Lay didn't con anyone he flat out stole. What Jim and Tammy were doing was a totally transparent con-job and they got away with it for years. The fact that "Preachers" all over the world are still, this very Sunday, perpetuating the same con is laughable to me. Suckers are everywhere and religion of every kind is the biggest and oldest con game going.

Now that last sentence I am VERY serious about.

Please, enjoy the rest of the day.

[donheld]

72. Like is said to someone else. You go right ahead, Throw the first stone

If you're so without sin.

[mwb970]

81. I have no sympathy for charlatans.

Remember when Tammy blamed the downfall of their hypocritical "ministry" on "people who are jealous of our success"? Apparently the cheating and fraud that Bakker was convicted of had nothing to do with it.

She is just another in the long, sad line of hypocritical "Christians" who refuse to accept responsibility for the consequences of their illegal/hateful/perverted actions.

Nothing to see here, folks. Time to move on.

[Subdivisions]

63. I went to bed last night on the sour note to which you allude.

I've been on DU for a couple years (including the time I spent lurking) and last nite was as bad as I've seen it get, even after the death of Jerry Falwell.

It's good to wake up this morining to see this in defense of those whose deaths seem to bring out the worst in some people. Yes, Tammy Faye was not perfect but she tried everyday to atone for her misguided deeds. And she sure as hell didn't deserve the vitriol heaved at her here last nite in this forum. No one does.

[PoconoPragmatist]

74. Can You Not Make A Case For Understanding??

Can you not understand where that vitriol comes from? There's a lot of people she hurt. See my previous post #73. I said all I could...and all that needs be said, in that post.

[Subdivisions]

84. Your words in post #73 are indeed valid. But, it's one thing to

feel hurt by the actions of Tammy Faye those years ago. It's entirely another to start a thread on THIS board entitled, "The 'I don't give a fuck about Tammy Faye' Thread" immediately following the announcement of her death and hoping that she burns in hell.

[PoconoPragmatist]

145. BUT

Condemning the one who posted that is stooping to that same level, is it not?

Unless this was posted by a complete troll (a wolkf in sheep's clothing) and not a TRUE Democrat or DU'er...how does condemnation of the poster of such a thread end up achieving the stated goal of the OP?? That Democrats ought be "better people." The OP could demonstrate just how a "better person" acts by withholding condemnation, and instead showing compassion and understanding for one who is so very obviously hurting.

Maybe even encourage that person to speak about WHY they are so hurt that they have such poisonous feelings in them. Sometimes, it is necessary to get those feelings out. Rather than condemning a person for having those feelings (to feel is human)...and rather than condemning them for expressing those feelings in a way which, quite frankly, is not appropriate...how about encouraging such a person to talk about those feelings...and to vent them and get them out in a constructive and positive way? that's all I'm saying.

Obviously...if the poster of the mentioned thread was a complete troll, then there is no changing them. But why assume one is a troll when, really, they just may be hurting very badly, and chose a tactless and inappropriate method of expressing that hurt? Show them compassion, and teach then to deal with and come to terms with those feelings, and to express them in a more appropriate and healing fashion.

Nothing is gained by condemnation. It only serves to drive people away, and serves to reinforce the negative, poisonous feelings that they had already expressed. Have you any idea what it feels like to be an outcast...to feel totally alone...and then to be rebuked for feeling...by the one group with whom you normally would feel welcome, and a part of?

[DeSwiss]

71. RIP Tammy

Cboy4, very well put.

K&R!!!

[PoconoPragmatist]

73. Don't Condemn People Who Simply Are Not Strong Enough To Forgive

This woman, before she "embraced gay youth" etc...she hurt a hell of a lot of people with her hypocritical religiousity. some people who get hurt simply are not able to forgive. they are not strong enough.

I tend to be of this type. To me...forgiveness is telling the wrongdoer - it's okay, here, do it to me again!! Which is why I generally can't forgive those who have hurt me - in spite of what the Bible, or Jesus says...despite the fact I know it supposedly "makes me a bigger, better person." sometimes, I just don't want to be a bigger, better person...I simply want revenge. I want to hurt that person every bit as bad as they hurt me. I want them to suffer the way they made me suffer.

Does that make me a horrible person? No. It makes me human...and it makes me someone who is hurting very badly.

SO...if YOU are a real DU'er...instead of condemning those "grave dancers" why not show some compassion for them instead? They are hurting. Why not help heal their hurt...and perhaps, someday, after their hurting is healed...they can then become the "better people" you seem to think every Democrat or DU'er ought to be.

I've been there. Hurt is real. Being hurt is not easy to forgive. Despite that we may know it is the "right" thing to do...sometimes, there is such satisfaction in revenge...and in seeing someone who hurt us "get theirs." Yeah, you might think that is sick...but I understand where those people are coming from.

Maybe you never were GLBT...never were oppressed, hated, ostracized, denied your civil rights, human liberties and dignities, just because someone did not like "your lifestyle" as if it was a choice!! maybe you don't know what that feels like and how much it hurts.

I'm sorry for Tammy Faye...no one really deserves to go the way she did...and yes, in her later life, she did see the light, and become a more compassionate, caring, loving person who, yes, did enbrace even gay youth...becoming far more "Christian" than she ever was while with Jim. but I can't condemn the "grave dancers." They are hurting. I can show them compassion. I can show them love, strength, courage, and hope. Perhaps someday, they might become the "better people" you desire.

But condemning them isn't going to make them become the "better people" you desire. It is only going to hurt them more and drive them away. Instead of condemning them...why not prove YOUR DUism, by showing your compassion instead?

What a novel concept!!

[clixtox]

76. Deep!

Your post seems to have put this whole matter in enough perspective to satisfy everyone. Amazing post! Thank you

[PoconoPragmatist]

82. They Don't Call Me PoconoPragmatist for No Reason!! Thanks, n/t

[LostinVA]

85. The OP is gay and

Tammy Faye Baker was quite pro-gay.

[buddhamama]

88. yes.

she stood against her conservative counterparts and welcomed the Gay community, preaching acceptance and love through the PTL. she drew strength from her faith and believed everyone should be loved. she raised a loving son who continues to the spread the word, her words.

[LostinVA]

188. Exactly

Her treatment of AIDS patients in the 80's alone should earn her some kudos.

And, her son turned out to be a really neat kid.

[Randypiper]

77. The Huffington Post has closed comments on their Tammy Fay article

All posts are gone, I wonder if it was because of the tone?
The commenters there can get quite nasty.

[IndyOp]

78. Why are people attacking Tammy Faye? We are fear-full creatures.

The "Just World Effect" is a concept in social psychology - it occurs when we explain bad events in other people's lives in terms of their internal characteristics - bad decision-making, immorality.

The original research on the just-world effect looked at how family members explain child abuse - a situation in which the victim is clearly not at fault. Nonetheless most family members say that the child did something - they had it coming - the baby cried too much, the toddler grabbed something they weren't supposed to have, the kid smarted off and so the bruises and broken bones they received were obviously their own fault.

Why do people do that? We explain bad events in other people's lives as being their own fault because it reassures us that it won't happen to us. The world is basically fair and the good things I have are because I am a good person. The bad things that happen to other people are because they did something bad/they are bad people.

Where do we see the just-world bias?

In rape cases it is worse for the prosecution to have a majority female jury than it is to have a majority male jury. Why aren't women more likely to convict a rapist? Rape is more likely to happen to women so they are more likely to believe that the woman who was raped did something that allowed the rape to happen. We blame the victim so we believe it could never happen to us.

Death of a teenager elicits no response from community that has recently been outraged by the burning of a kitten. The community can see the kitten as an innocent, but will suspect that the teen was somehow at fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Since World War II there have been people who blamed the Jews for having been victims of the Holocaust. Why didn't they see it coming? Why didn't they refuse to get on the trains? Why didn't they... The bigger and scarier the event the more likely we will blame the victim.

Hurricane Katrina. Why didn't those people (the poor, the vulnerable sick/old, the tourists) get themselves out of there? Why is anyone so stupid as to live in a place where a hurricane (earthquake, tornado, flood...) could wipe them out? We blame the victim so we believe it could never happen to us.

Tammy Faye - the fact that people are blaming her for her cancer and death reinforces the core belief/illusion that if something bad happens to someone it is because they deserve it.

In my opinion, you can't stop people from wallowing in the illusive security they get from their just-world beliefs by telling them they ought to snap out of it. Criticizing them just feels like an attack to them and it reinforces their fearful beliefs about the world.

Educate. We all need to get in touch with how often we feel fear and embrace the emotion when it comes so it will taper off and we can see and think clearly. Good parenting, good community-building helps people recognize their emotions and how emotion can distort thinking and behavior so that they can think and act more morally.

Namaste.

[PoconoPragmatist]

83. Excellent Post!!

In a different way, you say many of the same things I did in mine. Are you my unknown twin, separated at birth??

[IndyOp]

98. Maybe! I liked your post, too - forgiveness can be very hard work.

I think the most important thing I've learned about forgiveness is this: "Holding onto resentment is like trying to hurt someone else by injecting poison into my own body."

My forgiving or not forgiving someone may impact someone who is/remains in my daily life, but it doesn't impact anyone I've pushed out of my life or who was never in my life to begin with.

I think, often when I am unable to forgive, it winds up being all about my being afraid I'll get hurt again. I believe - at an unconscious level - that if I hold onto my anger I'll be able to recognize and defend myself if a similar situation arises again.

It's taken me decades to realize that this just doesn't work. Holding onto my rage about my childhood abuser actually lead me toward the men in my adult life who were abusive, I think.

I absolutely believe that we can and should make judgments about our own and other's behavior - some behaviors are wrong and should not be tolerated, period.

Holding onto resentment doesn't make me any more prepared to deal effectively with people whose behavior should not be tolerated.

:hi:

[PoconoPragmatist]

127. Indeed, It Can

And you just hit on another thing I said in my original post, again, in a different way...

"I think, often when I am unable to forgive, it winds up being all about my being afraid I'll get hurt again. I believe - at an unconscious level - that if I hold onto my anger I'll be able to recognize and defend myself if a similar situation arises again."

Very true. even though on an intellectual level, I know this...there is a part of me...an emotional level...a more base instinct, and even a visceral reaction - that is not easy to overcome...and I even find myself often in that place. We're only human. And I believe that, rather than condemning the "grave dancers" (and I do not share the grave dancers joy at Mrs. Messner's passing) we should show them compassion, love, and understanding. They are hurting, and they are lashing out at the one who hurt them...or, at least a symbol of all those who have hurt them.

condemning them for this is not going to make them "the better people" that the OP believes they should be. It will only cause them to feel attacked, more hurt...and more likely to withdraw, and to tune out the message the OP is trying to give. Rather than condemnation, then, we should try to salve their wounds, bind them up...show them compassion, mercy and hope...with the eventual goal and hope being that one day, those who are now hurting...may be strong enough to overcome that...and to forgive...and to feel the way the OP apparently does with regards to Mrs. Messner's passing.

But condemning those who are not always strong enough to fight those baser instincts...those visceral, emotional feelings...is not the answer of one who truly is compassionate.

[burythehatchet]

89. Agree. It's an uninspired interpretation of the Law of Karma.

the whole "he had it coming" thing.

[ourbluenation]

101. Terrfic post! Thank you for your reason. n/t

[burythehatchet]

87. I probably agree with your sentiment, but damn if I'm going to judge everyone's response

Without going into a dissertation on the harmfulness of judgment as a uniquely human dynamic, I'll just reference one of the Christian sayings, "judge not lest ye be judged".

By the same token, it is equally judgmental to declare that the passing of one person or another is a cause for celebration or mourning.

Having said that, when CHeney croaks I will be celebrating like never before.

[helderheid]

90. I hadn't heard she's passed. RIP dear lady - you are a true sweetheart.

Much love to you Tammy Faye.

:loveya: :cry: :loveya:

[seabeyond]

93. thank you for your post n/t

[terrya]

94. Thank you.

RIP, Tammy Faye. You will be missed.

[Tab]

96. It's a sad way to go

I don't care for their form of "religion".

I think, though, that Tammy Faye was a lost soul. Even just her outrageous makeup makes one believe she's trying (badly) to fit in. She just seemed like a lost puppy.

Her last interview, no, that's brave for anyone who is dealing with this stuff.

So I wish her no ill will, and hope she's in a better place.

I question your assertion that people were "grave dancing surrounding Steve Irwin's death". Why would anyone do that?

Unlike some republicans, I can separate the person from the deed (if separation is possible, which it not always is). I don't like some of the stuff Jim and Tammy were pushing, but in the end, as a person, Tammy came to reality and had a lot to deal with, and dealt with it honorably. Would that we all do such a good job.

So, RIP, Tammy.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

97. As other posters have observed, forgiveness is not always forthcoming, even from

those who embrace progressive and truly compassionate political philosophies.

I wonder if any of us would ultimately want to be judged by the worst mistakes/actions of our lives, as many are doing with Ms. Baker.

She could have pulled a Katherine Harris and obstinately believed she was a victim, even as she continued to victimize.

Or, she could have just dropped off the radar, and kept to herself, living the rest of her years in obscurity and hiding.

Yet, she took another fork in the road, a road "less traveled". She leveraged her fame and notoriety for the purpose helping others.

She saw the light years ago. It seems there are some here for whom that light is still hidden.

MKJ

[michaz]

99. My son died 5 days before his 16th birthday from an undetected heart problem.

He was at soccer practice and died on the field at his high school. Did he deserve it? Did we deserve to go through the worst thing we have ever gone through? Did his friends that had to watch this at their young age deserve to see this and feel their pain? I think not! It happens. Bad things do happen to all of us. Somewhere along the line of life we all get things like this that happen in our families. As people we all mourn and grieve at some point. If you love someone or something like a pet, when they die you mourn. It is the process of life!

[Lars39]

108. My condolances, michaz.

:hug:

[jpgray]

102. It's ridiculous. I assume the bashers don't really know anything beyond the scandal

[ElboRuum]

103. There are a lot of people in this country...

...liberal and conservative alike, who are not very kind people.

It is as much a fallacy to expect everyone on the left to be kind and generous as it is to expect everyone on the right to be cold and heartless.

To a degree, I understand their reasons. This is a woman who, for most of her life, has been preaching, along with her husband, the very exclusivist and painful lies of a deeply vengeful God. Her repentance, to some, would ring hollow because of all the irreparable damage she's done. I for one was simply happy to see this woman crawl out from under the lies and institutionalized hatred that she and her husband exploited to gather their flock, all the same believing honestly that she was doing God's work.

But that's why I can't really get too offended by the grave-dancing. Everyone needs release. Release from the frustration of all efforts to speak the gospel of kindness to people who intractably refuse to see the errors of such a misguided philosophy. True, for now, those who have indulged in this bitter fruit seem unkind, callous, cold. I have no doubt, though, that they may, one day, look at what they've written here and feel a deep pang of regret for indulging the hate and disgust that they'd otherwise condemn in others.

We are not saints. We are not meant to be. We are but mere mortals, with all the failings and foibles that goes with being human. Be as hard on them as you like, but ask yourself if you've ever indulged your own capacity for evil, in the privacy of your own thoughts, and ask if you can really claim to not understand what motivates those that take such inappropriate glee?

I forgive Tammy her faults.
I forgive those who can't forgive her.

[Wetzelbill]

104. There are without a doubt hatemongers around here

People who dance on the graves of some of the people you mentioned. The one that blew me away was Aaron Spelling. There were people who hated the guy because he created some television shows. It was way beyond what any rational anger should be. Between that and all the other reactions to deaths, I was just sickened.

DU is an imperfect place. I think A-Schwarzenegger is right when he says that some people are here mainly out of hate. They are. Not a lot of them are, but they do exist. That's why you get people who get irrational over certain candidates and their positions. Not just a little mad, but completely irrational. Four years ago, I remember people posting threads about how they supported a certain candidate and some people would make disturbing replies, right then and there, I started realizing that DU, like anywhere else, has people who have some serious issues. It's just how it is, you get any group of people together and you'll find someone who has some problems in that group. Hate is a big problem in our country. Progressives aren't exempt from it. People who hate tend to demand absolute perfection from the figures they turn their anger towards. An absolute perfection that none of us could probably live up to. Nobody is perfect, but some people will go out of their way to find a reason to be angry. And I don't mean rational anger, and I'm not talking about people who legitimately hate a guy like Bush. Bush hatred can be irrational, for sure, but a lot of the time people viably feel that way for many reasons.

Now there are those who can articulate their anger, who are rational and specific, and that is a definite major difference. No the people who hate raise alarm bells pretty quickly. They always find a way to hate, that's the first thing they go for. It's all negative and not unlike the irrational hatred directed at people of different races or lifestyles. It's very much related. I think probably the worst thing I ever saw was somebody here on DU posted about a serious domestic situation they were in the middle of, and somebody who replied kept saying things, that could have conceivably gotten the person seriously injured or killed. They would not let up either. It was bizarre. So these type of problems do exist on a Liberal message board, just like anywhere else. It exists, and we have to deal with it as best as possible.

Also, I respected Tammy Faye. Whatever faults she had, she, at least, took steps toward redemption. I personally believe she wholly redeemed herself. I have nothing but empathy for her. I have had several relatives and a childhood friend die of cancer. I watched people waste away on that disease. My writing hero, and a friend of mine, died of cancer. It was all harrowing. I coauthored a book a few years ago in which we gave all proceeds to cancer research. Tammy Faye didn't deserve to go out that way, nor did she deserve the hateful comments.

[blondeatlast]

106. The haters will not get my respect.

Because so few are identified before a tragedy like this happens, I will draw them out, then ignore them. I hated Jerry Falwell in life, but I held my tongue at his death. A little etiquette goes a long way.

K&R, cboy4. Thank you.

[Lindsey]

113. Tammy Faye did an about turn and imho truly embraced the real

teachings of Jesus. She was sincere and felt that we are all God's children as opposed the Jerry Fallwells and the Pat Robertsons beliefs that only a selected few were. She along with her son Jamie, embraced the gay community and were active in bringing more awareness to AIDS/HIV. The significance of this cause can't be underestimated. Jesus reached out to the sick who were ostracized (the least among you) - and the gays and those afflicted with AIDS are now in that category. That's who Tammy Faye reached out to and embraced. R.I.P Tammy Faye. You were loved by many.

[blondeatlast]

142. Tammy Faye may have been the only one of the preachers who really was reborn in her faith.

What a courageous woman--and what a loss for the world.

At least she's now in His restful embrace.

[blondeatlast]

143. I hope you understand I was referring to the hateful posts I've seen about

her death; I was on the bords last night and was shocked and saddened by what I read from some posters.

I very much admire Tammy Faye.

[Faygo Kid]

107. It seems to me that the vast majority of comments were respectful and sympathetic

I fear you may be casting your critical net far too broadly - the implication of your post is that there are many hurtful comments, but the proportion of sympathetic comments to nasty ones is very high indeed. (For instance, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2925594&mesg_id=2925594).

Although some of the comment does not reflect well on the posters, she was a public figure, and this is a forum where we are free to disagree. There is much to criticize on DU, but I frankly don't see this as one that rises to this Greatest Post level.

[rasputin1952]

109. "To err is human, to forgive, divine"...Who of us can say we've never

made errors in our lives that have had negative affects on others, then see the error, and attempt to correct it?

Tammy Fay was neither angel nor demon, she was human, and as prone to mistakes as the rest of us. What makes her different, is that it appears that she realized her errors and her human frailty...and then corrected the course she had taken.

Each of us can learn a lesson from this, regardless of where we stand on many issues. How many can say they will face the certainty of death w/the courage and conviction this woman had? Say what you will, she was a woman of courage...she stood up for gay rights, Civil Rights, healthcare and other social issues in her last years, when such issues weren't even glanced at by most of us.

For those that find some kind of "joy" in the death of this woman....have any of you even come close to some of the things she accomplished on a humanitarian level?

She was just as flawed as the rest of us, maybe more so, maybe less so...but near the end, she found herself, and fought for the underdog right up to the end. This is more than many of us are capable of.

RIP Tammy Faye...There are many here who know what you accomplished...O8)

[Trajan]

110. While I understand the passion regarding threads like this ....

I greatly doubt more than 0.3% of DU even mentioned their feelings about this subject ....

You will always get those who promote their own feelings about things over the need to maintain basic humane values .... This is nothing new here or anywhere ....

As much as I dislike it, it is really a VERY VERY small proportion of DU that takes that kind of position ....

And hence: It is hardly worth getting all Jeremiah about it ....

[debbierlus]

111. I bet yeah they are trolls - true DU'ers don't dance on graves

Tammy was a unique individual who really blossomed in later life.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

125. I'm afraid I think you're too kind to DUers - grave-dancing is one of their favourite sports.

It's striking that even on this thread, what seems to be being said is "This woman wasn't bad enough to justify dancing on her grave", not "dancing on people's graves is disgusting and contemptible, and we shouldn't do it no matter who they are".

When someone dies, you should respect their death and their loved ones by refraining from calling them names, just for a little while, no matter how much you hate and despise them.

But, sadly, showing how brave and honest you are by insulting the deceased always appeals.

[_dynamicdems]

116. Thank you for this post. K&R n/t

[northernsoul]

118. She was easy to make fun of in the 80's

but despite her public appearance, she was a very decent, compassionate person. May she rest in peace.

[sofa king]

121. (In case I didn't know.)

As a matter of fact, I didn't know Tammy Faye embraced gay youth. And you know what? I think that's pretty damned important.

No, it's not important that a vapid, histrionic con-artist eventually embraced a cause which might somehow garner her more sympathy and public attention. It's important that I didn't know and never did until now.

I'll bet that most people don't know; fewer care, and still fewer are going to remember it. It's as insignificant as Josef Mengele's post-Nazi career as a construction worker.

The damage is already done, and nothing she could do afterward could repair it. Her legacy as one of the primary evangelical jackals of our time is permanently secured. And that is important to remember.

[Bluebear]

123. I'm sorry, but you are so wrong!

..fewer care, and still fewer are going to remember it...The damage is already done, and nothing she could do afterward could repair it. Her legacy as one of the primary evangelical jackals of our time is permanently secured. And that is important to remember.

"The Eyes of Tammy Faye"? Constant television appearances since the 80's? Even the MSM reports of her death mention the PTL days but seem to focus as much on her life and times since then. No charges were ever filed against her. I believe the jackal designation will haunt her ex-husband and not her.

[terisan]

124. I think Tammy Faye was a perfectly fine but flawed person. Never heard her speak ill of anyone. n/t

[skepticscott]

133. And would you have?

Did you ever bother to talk to people who MIGHT have spoken ill of her? Did you ever talk to the people who had their trust betrayed by Tammy and her husband, and who were bilked out of their money by the activity that Tammy and many others conspired in for YEARS? This was not a mistake or a momentary lapse in judgement..it was something that was carried on deliberately for a long time, with no expression of remorse until AFTER they'd been found out, which is to say, no remorse at all worth considering.

[Rex]

128. I hated her guts as a teen, couldn't believe she would beg from elderly

people on social security - sick. Like I said in another thread - I feel horrible for her now, well not now she can RIP. NO ONE deserves to die like she did! I don't care WHAT they did in the past and yes I do believe she worked hard to clear her name after she left Jim (best decision she ever made IMO).

RIP Tammy.

[Maat]

129. I have not, as yet, commented.

I was too busy yesterday supporting my GLBT brothers and sisters in the San Diego Pride Parade. I got up at 6:30, picked people up, got the Prius to the float staging area, decorated it, managed to not kill or injure anyone as I paced myself through the parade (I was the 'float driver'), managed to wave to each side of the crowd steadily, and got the car to the 'end' area, where we de-decorated it. Then, I took my kid to the Zoo (meeting my sister and her daughter, who are always nearby when I do something important, in case of emergency). So, I got home at 10, and dropped into bed, as did Beloved Daughter (the night before, we had to get literature ready - I usually ride with PFLAG, as a PFLAGer, but this year, I was the Kucinich car).

We had fun! I'll post pictures tomorrow.

Then, I heard the news. May she rest in peace. I truly appreciate what she did for gay youth also. Anyone of else can get led down the road by a spouse or a partner. There's no way she had the education to understand the whole mess. Anyway, she turned it around. I pray she transitioned successfully, and is resting now. I mourn the person who worked with gay youth, and who tried to tell others that they were Spirit's perfection.

Take care, Cboy4, and thank you for the thread.



:hi:

[DemGa]

131. I have not one unkind thing to say about her

I don't know much about her, but she was human, God Bless.

[CadenBlaker]

134. That's sad.

Anyone who's happy over someone else's death, that isn't Jerry Falwell or Hitler should be ashamed. These are two people that created hatred and death in this world, so that could be understandable.

However, I watched Tammy the other night and I was moved by her faith, and her ability to love. I thought, she was handling her situation in a fashion that I don't believe I could. Although I do not believe in religion I believe she did, and she felt she was moving on and tried her best not to fear her fate. I also believe, that when she said she loved everyone, she meant it. Others could learn from her no matter what your ideology.

[mzmolly]

137. "All Christians aren't like Jerry Falwell. All Christians don't judge." ~ Tammy Faye Baker Messner

More here: http://www.well-rounded.com/movies/reviews/tammyfaye_intv.html

When you had a gay AIDS patient on, crying out for the church to accept him, how were you treated by other Christians?

I got my share of being put down for it. But we were teaching people that this is God's way—the Christian way—to do things. And we're going to serve God the way the Bible says and not the way people say. I felt that it was a real learning experience.

Hypocrisy is definitely one of the things that has kept me from the church.

That's why we have to look to God and not look to people, because it's the people who are hypocritical, not God. All Christians aren't like Jerry Falwell. All Christians don't judge. People have to learn to put their faith in God and not in man. Man will fail you all the time. Your best friend, no matter how much you love them or they love you, will fail you sometimes. God will never fail you and that's what helped me to make it through what I've been through.

Thanks for the post cboy4.

[PoconoPragmatist]

147. More People Need To Hear Tammy's Message!! Thanks For Sharing!

It's a pity that such a reasoned, compassionate TRULY Christian voice has been silenced before its time...and too bad she had to suffer as she did. No one deserves to go that way. God rest your soul, Tammy. I hope now you truly are in a better place...a place where you must no longer endure suffering...and a place where you can know peace.

[defendandprotect]

138. Why are you suggesting that anyone here is dancing on her grave?????

I am simply against the lies and myths that often surround funerals --

Let's tell the truth about Tammy and her role in organized patriarchal religious scams --

from which she and her family highly benefitted.

Cancer sucks -- but it's not only Tammy Faye who has suffered this disease.

And, if this were a Democrat -- maybe Cindy Sheehan -- wouldn't we be hearing from the right-wing-nuts that she couldn't resist the spotlight even as she was dying????

Stop looking for false arguments and face reality --

[evilkumquat]

141. Like a Serial Killer Being Caught...

...it is the old "I'm so glad you finally caught me, 'coz I couldn't stop myself" argument, which is bullshit. No psychopath is ever glad to have his reign-of-terror ended and be imprisoned.

The only reason Tammy Faye "repented" of her earlier ways was because she and her mewling husband got CAUGHT!

If nothing had come from the Jessica Hahn scandal, rest assured they would have been going on just like they did in the early days, unless they pulled an Atwater-like "deathbed repentance".

I think of myself as extremely liberal (for example, my right leg is significantly longer than my left from all the leaning), yet I cannot muster any sympathy for her passing... truth be told, not even for the manner in which she went.

Like Nixon, Reagan and Ford, all my sympathy is spent on those Tammy Faye and her ex-husband hurt with their nauseating con jobs, not with the perps themselves. I mean, what about all those people dying of heart disease and cancer in the 1980's who put their money and faith in these snake-charmers instead of in a medical profession which, while probably not being able to cure them, at least could have kept their suffering to a minimum?

What about the gullible, impressionable seniors who lived in poverty eating dog food spending the majority of their income so that Tammy Faye and her ilk could live in obscene luxury with air-conditioned doghouses?

So she repented later on? So she was not "as bad" as the others at the time?

Screw her. Seriously. I mean it: screw her.

Evil Kumquat

[spoony]

162. Lame

From your claims to being "extremely liberal" but hating a cancer victim to your repetitive, dumb little name (clue: you don't need to have it as your user name, then sign it, AND have a sig line about it with a link no less), there is literally nothing worthwhile about your post.

[evilkumquat]

168. Ouch

Ouch! My pride!

Evil Kumquat

PS. If there was nothing worthwhile about my post, what about a post that takes the time to point out how worthless the post is?

I mean, do we have to use imaginary numbers to determine the worthlessness of your post?

PPS. It is nothing short of amazing how many people in here personally attack the messenger rather than debate what was said.

Spoony, if you have a problem with what I said, why not say why? Also, rather than attack my method of forum posting, why not attack something easier like my weight or baldness?

[spoony]

184. Then post a picture next time.

Lol. Seriously though, your little rant about the late Ms. Messner WAS cartoonish, and there's little to argue about in it. Basically you're just shitting on a repentant person whilst claiming how strong your lib cred is, which is as stunning a dissonance as I've recently seen here, and to top it off you present yourself as a demented veg. What is anyone supposed to make of all that?

[evilkumquat]

202. Color Me Cynical

I have a very difficult time in accepting "repentance" from people who maintained their fame or wealth or who never saw a day of prison after their crimes or hypocrisy were exposed.

The world is full of "repentant" people who conveniently only saw the error of their ways after their lives came crashing down.

Now, if Eyelashes had left Bakker during the highlight of their PTL days, admitting their whole spiel was a scam and gave her fortune away to charity long before Hahn spread her legs, I would have an easier time believing the hype.

Show me a serial killer who turned himself in to police in remorse before the FBI traced him through a used computer disk.

Show me a child molester who turned himself in and paid restitution to his victims before being moved to another congregation.

Show me a Senator who quit his job after being diapered by a prostitute before Larry Flynt forced the issue.

My point is, the world is full of people who truly deserve sympathy and the ex-Ms. Bakker is way down that list.

Her and her ilk helped Reagan during the 80's. She was part of a movement that ruined lives... that is still ruining lives because of the policies they helped foster. Bakker, Swaggart, Falwell, Graham and all their kind... all cut from the same cloth.

Incidentally, cancer treatment is extremely expensive. I cannot help but think of all the cancer sufferers during the PTL heyday that could have spent their dwindling money supply on treatment or painkillers to maintain the dignity of their lives but who were suckered by these BASTARDS like the Bakkers, et. al. to send their money in to maintain a lavish lifestyle for those hypocrites, and that some of that money that could have kept them alive went instead to Eyelash's treatment when it was her turn to need the chemo.

Evil Kumquat

[Az]

144. To be honest

I never paid close enough attention to her. When she was a full blown evangelist I saw her as a sideshow freak sort of thing. When she got into trouble with her husband I saw her as debris. I took note of when she came around on the matters of gay rights and such. But I can't help shake the feeling that what she was really enthralled with was that there was another group that would pay attention to her. She says she was saved by the gay community.

I admit I didn't pay close attention to her. Raising awareness of gay rights is certainly a good thing in my book. But I don't honestly know that that was her motivation.

I can lament her passing and grant her sympathy for how she passed. But I don't know that I can praise her life. I don't know enough and what I am aware of leaves me with the sense that she thrived on being the center of attention. Educate me if I am wrong on this count.

[swimmernsecretsea]

146. Thank you for saying this.

It needed to be said. Tammy Faye would have been pleased that you're raising the level of discourse here. At times, I've been disappointed as well. I've written here and elsewhere of how I regretted making assumptions about Tammy Faye Messner, as people had done to me, but I admire her now. She taught me that I still have much to learn. Thank you.

[leftofthedial]

148. who is happy?

She suffered horribly.

She literally just seemed to be shrinking away to nothing--to the point that she had almost no place left to spackle on the eye shadow.

Sad, really.

[bluerum]

149. OK. So I am an asshole my whole life then have deathbed epiphany.

My wife died a horrible death from cancer. I don't expect sympathy from anyone - republican or democrat. Neither did she. And she did not get to go on CNN or "The Larry Thing Lives."

But when you run a sham organization that preys on spiritually starved people and make a damn fine living at it - well you need to do more than suffer and die in my eyes.

Perhaps if she had lived she may have done something positive to change my opinion of her and her ilk.

But we all die. Its not like she has traveled down a path that the rest of us never will.

I can say that when I meet her in hell, or heaven, or whatever, I will not feel ashamed. I wonder if she will be able to say the same?

[file83]

210. Beautifully put, bluerum.

"But we all die. It's not like she has traveled down a path that the rest of us never will."

Exactly.

It's strange that when "notorious" or "controversial" people die, somehow that makes them special and that all opinions against that person must be silenced. "Show some respect,"they plea.

Curious expectation, that.

The fact of the matter is that when someone "controversial" dies, its normal for the general population to express their opinion about that person, both good and bad.

If somebody is authorized to decide what opinions are acceptable or not about any particular person, I'd like to see their credentials which grant that authority.

Until then, all these people who claim that death should act as the protector of reputations, please go place flowers by Hitler's grave. After all, the man is dead, show some respect. (:sarcasm:)

[cyclezealot]

151. taking glee in someone's agony is no liberal value. .

I say we should believe in redemption for all, even if we are not religious. Someone Redeming their life can be a humanistic value too. If we want to believe all people can be good and change their ways; forgiveness is a liberal value we should attempt to practice.
We hate it when right wingers celebrate our losses; we certainly do not want to follow their lead. Just because we think someone's lifes work a sham , does not mean we should celebrate someone's death. It's not very liberal of us.

[malaise]

152. Question!

If Bush or Cheney end up weighing 65 lbs with terminal cancer and claim to have made peace with their god, am I expected to forget all the evil they committed against humanity?

I shook whem I saw Tammy Fay on Larry King and wished her a speedy end because she was suffering, but please don't expect me to call her a good woman.

[Raejeanowl]

243. A Little Bit of a Stretch

I don't know but suspect you could say she helped PTL bilk people out of millions in the name of their faith, and took enormous personal profit from it. That's the max possibility, and as reprehensible as that is, I personally can't feature comparing it to the B/C atrocities. I don't know how you ever redeem yourself from mass murder or high treason, and Messner never committed either as far as I know. Not even in the same ball park.

Let's go for stupid and weak. You could argue that she knew nothing about the business end of things and was one of those Christians who rightly or wrongly believed that God wanted her to be rich/live in abundance. She could have just been guilty of being human and rationalized on overdrive when the money started pouring in. Love that mink.

But as for the "act" she maintained the last couple of decades, I don't see how continuing to talk about her God and faith and trying to be of comfort and counsel to people was an extension of (her) evil. It's likely she sincerely believed. If it was a con, she touched a lot of people with the con. She apparently still made enough to keep her in makeup, but nothing like before. What con was she working when she made her last appearance? What was her profit motive in saying she knew she was going straight to Heaven? I think she wanted to serve up her last energies to inspire someone, and that it took phenomenal courage. Did this prove her to be a (still) BAD woman?

I hated Nixon. Despised the man and everything he represented to me. But when I saw him sobbing at the graveside of his wife Pat, it touched me deeply. Made ME cry. I knew I could at least say he loved her and he grieved for her and possibly regretted the suffering he caused her; a conclusion bolstered when he followed her not long after. It didn't make him a "good" man. It didn't make Watergate and his unethical, paranoid, criminal presidency un-happen. It made him human and it showed me something "good" about him.

[stray cat]

161. Agreed - particularly if anyone professes to be anti-death penalty

[evilkumquat]

205. Liberal and Karmic Satisfaction Not Mutually Exclusive

I do not see why one cannot be liberal and yet still get a sense of satisfaction that one who deserved punishment got some.

Call it "grave dancing" or "pissing on graves"... I see it as someone getting what was coming to them.

As an atheist, I do not have the "comfort" of believing that those who escape earthly punishment will suffer in the next life.

This is the only life we get and I tend to get a bit irritated when people who deserve to get spanked are able to weasel out of it due to their fame, wealth or connections.

The ex-Mrs. Bakker got away with fleecing thousands of people, many losing their life-savings to her and her snake-charming ex-husband. Many of those people were cancer-sufferers like her who did not have the benefit of squirreling enough money away to pay for expensive treatments.

Being liberal does not mean forgiving criminals their crimes. Rest assured: she may have never been convicted of anything, but Tammy Faye was guilty.

Evil Kumquat

[krispos42]

153. I'm curiously unemotional about this

Maybe I'm too young (I'm 31), but I missed the entire televangelist thing. My parents were and are non-religious and generally hung out with similar-minded people, so I missed the whole thing, I think.

Until I moved to my current location and found Air America Minnesota and the DU, I was not heavily involved in politics, and the only references to Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker were their parodies and such in the "Bloom County" collections that I read obsessively as a teenager.

I know I'm suppose to 'hate her' on one level or another for aiding and abetting the rise of the neocon movement, and let's face it, I'm not real enthralled with her for that. However, I don't hate her, I dislike her. I reserve my hate for people such as Fred Phelps, who, unfortunately, will probably die quickly and relatively painlessly, either some sort of heart failure or stroke, or the grieving relatives and/or comrades of a fallen soldier will simply gun him down in the street like the rabid dog that he is.



I do wonder, however, how the fundies will explain away the extreme painfullness of her death for someone that had worked so hard doing God's Will.

[cyclezealot]

156. I thought the televangelist such con artists,

I pretty much intentionally ignored it. Even tho I lived through it. I think dislike is sufficient for con artists such as the Baker's . I think it is still ok to be critical of Jim Baker, but why is it necessary to cross over to hate. Say, yes, I can say I hate BUsh for all the damage he has done to the country , the wasted lives. The lies. Still, it's best to keep such strong dislike inside. It only makes us look like them. History will be cruel to GW. He will not have the popularity of Say Bill Clinton . Can Bush again re -make himself.It will just be another lie.
Still to take glee when someone dies so tragically. It's not something to be proud of. Let's keep our criticisms a learning experience for the rest of society instead of letting others think we hate, as we say right wingers do.

[Cant trust em]

154. Anonymity of the blogosphere

The funny thing about putting your thoughts out on the internet without having to track them back to your name is that it allows us to say whatever we want about whomever we want and get away with being quite vile. We can be as closed minded, bigoted, and as downright rude as we want. I've seen a lot of things said on this chat board that people would never have the guts to say to another person in their physical presence.

[Kingshakabobo]

158. I agree. These threads alway morph in to a Stanford Prison Experiment for some people. n/t

[Control-Z]

155. I can't celebrate

anyone's death.

[PurpleChez]

160. Actually, the only piece I've read here about Tammy Faye

was from Nance Greggs and was actually very positive and uplifting. I couldn't fault anyone for dancing on Jerry Fartwell's grave, but otherwise I'm with you. Also, even though I am not a Christian I cannot abide the way that some here will make sweeping generalizations about "all Christians," while similar statements about "all Jews" or "all Mexicans" would be all but unthinkable. I'm glad that I haven't read any of the posts you refer to.

[Bluebear]

163. The offending posts were removed. Also, which posts say "all Christians do this or that"?

'while similar statements about "all Jews" or "all Mexicans" would be all but unthinkable.' . . . .

So, we are pro-Mexican Jew and anti-Christian?

[PurpleChez]

171. Some posters (by no means all) want to equate all Christians with Fred Phelps

or Pat Robertson. I cannot cite links -- and I know that's "strike one" -- but I have participated in numerous threads in which even the most progressive Christian sentiment was greeted with howls of "Cosmic Sky Daddy!", "Superstitious Children!" and whatnot. SOME posters feel no qualms about expressing very stereotyped attitudes toward Christians, even though I suspect that they would object strenuously (as would I) if another poster expressed similarly stereotyped views of other religions or cultures. I am confident that if it were an element of Islam or Judaism that they disagreed with they would express their disagreement differently, even respectfully, rather than simply insulting the intellect of all Jews or Muslims. I got into a friendly discussion once with someone who was getting pretty nasty with another poster because of his/her belief in the "cosmic sky daddy" (in fact, that was where I first read that phrase), but whose avatar was Al Gore -- a man who, at last report, also believed in the Cosmic Sky Daddy.

I'm not sure I follow "So, we are pro-Mexican Jew and anti-Christian?" -- nowhere did I say that "we" (the DU community in general) are anti-Christian. It's a big group, with people of many faiths and philosophies, and is generally a very welcoming, supportive bunch. (I also said nothing about "Mexican Jews" -- you can disagree with me, but don't misquote me, especially not for "laughs".) But there is a minority that is much more tolerant of anti-Christian stereotypes than they are of other biases, and some will go so far as to defend or justify the double standard by invoking Phelps, Falwell, etc. As I said, I am not even a Christian, let alone a Christian apologist, but this hypocrisy still irks me.

[Bluebear]

174. 'you can disagree with me, but don't misquote me, especially not for "laughs".'

I bet you're lots of fun at parties.

Pardon me for trying to keep the conversation light and not getting into a big spar. Thanks for writing back, seeya.

[PurpleChez]

180. I'm no fun at parties, believe me.

I'm sorry if I over-reacted, but the "Mexican Jew" thing sounded more mocking than light to me. I know the subtleties of such things don't always come through in print.

[Bluebear]

185. Peace, purple chez

No offense intended. :toast:

[PurpleChez]

194. None taken. And that cyber-beer looks tasty!

If I didn't live in a state run by Baptists I could run out and get a real one! (I hope the hypocrisy of my anti-baptist remark isn't lost! Nobody's perfect.)

BTW...is there a cheat sheet somewhere that gives the codes for the special smilies (like your beer deal and the dripping-with-sarcasm ones? Good to hear from you.

[Bluebear]

239. Right above...........THIS word

is a "Smilies lookup table". Click it and you will see the cheat sheet!

[PurpleChez]

244. For me, the author's profile is right above "THIS," but thanks

for labeling what I need to search for. That'll help.

[LWolf]

164. I do not take pleasure in the suffering of anyone,

or any living thing, for that matter. I have empathy for all.

I have never been a fan of Tammy Faye Baker. I remember her well from my late teens and early 20s, (70s-80s)when a family connection had her and Jim on the tv all the time. When that family connection was no more, I put tv evangelists on "ignore," and haven't really paid attention since.

I can't say anything positive or constructive about their, or her, "ministry," but I have compassion for her suffering.

Is that good enough for you, or would you like me to suffer a little in penance?

[Bluebear]

165. Maybe you didn't know of her work for HIV/AIDS, maybe you did, but just in case:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1399170

[LWolf]

177. I didn't know about any of her work.

I avoid ALL tv news, talk shows, etc. on principle, and televangilists and their work, drama, and scandal like the plague.

As a matter of fact, the Bakkers and the "700 club" were my first, and last, introduction to televangelists. I really did put them on "ignore." Other than seeing a few headlines about jail, I have no idea what this woman and her ex husband did, or didn't do.

I don't hate her. I don't hate, on principle. I don't now, and never did, wish her, or any other living thing, suffering.

If she did some worthy work with her life, I'm happy to honor that.

I'm glad to say that about anyone. I don't have to "like" them or agree with them. That's empathy, compassion, and a sense of humanity to me.

It seems like the death of Tammy Faye has brought out the worst in people, if the OP feels the need to lecture on hate. That's the thing, isn't it?

We all carry the worst of what people are capable of, as well as the best. It seems like our culture is evolving towards glorifying the worst, rather than the best.

If Tammy Faye figured out how to love her enemies, she's done better than most of DU. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[quiet.american]

169. Yes. I've got a whole new bunch of folks on ignore based on their comments about Tammy Faye.

Mean-spritedness is mean-spiritedness no matter whether it's here or on FR. I can't stand Tony Snow and can't pretend to care about his well-being, but even if he should succumb, I would refrain from posting rather than kick a dead man.

[NoFederales]

172. DU seems to be a microcosm of our culture in general--gifted, not gifted, sensitive, &

not sensitive, careful, and careless....Look at the taunting that some posters get at DU, and with few exceptions I doubt that we know one another beyond the superficial scribbling we do to be part of a greater whole. All of us hurt, and hope for the best. Some of us hurt others purposefully for insensitive reasons, who knows the motivation?

It is shameful to mock and deride those we do not like, or blame for willful acts, or simply hate because "those" people/persons become pawns in awful circumstances. I am guilty too often for intolerance, but I am learning, and so cyboy4, I understand your grief and ask that you give us cretins more time to change. And reminders like yours help greatly.

NoFederales

[treestar]

173. This again?

Just because she died doesn't mean people can't hate what she did.

It is even possible to feel sorry for her and hate what she did.

What does it take? Dick Cheney. When he dies, can we mention how we hate what he did without this accusation of lack of compassion?

[populistdriven]

175. Once you have shed as many tears for EACH of the million Iraqi dead by YOUR govt

I am sorry when anyone dies. But I maintain a sense of proportion with my sympathy. People can have whatever opinion of her they like. My sorrow is certainly not great enough to afford myself feeling righteousness.

So shed as many tears for each one of the one Million Iraqi's whose deaths were paid for by YOUR taxes. Remember most of whom were kids or barely adults. Then I will afford you the PRIVILEGE of respecting your righteousness.

[mistertrickster]

176. Oh, boo hoo. This is total flame-bait. Meanwhile, our democratic country

continues to engage in WAR CRIMES in Iraq.

Oh wait.

It's only war crimes when the other side does it . . .

[Kajsa]

231. What a tool!

N/t

[mistertrickster]

237. That's what SHE said. nt

[libodem]

178. Grave dancing is unattractive under any circumstances

It makes us all look bad. When I was a kid my dad was one of the few atheists in town. I was smarting off about God or Religion, thinking he would think I was smart. He told me never to be sacrilegious. I didn't even know what it meant. He had to explain to me about respect for the divine. Somethings are sacred. We can act like grown-ups and treat death with dignity. She is free from her suffering.

[Unca Jim]

179. It's sad but true...human nature is human nature.

I've been reading DU for a long while, and recently started posting on subjects I wanted to discuss with people. There are a lot of decent, thoughtful people on DU, and I've enjoyed conversing with them.

I have also met some of the biggest a$$holes I have ever run across. These people, when protected by their Internet anonymity and Chad-Castagana-like certainty and righteousness, bare the hate-ravaged cesspools of their true selves at the drop of a hat. They are the ones on the Internet 24/7 and they are the ones who control the discourse around here. I decided I should spend my writing time elsewhere, but I still lurk and enjoy the good stuff when it filters through.

My experiences in life have taught me a lot about dealing with peoples' ugly side. Just because the wingers, fundies and other a$$wipes like them are always terrible to anyone they disagree with and treat us like sub-human garbage is not an excuse to return that treatment. I agree we shouldn't treat people who clearly don't view us as equal human beings as rational. I agree we shouldn't expect any kind of sane discourse from them. I further agree we shouldn't waste our time talking with them, and should oppose them at every turn.

But opposing them can't be just echoing back their sad, stunted hate. Unless we win by *actually making the world a better place* instead of just hating the right more than they hate us, what the hell are we winning?

WE ARE NOT INHERENTLY BETTER THAN THEM. THEY ARE PEOPLE, JUST LIKE US, who have good and bad natures and who are trying to make sense of the confusing world around them. It is human nature to externalize the things we don't like about ourselves onto other people and then punish and dehumanize the other people. We've been doing it for a long time. Let's just freakin' grow up a little and realize that WE ARE THEM.

Good Lord, people! Gandhi liberated a country with this simple truth. It has nothing to do with politeness or basic human compassion or decency, which I know mean nothing to many people here because they smack of religion, but instead with actually making progress instead of just keeping the hate burning.

Of course, feel free to withhold your forgiveness and stay righteous and pure in your fortress of flawless certitude as you see fit. One day when you need forgiveness, let's hope other people will be a little more understanding of you -and a little more honest with themselves.

Everyone is the a$$hole sometimes; everyone is the one causing the problem sometimes. It's time we were thankful for those times when people make an effort to make the world a better place.

[Jed Dilligan]

181. The world would be a much better place

if the evangelicals had ended up following her and Jim instead of Falwell and Robertson.

I felt nothing for Falwell's death--assholes die and more crop up every day. :shrug: But I'm sad to see Tammy Faye go in such a horrible way.

[The_Casual_Observer]

182. I care about as much about that persons death than she would about

my own. Celebrity has it's down side too.

[paparush]

183. We all die. Some of us die quietly.

[lies and propaganda]

186. This needed to be said.

And you said it well my friend.

[kikiek]

187. I liked her. I thought she was genuine. She made mistakes, but we all do.

It is odd to me how mean spirited "liberals" can be about people we really know nothing about, and with each other.

[skepticscott]

198. Mistakes?

What she and her husband did was far, FAR beyond anything that a reasonable person could call a "mistake". They engaged in a deliberate, organized effort to bilk people out of their money that lasted over many years, and never showed even a twinge of remorse until after they were caught and exposed. How is that a "mistake"? I can't speak for you, but it's certainly not like any of the mistakes I or anyone I know have ever made

[kikiek]

206. I liked her. You didn't. You call me unreasonable because I voiced an opinion not

like your own. I don't care.

[skepticscott]

207. Not at all

I called you unreasonable because you voiced an opinion that is unsupported, namely that you argue her behavior should be excused because we all make mistakes, but have no answer for my question:

How is it a "mistake" to engage in a deliberate, organized effort to bilk people out of their money that lasted over many years, and never show even a twinge of remorse until after you are caught and exposed?

And obviously you care, or you wouldn't have responded.

[colorado_ufo]

191. It is fear.

Dear cboy4,

I think that people, deep down, say these terrible things out of fear. What would they have done? How could they have handled this pain, this error, this mistake, this responsibility? Could they have borne the suffering? By making themselves seem superior, they bury their deep-seated inferiority feelings.

Thank you for writing a great post.

[Madspirit]

192. k&r My Friend...n/t

[Bluebear]

193. 118 recs so far, my friend. Well done. nt

[Toucano]

196. You should always speak nice of the dead.

Tammy Faye is dead. How nice!

It is INSANE how Americans have turned a greedy charlatan and fraud into an folk heroine.

She and her husband STOLE MONEY from gullible, desperate, hopeful people to finance a grotesque lavish lifestyle. All in the name of Jesus Christ. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.

There's a special ward in hell awaiting her.

As for your exhausted supply of tears, maybe there are some of Tammy Faye's crocodile ones left on the floor of a television studio somewhere to help you out. For chrissake!

[file83]

212. ...

:popcorn:

[Kajsa]

233. Unbelievably crass!

You must get off on this.

[jeff30997]

197. Some peoples were happy about Steve Irwin's death ?

Wow! Unfuckingbelievable!

[nam78_two]

199. K&R.nt

[Raejeanowl]

201. Sickness

Some people succumb to cancer of the spirit, and die a living death from which there is no hope of resurrection.

[Greylyn58]

204. Like you, I'm horrified by some of the comments

I've read here. Good people don't make nasty comments like those I have read.

Cancer is a cruel, terrible disease and no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have to suffer and die because of it. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Until you've seen its effect on someone you love, maybe some DUer's can't understand. My mom was diagnosed with stage II Breast Cancer and while she was lucky that it was caught early and the tumor was removed through a lumpectomy, she had to endure the chemo(which made her very sick and her hair fall out) and the radiation. Also 5 years of the drug Tamoxifin. She's also had to suffer through the side effects of having all of the lymph-nodes removed from one arm and from one breast. Thankfully she has been cancer free since then. (now 7 years).

Yes, we have lived through 6 years of Hell, but please don't let what they have done to us take away our humanity, our empathy, our ability to feel another's pain. Otherwise, we are no different from the Republicans and we will be truly lost.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

215. Cancer research

I don't believe anyone on this thread is glad there is such a terrible disease as cancer and that they are glad Tammy Faye suffered so awfully and died from it. I thought she was a nicer person in her later years but what a nasty piece of work she used to be. I remember thinking and the time of their crimes, how greedy and selfish they were with all of that money. I remember thinking at the time that if I had that much money I'd sure put it into cancer research! I remember they were just being so silly and showing off the money they got in such an underhanded way. For the record; I'm not glad Tammy Faye is dead nor am I glad she suffered.

[GenDem]

213. Thanks, cboy4

You said it all.

I am shocked and horrified by the hate filled comments.

[Kajsa]

216. You forgot one, Cboy,

It's alright to sell cockfighting magazines through the largest
online retailer- nevermind the torture and death of animals or
the fact that it's in violation of Fed. law!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1387562

First Amendment free speech is being violated!-

BULL- it's about not selling magazines promoting animal cruelty and death!
Somehow, THAT got totally lost in the bullshit censorship argument!!
I felt like I was besieged by Freepers. They sidetrack the argument to something
that isn't the issue . There is no censorship! Selling animal fighting magazines
is against the law!

I too am so sad to see Tammy Faye gone.
She was a good lady.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1399913&mesg_id=1400958

Yes, PLEASE tell me these people are trolls,
Please tell me they have their heads in dark spaces.

Please tell me this cruelty and borderline sadism that celebrates the pain and suffering of others
is not coming from Democrats!

Thank you, Cboy. I can't recommend this thread enough.

:hug:

[Divine Discontent]

217. it's AMAZIN' stuff like THIS that make me just adore my DU quasi-BF

I LOVE THE OP'S EMOTION - HE'S GOT HEART

so here's a bunch from ME...

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[cboy4]

253. Blush!!

:blush:

[enigmatic]

219. I've posted about meeting Tammy Faye before

And I want to post it again:

I was working as a Banquet Captain at a hotel in Phoenix, and Tammy Faye was in town to open a brand-new swap meet (I know, I know; hey, it's Phoenix!). We had a room set up for a Press Conference she was going to do for "The Eyes Of Tammy Faye" for the local TV stations, and I and a co-worker got to escort her around the property and make sure she was taken care of.

I couldn't believe how tiny she was; really tiny. And beneath the make-up, she was actually quite pretty. My co-worker loved Tammy Faye, and when we went to pick her up and take her back to the hotel they both got along famously, sounding like (slightly raunchy) old friends in the van; it was hilarious to listen to.

She was incredibly nice to us and everybody else she came in contact that day in the hotel, and I got my own hug and peck on the cheek at the end of her stay. My co-worker did too, and they were both crying (and laughing; he was 6'4 and towered over her) as they said good-bye. it actually choked me up, too.

I emailed him when I heard the news about her death yesterday and he was in tears; so was I.

Safe Passage, Tammy Faye.

[Sam Ervin jret]

221. to all who feel right to their emotions whatever they be.....

You do not need to feel quilt to you human reaction to your first response to the death of someone who you have been told has caused pain. It is a normal feeling of justice being served in a world that seems hungry for it. It is not anyone who has ever been alive ( save one some people say) that has not felt such things. Your actions afterwords are yours to deal with. I ask not my usual constitutional question as is my custom, but ask only that he/she who is with out sin throw the first stone. You would "ignore", one of your own community for what hr SAYS on a forum that is dedicated to open speech. Hypocrisy follows and shadows us all. Forgiveness and communication are the tools we use to fight the darker parts of our humanity of.

[zehnkatzen]

222. I certainly didn't dance on her grave...but my reply was deleted anyway

...but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I did not regret the passing of Tammy Faye.

Yes, I recognize that, in the persona of her later life, she served as an inspiration to quite a few people. Yes, she was funny as hell–I watched her play Mimi's mother on Drew Carey and couldn't believe how funny that was.

Yes, she was charming and warm and very human.

Yes, dying from cancer is tragic and painful and a waste (I shouldn't have to go out of my way to say that, but it seems that in the views of some unless you mourn her passing you're saying it's okay for her and others to suffer and die from cancer, and nothing could be further from the truth). At 65, if all else was equal, she'd obviously had a few more magnificent years left in her.

And the last part of her life, lived in tolerance and acceptance, was to her extreme credit.

However.

Back in the 1970's and 1980's, she participated in the empowerment of a movement–the modern ultraconservative televangelist–that energized the core of the religious right, that group of people we now must respect and defer to even though they don't deserve it, and who have done as much to damage America and turn religion in general into a temporal-power-drunk monster as any other unhealthy trend in American life.

Regardless of how innocent she seemed, I feel she was culpable. I feel no effective or sincere reply to that was ever made by her.

But I don't have any beef with anyone who mourns her passing.

I do have a bit of a beef with the way my original comment was deleted on the original thread, especially when truly foul, crass replies were allowed to (and still do) stand. My original reply strove to be civil and thoughtful, and contained not one swear word, not one rant, not one pejorative. I call unfair on that. If my original reply was deleted, then all such replies should be. Fair is fair.

Nobody needs my permission to mourn the passing of Tammy Faye. I should need no permission to post a contrary view. Else, and seriously, please make some mention next time that even thoughtful replies stand to be deleted, and I promise I'll stay away from the thread

[LynneSin]

223. This is NOT a Jerry Falwell who passed away

yes, Tammy Faye was a part of that crowd and yes, her ministries bilked thousands of people of their life earnings. But I truly believe that Tammy Faye has tried her best to make ammends for the sins she committed. In the later years, after she divorced Jim Bakker, another woman appeared. A woman who knew that she could embrace Christianity and still be open to all sorts of people. The best example was the friendship she established with legendary porn start Ron Jeremy, whom she becamse lifetime friends after being on Surreal Life together. She was also a friend to the GBLT community - something you never EVER saw from Jerry Falwell.

She was one of the good ones and I'm glad that I learned more about what a great woman this gal really was.


God Speed Tammy Faye!

[happy5]

224. C´mon...

I am saddened that her family has to suffer, like all others, but she got very rich by scamming a lot of people. Sure she had grace and style, because she could afford it.

Also, Larry King is a scumbag. I understand the women wanted to go on the news, for whatever reason, before dying, but this was a bit too much. Showing her weighing all of 65 pounds was heartbreaking.

[greyghost]

228. Larry King is the definition of scumbag...

unfortunately he'll be on CNN until his belated demise.

[lala_rawraw]

225. i don't understand the context... was someone celebrating

this tragedy?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

226. very familiar with cancer

I just wish we could find a cure

[Pab Sungenis]

227. I've been too busy to comment.

Tammy Faye was always a class act, a true Christian in every sense of the word. She overcame a lot of the prejudices she had been taught, and was a wonderful woman in her post-PTL days.

Her suffering is over. Requiescat in pace.

We will miss you.

[lefador]

230. I disagree, I don't care about her personally...

But she is the embodiment that money can't certainly buy class.

So it all comes down to this, she married a charlatan who stole other people's money.

She is dead now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

229. thank you -- a great post

[qb]

234. Thank you cboy

I remember the PTL scandal, but did not know much about Tammy Faye until I came out last May and read about her on a gay dating site. I cried and sent her a thank you note.

[chknltl]

235. Perhaps Molly Ivins was there to greet Tammy Faye

I of course can not know this but if that did indeed happen, I am quite sure some of my fellow DUers would be hard pressed to understand why. It appears nobody here can explain it to them either. R.I.P Tammy Faye. i add my recommendation to this thread.

[Eurobabe]

242. Cancer is an evil, horrific disease, we lost my husband's dad

to mesothelioma (asbestos in the lung) it was awful.

[ray of light]

245. I didn't watch DU that day but i agree with you 100%.

[Raine]

246. THANKS for your sensitive post

I loved Tammy Faye and it saddens me immensely to see how cruel some of my fellow DUers are. :cry:

[cynatnite]

247. She carried herself with dignity.

RIP Tammy.

[cynatnite]

248. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

249. It is a shame

that you have to say it, but it is true. I left this message board for that very reason. The utter hypocrisy and propensity towards as much cruelty as on the other side.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

250. I don't wish death on her, but I'm far from a fan.

Anything she did with gay youth could merely bring her back to normal respectability. Her days as a deliberate evangelical conwoman put her very, very deep in a hole indeed.

[ellisonz]

251. Gravedancing is a time honored tradition.